NBA Thread 2013-2014

Eboue said:
What more was Paul supposed to do? 28 points, 8 assists, 7 rebounds and 4 steals.
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A good stat line, true. But note that I said the choke is "on the way", not necessarily referring to Game 1 (seriously though, how did they lose that one???). More than that though, I just can't shake the feeling that he doesn't have it in him to take teams all the way when it matters. I hope I'm wrong though, because I'm a fan of his. His talent merits either an MVP award or a ring on his CV when it's all said and done.
 
Pacers are picking off where they left off in the regular season. But, they are poor in a different way than they were at the end of the regular season. So far tonight their defense has been much worse than their offense.
 
okLaptop1 said:
A good stat line, true. But note that I said the choke is "on the way", not necessarily referring to Game 1 (seriously though, how did they lose that one???). More than that though, I just can't shake the feeling that he doesn't have it in him to take teams all the way when it matters. I hope I'm wrong though, because I'm a fan of his. His talent merits either an MVP award or a ring on his CV when it's all said and done.
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The Clippers lost because Griffen was in foul trouble for pretty much the whole game, until he fouled out in the last minute (having played only 19 minutes). I think they'll be fine in this series.

Paul had a pretty good game though.

By the way, to your point, here's an interesting piece of debate about Chris Paul superstar status. I guess you're siding with Skip on this one.

 
Danny1982 said:
By the way, to your point, here's an interesting piece of debate about Chris Paul superstar status. I guess you're siding with Skip on this one.

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Skip tends to start off rational in his arguments, before descending into a ridiculously extreme opinion. Chris Paul in my mind is still a superstar, no doubt about it. He just hasn't shown in in the play-offs before, and there's no real evidence yet to suggest that will change this season. People tend to let him off the hook for not delivering in the post season, whereas guys like Melo get slaughtered for it. But Smith is right; any team would take him in a heartbeat.
 
okLaptop1 said:
Skip tends to start off rational in his arguments, before descending into a ridiculously extreme opinion. Chris Paul in my mind is still a superstar, no doubt about it. He just hasn't shown in in the play-offs before, and there's no real evidence yet to suggest that will change this season. People tend to let him off the hook for not delivering in the post season, whereas guys like Melo get slaughtered for it. But Smith is right; any team would take him in a heartbeat.
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Totally agree.

I think he'll do well this year, but will against fall short (only just) to the Thunder, because Durant is just too much, and he's playing like a man possessed this year.
 
Good win by Miami!

It was expected but good to see DWade healthy. Miami need him at least 70% at his best to win the championship.
 
Danny1982 said:
The Clippers lost because Griffen was in foul trouble for pretty much the whole game, until he fouled out in the last minute (having played only 19 minutes). I think they'll be fine in this series.

Paul had a pretty good game though.

By the way, to your point, here's an interesting piece of debate about Chris Paul superstar status. I guess you're siding with Skip on this one.

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CP3's a superstar, but I find it annoying that people thinks he's a top 5 PG of all time when he's done feck all in the post-season. He's rated over Nash, who bought a much weaker Suns to the Western Conference finals, and yet CP3's gets no flak when he hasn't brought playoff success to his team. Swop situations with LeBron and LeBron will be getting crucified all year for his lack of playoff success.
 
elmo said:
CP3's a superstar, but I find it annoying that people thinks he's a top 5 PG of all time when he's done feck all in the post-season. He's rated over Nash, who bought a much weaker Suns to the Western Conference finals, and yet CP3's gets no flak when he hasn't brought playoff success to his team. Swop situations with LeBron and LeBron will be getting crucified all year for his lack of playoff success.
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That's what annoys me most about CP3 fans. He's not better than guys in the past decade like Nash and Kidd, so forget about top 5 of all time.
 
Solid win by the Wiz tonight. Wall was solid; Gortat and Nene were huge up front. Wiz were one of the better road teams this year-so not a complete surprise. Still-very encouraging.
 
