Nordic Ghost Yeti | Haaland at City

[Siorac]

So... People who know football then?

Because I don't think the standard should be what the average idiot on the street would reference. Imagine applying that standard in other forms of artistic expression. "Yeah Ed Sheeran... One of the best to ever do it" says Lily, 32 from Leeds

Surely when it comes to a player's legacy, name recognition is a part of it? Music is quite subjective but in football, there's a pretty strong correlation between recognition and quality. There are underrated, forgotten players, sure, but the players who are usually talked about as the best in history were, by any measure, absolutely wonderful footballers and their fame is well-deserved.

But anyway, people who know football don't rate Kocsis on the same level as Puskás either, despite the crazy number of goals.

 

[Moby]

I'm saying that using the 2008 Ballon d'Or as an example was a poor choice when talking about the importance of goals as a decisive factor in individual recognition because the player who scored fewer goals also won sweet feck all so obviously, he was never going to win the award.

I don't know how active you were back then but anyone who watched that season regularly can pretty easily remember just how highly talked about the 42 goal figure was. Heck there was even a massive media orgasm when he beat Best's league goal tally for a season. Pretty much the entire media took that goal tally and made that a huge driver for him being the unanimous choice as the best player in the world, when he had other attackers in the same double winning team like Rooney who were outstanding and the entire United team was great back to front. If you take that tally down by say 10 goals removing random goals he scored in 4-0 wins in CL group stages or whatever, while his entire performances remaining the exact same otherwise there'd be a far closer race between him and his teammates at the very least, but once that goal tally went beyond the threshold the discussion was over. And that's the trend both him and Messi adopted for the coming decade, making goalscoring a fecking joke and become untouchable.

 

[adexkola]

Surely when it comes to a player's legacy, name recognition is a part of it? Music is quite subjective but in football, there's a pretty strong correlation between recognition and quality. There are underrated, forgotten players, sure, but the players who are usually talked about as the best in history were, by any measure, absolutely wonderful footballers and their fame is well-deserved.

But anyway, people who know football don't rate Kocsis on the same level as Puskás either, despite the crazy number of goals.

Quality as gauged by the average person which may be skewed based on a few aesthetic factors incidental to their actual quality. For example, looks around nervously, the Messi v Ronaldo debate was never as close as the public debate would have you believe. It's not that strong which is when I would expect a few quality names to fall through the cracks. Another example: Godin v Ramos

 

[Moby]

Quality as gauged by the average person which may be skewed based on a few aesthetic factors incidental to their actual quality. For example, looks around nervously, the Messi v Ronaldo debate was never as close as the public debate would have you believe. It's not that strong which is when I would expect a few quality names to fall through the cracks. Another example: Godin v Ramos

It's due to the same "public debate" that guys like Maradona have a massive legacy, because it's those majority that watch football once in 4 years and go crazy about whoever wins the WC, which is Diego's biggest legacy. If you'd ask the nerds on the internet the CL would be the biggest test of a team's ability/tactics/etc yet there is no chance a great CL record will make you more popular than winning a WC. Same goes for Pele. There's a reason why most of the names regarded as GOATs played for Brazil, Argentina, Germany, France etc who are the biggest countries in the sport. So yeah, when we are discussing legacy, it boils down to what gets you popular and it ain't the fecking "most progressive passes per 90 in CL KO games" or whatever.

 

[Zehner]

It's due to the same "public debate" that guys like Maradona have a massive legacy, because it's those majority that watch football once in 4 years and go crazy about whoever wins the WC, which is Diego's biggest legacy. If you'd ask the nerds on the internet the CL would be the biggest test of a team's ability/tactics/etc yet there is no chance a great CL record will make you more popular than winning a WC. Same goes for Pele. There's a reason why most of the names regarded as GOATs played for Brazil, Argentina, Germany, France etc who are the biggest countries in the sport. So yeah, when we are discussing legacy, it boils down to what gets you popular and it ain't the fecking "most progressive passes per 90 in CL KO games" or whatever.

It may confuse you but there are people who actually watch the sport and don't just go by stat sheets. And those who actually watch the sport can tell immediately why Maradona is held in such high regards.

 

[Moby]

It may confuse you but there are people who actually watch the sport and don't just go by stat sheets. And those who actually watch the sport can tell immediately why Maradona is held in such high regards.

