Nordic Ghost Yeti | Haaland at City

[Joel Miller]

It’s not a knee jerk reaction. Kane is the better number 9 and any top side looking at just the next two seasons would take him over Haaland.

That’s not some huge insult. Haaland is a really special footballer. He scores goals that nobody else could and is probably going to break every record going if he stays fit.

But he’s miles away from the finished article. He’s either going to improve in all the areas he’s deficient, or carry on as he is and always play for sides that play to his strengths.

I think there’s more chance of him being an Ibra type that plays for 10 clubs in a career, than stay at City for another couple and then do 5+ years at Real or Barca.

Let’s be clear though, he’ll win an obscene amount of trophies, score everywhere he goes and finish his career as decorated as Ibra too. I don’t think he’ll care if he doesn’t become a nuanced forward with the ability to also play in the hole.

Kane is another who doesn’t really rise to the occasion when we’re talking about the biggest of games though.

Last season he scored a bunch in the run in to win the league, including their key win at the emirates, and was huge for them to beat Bayern. We're talking about 5 games he didn't impact vs 10 or so which he did? I mean, that is the kind of criticism that could have been levied against Cristiano Ronaldo, or even Messi, in some seasons

That’s not really true, because the goals actually started to dry up for him, and as I said before, I really can’t remember a sequence of games where Messi’s just stood around like a bit of a traffic cone and been comfortably dealt with. He’d at least make defences and midfields work; where as Haaland had been a virtual non factor in many of these games despite being part of a side that has the bulk of the possession.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

That’s not really true, because the goals actually started to dry up for him, and as I said before, I really can’t remember a sequence of games where Messi’s just stood around like a bit of a traffic cone and been comfortably dealt with. He’d at least make defences and midfields work; where as Haaland had been a virtual non factor in many of these games despite being part of a side that has the bulk of the possession.

Messi had a few games against Atletico Madrid where I remember that happening. Barcelona only won 1 CL in his last 10 years of him there, so I'm sure there are plenty of examples in the knockout stage. Ronaldo was poor enough in the Champions League semi-final and final in 2015/16 but still won the Ballon d'Or.

 

[adexkola]

Messi had a few games against Atletico Madrid where I remember that happening. Barcelona only won 1 CL in his last 10 years of him there, so I'm sure there are plenty of examples in the knockout stage. Ronaldo was poor enough in the Champions League semi-final and final in 2015/16 but still won the Ballon d'Or.

The point some are making, is that even in these losses, Messi looked busy. He tried more things. They didn't have an impact, as shown by the losses, but at least he did something.

And if Haaland could just work on perfecting this...

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

The point some are making, is that even in these losses, Messi looked busy. He tried more things. They didn't have an impact, as shown by the losses, but at least he did something.

And if Haaland could just work on perfecting this...

Yeah Messi was clearly better than Haaland but also he had bad games. And it's also to do with team structure and instructions. What would be the point of Haaland dropping deep and getting in Foden, Bernardo, KDB's spaces? It wouldn't make any sense. In fact, despite the talking up of Kane, I think if he did what he does for England sometimes and drops way deeper than he should, that it might have caused more problems for City than Haaland does. As has been said, they won the treble last season in dominant fashion and could win it again as late is mid-April this season, so his role has been nothing but a complete success so far by any metric.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I can agree this, although the first paragraph could be debatable. Kane is the better No9 but would a top side take him over Haaland?

It‘s very easy to pick weaknesses in his game, as indeed (family friend) Keane will repeat at every given opportunity. In fairness he’s never pretended to be a Ronaldo, Messi, Kane etc, he’s simply an outright centre forward with an uncanny knack for scoring goals. Imagine he’d love to be compared to Ibra.

I do think every European club would want him, both now and in the foreseeable future, though realistically there‘s only a handful of clubs that could actually afford him.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge fan of his. I’d be even more of a fan of him playing for Madrid. He’d be incredible in a pacy team that plays in fast transitions.

