Exactly!For people interested in this debate, who consider Obama a bad president, the question is, who was a good president?
I'm more interested in his ranking. I'd rank him in the Lyndon Johnson tier.
He could've been much better if he didn't squander his first two years attempting to play ball with the Republicans. His generally weak and feckless foreign policy was also a problem in terms of dealing with Putin, ISIS, the Arab Spring, Afghanistan etc.For people interested in this debate, who consider Obama a bad president, the question is, who was a good president?
I'm more interested in his ranking. I'd rank him in the Lyndon Johnson tier.
Yeah but you're a neo-conHe could've been much better if he didn't squander his first two years attempting to play ball with the Republicans. His generally weak and feckless foreign policy was also a problem in terms of dealing with Putin, ISIS, the Arab Spring, Afghanistan etc.
Giving weapons to ISIS wasn't particularly smart, to be fair.Yeah but you're a neo-con
I saw very little wrong with Obama's philosophy regarding America's role in the world.
Obama wasn't exactly a pacifist either - as in, you're not likely to find many on the hard left who thought he was a good foreign policy president.Yeah but you're a neo-con
I saw very little wrong with Obama's philosophy regarding America's role in the world.
To an extent, but I don't think that's his fault alone. There was a genuine element of racism in Trump's campaign and a backlash against Obama being the first black President that benefited Trump greatly, and I'd say the reason Trump won was more due to the individual candidate he was up against since most others would've beaten him. By the same token Obama should've probably endorsed someone other than Hilary but I'm not completely sure that was in his control. Although yes, on the whole there's a lot more he could've done as President.A big part of his legacy is Donald Trump and the world we have now.
To be fair, you could probably make an argument that it was only in the latter years of his Presidency that Putin and Russia became such a big problem. While Russia was obviously a corrupt state US attempts to steer it in certain directions didn't really work in the 90s because a lot of its problems were systemic, and I imagine most people would have accepted the notion that they were best left alone so long as they played ball internationally. Obviously Crimea changed all of that though.He could've been much better if he didn't squander his first two years attempting to play ball with the Republicans. His generally weak and feckless foreign policy was also a problem in terms of dealing with Putin, ISIS, the Arab Spring, Afghanistan etc.
Then fair enough.There are no good presidents. This country is rotten to the core. But that doesnt make Obama good.
A couple points in response:To an extent, but I don't think that's his fault alone. There was a genuine element of racism in Trump's campaign and a backlash against Obama being the first black President that benefited Trump greatly, and I'd say the reason Trump won was more due to the individual candidate he was up against since most others would've beaten him. By the same token Obama should've probably endorsed someone other than Hilary but I'm not completely sure that was in his control. Although yes, on the whole there's a lot more he could've done as President.
Not at all.Giving weapons to ISIS wasn't particularly smart, to be fair.
I largely agree with a lot of what you've said in your second point. But I don't think it's absolute either way in regards to what won Trump the election: even plenty of those people who had were dissatisfied with the economy were simultaneously only interested in their own economic status at the expense of minorities and migrants, and many of them were strongly attracted to Trump's racially-fueled rhetoric. You often saw that in how certain people would say Trump was going to help real Americans, with real essentially being a synonym for white. More efforts to tackle inequality from Obama would've prevented a Trump win, but by the same token a campaign that didn't attempt to pander towards racial hatred might not have been as effective as Trump's.A couple points in response:
1) Obama cleared the field for Hillary and bears responsibility for helping pick the only candidate who could have lost to Trump
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-barack-obama-repeatedly-discouraged-running/
2) I think it's wrong to see Trump's supporters as just a racist backlash. Some of them sure. But a lot of them are people who rightly recognized that the elites who run the country are full of shit and the economy is rigged. For a lot of people, the financial crisis was the trigger for that realization. The bankers destroyed the country and they got bailed out. Millions of Americans got foreclosed on and none of them got bailed out. And it happened under Obama. Many people realized that the rules and the norms they'd been told about their whole life didnt exist and the ones that did only applied to help rich people. The natural conclusion of that realization is voting for a candidate that doesnt care about norms or institutions. Additionally, so many peoples lives were worse in 2016 than they were in 2008. And what exactly did Obama do to help them?
