Moyes So Far!

[#07]

We've always been a time that likes using the wings, but never to this extent. Even last year our game had much more variety to it, it was also due to Carrick having an excellent season and being able to find some good solutions through the middle from CM.

There is zero chance of something like this being repeated again this season:


As Fletcher has told us, the job of our midfield is not to get forward. Attacking down the centre is banned. Our midfield is in the side to get it wide. End.

 

[Spider]

 

[Shark]

Squad needs a BIG REBUILD we all know this. However do we trust Moyes to spend the money wisely (if available).
I am not even sure he would get rid of the players who clearly need to go, simply because he keeps playing them.
We should have hung on to Zaha, just made no sense to loan him out. Especially when Valencia and Young keep playing.
Some baffling team and general decisions which simply reek of someone or indeed a few people not having a clue.

He won't go this season in my opinion, but he never was and never will be the man for the job, he clearly does not motivate the team, this added to the above means a season of nothing. Then difficulty in attracting the top players with the lack of European football.

This is another problem that I have. There's every chance that Kagawa and Nani could be heading out the door and Valencia and Young will stay. If that does happen, it doesn't necessarily give me the impression that he's trying to move away from predicable wing play.

 

[MoneyMay]

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There is zero chance of something like this being repeated again this season:


As Fletcher has told us, the job of our midfield is not to get forward. Attacking down the centre is banned. Our midfield is in the side to get it wide. End.

You are aware that Fletcher was talking about "the last few years", not specifically about his brief from moyes?

 

[Member 39557]

I don't understand why he signed Mata if he's going to shove him on the wing. What was the point?
Why do we change our defence every single game?


I'd like to see us line-up with Carrick and Fletcher/Fellaini behind Mata, Rooney and Kagawa with RVP up front.
Our current system isn't working, why not utilise the players in a different formation and use playmakers in their intended roles instead of out on the wing?

I've sat on the fence until now, but I'm starting to think that Moyes needs to go.

 

[Brophs]

You are aware that Fletcher was talking about "the last few years", not specifically about his brief from moyes?

It's getting really odd. So many of the things he's been hung for are no different than in the Fergie era. A reliance on wingers (though probably not to the same extent), not using Kagawa properly, not playing Nani, lack of strength in midfield. That's not to say that some of these things shouldn't be sorted, but you'd swear this was brand new stuff.

 

[Kostur]

I don't understand why he signed Mata if he's going to shove him on the wing. What was the point?
Why do we change our defence every single game?


I'd like to see us line-up with Carrick and Fletcher/Fellaini behind Mata, Rooney and Kagawa with RVP up front.
Our current system isn't working, why not utilise the players in a different formation and use playmakers in their intended roles instead of out on the wing?

I've sat on the fence until now, but I'm starting to think that Moyes needs to go.

I don't think that Mata is 'shoved on the wing' to be fair, far from it, nominally, he might be placed there in a line up but reality is different. He's interchanged with Rooney plenty of times in the first half, you'd see Rooney on the right ( and not exactly wing, you can check heatmaps to see that Mata and Young are far more inwards compared to Evra and Rafael ) and Mata in the middle or Mata on the left if he feels like it.

Not to mention that Rooney was put into CM position around 60th minute anyway and Mata took the #10.

 

[Plugsy]

I don't understand why he signed Mata if he's going to shove him on the wing. What was the point?
Why do we change our defence every single game?


I'd like to see us line-up with Carrick and Fletcher/Fellaini behind Mata, Rooney and Kagawa with RVP up front.
Our current system isn't working, why not utilise the players in a different formation and use playmakers in their intended roles instead of out on the wing?

I've sat on the fence until now, but I'm starting to think that Moyes needs to go.

The Mata thing annoys me as does his constantly speaking of future signings and summer spending, as if it'll make any difference.

It's as if he's a builder with no idea how to build a house who allays fears by saying "don't worry, I'm soon getting better quality bricks". It'll make no difference whatsoever. Any manager that has RVP, Rooney, Mata, Januzaj, Carrick and to a lesser extent Kagawa - all available to him, yet clearly instructs his team to do nothing but cross the ball, is justifiably being questioned.