I just don’t think he’s as good as Kane as he offers very little of his team isn’t dominant and creating chances for him.

It’s weird that he’s the best penalty box player in the world, but borderline hampers his team if they’re not in control in the right way. The constant boring ball recycling City style is literally the worst fit for his playing style.

 

[adexkola]

but borderline hampers his team if they’re not in control in the right way

How exactly does he hamper the team?

 

[Kwabs]

From the emirates game to the end of the season City played 16 games, he playef in 14, and scored in 9. If you add assists, that's 11 out of 14 games with a direct goal involvement. He didn't play in the last game of the season.

Looking at it again, I think you are right actually. My memory of it was probably coloured by the fact that he didn't score in the CL semis and final and the FA Cup final, but he did score in the league towards the end. Not always crucial goals but he certainly chipped in.

 

[Wilt]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge fan of his. I’d be even more of a fan of him playing for Madrid. He’d be incredible in a pacy team that plays in fast transitions.

I just don’t think he’s as good as Kane as he offers very little of his team isn’t dominant and creating chances for him.

It’s weird that he’s the best penalty box player in the world, but borderline hampers his team if they’re not in control in the right way. The constant boring ball recycling City style is literally the worst fit for his playing style.

In the unlikely scenario of a club having the choice of either player, the main reason I think they’ll take Haaland over Kane is they’ll only ever get one chance of signing Haaland, plus Haaland has a much higher commercial value.

All in all I think Haaland a fascinating footballer ….and he won me several bets last season!

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge fan of his. I’d be even more of a fan of him playing for Madrid. He’d be incredible in a pacy team that plays in fast transitions.

I just don’t think he’s as good as Kane as he offers very little of his team isn’t dominant and creating chances for him.

It’s weird that he’s the best penalty box player in the world, but borderline hampers his team if they’re not in control in the right way. The constant boring ball recycling City style is literally the worst fit for his playing style.

Yeah, I don't get how this gets made as a reason he's scoring the goals he does all the time, because he's supplied by world-class attacking midfielders. Guardiola said something along the lines of KDB and Haaland win you games, but they don't make you play well, or something like that. So he's holding back the fact if those two played in a fast transition team for 50 games a season, they'd get obscene numbers. But they don't. He's holding back for extra control, which helps the team but hampers Haaland individually.

Haaland's numbers when playing for Norway, Dortmund and Salzburg suggest that he would score just as many, if not more at another team. I don't agree necessarily that Kane would be better for Haaland at most of the teams in the Premier League for example. Haaland at a mid-table team where he's on the counter and getting constant crosses in the box would be lethal, like Jamie Vardy on steroids.

 

[Zehner]

Yeah, I don't get how this gets made as a reason he's scoring the goals he does all the time, because he's supplied by world-class attacking midfielders. Guardiola said something along the lines of KDB and Haaland win you games, but they don't make you play well, or something like that. So he's holding back the fact if those two played in a fast transition team for 50 games a season, they'd get obscene numbers. But they don't. He's holding back for extra control, which helps the team but hampers Haaland individually.

Haaland's numbers when playing for Norway, Dortmund and Salzburg suggest that he would score just as many, if not more at another team. I don't agree necessarily that Kane would be better for Haaland at most of the teams in the Premier League for example. Haaland at a mid-table team where he's on the counter and getting constant crosses in the box would be lethal, like Jamie Vardy on steroids.

There's no transition team in the world that creates even close to as many chances as City. The most freakish goal statistics over single seasons (Messi, Cristiano, Suarez, Lewandowski, Haaland) also all occurred in teams with lots of possession.

So I don't think de Bruyne and/or Haaland would produce even higher numbers elsewhere. Pep's style is basically the blue print for every top team. If Haaland wants to play striker at the highest possible level, it will be in this or similar teams.

