Official: FC Barcelona charged with Corruption over payments to former referees chief | UEFA open investigation

[The Purley King]

Since I'm a pedantic asshole I'm going to go back to this.

I looked at the stats in detail and the explanation is actually quite simple. The average number of penalties per game from 1948 to 1952 is 0.332. Then it drops, to 0.193 the next four years (when Rreal Madrid has a good streak). It remains low the next 14 years, at 0.177. During this period Real Madrid and Athletic both have good streaks. Then the number starts going up again, and over the next 12 years the rate is 0.313 penalties per game.

So it's all quite simple. Penalties as a whole became less likely. This increased the odds of teams going without conceding a penalty for long streams, which then happened multiple times. Once the frequency of penalties increased, we stopped seeing this.

This is, however, not true for Barcelona's streak in the late 2010s. The average number of penalties per game from 2006 to 2022 was 0.307. The average number of penalties during the seasons in which Barcelona did not concede any, was 0.290. Basically no difference.

So this really just supports the idea that there's something very odd about Barcelona's streak!

Excuse the statistics in this post, but I wanted to demonstrate how unlikely it is for Barca to not concede a penalty of this number (78) of games.
I'll show 2 scenarios, one where it is equally likely that Barca are awarded a penalty against them as the opposition and another scenario where Barca were half as likely to have a penalty against them as their opponents.
The maths is as follows: Each match can be considered a binomial event - i.e. either Barca had a penalty awarded against them, or they didn't. A binomial distribution calculation tells you the probability that the observed events were as a result of chance alone. For example, the probability of tossing an unbiased coin 10 times and getting exactly 0 heads is 0.0977%. We apply the same method to Barca penalties.

Scenario 1. Using Iker's stats, Barca had a probability of 0.290/2 = 0.145 of conceding a penalty in any one particular game.
Using an online binomial distribution calculator (I used this one: https://www.statisticshowto.com/calculators/binomial-distribution-calculator/ but there are loads out there), there is a probability of 0.000494% (1 in 202,602) of Barca conceding exactly 0 penalties in that time.

Scenario 2. Probability of a penalty in the game is 0.290, but Barca only half as likely to concede one as their opponents, so their chances of conceding a pen in any particular game is 0.290/3 = 0.0967
Probability of Barca conceding exactly 0 penalties in 78 games = 0.0360% (1 in 2,779)

Suffice to say, when you know what Barca were doing whilst this streak continued, the obvious conclusion is......... obvious.

 

[CampNou]

Excuse the statistics in this post, but I wanted to demonstrate how unlikely it is for Barca to not concede a penalty of this number (78) of games.
I'll show 2 scenarios, one where it is equally likely that Barca are awarded a penalty against them as the opposition and another scenario where Barca were half as likely to have a penalty against them as their opponents.
The maths is as follows: Each match can be considered a binomial event - i.e. either Barca had a penalty awarded against them, or they didn't. A binomial distribution calculation tells you the probability that the observed events were as a result of chance alone. For example, the probability of tossing an unbiased coin 10 times and getting exactly 0 heads is 0.0977%. We apply the same method to Barca penalties.

Scenario 1. Using Iker's stats, Barca had a probability of 0.290/2 = 0.145 of conceding a penalty in any one particular game.
Using an online binomial distribution calculator (I used this one: https://www.statisticshowto.com/calculators/binomial-distribution-calculator/ but there are loads out there), there is a probability of 0.000494% (1 in 202,602) of Barca conceding exactly 0 penalties in that time.

Scenario 2. Probability of a penalty in the game is 0.290, but Barca only half as likely to concede one as their opponents, so their chances of conceding a pen in any particular game is 0.290/3 = 0.0967
Probability of Barca conceding exactly 0 penalties in 78 games = 0.0360% (1 in 2,779)

Suffice to say, when you know what Barca were doing whilst this streak continued, the obvious conclusion is......... obvious.

You are wrong. That is not the real probability. The real scenario is closer to the 2nd in historical terms by the way (in terms of penalty ratio).

You are calculating the probability of that happening selecting a match AT RANDOM during Negreira payments (to make it fairer and focus in the "suspicious era"). That is also the probability of getting a streak starting NOW.

However, in those 20 years, you could start the streak at any giving moment. You would start in the 6th date of 2005 or in the 37th of the 2014 season. You have plenty of opportunities. Getting a streak like that in 20 years is way easier, obviously.