 

[Member 39557]

It's getting really odd. So many of the things he's been hung for are no different than in the Fergie era. A reliance on wingers (though probably not to the same extent), not using Kagawa properly, not playing Nani, lack of strength in midfield. That's not to say that some of these things shouldn't be sorted, but you'd swear this was brand new stuff.

The problem is that Fergie's teams looked inept at times, yet still managed to win. Nowadays we look inept every week and struggle to win.

I think Kagawa would have played more under Fergie if he hadn't got injured, and Nani has always been a bit too inconsistent to play every week.

 

[Getsme]

I honestly never thought we wouldn't get fourth. Now it's happened I still can't quite believe it.

 

[Member 39557]

I don't think that Mata is 'shoved on the wing' to be fair, far from it, nominally, he might be placed there in a line up but reality is different. He's interchanged with Rooney plenty of times in the first half, you'd see Rooney on the right ( and not exactly wing, you can check heatmaps to see that Mata and Young are far more inwards compared to Evra and Rafael ) and Mata in the middle or Mata on the left if he feels like it.

Not to mention that Rooney was put into CM position around 60th minute anyway and Mata took the #10.

You're right, but it unbalances the team. I also don't know why he dropped Rooney back when we were chasing the game. Put Mata in the middle by all means, but why sacrifice Rooney for him when we need a goal?

We scored, so Moyes might feel justified but I think it was more by luck than judgement.

 

[Adebesi]

It's getting really odd. So many of the things he's been hung for are no different than in the Fergie era. A reliance on wingers (though probably not to the same extent), not using Kagawa properly, not playing Nani, lack of strength in midfield. That's not to say that some of these things shouldn't be sorted, but you'd swear this was brand new stuff.

Its the "caricature of a SAF team" thing Pogue said recently, that is so true. Its not that they are new, it is that a change of manager seemed like the moment these things would change but instead he has doubled down on them. So you end up with the worst bits of the SAF era but without the wins, the worst of both worlds. Im sure itll change eventually, if he is given time to show it that is, but I think people just wanted change quicker.

 

[#07]

You are aware that Fletcher was talking about "the last few years", not specifically about his brief from moyes?

You will note that run from Carrick happened under Fergie. You will also note that we crossed less under Fergie and made more central attacks under Fergie. We have always used width but never to this extent, even when we had Becks. People forget Yorkie got the same number of assists Becks did when we won the treble, for example. Moyes' tactics emphasise certain aspects of Fergie's to the extent that we look one dimensional. Even Big Sam's team isn't pumping the ball in as much as we are. Even Big Sam...

 

[Shark]

I honestly never thought we wouldn't get fourth. Now it's happened I still can't quite believe it.

We've gone from pretty much matching Madrid all of the way in the last 16 of the CL, just last season, to possibly finishing 7th behind fecking Spurs, Liverpool and Everton. Talk about a complete and utter decline.

 

[Plugsy]

We've gone from pretty much matching Madrid all of the way in the last 16 of the CL, just last season, to possibly finishing 7th behind fecking Spurs, Liverpool and Everton. Talk about a complete and utter decline.

And the way people speak of the "issues" we have as a team annoys me. Every club could do with a patch-up here and there, we're no different. There are no issues we have that couldn't and shouldn't have been identified within a week of him finding out he got the job. We really didn't need to get to after two transfer windows for him to conclude that Vidic is injury ravaged, Evra is declining and we need a couple of new players in central midfield.

He had the time and the budget to do all of that. Even if he couldn't he still has the side that won the league at a canter last season, minus bit-part-player Scholes. That's without even mentioning his two big money signings (not played very much yet but indications are even when they do it makes no difference) and benefiting from one of the top young talents in the country.

 

[Kostur]

You're right, but it unbalances the team. I also don't know why he dropped Rooney back when we were chasing the game. Put Mata in the middle by all means, but why sacrifice Rooney for him when we need a goal?

We scored, so Moyes might feel justified but I think it was more by luck than judgement.

To be fair, Rooney was pretty shit yesterday if you ask me, especially in the first half. Plenty of times the crosses were actually half decent and on the ground, all you had to do is have somebody around 8th yard to bag it in and neither RVP nor Rooney were there, even Young created two good chances when he played it back from the end-line with a header, it got past the keeper but there was literally nobody to finish it off.