 

[sugar_kane]

Excluding penalties, he's opened the scoring for City a handful of times this season

Premier League

Burnley (A)
Sheff United (A)
Us (A)
Liverpool (H)
Everton (H)

FA Cup

Luton (A)

He only did it in the Prem five times last season as well, out of 36 goals. Not sure how that compares to other top strikers, but it seems low.

Rashford is on 4 in the PL for comparison, same as Hojlund. Last season Rashford did it 8 times in the PL out of 17 goals (47% of his goals vs. 14% for Haaland)

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

There's no transition team in the world that creates even close to as many chances as City. The most freakish goal statistics over single seasons (Messi, Cristiano, Suarez, Lewandowski, Haaland) also all occurred in teams with lots of possession.

So I don't think de Bruyne and/or Haaland would produce even higher numbers elsewhere. Pep's style is basically the blue print for every top team. If Haaland wants to play striker at the highest possible level, it will be in this or similar teams.

He has scored 0.91 goals per game at City, 0.96 at Dortmund, 1.07 for Salzburg and 0.87 per game at Norway, so it’s much of amuchness wherever he goes. I agree City create more chances than other teams but it is evened out in other ways.

 

[giorno]

In that two games against Madrid, Haaland was invisible, they scored four despite him, then what difference would make using that same formation, regarding defenders, but with other AM/SS, just like before, in Haaland place?

He was hardly invisible in the game in which he fumbled a hat trick. Besides that? Ask Guardiola. I mean, we can speculate about hypotheticals all we want. At the end of the day City put together their two best CL ties of the Guardiola era with Haaland on the pitch

 

[adexkola]

When a player is hampering the team, it's clear to see. Lukaku killing attacking moves due to his consistent poor touch, Kalvin Phillips being a sieve in midfield, Maguire's struggles with a high line and defending pact strikers... There are elements you can point to that say, "oh right, he's holding the team back from ABC because of XYZ".

Forget the fact that City won a treble last season. Apart from valid criticism about poorer than usual finishing (which falls within his given role at City), how is he holding the team back? Keep in mind this is a team full of playmakers in the likes of KDB, Foden, Silva the Younger, Doku, Grealish..

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

In the unlikely scenario of a club having the choice of either player, the main reason I think they’ll take Haaland over Kane is they’ll only ever get one chance of signing Haaland, plus Haaland has a much higher commercial value.

All in all I think Haaland a fascinating footballer ….and he won me several bets last season!

To be fair, I did frame it as ‘Haaland or Kane for the next two seasons’, justifying it as I think he’ll frequently move clubs.

Also… let’s be honest. The fella will probably score more than a goal a game for the rest of the season and win a second treble.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

There's no transition team in the world that creates even close to as many chances as City. The most freakish goal statistics over single seasons (Messi, Cristiano, Suarez, Lewandowski, Haaland) also all occurred in teams with lots of possession.

So I don't think de Bruyne and/or Haaland would produce even higher numbers elsewhere. Pep's style is basically the blue print for every top team. If Haaland wants to play striker at the highest possible level, it will be in this or similar teams.

Chicken and egg that one. Haaland would have more goals this year if he’d been playing for Liverpool and had all of Nunez’s chances. As a quick example

The bold is just a factor of better teams almost always having more of the ball, playing more games, and scoring more goals. It’s not an indication that he couldn’t have 20% more chances if Pep was ‘brave’ (stupid) enough to play riskier football, lose more matches and experience higher scoring games.

All moot though. Lad is outscoring almost everyone as he is.

 

[Alpha 1]

Both methods have advantages and disadvantages

City's best performances in the CL since Pep arrived, happened with Haaland in the team. Both offensively and defensively

Bullcrap. Haaland had absolutely nothing to do with their performances last season compared to prior ones.

 

[adexkola]

Bullcrap. Haaland had absolutely nothing to do with their performances last season compared to prior ones.

And again I ask, if he had absolutely nothing to do with their performances last season compared to prior ones... how did they turn in dominant performances enroute to the final... with 10 men? Against Bayern and Real in particular?

