"Negative Tactics" in Europe

[Pogue Mahone]

So SAF stands accused of being overly negative in Europe, grinding out results, with unnecesarily defensive football.

This is an opinion I have some sympathy with, especially after a shoddy display like last night, when it's easy to feel negative about our efforts in the CL in general.

But it did get me wondering if this was more a result of us being spoilt by watching us annihilate genuinely shite teams like Newcastle on a regular basis. Which makes us un-reasonably disappointed when we come up against a decent side like Lyon and only win by the odd goal.

So I decided to have a look at the goal difference of some of the better known teams left in the competition:

United
For 15
Against 5
GD +10

Arsenal
For 16
Against 4
GD +12

Chelsea
For 9
Against 2
GD +7

Barcelona
For 16
Against 5
GD +11

Real Madrid
For 14
Against 10
GD +4

Liverpool
For 20
Against 5
GD +15

To add an additional bit of perspective to these, it's worth remembering that we got the toughest draw (i.e. Lyon) of any of the group-winning teams and that the whipping boys in Liverpool and Arsenal's groups were much, much weaker than the equivalent side in our group (and picked up 6 and 8 goal thrashings as a result)

One thing's for sure, our goal-scoring record in this season's Champion's League compares very favourably with Barca and Real. Does anyone think either of those teams are being too cautious in Europe?

Or perhaps is it about time we recognised that the standard of opposition we face in the Champion's League means that we're kidding ourselves if we think we can steamroll teams the way we do in England?

Discuss.

 

[Bilbo]

I think people have taken their stance on this issue and won't be moved, regardless of any statistics. Some hate it, and feel its not the United way, others feel it is our best chance of winning the CL again.

I'm in the latter group, and most importantly, so are Ferguson and Quieroz.

 

[Mozza]

I don't think anyone expects we'd smash every team we met, I think we can play better football and still win.

When we meet the teams which are our equal, negative football sees us surrender possession and momentum which they will use better then average sides like Lyon, we'll go out with wimper, if we're going to loose lets go out with a bang.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

Why do people say Lyon is an average side?

They are a top 10 side in Europe!

 

[Bilbo]

I don't think anyone expects we'd smash every team we met, I think we can play better football and still win.

When we meet the teams which are our equal, negative football sees us surrender possession and momentum which they will use better then average sides like Lyon, we'll go out with wimper, if we're going to loose lets go out with a bang.

The important thing is that we still have this option. We have a plan B, and it can be devastating. No doubt we'll find ourselves needing to use it at some stage. Until then, I'm happy to see us control matches.

 

[Bilbo]

Why do people say Lyon is an average side?

They are a top 10 side in Europe!

They say that because United made them look fairly ordinary, by controlling both matches.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

They say that because United made them look fairly ordinary, by controlling both matches.

Put it this way; not one of the Lyon starting XI would have looked out of place in our team.

 

[Red17]

We have one of the soundest defence in all Europe - in our first choice back 4 + a couple of the backups.

And we are probably within the top 2 or 3 counter attacking sides in Europe.

So, doesn't it make sense, when caution and tactics require, to employ these 2 key strengths in our game??!

 

[Lot 49]

I think people have taken their stance on this issue and won't be moved, regardless of any statistics. Some hate it, and feel its not the United way, others feel it is our best chance of winning the CL again.

I'm not in either group

I don't hate it and I'm not really sure what "the United way" means. I just think we'll have more chance of doing well if we play our best team and imo that's a team playing 4-4-2 with Rooney and Tevez upfront and two wingers with pace who can go down the line.

 

[Mozza]

The important thing is that we still have this option. We have a plan B, and it can be devastating. No doubt we'll find ourselves needing to use it at some stage. Until then, I'm happy to see us control matches.

we won't control matches against better sides, they'll take advantage then we'll need a Rooney shaped miracle to claw back a 3-2 win, sometimes even that won't be enough.

 

[redmanc]

I thought the team we put out was just about perfect for the game, negative or not, it may not have been pleasing to the eye but tactics were spot on.

 

[SmashedHombre]

For me its quite simple, I hate watching us play poor football even if we win. I don't mind if its the odd game here and there, but poor display after poor display in Europe is just disheartening.

