NHS winter 'crisis'

[Silva]

Okay it wont save but it will fecking help

What would help is proper funding. This is like trying to put out a forest fire with a watering can.

 

[Mozza]

Yes it saves time and money. Mozza you have serious priority issues.

Does it compared to the cost of a payment system, record keeping, dispute resolution and recovery system for missed appointments?

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Re: the winter crisis

The experience of Australia last winter already had the NHS on alert to some extent, and there were additional concerns surrouding the flu vaccine for a second year in a row IIRC.

If the pharmaceuticals firms could find a halfway effective version for the Norovirus, the situation would improve

 

[Ramshock]

Does it compared to the cost of a payment system, record keeping, dispute resolution and recovery system for missed appointments?

Cost of lives is more important.

 

[buckooo1978]

I've a mate who works for Ambulance Service - he had to deal with some seriously awful reports - waiting times for ambulances were up to 6 hours resulting in deaths

what kind of society do we live in

 

[Mozza]

Hospital appointments aren't like a trip to the shop round the corner, they often require planning and take up hours of your day. The NHS also sends out a reminder by text as others have alluded to.

Because people see the NHS as a free service, it's a case of no harm no foul from their PoV. A cancellation fee or initial charge would encourage people to take puncuality and attendance seriously. What we have instead is wasted time on the part of staff and slots which could be taken up by other patients.

People often don't have money

 

[SteveJ]

Come on, it was an obvious penalty.

 

[Mozza]

Cost of lives is more important.

It is, imagine putting someone off visiting the Dr because they have a fine hanging over their heads from a missed appointment they can't afford to pay, and them dieing in their home

 

[Ramshock]

It is, imagine putting someone off visiting the Dr because they have a fine hanging over their heads from a missed appointment they can't afford to pay, and them dieing in their home

Imagine thinking a grown ass adult cant call or text a clinic. Its gone up to£20 now Mozza for being a cnut

 

[Mozza]

Imagine thinking a grown ass adult cant call or text a clinic. Its gone up to£20 now Mozza for being a cnut

That's a lot of money for the 16 million adults with less than £100 in savings

 

[Ramshock]

That's a lot of money for the 16 million adults with less than £100 in savings

Mozza wants people to wait longer to see a doctor for the sake of a text or phone call. Got it!

 

[Silva]

Mozza wants people to wait longer to see a doctor for the sake of a text or phone call. Got it!

You need to tone it down a little bit. He's not stealing your kidney, he's pointing out the logical flaws in your argument.

 

[Mozza]

Mozza wants people to wait longer to see a doctor for the sake of a text or phone call. Got it!

It's a minor problem in the grand scheme of the NHS. I'm not happy that people miss appointments, it's rude, but to start fining people will be a waste of time and money.

 

[Ramshock]

You need to tone it down a little bit. He's not stealing your kidney, he's pointing out the logical flaws in your argument.

The logical flaw in that people cant text or make calls? Yeah thats some fecking argument Silva. You reading this stuff @golden_blunder

 

[Silva]

The logical flaw in that people cant text or make calls? Yeah thats some fecking argument Silva. You reading this stuff @golden_blunder

No, that it impacts the poorest and least likely to visit a doctor in the first place. It's an attack on the lower classes, creating an NHS where those with money get even better treatment than they already do.

 

[Ramshock]

No, that it impacts the poorest and least likely to visit a doctor in the first place. It's an attack on the lower classes, creating an NHS where those with money get even better treatment than they already do.

Is it only lower classes that see a doctor then Silva?

 

[Silva]

Is it only lower classes that see a doctor then Silva?

You're purposefully missing the point now.

 

[Stanley Road]

That's a lot of money for the 16 million adults with less than £100 in savings

I have less than 1 euro savings

 

[Ramshock]

You're purposefully missing the point now.

No I am not, I am saying there are people who arent on the poverty line who dont cancel appointments and abuse the system. You and Mozzas argument rests entirely on a fraction of people who may be too sick to either call or text or ask someone to call or text or even answer the courtesy call given to them before said appointment. You dont want anyone to take responsibility. Golden Wonder mentioned a relative with memory issues who still made the effort to handle their appointments. This cost issue is a side track and is entirely avoidable for a one minute phonecall or a text. Not buying your crap.