What is really confusing me is that why you continue to assume that I bother reading any of your posts

 

[Zehner]

What is really confusing me is that why you continue to assume that I bother reading any of your posts

And I am confused that you are confused that I assume that you bother reading any of my posts. Deeds speak louder than words. I know you love me.

 

[rimaldo]

The Cullinan is an ugly Rolls.

what would you prefer?

“oh look at that gorgeous ferrari, i think that’s the sexiest car of all time. i wonder who’s driving it? oh what luck. they’re about to get out. oh jesus feck, what is it? it looks like the bad guy from ghostbusters 2 after he’s been stung by a thousand bees after having a particularly bad reaction to a handful of peanuts.”

or

“feck that’s an ugly car. i wonder who is driving it? oh he’s not that attractive but nowhere near as ugly as the car.”

he’s just like a 4 hanging around with a bunch of 2s.

 

[adexkola]

It's due to the same "public debate" that guys like Maradona have a massive legacy, because it's those majority that watch football once in 4 years and go crazy about whoever wins the WC, which is Diego's biggest legacy. If you'd ask the nerds on the internet the CL would be the biggest test of a team's ability/tactics/etc yet there is no chance a great CL record will make you more popular than winning a WC. Same goes for Pele. There's a reason why most of the names regarded as GOATs played for Brazil, Argentina, Germany, France etc who are the biggest countries in the sport. So yeah, when we are discussing legacy, it boils down to what gets you popular and it ain't the fecking "most progressive passes per 90 in CL KO games" or whatever.

With the slight caveat that I strongly believe that the CL is a glorified FA cup with music before every game, and a player shouldn't be just judged based on "big games" (which conveniently change based on the player being discussed, the games they lost, and the asshole looking to agenda), but on their entire resume across league, domestic cup, intercontinental cup and international competition... Otherwise I agree

It may confuse you but there are people who actually watch the sport and don't just go by stat sheets. And those who actually watch the sport can tell immediately why Maradona is held in such high regards.

Yes some. Not the majority though!

Odds are that if you post on the Caf, despite being an idiot (of whom I am 1), you are less of an idiot than probably 90% of the general population that watches the sport. Bump that up to 95% if you frequent the football forum, and 96.2% if you are in the draft sub forum I forget exists sometimes

 

[Moby]

the draft sub forum

Now that is literally caf's own "Hamsterdam".

 

[Zehner]

10% talent
90% dedication, diciplin and training

'ish

Maradona didn't have the dicipline to stay at the top, despite being a true magician with the ball.

I don't think there's a single coach in the world that would take 1984 Scirea over 2020 VVD.

I love the game as well, every part of it.
I'm 47, have played football my entire life, and still play actively in the lower division system. It's a long time since I got what I ordered on the football pitch, but I still love being part of football. Even in the lower levels the players are better than when I grew up. Players are not only better physically, they are also better technically and tactically. The sport develops and we have so many tools to develop players both technically, tactically and physically that we didn't have back in the 70', 80' and 90'.

We don't have greater talents now, we just have a lot better tools to develop players from early on and all the way through their careers.

Plus demographics. To become a top 10 footballer worldwide, you needed to be one of the 10 best footballers out of 3.6 bn people in the world. Now it's 10 out of 8 bn. That's definitely a factor as well. And all the media coverage. You can watch so much footage of the best players, can copy them, etc. There are many in depth tactical analyses and break downs, technical tutorials, and so forth.

So you can't really compare between eras. At best you can compare how much a player stood out among his temporaries.

 

[Loon]

what would you prefer?

“oh look at that gorgeous ferrari, i think that’s the sexiest car of all time. i wonder who’s driving it? oh what luck. they’re about to get out. oh jesus feck, what is it? it looks like the bad guy from ghostbusters 2 after he’s been stung by a thousand bees after having a particularly bad reaction to a handful of peanuts.”

or

“feck that’s an ugly car. i wonder who is driving it? oh he’s not that attractive but nowhere near as ugly as the car.”

he’s just like a 4 hanging around with a bunch of 2s.

Oh, you cruel.

 

[Zehner]

Beckham was the first true viral superstar in the modern age. His transfer to La Galaxy pretty much introduced Europe to the fact that MLS was a thing.