Couldn't it be argued though that if someone like Bernie was similarly able to reduce inequality greatly and improve the lives of many working Americans that he would have been a good, albeit flawed President? There's surely a middle-ground there in that there have been many previous Presidents with dubious records on various matters who have nevertheless implemented key policies that have improved the lives of many Americans. Albeit they've sometimes only done it under immense pressure from said groups, but still...better that than nothing at all.No. I suspect that even if we got Bernie elected he would use drone strikes and look the other way when intelligence agencies torture.
So what though? All Republicans are racist. If Obama didnt realize this then hes even more the fool. It's pointless to guess what might have happened if they didnt run a racist campaign. Conservatism is an inherently racist ideology. Fighting it requires recognizing and defeating that. Obama failed.I largely agree with a lot of what you've said in your second point. But I don't think it's absolute either way in regards to what won Trump the election: even plenty of those people who had were dissatisfied with the economy were simultaneously only interested in their own economic status at the expense of minorities and migrants, and many of them were strongly attracted to Trump's racially-fueled rhetoric. You often saw that in how certain people would say Trump was going to help real Americans, with real essentially being a synonym for white. More efforts to tackle inequality from Obama would've prevented a Trump win, but by the same token a campaign that didn't attempt to pander towards racial hatred might not have been as effective as Trump's.
I'm not willing to judge the most powerful people in the world by the same standard as a neighbor with a drinking problem. They all signed up to do the job, knowing full well what it entails. You cant be a good person and drone strike apartment buildings. You just cant.Couldn't it be argued though that if someone like Bernie was similarly able to reduce inequality greatly and improve the lives of many working Americans that he would have been a good, albeit flawed President? There's surely a middle-ground there in that there have been many previous Presidents with dubious records on various matters who have nevertheless implemented key policies that have improved the lives of many Americans. Albeit they've sometimes only done it under immense pressure from said groups, but still...better that than nothing at all.
Trump's campaign was quite evidently more blatantly racist than various previous ones though which often utilised the Southern Strategy of tacitly endorsing possibilities which harmed minorities while similarly denouncing and distancing themselves from various racist groups that Trump has at times welcomed with open arms.So what though? All Republicans are racist. If Obama didnt realize this then hes even more the fool. It's pointless to guess what might have happened if they didnt run a racist campaign. Conservatism is an inherently racist ideology. Fighting it requires recognizing and defeating that. Obama failed.
But what's your point? Anyone mildly observant knew this years ago. I dont think Obama playing Charlie Brown is a point in his favor.Trump's campaign was quite evidently more blatantly racist than various previous ones though which often utilised the Southern Strategy of tacitly endorsing possibilities which harmed minorities while similarly denouncing and distancing themselves from various racist groups that Trump has at times welcomed with open arms.
The taller than Mickey Rooney Award.Best in my lifetime (Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, the Orange Buffon). Republicans obstructed far more than what was common, and so it was hard for him to do much work.
His policy in Syria/Libya was very bad IMO.
Reagan (I know, but from a conservative perspective he fits the criteria). Clinton too.The taller than Mickey Rooney Award.
Since Carter, the US has not had a President with the best of intentions and not since LBJ has a President done more good than harm (and even then Vietnam is a noose around LBJ).
I was thinking from an objective historical perspective for working and middle class. No doubt ﹰReagan and ﹰClinton were good for the rich elitesReagan (I know, but from a conservative perspective he fits the criteria). Clinton too.
Let's discuss details then. Which presidents do you think were goodDon't buy this "never been a good president" shite. As a progressive, you have to accept that things were massively different politically and socially back in time. Everything needs to be judged in context. That said, Obama was not a good one.
Oh, right, as you were then.I was thinking from an objective historical perspective for working and middle class. No doubt ﹰReagan and ﹰClinton were good for the rich elites