We really need this sort of voodoo at United.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

People are getting really twisted. On the rare occasion City lose or draw, you never think ‘Haaland was great today’.

In close games they win, you rarely think that either.

When they’re on top (as they normally are), he’s likely to look good.

He’s an absolute menace for every minute in the final third though.

Honestly don’t think he’ll ever change his game.

 

[stefan92]

Is it possible to take Haaland out of a game? Yes
Does that mean that Haaland's team effectively plays with 10 men instead of 11? Yes
But the price for doing that is that you then likely play with 9-10 men yourself because you have to dedicate players to take Haaland out of the match and likely have to stay relatively deep to protect your defence against him. It's the same for every elite pure striker which is why they have an influence on games even if they do nothing.

 

[Kwabs]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge fan of his. I’d be even more of a fan of him playing for Madrid. He’d be incredible in a pacy team that plays in fast transitions.

I just don’t think he’s as good as Kane as he offers very little of his team isn’t dominant and creating chances for him.

It’s weird that he’s the best penalty box player in the world, but borderline hampers his team if they’re not in control in the right way. The constant boring ball recycling City style is literally the worst fit for his playing style.

I think the bottom line is that as long as his all round game requires work, he will get criticism, and the people in this thread who are fans/staunch defenders of him (a surprising number for a Man United forum to be quite honest) will just have to accept that. Because even in this age of stats and clips, a large number of people still make their minds up on a player by watching them play football and then deciding if they think they are good or not. And once they've watched them enough, throwing numbers at these people simply won't work.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Is it possible to take Haaland out of a game? Yes
Does that mean that Haaland's team effectively plays with 10 men instead of 11? Yes
But the price for doing that is that you then likely play with 9-10 men yourself because you have to dedicate players to take Haaland out of the match and likely have to stay relatively deep to protect your defence against him. It's the same for every elite pure striker which is why they have an influence on games even if they do nothing.

This is just not true.

 

[Joel Miller]

Messi had a few games against Atletico Madrid where I remember that happening. Barcelona only won 1 CL in his last 10 years of him there, so I'm sure there are plenty of examples in the knockout stage. Ronaldo was poor enough in the Champions League semi-final and final in 2015/16 but still won the Ballon d'Or.

That’s not true though is it, they won the CL in 2015, he left in 2021. And it’s also a meaningless stat because that’ll include seasons like 2019 where he’s battered Liverpool in the first leg, got them into a 3-0 lead (should have been 4 when he teed up Dembele) and he’s still lost out because of the complete capitulation of his defence away from home, which actually happened a few times.

Thats not the same as Haaland standing about for 90 minutes doing very little other than being comfortably baby sat by opposition centre half’s.

 

[giorno]

Thats not the same as Haaland standing about for 90 minutes doing very little other than being comfortably baby sat by opposition centre half’s.

I remember him standing around being comfortably baby sat by Manolas, Juan Jesus and Spurs legend Fazio in Rome though

 

[heraklion]

He wasn't ghosting in big games before this season though. Unless you arbitrarily decide to count 5 games as the only big games he played, a metric by which you could make the same claim against Messi

calling SFs and finals arbitrary selection of games in a treble winning season and then comparing a 10-touch per game player with League 2 caliber technique with Messi.

Haaland in 8 SFs and finals
0 goals
0 assists
7 big chances missed

City in those 8 games
12 goals

the ultimate savior of a treble winning team..

 

[heraklion]

He was hardly invisible in the game in which he fumbled a hat trick. Besides that? Ask Guardiola. I mean, we can speculate about hypotheticals all we want. At the end of the day City put together their two best CL ties of the Guardiola era with Haaland on the pitch

And Haaland had the best season of his life at City winning his first league title in a top league, and being a first time contender for tons of awards. What exactly does that show? He found things easier at Premier League than Bundesliga? oh, maybe just maybe playing for City who has been dominating the PL, the best league in the world, under the best manager in the world has something to do with it.

