Numerical advantage - or is it?

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Anyone who caught the end of the Chelsea Burnley game there will have noticed that 9-man Chelsea put the sword to 11-man Burnley.

What is it with this phenomenon? It happens all the time that the team he goes a man down all of a sudden start playing better. A team with 8 outfield players should be passed off the park and forced to run around chasing shadows, particularly when they are chasing the game. One of the most used training ground routines is "rondo" or "man in the middle" as it's called in the UK, where the idea is a few defenders try and intercept the ball from a greater number of players whose goal is to just keep the ball.

With the advantage of one extra player, in theory it shouldn't be too difficult to organize your players so that when in possession, there is ALWAYS a man completely free to receive the pass. With two extra players, you can do the same but also leave one man upfront so that if the chasing team decide to go all guns blazing with a press, then the guy up top can be played in behind the defence at will.

Even when the team with fewer men does have the ball, every single player on that team can be man marked and afforded a yard of space. The most logical way for Chelsea to score today should have been individual brilliance, but it came from standing off and not staying with your man.

So why is it so common to see the team with the advantage struggle? It can't all be mental, these players and coaches spend so much time on tactical preparation that they must understand how to utilize an extra man or two properly and put games to bed.
 
This doesn't always occur. We've seen plenty of times that teams with 10 men sit deep because they can't come out of their own half. In the case of Chelsea vs Burnley, Chelsea has better players who can still make things happen.
 
It's all depended on the quality of the two teams playing. Burnley are not that good and looked to be taking their foot off the gas and were probably getting nervous after the two goals. That last second chance had me nervous. Thought that was going to find the back of the net. I'm sure Burnley was shitting themselves too.
 
In the majority of cases teams with a player sent off play significantly worse, and get significantly worse results, than they otherwise would. That pattern has only gotten stronger as the tactical and physical assets of teams have grown in the past 10-15 years. We're just more likely to remember the more memorable comebacks.
 
peridigm said:
It's all depended on the quality of the two teams playing. Burnley are not that good and looked to be taking their foot off the gas and were probably getting nervous after the two goals. That last second chance had me nervous. Thought that was going to find the back of the net. I'm sure Burnley was shitting themselves too.
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They've just scored 3 goals in the first half against last seasons league winners and looked by far the better side. I don't understand how they couldn't use that mindset for the whole game, realize what they are capable of and see it out smartly and comfortably.
 
Didn't see today's game, but what often happens is that teams with an extra man seem to decide that so long as they pass accurately and deliberately to keep the ball then they must have the advantage, and so they actually slow the game down. I think a team with an extra man should up the pace and make the other side work. But they rarely do.
 
We don't :mad:
Think of the monumental collapses against Bayern Munich and Real Madrid when we had a man sent off.
 
Think Chelsea's pitch is a little narrower than our's. That helps even things up. They would find it difficult to pull that off at Old Trafford.
 
Fitchett said:
We don't :mad:
Think of the monumental collapses against Bayern Munich and Real Madrid when we had a man sent off.
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And that's the way it should be. I just see the opposite happening way too often, and at all levels of football.
 
Kostur said:
Of course it is an advantage, it's just the question whether you can exploit it or not.
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Aye. And logic says it should be exploited every time, especially when you're already winning and in control of the game.

I can only speak for my own experience (pro youth Set up until 17) but we always spent some time playing mismatched games/training drills, to learn how to make the most of space. It wasn't necessarily dubbed as "this is how you play when you've got more players on the field" but the principles of what we were trying to accomplish should still apply in a match situation, when the other team loses a man or two. I suspect that similar exercises take place at every professional training ground in the country, so I'm just at a loss as to why when the opportunity presents itself, they don't revert to what they've learned in practice, which is how to keep the ball and make angles to receive the ball that keeps the disadvantaged team chasing the ball.
 
I think the bigger issue is that Burnley were 3-0 up. Not trying to be funny but it's not often they get to that stage, away from home against one of the top teams. They weren't sure whether to sit back, or press forward and kind of got stuck in the middle. It was uncharted territory for them and it showed. It would be completely different if we were Burnley for example, or even if Chelsea were 3-0 up today.
 
Barcelona sometimes benefits from a clear numerical advantage*



*referee
 
shield said:
Think Chelsea's pitch is a little narrower than our's. That helps even things up. They would find it difficult to pull that off at Old Trafford.
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The Old Trafford pitch is 1 meter wider and 2 meters longer than Stamford Bridge. I can't imagine that would have a significant impact.
 
Arbitrium said:
So why is it so common to see the team with the advantage struggle? It can't all be mental, these players and coaches spend so much time on tactical preparation that they must understand how to utilize an extra man or two properly and put games to bed.
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1. The out-numbered team tends to be much more defensive + solidarity factor
2. The other team has the responsibility to run the show against a defensive team, less space + stress factor
 
The key is for the team with the extra player to keep possession and move the ball around quickly. Burnley can't keep possession so they sit back which is always dangerous against a team with quality players.
 
If the team leading with 11 men sit deep and allow the team with 9 men to come on to them it negates the numerical difference. It then becomes about the quality of players regardless of numbers.
 
Fully Fledged said:
If the team leading with 11 men sit deep and allow the team with 9 men to come on to them it negates the numerical difference. It then becomes about the quality of players regardless of numbers.
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That's the thing, there's no need to sit deep. There's absolutely no way that playing against 9 outfield players is more difficult than 10. Teams should be smartening up, exploiting the space and using attack as the best form of defence. At no point against 8 outfield players should a team be unable to control a game.
 