When Rooney got dropped into midfield, I actually hoped we'd thread one or two good plays through the middle - but we didn't, he still sprayed it on the wings and we continued this utter shite. If he insisted of playing Rooney where he played him in the first half it would've been even more imbalanced imo, especially when we've tossed Chicharito in.

And well, if we want to keep Mata in the #10, it means that either Rooney or RVP has to feck off, from those two, I know which one I'd rather have at #9. I guess that neither of them would be content starting on the 'wing'. Feels like Kagawa debate all over.

 

[Member 39557]

To be fair, Rooney was pretty shit yesterday if you ask me, especially in the first half. Plenty of times the crosses were actually half decent and on the ground, all you had to do is have somebody around 8th yard to bag it in and neither RVP nor Rooney were there, even Young created two good chances when he played it back from the end-line with a header, it got past the keeper but there was literally nobody to finish it off.

When Rooney got dropped into midfield, I actually hoped we'd thread one or two good plays through the middle - but we didn't, he still sprayed it on the wings and we continued this utter shite. If he insisted of playing Rooney where he played him in the first half it would've been even more imbalanced imo, especially when we've tossed Chicharito in.

And well, if we want to keep Mata in the #10, it means that either Rooney or RVP has to feck off, from those two, I know which one I'd rather have at #9. I guess that neither of them would be content starting on the 'wing'. Feels like Kagawa debate all over.

Indeed. If he isn't going to drop RVP or Rooney, then change the formation and try and make the best out of the players we have. That's why I was thinking of using Mata, Kagawa and Rooney behind RVP with two others anchoring the midfield. You could even swap Mata, Kagawa or Rooney for the likes of Nani or Januzaj if you needed a dribbler to help break teams down.

I'd rather see moyes try something different and fail, than stick to slight variations on the same blueprint and repeatedly fail.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

His methods remain bewilderingly predictable. It's the ways in which teams are working out how to foil his efforts that are varying by the week.

United's plan was simple: Spread the play wide. Cross. Retrieve the ball. Spread the play wide. Cross. Repeat.

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11096/9159184/record-breaker

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

Genuine question for those on here are still behind Moyes:
What is it you see in him, or the way we have set about since him joining the club, that makes you think he is the right man?

Tricky to answer, especially when most of my faith in him has depleted after yesterday, but I'm still routing for him.

I don't think I can answer that question without people thinking I'm a moron, although I'm sure some people might think that considering I'm still behind Moyes This was always going to be a difficult season - anyone who actually thought we'd challenge for the title needed their heads checked back in August. Admittedly, I didn't expect us to do this poorly - I anticipated a tighter challenge for fourth/third place. Then again, I didn't really expect Arsenal or Liverpool or Tottenham to secure the results they've had this season.

I don't understand Moyes' current tactics, and his media-work definitely need a "confidence" injection - but I think he'll turn it around for us. It may be too late in the season for it to challenge for the top 4, but with all this pressure off us now to make 4th place I think he'll perform a bit of trial-and-error.

I don't know whether he is the right man, but I'm in the minority I know that believes he should at least get until the end of the season. We're still in the CL after all so it's not as if we have absolutely feck all to play for.

If we end the season the way we're performing now, then I may see a strong case to sack him. But there's still 13 league games to go and (hopefully) at least 2 CL fixtures to play.

 

[Kostur]

Indeed. If he isn't going to drop RVP or Rooney, then change the formation and try and make the best out of the players we have. That's why I was thinking of using Mata, Kagawa and Rooney behind RVP with two others anchoring the midfield. You could even swap Mata, Kagawa or Rooney for the likes of Nani or Januzaj if you needed a dribbler to help break teams down.

I'd rather see moyes try something different and fail, than stick to slight variations on the same blueprint and repeatedly fail.

Aye, absolutely. I'm worried that he'll stick to our 'tradition' and play like we do though, that's what worries me.

Prior to the match I've read this article somebody posted with PNE and Everton ex players talking about him being innovative, always thinking few steps ahead, not being afraid of trying new things just to see that 'tactic' we've performed against Fulham and I'm seriously puzzled.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Its the "caricature of a SAF team" thing Pogue said recently, that is so true. Its not that they are new, it is that a change of manager seemed like the moment these things would change but instead he has doubled down on them. So you end up with the worst bits of the SAF era but without the wins, the worst of both worlds. Im sure itll change eventually, if he is given time to show it that is, but I think people just wanted change quicker.