The 2002 film Bend it like Beckham was pretty popular when it released as well: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0286499/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

His name is synonymus with crossing the ball, his right foot is legendary in popular culture.

I think that's stretching it a bit. Beckham definitely was the superstar that capitalized the most on his popularity but he wasn't the first or most viral one. You could probably also say that Beckham was the footballer who was the most popular relative to his achievements/qualities. But a quick research on Google Trends for instance shows that Ronaldinho created more worldwide interest in his prime than Beckham. His crossbar video was also considered one of the first viral YouTube clips ever. The by far highest peak was created by Zidane when he headbutted Materazzi by the way. More than four times the search volumina than Beckham and Ronaldinho.

And if we leave somehwat tangible data behind, I'd also say the phenomenon hype surrounding R9 bested the Beckham hype. I remember in the 90s, everybody knew Ronaldo. He basically was football.

 

[TheReligion]

How's he gonna cope with that £200 fine?

You get 6 points now too so he’s halfway towards a ban..

 

[adexkola]

Now that is literally caf's own "Hamsterdam".

I actually laughed out loud.

Remember when the cop let the junkies out into Hamsterdam and they all had the look on their face of "what the feck"?

That's how I feel in the forum. In a good way though! Knowledgeable guys there.

 

[Moby]

I actually laughed out loud.

Remember when the cop let the junkies out into Hamsterdam and they all had the look on their face of "what the feck"?

That's how I feel in the forum. In a good way though! Knowledgeable guys there.

Yeah for sure huge amount of intellect but also equally huge amount of free time.

 

[moses]

What is really confusing me is that why you continue to assume that I bother reading any of your posts

And I am confused that you are confused that I assume that you bother reading any of my posts. Deeds speak louder than words. I know you love me.

Seriously. Grow up.

 

[Moby]

Seriously. Grow up.

I'm very happy with the way I currently am. Zehner knows I like to take the piss.

 

[moses]

I'm very happy with the way I currently am. Zehner knows I like to take the piss.

Yeah, I suppose self awareness was a big ask.

Stop wumming in the football forums.

 

[Moby]

Yeah, I suppose self awareness was a big ask.

Stop wumming in the football forums.

I wasn't though? He replied to me when I was discussing with someone else, and I simply made it clear that I don't agree with him when it comes to football, as I've done in the past. The ones I am replying to myself I am posting on the topic. Don't see what's the issue here?

 

[Wilt]

How's he gonna cope with that £200 fine?

He earns £37 per minute

ie…. he’ll have to save for 5 minutes 20 seconds to pay the fine

 

[giorno]

But at the same time, Kocsis isn't rated anywhere near as high as Puskás even though their numbers are very much comparable - he was every bit as good a goalscorer as Puskás. He just wasn't that good at everything else and consequently he really is someone that only hipsters and football professors remember.

(I'm neither, I'm just Hungarian and they have a **** status here)

Of course. Goals aren't the be all end all of judging players. But they are a very important part of it. Afterall, goals are the most valuable thing in the sport

I agree with the point @Moby makes. Haaland may be only goals, and that would limit him in a comparison with guys who are more than that, sure. But also, there is such a level of goalscoring that makes everything meaningless. If Haaland ends up putting up, say ~80 goals per season, wins multiple CLs with multiple big game performances, no matter how much more complete Mbappé may be, how much more exciting and even how much less dependent on his team, he's still gonna need to at least match Haaland's success to be seen as the better player

 

[Moby]

If Haaland ends up putting up, say ~80 goals per season, wins multiple CLs with multiple big game performances, no matter how much more complete Mbappé may be, how much more exciting and even how much less dependent on his team, he's still gonna need to at least match Haaland's success to be seen as the better player

Exactly my point as well.

 

[Giggsyking]

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Lucky scouse

 

[RedRonaldo]

I am not sure why people has to limit their own criteria on the basis of specific footballer type in order for the player to be regarded as the best player in their mind. It’s like best tier player for them must will also need to be elite dribbler, baller, playmaker etc

But why?

I know we all grow up watching/admiring the skills of the best no.10 in the game showing all those traits (ie Cruyff, Maradona, Zidane, Ronaldinho etc, depends on your age group).