 

[Mozza]

Why do people say Lyon is an average side?

They are a top 10 side in Europe!

No they're not, between England, Spain and Italy you've more then 10 teams who are better, they are in the second tier where theres a lot of teams of a similar level

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

I thought the team we put out was just about perfect for the game, negative or not, it may not have been pleasing to the eye but tactics were spot on.

The thing is, we didn't set out playing negatively last night. We started the game with high pressure and high tempo, which is almost impossible to maintain trhoughout 90 mins.

 

[Bilbo]

we won't control matches against better sides, they'll take advantage then we'll need a Rooney shaped miracle to claw back a 3-2 win, sometimes even that won't be enough.

And you say Ferguson is negative. Jeez

 

[SmashedHombre]

The thing is, we didn't set out playing negatively last night. We started the game with high pressure and high tempo, which is almost impossible to maintain trhoughout 90 mins.

Maybe, but would maintaining it for more than 20minutes be too much to ask? and by the second half I would hve been happy for us to just complete 3 passes in a row to our own players.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

No they're not, between England, Spain and Italy you've more then 10 teams who are better, they are in the second tier where theres a lot of teams of a similar level

In England, us, Arsenal, Chelsea and maybe Liverpool are better.

In Spain Real and Barca are better.

Not sure if any of the Italian teams are better.

That's about it.

5 teams are defnitely better than Lyon.

 

[Bilbo]

Maybe, but would maintaining it for more than 20minutes be too much to ask? and by the second half I would hve been happy for us to just complete 3 passes in a row to our own players.

Against Arsenal recently was one end of the spectrum, this was the other. Similar formations, vastly different quality of performance.

We still beat two good sides though, because we didn't give anything soft away, and are always capable of scoring goals.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

Maybe, but would maintaining it for more than 20minutes be too much to ask? and by the second half I would hve been happy for us to just complete 3 passes in a row to our own players.

The failure to pass it properly has nothing to do with being positive or negative.

 

[Coxy]

How did you guys play when you won it in 99? was it 4 4 2?

personally after watching you last night, I couldn't believe fergie was still playing the way he did in the first leg. Any players get used to a set of tactics, and the way you play in the premier league can get replicated in the champions league imo. You need to play tevez with rooney, they play well together, so why change that and end up spluttering your way through matches??

 

[Denis' cuff]

But it did get me wondering if this was more a result of us being spoilt by watching us annihilate genuinely shite teams like Newcastle on a regular basis. Which makes us un-reasonably disappointed when we come up against a decent side like Lyon and only win by the odd goal.
Discuss.

I think this is more to the point - finishing apart, that was an excellent performance last night

Why do people say Lyon is an average side?

They are a top 10 side in Europe!

agree

Put it this way; not one of the Lyon starting XI would have looked out of place in our team.

agree - they had quality right thru their side. A solid defence, plus players like Govou, Juninho, Benzema, Arfa, with Fred and Keita coming off the bench. For me, for once, we played a tactical game and played it well. Very well. They rarely looked like scoring, whereas we would've put 3 or 4 away on another night. Just not like us to be that bad up front. I know we have our "moments" but you'd have to say that our main strength is our ability to score a goal. Last night the midfield played a superb game, defensively, allowing the defence to defend. Should've scored more but otherwisw well satisfied with that

 

[Red17]

No they're not, between England, Spain and Italy you've more then 10 teams who are better, they are in the second tier where theres a lot of teams of a similar level

England:
Utd
Arse
Chelsea

Spain:
Barcelona

Italy:
Milan (? of this season)
Inter
Roma

I count 7 teams that could claim to be superior to Lyon in Europe.

I've excluded Real Madrid as they've beaten them twice and drew twice in 4 games in the past 3 seasons. Liverpool? Even Milan of this season, cannot make a concrete case to be better than Lyon.

 

[Bilbo]

How did you guys play when you won it in 99? was it 4 4 2?

personally after watching you last night, I couldn't believe fergie was still playing the way he did in the first leg. Any players get used to a set of tactics, and the way you play in the premier league can get replicated in the champions league imo. You need to play tevez with rooney, they play well together, so why change that and end up spluttering your way through matches??