Arbitrium said:
That's the thing, there's no need to sit deep. There's absolutely no way that playing against 9 outfield players is more difficult than 10. Teams should be smartening up, exploiting the space and using attack as the best form of defence. At no point against 8 outfield players should a team be unable to control a game.
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Yeah but when you are Burnley and you are winning against Chelsea at Chelsea it's hard not to think we hold what we have, especially when you only got something like 7 points away form home last season.
 
Fully Fledged said:
Yeah but when you are Burnley and you are winning against Chelsea at Chelsea it's hard not to think we hold what we have, especially when you only got something like 7 points away form home last season.
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It may very well be a mental thing. Repetition in training has to come into effect then, as it's drummed into these players how to keep the ball from an opponent when you're playing against less men. I understand the emotion takes over but when you've worked on something so much and practiced it for literally hundreds/thousands of hours, you SHOULD be able to apply it in a game situation.

We are 3-1 up against 8 outfield players, let's sit back and soak it up what a result this is

Versus

We are 3-1 up against 8 players, we can tire the feck out of them by easily keeping the ball and maybe get a 4th.

Given all variables, the second option should be the one that teams go for, especially when they are elite PL footballers.
 
Arbitrium said:
It may very well be a mental thing. Repetition in training has to come into effect then, as it's drummed into these players how to keep the ball from an opponent when you're playing against less men. I understand the emotion takes over but when you've worked on something so much and practiced it for literally hundreds/thousands of hours, you SHOULD be able to apply it in a game situation.

We are 3-1 up against 8 outfield players, let's sit back and soak it up what a result this is

Versus

We are 3-1 up against 8 players, we can tire the feck out of them by easily keeping the ball and maybe get a 4th.

Given all variables, the second option should be the one that teams go for, especially when they are elite PL footballers.
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While I agree. I understand that players are human and sitting back when you are 2 goals to the good seems like the best option to get the points at the time.

I know it's not but I understand why players would think it is.
 
Fully Fledged said:
While I agree. I understand that players are human and sitting back when you are 2 goals to the good seems like the best option to get the points at the time.

I know it's not but I understand why players would think it is.
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Maybe teams just need to work more on the mental aspect then. With such an onus on stats these days, you'd think that they'd know the likelihood of certain things in certain situations.
 
Arbitrium said:
Maybe teams just need to work more on the mental aspect then. With such an onus on stats these days, you'd think that they'd know the likelihood of certain things in certain situations.
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Yeah but how often will a team be playing a team that is so much better than them on paper with only 9 players.

The idea that Burnley prepare to be 2 players and 2 goals up against Chelsea isn't realistic. It's a once in a lifetime situation where you are thinking what the hell do we do now. I can understand panic setting in.
 
Is it that common?

I'd have been surprised in Burnley didn't concede. After all, and this is in no way meant to be disrespectful, it's Burnley. Side with a shit defence sits back and invites a team with great attacking talent to come forward. What else is going to happen.
 
Fully Fledged said:
Yeah but how often will a team be playing a team that is so much better than them on paper with only 9 players.

The idea that Burnley prepare to be 2 players and 2 goals up against Chelsea isn't realistic. It's a once in a lifetime situation where you are thinking what the hell do we do now. I can understand panic setting in.
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It just needs Cool heads and a bit of leadership. Revert to what you know and chances are you'll be fine. Chasing teams can only chase the ball so much before it has a negative effect on the team and the crowd. I can understand a few moments of panic, just think it should be a bit easier to steady the ship and see out a convincing victory.
 
Arbitrium said:
It just needs Cool heads and a bit of leadership. Revert to what you know and chances are you'll be fine. Chasing teams can only chase the ball so much before it has a negative effect on the team and the crowd. I can understand a few moments of panic, just think it should be a bit easier to steady the ship and see out a convincing victory.
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It should but thankfully football it's that clinical.
 
10 men Man City vs Everton
Rearing its head again. Everton playing like they have 8 men FFS
 
I don't get it. Why is Everton having such troubles creating chances with a man more for the whole 2nd half?
 
This is a nonsense thread. City probably would have won 3-1 if they had their full 11 all match.
 
Everton are awfully pathetic, we've seen this many times with this team.

Burnley in the second half against Chelsea was genuinely more surprising than tonight.
 
POSSESSION. Keep the fecking ball and make the team with 10 run around. Sitting in your box won't ever be the best way to take advantage of a numerical advantage.
 
VorZakone said:
I don't get it. Why is Everton having such troubles creating chances with a man more for the whole 2nd half?
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Because they're sitting so deep hoping to catch City on the counter.

Didnt work out all that well for them
 
I think it can inspire the team sometimes. In a normal game of football, you often are relying on other players to do their jobs (the strikers and forward players). With 10 men, that goes out the window a bit. Everyone has to start playing "Total Football" defenders have to act like midfielders and midfielders have to act life forwards and forwards have to act life strikers... And you know, Total Football is actually a really good way to play

Constantly being forced to keep your shape, follow the man, keep your shape, defend, make the right positions.. it's exhausting. Total Football can be liberating. Of course you still have to keep your shape when they have the ball and defend well, if anything that is more important, but everyone has to use their initiative and take their chances.

Gary Cahill would be a competent midfielder he'd love to play there. Fernandinho can be a box to box midfielder. etc.

Or maybe City would have won 3-1 without the sending off.
 
It's something that obviously changes the whole psychology of the team and can either completely deflate and demoralise them, or in the case of City make them play twice as hard. This isn't the first instance where I've seen them do something like this. The harder the going gets, the more determined they become to get something from the game. It was much more even when it was 11 vs 11, but having Walker sent off made it a mismatch - in City's favour.
 
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