There is only one match in 20 years (760 games) where Barca started a streak like that. Considering that 1/3000 is closer to reality than the other, it is not that unlikely to see that streak.



For example, Manchester United went this century without a penalty against them for 85 games. I'm going to use 0.25 pens per game for Premier (instead of 0.29 as LaLiga)
1 / (1-0.25/3)**85 ~ 1 in 1629. What do you think about this?

 

[GatoLoco]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter whether we think those numbers are or are not product of Negreira's influence. The most important thing is Barcelona paid the Vicepresident of the Referees Association for almost 20 years. The sole attempt to do such a thing is as serious as it gets.

 

[Acrobat7]

I am not the only one who thinks that Barca‘s PR agency is paying for an account posting in this thread, or am I?

 

[Krakenzero]

We agree in that some don't want to know the truth, we probably disagree if who are not interested in the truth because they already made their mind.

I'm going to give me a "last opportunity".

I will post some interesting historical data...



Not "off the books". The reason this is known is because payments are in the books and those services were taxed. The problem is the "nature" of those payments and the services, which is, at least, unclear.


I can give some interesting/funny data about the "neutrality" in the history of LaLiga so you have some extra context. By the way, "Villar's conspiracy" is a thing that comes from Real Madrid, not Barca.


If you are interested in the historical "neutrality" of the Spanish League... some facts...

And before giving some details... THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NEGREIRA, AND IF IT IS PROVED THAT THE CLUB WAS CORRUPTING THE COMPETITION ITSELF SHOULD BE PUNISHED, AND SOME PEOPLE SHOULD GO TO JAIL.

- Presidents of the Referees board
More than half of the presidents of the referees (Comite Nacional de Arbitros until 1993, then Comite Tecnico de Arbitros) were members, members of the board of ex-players or Real Madrid. I'm not saying they were "madridistas" (some weren't members but recognized they were Real Madrid fans, I'm not counting those), most of them board members/explayers, not just people who paid their seat in the stadium. I'm talking about the referees board, not another organization where it makes sense that members of the teams are involved, I'm talking about the referees. What do you think this forum would think if most of the presidents of referees of England were directly involved in Liverpool?

- Comite de Competicion (and similar bodies regarding "justice" in LaLiga)
The majority of the "Comite de Competicion" (they decide the sanctions) are/were Real Madrid members. There are currently 3 members, the "head" and 2 extra. What do you think this forum would think if most of the "Justice comitees" of the Premer League were directly involved in Liverpool?

For example, the previous president (who resigned in 2018) is a Real Madrid member. Barcelona asked him to be fired multiple times, the last one after the independence "elections". He wrote multiple insulting tweets, like a troll. While I agree in the "message", the tweets themselves were ridiculous from a grown man. Another member of the Comite de Competicion was a Real Madrid member too. One of the last decisions before he "resigned" (more or less at the same time as Negreira btw) was to sanction 4 games to Sergi Roberto for this action: youtube.com/ watch?v=IDbGnyMoR28

This has been ongoing for decades. In fact, in the prosecutor documents, they tell that one thing Barca would want from Negreira was helping to avoid that NOT ALL MEMBERS ARE FROM MADRID (they are not actually from Madrid, the city, but there is a majority of Real Madrid members deciding).

This body, this year, has taken some "surprising" decisions... for example:
- Lewandowski was given 3 games for touching his nose after a red card: youtube... IDbGnyMoR28?t=67 (i cannot post it)
- Gaya (4 games): "(...) well, in the end it's a bit like the trend (...) we've had this season, they have to warn him about the very clear penalty, as is happening to us this year, the referee has seen it and (...) he didn't want to whistle it, but we will fight against everything (...)
- Canales (4 games): "I'm the captain and I already said I wasn't going to talk to him because it's not appropriate, that expulsion was premeditated and that's not part of the game. I have tried to avoid any conversation."
- Ancelotti (nothing): "It's pretty clear. It just doesn't touch him in the hand. I've talked to Marco, it hits him in the chest. He (the referee) invented it. This situation is two points off."
- Ancelotti (nothing): "Do you think it was offside? Yes, yes... we have to accept it. But I'm left with the doubt. There is nothing for sure, but we have the right to doubt".