Because in the PL your average opponent are far inferior to the CL, and conceding goals isn't nearly as costly.

 

[redmanc]

The thing is, we didn't set out playing negatively last night. We started the game with high pressure and high tempo, which is almost impossible to maintain trhoughout 90 mins.

Of course, no way the players could have put that amount of energy into the game for a full 90 minutes and it showed as Lyon got a bit of pressure on us a couple of times in the second half but overall, i was delighted for a change with our lineup.

Im not saying we played negatively but at times it wasnt always a joy to watch, not that its a bad thing, we had a job to do and it got done eventually.

Also Fletcher has finally shown the plebs what he brings to the team, or its been accepted by them either way his game was perfect for last night.

 

[Lot 49]

Because in the PL your average opponent are far inferior to the CL, and conceding goals isn't nearly as costly.

That's why we should do what Coxy said and play Tevez upfront with Rooney. If we're playing against better sides then we need to play our best team to have more chance of winning, deliberately handicapping ourselves is dumb.

Just think about what your arguing for a minute. The conceding goals is more costly would be a valid argument for being cautious if it didn't apply just as much to the other side. If it's true, which it is, then it equally applies that scoring goals has to be more valuable. You can't have it both ways. Therefore it's a logical fallacy to state that we need to play more defensively because the gain from improved defensive is just as offset by our weakened attack and the only difference is we're not playing to our strengths.

The only good argument for playing more defensively in Europe is if you genuinely think that a more defensive United with three central midfielders and a single striker is a more effective side than one with more width and a partner for Rooney. If you think that then fine, some people do, but if you don't then your arguing that we need to deliberately make ourselves into a worse team to succeed at a higher level and I'm sorry but that's just fecking retarded.

 

[Plechazunga]

I don't even mind us being cautious, what I find hard is seeing Wayne so toothless and frustrated, it's having a real effect on his confidence.

Still, nice to be proigressing so smoothly for a change

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

I don't even mind us being cautious, what I find hard is seeing Wayne so toothless and frustrated, it's having a real effect on his confidence.

Still, nice to be proigressing so smoothly for a change

Rooney is clearly lacking in confidence, and is trying too hard as well, I reckon, which obviously has an effect on his game - especially inside the box.

 

[Lot 49]

Plechazunga read my last post and tell me if the final paragraph comes across as me calling Fergie retarded because I don't want it to sound like that and I'll edit it if it does.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

The only good argument for playing more defensively in Europe is if you genuinely think that a more defensive United with three central midfielders and a single striker is a more effective side than one with more width and a partner for Rooney. If you think that then fine, some people do, but if you don't then your arguing that we need to deliberately make ourselves into a worse team to succeed at a higher level and I'm sorry but that's just fecking retarded.

A side with three centre midfielders do not have to be more defensive than a side with 2 strikers up front.

And again, we did not set out yesterday playing defensively.

 

[redmanc]

I don't even mind us being cautious, what I find hard is seeing Wayne so toothless and frustrated, it's having a real effect on his confidence.

Still, nice to be proigressing so smoothly for a change

Even with lack of confidence, that run he made from the middle of the field right into the box was pretty sweet, shame it never turned into a goal

He's always going to be a threat to teams even with a bad run of form and as usual, its all going to be fixed with a goal or two.

 

[Bilbo]

That's why we should do what Coxy said and play Tevez upfront with Rooney. If we're playing against better sides then we need to play our best team to have more chance of winning, deliberately handicapping ourselves is dumb.

Just think about what your arguing for a minute. The conceding goals is more costly would be a valid argument for being cautious if it didn't apply just as much to the other side. If it's true, which it is, then it equally applies that scoring goals has to be more valuable. You can't have it both ways. Therefore it's a logical fallacy to state that we need to play more defensively because the gain from improved defensive is just as offset by our weakened attack and the only difference is we're not playing to our strengths.

The only good argument for playing more defensively in Europe is if you genuinely think that a more defensive United with three central midfielders and a single striker is a more effective side than one with more width and a partner for Rooney. If you think that then fine, some people do, but if you don't then your arguing that we need to deliberately make ourselves into a worse team to succeed at a higher level and I'm sorry but that's just fecking retarded.