Eboue said:
Paul is easily better than both of those guys.
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Not better at running the whole team and making it greater than the sum of its parts, not better at carrying teams through play-off runs. I consider these things greater than talent and skill-set. And even going by talent and skill-set, he isn't "easily" better than both of them anyway.
 
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Look at the system that Paul plays in. With all those athletes to throw alley-oops to, its easy for him to rack up the assists, and his major points game are few and far between. Give me a Rondo or a healthy Rose any day over him.
 
Rykker_4united said:
Look at the system that Paul plays in. With all those athletes to throw alley-oops to, its easy for him to rack up the assists, and his major points game are few and far between. Give me a Rondo or a healthy Rose any day over him.
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Interesting. I would still take CP3 over Rondo, not sure about Rose though, seeing as he's been injured since his first really great season. Out of curiosity, would you take a healthy Paul or Wade?
 
okLaptop1 said:
Interesting. I would still take CP3 over Rondo, not sure about Rose though, seeing as he's been injured since his first really great season. Out of curiosity, would you take a healthy Paul or Wade?
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I've never really fancied Wade. I'd take Paul over Wade because he is definitely the better leader and a better centre piece for an organization.
 
CP3 is the Wilt Chamberlain of this era. If you take a look at his stats and skills, he's up there as of of the greatest to play the game, but when you look at his lack of team success compared to lesser players, it really makes you wonder if he deserves to be that highly ranked.
 
okLaptop1 said:
Interesting. I would still take CP3 over Rondo, not sure about Rose though, seeing as he's been injured since his first really great season. Out of curiosity, would you take a healthy Paul or Wade?
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Wade easily. The SG position is the weakest in the NBA, and a healthy Wade would probably be top 3 SG of all time, only behind MJ and Kobe (Excluding the older players that I've never watched, so pretty much from MJ's time till now).

PG position is stacked as hell and you could probably find a replacement much easier.
 
elmo said:
CP3 is the Wilt Chamberlain of this era. If you take a look at his stats and skills, he's up there as of of the greatest to play the game, but when you look at his lack of team success compared to lesser players, it really makes you wonder if he deserves to be that highly ranked.
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It's also a case of people overrating current players because we watch them play all the time. As good as Nash is, I remember a time when people were REALLY overrating him. I saw an analyst on ESPN say once that Nash was only behind Magic, Stockton, and Robertson all time best PG's. I think a decade from now, Chris Paul's real place in history will become clear, and it definitely won't be as high as a lot of people seem to think.
 
elmo said:
Wade easily. The SG position is the weakest in the NBA, and a healthy Wade would probably be top 3 SG of all time, only behind MJ and Kobe (Excluding the older players that I've never watched, so pretty much from MJ's time till now).

PG position is stacked as hell and you could probably find a replacement much easier.
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Fair point on the positions, but Paul scores and assists so much that sometimes it seems like his box score is a total of both guards lol
 
Rykker_4united said:
Look at the system that Paul plays in. With all those athletes to throw alley-oops to, its easy for him to rack up the assists, and his major points game are few and far between. Give me a Rondo or a healthy Rose any day over him.
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You think this is the only system Paul has ever played in? His teams have won 56 games 3 times without ever having a true second star until this year. Chris Paul before the injury was on pace to be the best point guard ever. In his age 22 and 23 years, he averaged 22 points, 11 assists, 5 rebounds, 3 steals, shot 50% and had almost a 4:1 assist to turnover ratio. And he was 23.


elmo said:
CP3 is the Wilt Chamberlain of this era. If you take a look at his stats and skills, he's up there as of of the greatest to play the game, but when you look at his lack of team success compared to lesser players, it really makes you wonder if he deserves to be that highly ranked.
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Since Chamberlain is the second best player of all time, I think Paul would be happy with that comparison.


okLaptop1 said:
Not better at running the whole team and making it greater than the sum of its parts, not better at carrying teams through play-off runs. I consider these things greater than talent and skill-set. And even going by talent and skill-set, he isn't "easily" better than both of them anyway.
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He really is easily better, even by skill set.