 

[JustAFan]

No, that it impacts the poorest and least likely to visit a doctor in the first place. It's an attack on the lower classes, creating an NHS where those with money get even better treatment than they already do.

What? That's a huge reach

 

[JustAFan]

You need to tone it down a little bit. He's not stealing your kidney, he's pointing out the logical flaws in your argument.

If you go back you notice he started with just not thinking anyone should be expected to make a call to cancel an appointment they can't make. He only jumped to the poor people arguement after the flaws in his arguement were pointed out. He is trying to score points by moving the goalposts.

 

[SteveJ]

This is the row that never ends
Yes, it goes on and on, my friends...

 

[Mozza]

No I am not, I am saying there are people who arent on the poverty line who dont cancel appointments and abuse the system. You and Mozzas argument rests entirely on a fraction of people who may be too sick to either call or text or ask someone to call or text or even answer the courtesy call given to them before said appointment. You dont want anyone to take responsibility. Golden Wonder mentioned a relative with memory issues who still made the effort to handle their appointments. This cost issue is a side track and is entirely avoidable for a one minute phonecall or a text. Not buying your crap.

Golden wonder didn't answer my follow up questions

 

[Ramshock]

Golden wonder didn't answer my follow up questions

Thats up to him.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Let's cut through all this nonsense of fines and sending in some heavies over a 10-20 quid.

Charge for the appointments from outset (albeit fairly nodest), and those who fall under a certain threshold can have the sum refunded when they show up.

No, that it impacts the poorest and least likely to visit a doctor in the first place. It's an attack on the lower classes, creating an NHS where those with money get even better treatment than they already do.

But what about the poor person who could have had a sooner aappointment but didn't?

 

[Mozza]

Let's cut through all this nonsense of fines and sending in some heavies over a 10-20 quid.

Charge for the appointments from outset (albeit fairly nodest), and those who who fall under a certain threshold can have the sum refunded if and when they show up.




But what about the poor person who could have had a sooner aappointment but didn't?

What if they don't have the money to book an appointment?

 

[Silva]

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0137306#sec017

This seems like a more reasonable way to get people to go to their appointments - telling them the cost of missing one. It's certainly preferable to blaming the public for chronic underfunding.

 

[JustAFan]

But what about the poor person who could have had a sooner aappointment but didn't?

They are not important

 

[africanspur]

It is genuinely abysmal. Truly scary stuff, I cannot believe that the 5th or 6th richest country in the world has a healthcare system that currently looks like this.

Hospitals which are full at the beginning of night shifts. Patients in A&E over 24 hours. Patients waiting over 4 hours on the back of an ambulance (with sepsis, chest pain etc etc). Patients waiting at home for ambulances for 6-7 hours, the same ambulances which are queuing up 10+ at the back of A&Es, waiting to be able to offload. Yesterday, I saw a patient being seen in the majors who 100% should have been in resuscitation. They simply could not be seen there cos every single bed was full the entire night.

Its a genuine shambles. A&E isn't safe. The hospital at large isn't safe. Its a shambles.

We've been warning about this stuff for ages. Its a perfect storm. Ageing population, poor health education, chronic underfunding, a failing primary care sector and a terrible social care sector on top of more and more gaps in rotas for both doctors and nurses as the NHS becomes a less and less attractive place to work just means that it all goes wrong.

Bloody hell, how have we allowed this to happen?

 

[SteveJ]

There's no magic money tree...unless one owns the f*cking tree.

 

[Ramshock]

If you go back you notice he started with just not thinking anyone should be expected to make a call to cancel an appointment they can't make. He only jumped to the poor people arguement after the flaws in his arguement were pointed out. He is trying to score points by moving the goalposts.

Who was moving the goal posts? What is wrong with trying to get people to take responsibility in order to keep something great free and to help it work better. In this day and age not making a call or answering a call or sending a fecking text isnt beyond anyone's capability.