So you cannot touch your nose, you cannot say that the referee saw a pen but didn't whistle, but you can say that the ref invented a penalty and you can doubt about a clear offside.

More random examples about the power Real Madrid members held in deciding bodies:
https://elpais.com/diario/1992/06/07/deportes/707868008_850215.html
Real Madrid paid Sevilla for getting a good result against Real Sociedad. I'm not against paying for winning, although it is illegal. But that is not the interesting part (it explains how the payments were made, etc.).
The best part is: The Competition Committee couldn't meet Luis de Carlos, president of Real Madrid, despite several summonses. Madrid was fined 2,600,000 pesetas, which it did not pay when its appeal was successful before the Superior Disciplinary Committee, presided at the time by Francisco Martínez Fresneda, then a member of Real Madrid.
So, Real is summoned and they don't even go, they are fined, and a member of the team retires the fine. That's all folks.

https://elpais.com/diario/1982/12/08/deportes/408150007_850215.html?event_log=go
The presidents of the Sports Disciplinary and Appeals Committees are members of Real Madrid.

- Statistics
Barcelona went 78 games without a penalty. You will probably know, as some posters here remember on each post. It is actually a total surprise. And it is, because those rallies without penalties usually only happen if your shirt is white...
Real Madrid has been 3 times with at least 78 games in a row without a penalty against them. Athletic was also 80.
https://as.com/opinion/2018/03/02/portada/1519995164_727076.html

The "saldo arbitral" as you will hear these days
I'm to repeat (as I said) that that number doesn't prove a thing. It is ridiculous from a serious statistical analysis. But if you want to take it as the ground truth of everything... well... some "interesting data":

- FC Barcelona has SCORED MORE goals than Real Madrid in the history of LaLiga.
- FC Barcelona has RECEIVED LESS goals than Real Madrid in the history of LaLiga.

However, Real Madrid has enjoyed WAY MORE PENALTIES than Barca.
Real Madrid has received WAY LESS PENALTIES than Barca.

Real has +~260 (in penalties) in the history
Barca has +~160 (in penalties) in the history
Atletico has +~160 (in penalties) in the history (they have been 6-7 years in the 2nd Division)

It means that is more common for Real Madrid to score from the penalty point, even if they score less goals in total.
It means that is less common for Real Madrid to receive from the penalty point, even if they have received more goals in total.
Real Madrid has also better numbers regarding red cards (in favour, and against).

Is ok to talk about the "saldo arbitral" in the history of LaLiga knowing that the head of the referees and the justice members were controlled/had a majority of members of Real Madrid through the history?

Do you think this is "neutral"? Do you think United fans would consider this situation "neutral" if the heads of the referees/justices bodies were members of Liverpool 90% of the time?

The system itself has been madridista most of the history without any doubt. It is laughable to deny it. And I'm going to say that I don't care, as it doesn't affect my personal life, I just watch some football games.

Madrid cheating or not isn't evidence that exonerates Barcelona.

For the record, I personally think that the Spanish league is historically corrupt and constantly rigged in favor of its two biggest/richest clubs. Probably some years favoring Barcelona more, others Madrid. Main differences are A) Madrid doesn't sell an image of something they aren't (they are pretty much the football club representation of a lazy, rich, scumbag family that believe they have a divine right to everything and act accordingly), and B) they didn't get caught. So there's that.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

It takes a particular type of person to hold up the mirror of history, point to huge discrepancies in the past as evidence of corruption and then, without an iota of shame, attempt to exonerate their own behaviour when confronted with precisely the same sort of discrepancy. Especially when that discrepancy has the added spice of a demonstrable system of payments to the vice president of the responsible organisation.

Like, my God, at least have some self respect.

 

[GatoLoco]

Medina Cantalejo is the Referees Association president currently. He said some weeks ago nobody knew what Negreira's role in the Association was. Today we know he hired his son as a coach when he was a referee.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[georgipep]

Chronological evolution of Barca fans excuses for paying Negreira:

-Nothing is gonna happen. There is no proof.
-This news are artificially created from Madrid. Nobody outside of Madrid cares about it. Nobody outside of Spain believes in it.
-They were just paying for ref reports.
-They were being blackmailed by Negreira.
-Barca is gonna demand everyone for defamation and get enough money for Mbappe and the new stadium.
-If UEFA kicks us out from European competitions we will demand them.
-Ok, there were no reports. Barca was paying for compensation against Madrid who are the true evil.