It's certainly odd. Although it's also odd for a new manager to take over a team that just won the league by 11 points. As such, you can see the logic in sticking to the team selection and tactics that won us the league last season. The deeper the hole Moyes finds himself in, the more resolutely he is trying to get the team playing like they did under Fergie. Almost to the point of madness.

The whole season has been a perfect storm. The really difficult opening fixtures to shatter the confidence of players and managers alike. The badly timed injuries and loss of form from our best players of last season. The summer transfer window disasters under a newbie CEO. The almost constant unavailability of the only new player we DID sign etc. etc. etc.

Moyes hasn't helped himself with the lack of imagination he's shown in coping with all the shit thrown his way but literally everything that's out of his control that could go wrong has gone wrong and it's clearly messing with the manager's head.

 

[mancan92]

man this is funny. At points we were crossing our own crosses.

 

[Getsme]

Tricky to answer, especially when most of my faith in him has depleted after yesterday, but I'm still routing for him.

I don't think I can answer that question without people thinking I'm a moron, although I'm sure some people might think that considering I'm still behind Moyes This was always going to be a difficult season - anyone who actually thought we'd challenge for the title needed their heads checked back in August. Admittedly, I didn't expect us to do this poorly - I anticipated a tighter challenge for fourth/third place. Then again, I didn't really expect Arsenal or Liverpool or Tottenham to secure the results they've had this season.

I don't understand Moyes' current tactics, and his media-work definitely need a "confidence" injection - but I think he'll turn it around for us. It may be too late in the season for it to challenge for the top 4, but with all this pressure off us now to make 4th place I think he'll perform a bit of trial-and-error.

I don't know whether he is the right man, but I'm in the minority I know that believes he should at least get until the end of the season. We're still in the CL after all so it's not as if we have absolutely feck all to play for.

If we end the season the way we're performing now, then I may see a strong case to sack him. But there's still 13 league games to go and (hopefully) at least 2 CL fixtures to play.

To be fair I applaud your stubbornness in your backing of him.
I've lost faith, I have no idea how he's going to turn it around. I honestly hope he does though, I'd love to be proved wrong but I just can't see it.

 

[#07]

Sky Sports ~ Record Breaker: After Darren Bent's late goal earned a point for bottom team Fulham at Old Trafford and added to the woes of Manchester United boss David Moyes, Adam Bate feels the record number of crosses put it on Sunday reflects the fact that the Scot is failing to adapt to the requirements of the job.

The quotes from Phelan look even worse in black and white than when I heard them spoken:

To say it is disappointing is an understatement. It's devastating more than anything. The variety in their play wasn't there. It was all about crossing the ball. You don't put that many crosses in without thinking to yourself whether there is anything else because that hasn't worked that well. Can you start manipulating the ball? Can you start playing those little give-and-goes to try to make Fulham do something different?--Mike Phelan

The answer to all those questions seems to be, under Moyes, no.

 

[LR7]

It's certainly odd. Although it's also odd for a new manager to take over a team that just won the league by 11 points. As such, you can see the logic in sticking to the team selection and tactics that won us the league last season. The deeper the hole Moyes finds himself in, the more resolutely he is trying to get the team playing like they did under Fergie. Almost to the point of madness.

The whole season has been a perfect storm. The really difficult opening fixtures to shatter the confidence of players and managers alike. The badly timed injuries and loss of form from our best players of last season. The summer transfer window disasters under a newbie CEO. The almost constant unavailability of the only new player we DID sign etc. etc. etc.

Moyes hasn't helped himself with the lack of imagination he's shown in coping with all the shit thrown his way but literally everything that's out of his control that could go wrong has gone wrong and it's clearly messing with the manager's head.

I don't know how many points they won their respective leagues by last season but Bayern München and Barcelona are title winning teams who changed their managers this season too and neither new manager has simply tried to do what was being done before. They've made changes and Bayern have gone up another level this seasons whilst Barcelona are more direct and though their fans don't like it, they're right up thee at the top of the league. It takes some fecking guts to try to improve and change the treble winners but Pep has done because he believes in himself and the way he wants them to play. Going into these big teams, you need that self belief.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Thus isn't FIFA he doesn't sit on the sidelines with a game pad controlling the players. Our players just saw the number of bodies ahead and didn't fancy taking them on.