 

[JustAFan]

Who was moving the goal posts? What is wrong with trying to get people to take responsibility in order to keep something great free and to help it work better. In this day and age not making a call or answering a call or sending a fecking text isnt beyond anyone's capability.

Mozza was.

Remember I have been making the same arguement you have in this thread

 

[Ramshock]

What if they don't have the money to book an appointment?

What of they just made a call before they missed the first appointment?

 

[Ramshock]

Mozza was.

Remember I have been making the same arguement you have in this thread

Sorry, Im just annoyed at the absurdity of people not being able to cancel appointments. feck sake I can talk to a lump of plastic made by amazon now that could do it for me., I dont even have to lift my phone these days.

 

[Silva]

Missed appointments cost around 0.8% (give or take 0.1) of the NHS budget. Which is obviously a lot of money, but trying to save/recuperate that money is futile and does nothing to address the biggest issues pointed out in this thread. Measures that address this should be like the one I posted a few minutes ago - ones that don't punish people financially, rather encouraging higher attendance rates.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

What if they don't have the money to book an appointment?

We're not talking about life-threatening situations here, or at least that is my understanding.

At worst i know about my St Thomas' check-ups a couple of months in advance, sometimes it is just under s yeer. If a person can't find £5-10 over such a span of time then seeing the ophthalmologist is the least of their problems, and far from the main societal issue. The truly destitute could be given financial relief; although if they nonetheless take the piss ouf ot the system, i see no reason why shouldn't be sent to the back of the line.

 

[Ramshock]

We're not talking about life-threatening situations here, or at least that is my understanding.

At worst i know about my St Thomas' check-ups a couple of months in advance, sometimes it is just under s yeer. If a person can't find £5-10 over such a span of time then seeing the ophthalmologist is the least of their problems, and far from the main societal issue. The truly destitute could be given financial relief; although if they nonetheless take the piss ouf ot the system, i see no reason why shouldn't be sent to the back of the line.

Correct we arent talking about life threatening. We are talking about people with colds or flus who make an appointment, get one for 7 to 10 days later then feel better and cant be arsed calling/texting/waking in to cancel.

 

[Ramshock]

Missed appointments cost around 0.8% (give or take 0.1) of the NHS budget. Which is obviously a lot of money, but trying to save/recuperate that money is futile and does nothing to address the biggest issues pointed out in this thread. Measures that address this should be like the one I posted a few minutes ago - ones that don't punish people financially, rather ones that encourage higher attendance rates.

Again Silva, a point you seem to like to miss, its about TIME and money and about people who have to wait longer for the sake of a phone call.

 

[Silva]

i see no reason why shouldn't be sent to the back of the line.

that's what happens when you miss an appointment

 

[JustAFan]

It is genuinely abysmal. Truly scary stuff, I cannot believe that the 5th or 6th richest country in the world has a healthcare system that currently looks like this.

Hospitals which are full at the beginning of night shifts. Patients in A&E over 24 hours. Patients waiting over 4 hours on the back of an ambulance (with sepsis, chest pain etc etc). Patients waiting at home for ambulances for 6-7 hours, the same ambulances which are queuing up 10+ at the back of A&Es, waiting to be able to offload. Yesterday, I saw a patient being seen in the majors who 100% should have been in resuscitation. They simply could not be seen there cos every single bed was full the entire night.

Its a genuine shambles. A&E isn't safe. The hospital at large isn't safe. Its a shambles.

We've been warning about this stuff for ages. Its a perfect storm. Ageing population, poor health education, chronic underfunding, a failing primary care sector and a terrible social care sector on top of more and more gaps in rotas for both doctors and nurses as the NHS becomes a less and less attractive place to work just means that it all goes wrong.

Bloody hell, how have we allowed this to happen?

It's not shock when you start working the supply side to meet only low end demand. In the US we have serious issues in many places where any sort of spike in people needing care is going to over-tax the system. Now granted you can't staff to the worst case scenarios but you have to do better. The yearly flu season should not be a huge tax on the health system.