This Negreira case and the United sale debates are such an "in your face" proof that people will resort to all kinds of whataboutism to defend their total lack of moral and principles...

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Especially when that discrepancy has the added spice of a demonstrable system of payments to the vice president of the responsible organisation.

This is what's annoying about the whole thing. Barcelona fans here seem to think there is nothing wrong with it (despite paying some lip service to the idea), so they show up here with zero humility and with an incredibly arrogant attitude.

I can undertand someone like CampNou advising for caution and explaining that two years without a penalty is not irrefutable evidence of wrongdoing (which is true!). But they are not doing that. Instead, they are coming here with a snarky attitude to complain about Real Madrid ("those rallies without penalties usually only happen if your shirt is white...") and acting like everyone else has lost their minds.

You cannot get caught doing something incredibly unethical and then try to go on the offensive with a cocky atttitude, it just doesn't work. Read the room!

 

[Mr.Fantastic]

Paying acting official top dollar. Completely dominating Madrid domestically for more than 2 decades. I mean, it seems those "board members" from Madrid are doing extremely shitty job unlike mr. Negreira.

Cule zealots are the best.

 

[Niemans]

We agree in that some don't want to know the truth, we probably disagree if who are not interested in the truth because they already made their mind.

I'm going to give me a "last opportunity".

I will post some interesting historical data...



Not "off the books". The reason this is known is because payments are in the books and those services were taxed. The problem is the "nature" of those payments and the services, which is, at least, unclear.


I can give some interesting/funny data about the "neutrality" in the history of LaLiga so you have some extra context. By the way, "Villar's conspiracy" is a thing that comes from Real Madrid, not Barca.


If you are interested in the historical "neutrality" of the Spanish League... some facts...

And before giving some details... THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NEGREIRA, AND IF IT IS PROVED THAT THE CLUB WAS CORRUPTING THE COMPETITION ITSELF SHOULD BE PUNISHED, AND SOME PEOPLE SHOULD GO TO JAIL.

- Presidents of the Referees board
More than half of the presidents of the referees (Comite Nacional de Arbitros until 1993, then Comite Tecnico de Arbitros) were members, members of the board of ex-players or Real Madrid. I'm not saying they were "madridistas" (some weren't members but recognized they were Real Madrid fans, I'm not counting those), most of them board members/explayers, not just people who paid their seat in the stadium. I'm talking about the referees board, not another organization where it makes sense that members of the teams are involved, I'm talking about the referees. What do you think this forum would think if most of the presidents of referees of England were directly involved in Liverpool?

- Comite de Competicion (and similar bodies regarding "justice" in LaLiga)
The majority of the "Comite de Competicion" (they decide the sanctions) are/were Real Madrid members. There are currently 3 members, the "head" and 2 extra. What do you think this forum would think if most of the "Justice comitees" of the Premer League were directly involved in Liverpool?

For example, the previous president (who resigned in 2018) is a Real Madrid member. Barcelona asked him to be fired multiple times, the last one after the independence "elections". He wrote multiple insulting tweets, like a troll. While I agree in the "message", the tweets themselves were ridiculous from a grown man. Another member of the Comite de Competicion was a Real Madrid member too. One of the last decisions before he "resigned" (more or less at the same time as Negreira btw) was to sanction 4 games to Sergi Roberto for this action: youtube.com/ watch?v=IDbGnyMoR28

This has been ongoing for decades. In fact, in the prosecutor documents, they tell that one thing Barca would want from Negreira was helping to avoid that NOT ALL MEMBERS ARE FROM MADRID (they are not actually from Madrid, the city, but there is a majority of Real Madrid members deciding).

This body, this year, has taken some "surprising" decisions... for example:
- Lewandowski was given 3 games for touching his nose after a red card: youtube... IDbGnyMoR28?t=67 (i cannot post it)
- Gaya (4 games): "(...) well, in the end it's a bit like the trend (...) we've had this season, they have to warn him about the very clear penalty, as is happening to us this year, the referee has seen it and (...) he didn't want to whistle it, but we will fight against everything (...)
- Canales (4 games): "I'm the captain and I already said I wasn't going to talk to him because it's not appropriate, that expulsion was premeditated and that's not part of the game. I have tried to avoid any conversation."
- Ancelotti (nothing): "It's pretty clear. It just doesn't touch him in the hand. I've talked to Marco, it hits him in the chest. He (the referee) invented it. This situation is two points off."
- Ancelotti (nothing): "Do you think it was offside? Yes, yes... we have to accept it. But I'm left with the doubt. There is nothing for sure, but we have the right to doubt".