City was extremely unlucky against Real the prior season with Benzema deciding to have one of the best performances in the CL history ever and tons of luck, they dominated against Real, the UCL winner that year. And the year prior, they played the final. It was just a matter of time for them to win the CL. City is always around these stages, being a regular favorite for any trophy. What was Haaland doing before City in terms of league titles, Golden Shoes, Ballon D'ors etc, CL finals etc?

Imagine attributing the positive change in a team (probably the most dominant PL team ever before Haaland even arrived) to a single player that's known for his ghosting habits in the business end of the season as if other players' & Guardiola, rival teams' effect remains constant across different seasons..

The disrespect towards other City players is just crazy.. The guys had to bail out this ghost game in game out and he still gets the most credit for the trophies.. Really sorry for players like Foden, KDB, Rodri, Silva, Gundogan, Dias who are way more important to City and never received half the attention.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

That’s not true though is it, they won the CL in 2015, he left in 2021.

Read it again, won 1 CL between 2011/2012 and 2020/2021(2015), which is what I said.

 

[Joel Miller]

Read it again, won 1 CL between 2011/2012 and 2020/2021(2015), which is what I said.

That still wouldn’t be true then would it. It would fairer to say the won the CL twice during his last 9 years there. And again, it would be a meaningless stat because of the colossal difference in some of Messi’s performances on exiting, and Haaland’s in some of these bigger games. Only one is bailed out by his team mates.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

That still wouldn’t be true then would it. It would fairer to say the won the CL twice during his last 9 years there. And again, it would be a meaningless stat because of the colossal difference in some of Messi’s performances on exiting, and Haaland’s in some of these bigger games. Only one is bailed out by his team mates.

You have to go back 11 seasons to say twice. You’re wrong again but doesn’t matter. Messi had some bad games, it’s not irrelevant. Anyway it’s funny the same posters I would have argued alongside in favour of Messi in Messi-Ronaldo threads are so strongly against giving Haaland any credit at all, talking in the same language.

 

[Pickle85]

Haaland thread becoming about Messi because...

 

[Joel Miller]

You have to go back 11 seasons to say twice. You’re wrong again but doesn’t matter. Messi had some bad games, it’s not irrelevant. Anyway it’s funny the same posters I would have argued alongside in favour of Messi in Messi-Ronaldo threads are so strongly against giving Haaland any credit at all, talking in the same language.

That’s cool mate but you did say 10 years. Oh and he’s had some bad games. But I’ll say it again, you won’t find many occasions of him standing around like a traffic cone. He’ll be getting involved and chances are he’ll still have one or two moments of quality. You won’t get the complete no shows you can get with Haaland.

 

[SirBillNic]

That’s not true though is it, they won the CL in 2015, he left in 2021. And it’s also a meaningless stat because that’ll include seasons like 2019 where he’s battered Liverpool in the first leg, got them into a 3-0 lead (should have been 4 when he teed up Dembele) and he’s still lost out because of the complete capitulation of his defence away from home, which actually happened a few times.

Thats not the same as Haaland standing about for 90 minutes doing very little other than being comfortably baby sat by opposition centre half’s.

Maybe this is the key thing though. I definitely think that it looks like Haaland goes missing and doesn't do much. A striker like Kane won't be marked out of the game, he'll drop deeper to get involved. But if he's basically pinning one or two CBs in their place, then it's also creating more space for City's other players. And if they decide not to mark Haaland as aggressively, he's likely going to poach a goal. So perhaps it creates a difficult tactical choice for the opposing team. Whereas if you had someone like Alvarez, who's willing to leave the CBs and drop deeper to get involved in play, then it invites more of an aggressive press from the other team. But then that press could also create spaces to play through.