We play the same way against all of the top teams though, whether its domestic or CL. Controlling the midfield is key.

Against most of the fodder in the league, we can play any way we want and still win 95% of the time.

There are arguments that it might not serve certain players e.g Rooney, and that argument is valid, but the team is more important than any one player IMO and this way of playing is proven to be successful.

 

[Lot 49]

A side with three centre midfielders do not have to be more defensive than a side with 2 strikers up front.

And again, we did not set out yesterday playing defensively.

It does with the players we play it with.

I'm sure it wasn't the plan to play defensively but that's what happens time and time again when we play like that.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

It does with the players we play it with.

No - as I said, we didn't play defensively yesterday, especially not in the first half.

In the second half we couldn't pass the fecker, and it is VERY hard to attack when you can't keep the ball...

Did we play defensively against Arsenal in the FA Cup?

 

[redman5]

Because in the PL your average opponent are far inferior to the CL, and conceding goals isn't nearly as costly.

Spot on. Its all very well dishing out hidings to the Derby's & Newcastle's of this world, but when you come across technically better gifted teams & players, you have to give them respect & not expect them to roll over & die at the first sight of a Ronaldo step-over.

Should United go onto win the trophy (spits), then I doubt many of you will give a fook about your performance against Lyon.

 

[Lot 49]

We play the same way against all of the top teams though, whether its domestic or CL. Controlling the midfield is key.

Against most of the fodder in the league, we can play any way we want and still win 95% of the time.

There are arguments that it might not serve certain players e.g Rooney, and that argument is valid, but the team is more important than any one player IMO and this way of playing is proven to be successful.

No we don't that's bollocks. We started Rooney and Tevez upfront against Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool this season and won twice and drew once.

Yeah I know the team is more important that any one player which is why I've been talking about our "best team" and not "best team for Rooney". I don't think this way has to be proven to be stressful either, what have we ever won while playing it? We crashed out of Europe last season with the 1 upfront and that's how we lost the FA cup final too.

 

[peterstorey]

No we don't that's bollocks. We started Rooney and Tevez upfront against Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool this season and won twice and drew once.

No, you're the one talking bollocks you played 4231 in all those games.

 

[Lot 49]

No - as I said, we didn't play defensively yesterday, especially not in the first half.

In the second half we couldn't pass the fecker, and it is VERY hard to attack when you can't keep the ball...

Did we play defensively against Arsenal in the FA Cup?

Yes we did play defensively yesterday. In the first half we played, or at least started, well but apart from the first ten minutes we were pretty cautious. How many saves did their keeper make in the first 45 minutes?

Against Arsenal we were very attacking but it helps when the opposition don't show up. One game means nothing compared to years of defensive performances.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

No we don't that's bollocks. We started Rooney and Tevez upfront against Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool this season and won twice and drew once.

Yeah I know the team is more important that any one player which is why I've been talking about our "best team" and not "best team for Rooney". I don't think this way has to be proven to be stressful either, what have we ever won while playing it? We crashed out of Europe last season with the 1 upfront and that's how we lost the FA cup final too.

Just because we play both Rooney and Tevez, doesn't mean we play 4-4-2.

 

[IhabX7]

I don't even mind us being cautious, what I find hard is seeing Wayne so toothless and frustrated, it's having a real effect on his confidence.

Still, nice to be proigressing so smoothly for a change

Rooney needs to have more confidence in his dribbling ability or try to improve it. You rarely see him trying to beat his man, even if its one on one. The only time he tried it last night was late in the second half and it was a brilliant move that ended up in him trying to backheel the ball to Ronaldo when he had an opportunity to find half a yard and belt it.

In my opinion, when Rooney steps up his game and close in on his full potential, we will be the team to fear in Europe. He's an amazing player, great character, just needs to have more faith in his ability and be more selfish at times (AKA better decision making).

 

[Lot 49]

No, you're the one talking bollocks you played 4231 in all those games.

Nope it was 4-4-2, which a lot of people claim is 4-2-3-1.