Although why we didn't just launch it low and hope for an own goal i have no idea. Even shits had a good chance of being deflected in.

Yeah, and Barcelona's players just decided to press like maniacs and play tiki-taka football during an actual game. Guardiola actually sent them out to pass it long.

 

[SteveJ]

Sky Sports ~ Record Breaker: After Darren Bent's late goal earned a point for bottom team Fulham at Old Trafford and added to the woes of Manchester United boss David Moyes, Adam Bate feels the record number of crosses put it on Sunday reflects the fact that the Scot is failing to adapt to the requirements of the job.

The quotes from Phelan look even worse in black and white than when I heard them spoken:



The answer to all those questions seems to be, under Moyes, no.

We're only guessing that Moyes' tactics are the reason for crossmania; instead, I personally think it shows the lack of imagination some of our players unfortunately have.

 

[LR7]

Yeah, and Barcelona's players just decided to press like maniacs and play tiki-taka football during an actual game. Guardiola actually sent them out to pass it long.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't know how many points they won their respective leagues by last season but Bayern München and Barcelona are title winning teams who changed their managers this season too and neither new manager has simply tried to do what was being done before. They've made changes and Bayern have gone up another level this seasons whilst Barcelona are more direct and though their fans don't like it, they're right up thee at the top of the league. It takes some fecking guts to try to improve and change the treble winners but Pep has done because he believes in himself and the way he wants them to play. Going into these big teams, you need that self belief.

Can't say I've watched every game but I've not seen any difference in the style or tactics from Barca and Bayern, this season and last. Other than tweaks to accomodate new signings anyway.

Anyway, you've ignored the main gist of my point. Neither of the two clubs you mention are struggling, so their managers will feel under much less pressure to get the team to revert to type.

 

[Danny1982]

Yeah, and Barcelona's players just decided to press like maniacs and play tiki-taka football during an actual game. Guardiola actually sent them out to pass it long.

This "defend Moyes until he guides us slowly but surely towards relegation" brigade is starting to sound more and more stupid by the day.. I think they're running out of ideas/excuses more than anything else.

 

[pete_8]

This is another problem that I have. There's every chance that Kagawa and Nani could be heading out the door and Valencia and Young will stay. If that does happen, it doesn't necessarily give me the impression that he's trying to move away from predicable wing play.

Lets hope his eyes are wide open and he can see what everyone else can.

 

[EverReddy]

Did anyone else notice that in his post-Fulham interviews he tends to speak of the club as 'they/their' not 'us/our'? As in: "crosses are in their DNA", not "our DNA".

Or am I imagining that? It's certainly the impression I got.

I think that speaks volumes about his mind-set.

 

[#07]

Football 365 ~ There Is No Recovery From This Position

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That's another theme of this season. Crap jokes getting loads of green smilies. I know it's all so painful you're tempted to laugh or cry but redcafe was always one of the wittiest message boards around. Depressing to see standards drop like this.

 

[smallred]

those who think that Moyes will just buy us out of trouble are in for a fair shock...

 

[SteveJ]

Football 365 ~ There Is No Recovery From This Position

F365 must rotate between Stanger, Nicholson and others for their latest anti-Moyes articles...y'know just in case readers start to ask themselves whether the writers are biased.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

F365 must rotate between Stanger, Nicholson and others for their latest anti-Moyes articles...y'know just in case readers start to ask themselves whether the writers are biased.

F365 have given him the roughest time from anywhere I've ever seen on the net. Even when we've played well (Swansea in the league at home) they've said we've struggled to a in.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

We're only guessing that Moyes' tactics are the reason for crossmania; instead, I personally think it shows the lack of imagination some of our players unfortunately have.

That's blinkered thinking when we have three of the most imaginative players in Mata, Rooney and Van Persie.

 

[SteveJ]

F365 have given him the roughest time from anywhere I've ever seen on the net. Even when we've played well (Swansea in the league at home) they've said we've struggled to a in.

Yeah, and this is why I fail to take their articles seriously. Moyes is struggling badly - anyone can see that - and criticism is certainly warranted but F365's policy seems to be: "take the opposite position on whoever mainstream 'papers and sites celebrate or slaughter". So, when people (rightly) complain that Moyes is getting an easy ride in the press, F365 steps up & gives it to him both-barrels.