So it's a tough question to decide, but I would assume Guardiola has considered the costs and benefits more than any of us have and has decided that Haaland is worth having even when he seems to be uninvolved. I still think against a team like Arsenal, using Alvarez instead might work better. Tough call to make though.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

That’s cool mate but you did say 10 years. Oh and he’s had some bad games. But I’ll say it again, you won’t find many occasions of him standing around like a traffic cone. He’ll be getting involved and chances are he’ll still have one or two moments of quality. You won’t get the complete no shows you can get with Haaland.

L'Equipe gave Haaland a 3 for a poor performance against Real, well deserved, they gave Messi a 3 in the CL knockouts for the previous 2 seasons for doing nothing against Bayern and Real Madrid, also well deserved.

 

[Fobal]

This silly and faulty reviosionism...Jesus fecking christ this thread...

Erling doesn't deserve to be killed, yet he CLEARLY has to improve.
If he doesn't score he must play great as pivot (specially with that size and power) while holding the ball and even learning to distribute it with his head in case of an emergency City has to make a long high ball and gain time and cool down a game.
Yesterday Mbappe was bad like him, yet he tried more, while failing time and again. His mates didn't help him too much either but at least grabbing that awuful pass from Dembele made possible Dembele's goal after the rebound.
The thing with Erling is that if he touches very few balls and on top of that he does it in a bad way, he certainly becomes a passenger and just a positional cone, every player creates concern to the other team with just that, but it's clearly not enough.
...regarding finsihing every player has his ups and downs, he'll finde the net again soon and he'll have his periods were he'll scores more regularly on KO matches in CL's and such. And if it doesn't happen (sthg I'll never bet), he'll still be an specialist and a goalscrer of magnitude in his League and in other CL's matches not "tagged" big. It's almost imposible to imagine an scenario where he at elast isn't a prolific goaslcorer his whole carreer.

 

[Fobal]

L'Equipe gave Haaland a 3 for a poor performance against Real, well deserved, they gave Messi a 3 in the CL knockouts for the previous 2 seasons for doing nothing against Bayern and Real Madrid, also well deserved.

Not saying that these fellas didn't have or will have bad matches, but L' Equipe normally svcks big donkey balls .

 

[frostbite]

L'Equipe gave Haaland a 3 for a poor performance against Real, well deserved, they gave Messi a 3 in the CL knockouts for the previous 2 seasons for doing nothing against Bayern and Real Madrid, also well deserved.

L'Equipe was going to give a 3 to Nunez, too ... but Atalanta got there first!

 

[Joel Miller]

L'Equipe gave Haaland a 3 for a poor performance against Real, well deserved, they gave Messi a 3 in the CL knockouts for the previous 2 seasons for doing nothing against Bayern and Real Madrid, also well deserved.

Errr, okay…..

 

[giorno]

A striker like Kane won't be marked out of the game, he'll drop deeper to get involved.

Except for when he got marked out of the biggest game of his life

 

[Alpha 1]

And again I ask, if he had absolutely nothing to do with their performances last season compared to prior ones... how did they turn in dominant performances enroute to the final... with 10 men? Against Bayern and Real in particular?

We really need this sort of voodoo at United.

He was not THE reason they won the ucl. The main problem in previous seasons was their defending which they improved on tremendously; the number of goals they scored was very similar.

I think the bottom line is that as long as his all round game requires work, he will get criticism, and the people in this thread who are fans/staunch defenders of him (a surprising number for a Man United forum to be quite honest) will just have to accept that. Because even in this age of stats and clips, a large number of people still make their minds up on a player by watching them play football and then deciding if they think they are good or not. And once they've watched them enough, throwing numbers at these people simply won't work.

Majority of those hail from Norway. We have many fans from there.

I'm guessing @giorno @adexkola @Keanes Magic Hat are all from Norway or have some connection with the country. Otherwise, the defending against well-deserved criticism of Haaland’s poor allround play is truly bizarre on a United forum.

 

[Swordsman]

has the police found Haaland ? he was missing for 90 mins.