So you cannot touch your nose, you cannot say that the referee saw a pen but didn't whistle, but you can say that the ref invented a penalty and you can doubt about a clear offside.

More random examples about the power Real Madrid members held in deciding bodies:
https://elpais.com/diario/1992/06/07/deportes/707868008_850215.html
Real Madrid paid Sevilla for getting a good result against Real Sociedad. I'm not against paying for winning, although it is illegal. But that is not the interesting part (it explains how the payments were made, etc.).
The best part is: The Competition Committee couldn't meet Luis de Carlos, president of Real Madrid, despite several summonses. Madrid was fined 2,600,000 pesetas, which it did not pay when its appeal was successful before the Superior Disciplinary Committee, presided at the time by Francisco Martínez Fresneda, then a member of Real Madrid.
So, Real is summoned and they don't even go, they are fined, and a member of the team retires the fine. That's all folks.

https://elpais.com/diario/1982/12/08/deportes/408150007_850215.html?event_log=go
The presidents of the Sports Disciplinary and Appeals Committees are members of Real Madrid.

- Statistics
Barcelona went 78 games without a penalty. You will probably know, as some posters here remember on each post. It is actually a total surprise. And it is, because those rallies without penalties usually only happen if your shirt is white...
Real Madrid has been 3 times with at least 78 games in a row without a penalty against them. Athletic was also 80.
https://as.com/opinion/2018/03/02/portada/1519995164_727076.html

The "saldo arbitral" as you will hear these days
I'm to repeat (as I said) that that number doesn't prove a thing. It is ridiculous from a serious statistical analysis. But if you want to take it as the ground truth of everything... well... some "interesting data":

- FC Barcelona has SCORED MORE goals than Real Madrid in the history of LaLiga.
- FC Barcelona has RECEIVED LESS goals than Real Madrid in the history of LaLiga.

However, Real Madrid has enjoyed WAY MORE PENALTIES than Barca.
Real Madrid has received WAY LESS PENALTIES than Barca.

Real has +~260 (in penalties) in the history
Barca has +~160 (in penalties) in the history
Atletico has +~160 (in penalties) in the history (they have been 6-7 years in the 2nd Division)

It means that is more common for Real Madrid to score from the penalty point, even if they score less goals in total.
It means that is less common for Real Madrid to receive from the penalty point, even if they have received more goals in total.
Real Madrid has also better numbers regarding red cards (in favour, and against).

Is ok to talk about the "saldo arbitral" in the history of LaLiga knowing that the head of the referees and the justice members were controlled/had a majority of members of Real Madrid through the history?

Do you think this is "neutral"? Do you think United fans would consider this situation "neutral" if the heads of the referees/justices bodies were members of Liverpool 90% of the time?

The system itself has been madridista most of the history without any doubt. It is laughable to deny it. And I'm going to say that I don't care, as it doesn't affect my personal life, I just watch some football games.

No matter what you put in, it's a waste of time. When you put arguments based on information they all disappear, or they say they don't need to see those things or they change to something else. They will even tell you that you are a Barcelona PR account.

And don't tell them about José Plaza and other things. Good luck.

 

[Wibble]

Trump level of delusion.

 

[Mr.Fantastic]

No matter what you put in, it's a waste of time. When you put arguments based on information they all disappear, or they say they don't need to see those things or they change to something else. They will even tell you that you are a Barcelona PR account.

And don't tell them about José Plaza and other things. Good luck.

José Plaza said Madrid paid for neutrality.

 

[Mr.Fantastic]

If my math is correct and Barca has been "paying for neutrality" since 90s.... They have won more than half of their La Liga trophies in that period.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

When you put arguments based on information they all disappear.

People made dozens of reasonable arguments against you. You claimed you didn't have time to read all the posts and then disappeared from this thread, where you've only posted 3 times since the 13th of March.

 

[CampNou]

This is what's annoying about the whole thing. Barcelona fans here seem to think there is nothing wrong with it (despite paying some lip service to the idea), so they show up here with zero humility and with an incredibly arrogant attitude.