Nash - 14/8/3/1 on 49% shooting
Kidd - 13/9/6//2 on 40% shooting
Paul - 19/10/5/3 on 47% shooting


Paul was every bit the defensive player that Kidd was with as much offensive talent as Nash. He is the best of both worlds.
 
Eboue said:
Nash - 14/8/3/1 on 49% shooting
Kidd - 13/9/6//2 on 40% shooting
Paul - 19/10/5/3 on 47% shooting


Paul was every bit the defensive player that Kidd was with as much offensive talent as Nash. He is the best of both worlds.
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You're gonna need a whole lot more than three stat lines to convince me of these two statements. You know what, scratch that, just answer me this: if he's that good, how come he's never been past the second round of the play-offs in his career?
 
okLaptop1 said:
You're gonna need a whole lot more than three stat lines to convince me of these two statements. You know what, scratch that, just answer me this: if he's that good, how come he's never been past the second round of the play-offs in his career?
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More points, more assists on better shooting percentage and less turnovers. He's obviously better offensively than Kidd and it isn't close.

Steve Nash has always been porous defensively, meanwhile Chris Paul is headed for his 4th All NBA Defensive 1st team selection in addition to two second teams.


As for why he hasn't gone so far...playing in a loaded conference with subpar teammates. He's only 28, at this age Jason Kidd was making his first finals appearance thanks to a horrible Eastern Conference and getting swept by the Lakers. At 28, Steve Nash was still the third wheel on a Dallas team that didn't make the finals.
 
Siding more with Eboue here. Can't think of many PG's I'd rate higher on the defensive end. Westbrook, Conley.. then CP3 IMO. The Hornets team he was in was hilariously awful, and in the same division as the Mavs, Spurs, Memphis and Houston. The Clippers haven't been great in the post season, but last year Griffin was injured against the Grizzlies, the year before they got swept by an excellent Spurs team. CP3 has no excuses now, he has the best power forward in the league, a better supporting cast (Crawford, Redick) and a much better coach. Anything less than a Western Conference final would be a disappointment.
 
I have no time for the Pacers now. Hopefully they get swept. Wussies, as Barkley said.

I caught the Dallas-SA and Memphis-OKC games. Dallas kept pace with SA until the final quarter. They still have a shot in this series. Memphis were damned by horrible FT shooting and exhaustion towards the end. Calathes' suspension is a serious blow, Conley was gassed midway through the 3rd quarter. Westbrook made some dumb plays that let the Grizzlies back into the game initially.

Impressed by the result the Wizards got.
 
adexkola said:
Siding more with Eboue here. Can't think of many PG's I'd rate higher on the defensive end. Westbrook, Conley.. then CP3 IMO. The Hornets team he was in was hilariously awful, and in the same division as the Mavs, Spurs, Memphis and Houston. The Clippers haven't been great in the post season, but last year Griffin was injured against the Grizzlies, the year before they got swept by an excellent Spurs team. CP3 has no excuses now, he has the best power forward in the league, a better supporting cast (Crawford, Redick) and a much better coach. Anything less than a Western Conference final would be a disappointment.
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Thing is, we all agree that he's a great point guard, we just don't get why he seems to get off easy compared to the rest of his peers when it comes to playoff expectations.
 
elmo said:
Thing is, we all agree that he's a great point guard, we just don't get why he seems to get off easy compared to the rest of his peers when it comes to playoff expectations.
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That's fair. I've watched the majority of his post season games with the Clippers, and I don't recall his performances dipping (correct me if I'm wrong).

2011-2012 postseason: Torched the Grizzlies in games 5 and 6. Advanced to semifinals against the Spurs, who swallow up Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan, winning all 4 games despite CP3 being the better PG in the series.
2012-2013 postseason: Blake Griffin hampered by injury. CP3 tightly marked by Conley, and his numbers sag. Grizzlies win series in 5 games.

In those series, he had a clueless coach in Vinny Del Negro, and a raw Blake Griffin. He could have done better, but I wouldn't say he was horrible in the last 2 post seasons. I'm expecting much more from him this time. I did not see enough of Nash and Kidd, but their achievements ensures that for now, CP3 has some work to do to ensure his name ranks with them when his career is over.
 