But football is fundamentally a competitive sport. In any competitive sports, it doesn’t matter what skills/ball control you possess, what matter most is to winning and beating your opponents. You can win the game for your team being the most skillful/talented player on the pitch, or you can win it being the most physical athletes on the pitch too, you can also win games being the smartest player on the pitch too. It doesn’t matter how you gets there, what matter most is there is no one who could stop you from winning/beating them!

It’s like playing mmorpg games with different character showing different strength - some character has more agility, some has more strength, some is good at long range, some is simply magician who does amazing spell.

But in football you can only be the best when you fit in certain ideal footballer type. It’s just not making any sense to me.

The thing with Haaland, yes he is not skillful player and he does nothing amazing on the pitch apart from scoring goals.

But can anyone stopped him from scoring goals? Not really, he bullied everyone with his physicality and goalscoring, he is like a Hulk on the pitch where no one could stop. And this alone is good enough to be regarded as the best, if he could achieved success with that.

 

[fck]

Imagine being sad that more information is used to gauge the quality of a player, and discussions are no longer based on how many games (not many) you managed to see someone play.

I'm not anti stats but I'm anti using stats to draw an incomplete or even wrong picture. Football is still a sport were you actually have to watch the games to see who played well and who didn't.

 

[Zehner]

I am not sure why people has to limit their own criteria on the basis of specific footballer type in order for the player to be regarded as the best player in their mind. It’s like best tier player for them must will also need to be elite dribbler, baller, playmaker etc

But why?

I know we all grow up watching/admiring the skills of the best no.10 in the game showing all those traits (ie Cruyff, Maradona, Zidane, Ronaldinho etc, depends on your age group).

But football is fundamentally a competitive sport. In any competitive sports, it doesn’t matter what skills/ball control you possess, what matter most is to winning and beating your opponents. You can win the game for your team being the most skillful/talented player on the pitch, or you can win it being the most physical athletes on the pitch too, you can also win games being the smartest player on the pitch too. It doesn’t matter how you gets there, what matter most is there is no one who could stop you from winning/beating them!

It’s like playing mmorpg games with different character showing different strength - some character has more agility, some has more strength, some is good at long range, some is simply magician who does amazing spell.

But in football you can only be the best when you fit in certain ideal footballer type. It’s just not making any sense to me.

The thing with Haaland, yes he is not skillful player and he does nothing amazing on the pitch apart from scoring goals.

But can anyone stopped him from scoring goals? Not really, he bullied everyone with his physicality and goalscoring, he is like a Hulk on the pitch where no one could stop. And this alone is good enough to be regarded as the best, if he could achieved success with that.

It's not about the type of player but it's impact. To stay within the MMRPG analogy, what you do is claim the player who delivered the finishing blow in a boss fight has been the most important one and not the one who inflicted the most damage or the one who kept his team mates alive throughout the fight.

If Haaland used his physique in a way that allows him to have the same overall impact and contribution as the best playmakers it would be a different discussion. But he doesn't.

And a lot of teams have stopped him from scoring goals in this season alone.

 

[Cantona_7_]

^
"Alot of teams" = 2

Chelsea and Brentford are the only teams he did not score against, both he played 1 game against, will play them last 2 leauge rounds of the season if fit.

All other teams he met (15 in total) he scored in 1 of the games

 

[Eriku]

No Haaland today.

There go the claims that he missed the Spain and Georgia matches for City’s sake.

 

[PSV]

No Haaland today.

There go the claims that he missed the Spain and Georgia matches for City’s sake.

Pfft, if you're going to sell a lie you need to go the extra mile.

 

[mu4c_20le]

But it's not the player, it's the team/Cancelo/Sterling/Pep/Grealish/Mahrez

Spoiler

 

[top1whoisman]

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[Samid]

Scored more than Chelsea in the league.

 

[Nero]

Commence operation deepthroat.

 

[Ian Reus]

The pale Orc leading the charge again

 

[KirkDuyt]

A reverse tap-in is still a tap-in.

 

[Judge Red]

It’s decided. I officially want Arsenal to win the league now.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Lads its Southampton

 

[Sandikan]

Wonder if Pep will decide "all he does is score goals" and replace him with a workhorse who runs around loads and scores 2 a year?

 

[NewUser777]

Far to few touches today.