I can undertand someone like CampNou advising for caution and explaining that two years without a penalty is not irrefutable evidence of wrongdoing (which is true!). But they are not doing that. Instead, they are coming here with a snarky attitude to complain about Real Madrid ("those rallies without penalties usually only happen if your shirt is white...") and acting like everyone else has lost their minds.

You cannot get caught doing something incredibly unethical and then try to go on the offensive with a cocky atttitude, it just doesn't work. Read the room!

I don't know the rest, but I have NEVER said "nothing is wrong" (I'm basically the only "cule" poster here in the last pages and soon there will be 0). On the contrary. I have stated multiple times that it has to be investigated and make clear what happened with the money, then make the decisions.

I WANT TO KNOW EXACTLY WHO AND WHEN DID WHAT FOR WHAT. Period. It requires some serious investigation and analysis, no ridiculous, biased and manipulated tweets. People should me more prudent about asserting things, because they will be wrong many times.

I'm not acting as "everyone else has lost their minds", but it is "frustrating" reading the same "proofs" over and over and over again. Then you put something that demonstrates that they are false or that they are circumnstancial/irrelevant and you only receive insults. You are, by the way, of the few that had said something interesting with sense (ratio of penalties). I wonder if you would use some kind of irony if you present facts and people only cite you to insult you without any argument.

I'm ok with the exchange of information and points of view with arguments and without insults. That is why this thread is one of the worst of the forum. Extremely low quality on average, because 90% are just insults without any content.

Madrid cheating or not isn't evidence that exonerates Barcelona.

For the record, I personally think that the Spanish league is historically corrupt and constantly rigged in favor of its two biggest/richest clubs. Probably some years favoring Barcelona more, others Madrid. Main differences are A) Madrid doesn't sell an image of something they aren't (they are pretty much the football club representation of a lazy, rich, scumbag family that believe they have a divine right to everything and act accordingly), and B) they didn't get caught. So there's that.

I haven't said that. In fact, as I knew what was going to happen, I stated that clearly.
This are the exact words, even in capital letters. It seems it wasn't enough...

And before giving some details... THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NEGREIRA, AND IF IT IS PROVED THAT THE CLUB WAS CORRUPTING THE COMPETITION ITSELF SHOULD BE PUNISHED, AND SOME PEOPLE SHOULD GO TO JAIL.

Maybe you could read my text. Then you could decide if that "historically rigged" was, in fact, on par between Madrid and Barca. And I'm going to say more, until the 80s more or less, Barcelona and Atletico wasn't THAT different in terms of titles, at least in Spain.

You probably don't live in Spain but Real Madrid was always sold the "señorío". It is basically a "sir level" behavior in all the situations.

Anyway, it seems that I have a better opinion of Real Madrid than you.

No matter what you put in, it's a waste of time. When you put arguments based on information they all disappear, or they say they don't need to see those things or they change to something else. They will even tell you that you are a Barcelona PR account.

And don't tell them about José Plaza and other things. Good luck.

There is very little constructive/argumented answers. It is true that most of them are just insults.

However, my favourite kind of poster is the one that only insults and is the absolute definition of hypocrisy when trying to portray himself as an example:

Insults:

I mean, you’ve proven yourself to be an idiot time and again, so you can’t be surprised if the vast majority of people continue to mock the shitty excuses and poor attempts of your President at gaslighting for your clubs behavior.

that talk about whataboutism in posts that actually talk about CURRENT events (current and last years comite de competicion composition), defend something with poor arguments (no matter if you control the referees if you don't want a lot of titles). totally forgets arguments (provided statistical relevant data) and simply lies about the purpose of the message (i say clearly that the message had nothing to do with negreira but it is just a remainder of the situation and historical neutrality of "laliga", which is an ongoing discussion here).

They are digging up 100 year old evidence of possible conflicts of interest. Wow.

Firstly, hilarious that they had to go that far back for any dirt on other clubs.

Secondly, as you say they won 2/22 titles, while it would be difficult to prove any inconsistency with refereeing individual matches, they certainly didn’t appear to gain an advantage, unlike the overwhelming statistics in favor of Barcelona during the period they paid a VP.

Thirdly, the World is still waiting for Barcelona to show any (if any) proof of their innocence. Instead of these poor attempts at trying to incriminate others and empty ramblings of their cnut President.