Eboue said:
You think this is the only system Paul has ever played in? His teams have won 56 games 3 times without ever having a true second star until this year. Chris Paul before the injury was on pace to be the best point guard ever. In his age 22 and 23 years, he averaged 22 points, 11 assists, 5 rebounds, 3 steals, shot 50% and had almost a 4:1 assist to turnover ratio. And he was 23.
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He still never won anything. Like I said, his BIG games were always few and far between. I think Paul is an all time great, but he isn't the best Point Guard in the league now, let alone one of the best ever.
 
elmo said:
Wade easily. The SG position is the weakest in the NBA, and a healthy Wade would probably be top 3 SG of all time, only behind MJ and Kobe (Excluding the older players that I've never watched, so pretty much from MJ's time till now).

PG position is stacked as hell and you could probably find a replacement much easier.
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Yeah that discounts some of the achievements of players from the 60, 70s, who were some of the best players in NBA history. As far as the "SG" position, i See very little difference between that and SF. Do you think someone like LeBron couldn't play the 2?
 
Rykker_4united said:
He still never won anything. Like I said, his BIG games were always few and far between. I think Paul is an all time great, but he isn't the best Point Guard in the league now, let alone one of the best ever.
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That's a horrible argument. I just pointed out that the other two guys never won anything either. (Except Kidd as a 37 year old where he was 9th on his own team in points per game)


Not only that, Paul has had worse teammate and harder competition that the other two.

If that wasn't enough, he's only 28 and dealt with a serious injury.


Just because you say he isn't the best doesn't make it true. Frankly you don't have any credibility when you think Rondo is better.
 
Eboue said:
That's a horrible argument. I just pointed out that the other two guys never won anything either. (Except Kidd as a 37 year old where he was 9th on his own team in points per game)


Not only that, Paul has had worse teammate and harder competition that the other two.

If that wasn't enough, he's only 28 and dealt with a serious injury.


Just because you say he isn't the best doesn't make it true. Frankly you don't have any credibility when you think Rondo is better.
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Maybe I should be clear that in terms of who will go down as a better basketball player, Paul is better than Rondo. But Rondo is a better playmaker and a better true Point guard.

You're making it seem like I don't like Chris Paul. All I'm saying is that his current system makes his job pretty easy, as far as assist numbers.
 
Rykker_4united said:
I've never really fancied Wade. I'd take Paul over Wade because he is definitely the better leader and a better centre piece for an organization.
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You're officially disqualified from the conversation now..

I mean come on. You're gonna take Paul over Wade? (Assuming both are healthy and at the same age)

I have been on the fence in this conversation in the last few years. And I will be this year too. Let's see what Paul can do this year (with a very good and balanced team and a great coach) and then we could probably be able to judge him better.

But, regardless what he does this year, he is still obviously a great player.
 
Danny1982 said:
You're officially disqualified from the conversation now..

I mean come on. You're gonna take Paul over Wade? (Assuming both are healthy and at the same age)

I have been on the fence in this conversation in the last few years. And I will be this year too. Let's see what Paul can do this year (with a very good and balanced team and a great coach) and then we could probably be able to judge him better.

But, regardless what he does this year, he is still obviously a great player.
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What makes Wade such an obvious choice?
 
Rykker_4united said:
Maybe I should be clear that in terms of who will go down as a better basketball player, Paul is better than Rondo. But Rondo is a better playmaker and a better true Point guard.

You're making it seem like I don't like Chris Paul. All I'm saying is that his current system makes his job pretty easy, as far as assist numbers.
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But he has played for different coaches, in different cities, for different franchises. And he was great at Wake Forest too. He's clearly not the product of a system.
 
Eboue said:
But he has played for different coaches, in different cities, for different franchises. And he was great at Wake Forest too. He's clearly not the product of a system.
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No hes a great piece if in a great team, an all star, and definitely a hall of fame player. He is definitely not the 3rd best SG ever.
 
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