However... the moment he has to defend a friend of a war criminal that has been forced to sell because.... he is a friend of a war criminal and made a fortune robbing his country...

Money has always been in the hands of the corrupt. Governments and media have also been influenced by financial backing. Let’s not pretend this is new. The sheer hypocrisy of people directing their views on Chelsea is nauseating. You could probably find dirt on every owner in the league.

"No matter if the whitewashing machine that loses 100M of euros per year in our team, no matter that is a friend of a war criminal and the money comes directly from corruption. football is dirty so every owner in all the leagues has dirt on it. so we shouldn't talk about it in the thread that is dedicated to the transaction between the war criminal friend and a random american billionaire.
You need to take into account that 7M shady payments to the VP of the referees is waaaaay more important for the society than stealing billions of dollars to whitewash a semi-dictatorship with a war criminal as a leader. So you are very bad people for waiting for Justice to act but I'm super smart not hypocritical at all!!!"

 

[SirReginald]

However... the moment he has to defend a friend of a war criminal that has been forced to sell because.... he is a friend of a war criminal and made a fortune robbing his country...

When your reply is completely off topic and used as a tool of deflection how can I take you seriously. Laporta should be banned from football like RA. Fact. Go cry about it.

 

[CampNou]

When your reply is completely off topic and used as a tool of deflection how can I take you seriously. Laporta should be banned from football like RA. Fact. Go cry about it.

Hello... deflecting who???

Repeat with me...

Money has always been in the hands of the corrupt. Governments and media have also been influenced by financial backing. Let’s not pretend this is new. The sheer hypocrisy of people directing their views on Chelsea is nauseating. You could probably find dirt on every owner in the league.

Again...

Money has always been in the hands of the corrupt. Governments and media have also been influenced by financial backing. Let’s not pretend this is new. The sheer hypocrisy of people directing their views on Chelsea is nauseating. You could probably find dirt on every owner in the league.

One last time...

Money has always been in the hands of the corrupt. Governments and media have also been influenced by financial backing. Let’s not pretend this is new. The sheer hypocrisy of people directing their views on Chelsea is nauseating. You could probably find dirt on every owner in the league.

You can stop trying to give any lesson here



And I don't give a **** about Laporta future. Probably the 1st thing I told in this very forum.

Take into account that money has always been in the hands of the corrupt. Referees and football governing bodies media have also been influenced by media and teams. Let’s not pretend this is new. The sheer hypocrisy of people directing their views on Barca is nauseating. You could probably find dirt on every owner in the league.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Do you want to say in this forum that there is something very odd in the United streak?

Refs favouring Manchester United has long been a bone of contention since the founding of the Premier League. I think there's a statistic that states they only conceded 3 penalties at Old Trafford in a decade (1994-2004).

The streak your source referenced took place a bit later between 31st December 2011 and 16th March 2014. Strangely enough it coincides with Sir Alex Ferguson's final year in charge. They last conceded a penalty on his 70th birthday and then went 85 league games without conceding one until they conceded 3 in one game at Old Trafford (see first paragraph!) against Liverpool - a game they lost 3-0.

I'd say that there is something very odd about that streak, yes. In fact if it suddenly turned out that they'd been paying the vice president of our refs millions of pounds leading up to that period it would be even more suspicious. If that paid official then retired and the streak immediately came to an end then it would become even more suspicious still. If all of this was then married to an enormous discrepancy of red cards in the favour of Manchester united over the period the VP was paid then my suspicion would turn to near certainty.

It's too many unlikely coincidences in a row.

 

[caid]

Refs favouring Manchester United has long been a bone of contention since the founding of the Premier League. I think there's a statistic that states they only conceded 3 penalties at Old Trafford in a decade (1994-2004).

The streak your source referenced took place a bit later between 31st December 2011 and 16th March 2014. Strangely enough it coincides with Sir Alex Ferguson's final year in charge. They last conceded a penalty on his 70th birthday and then went 85 league games without conceding one until they conceded 3 in one game at Old Trafford (see first paragraph!) against Liverpool - a game they lost 3-0.

I'd say that there is something very odd about that streak, yes. In fact if it suddenly turned out that they'd been paying the vice president of our refs millions of pounds leading up to that period it would be even more suspicious. If that paid official then retired and the streak immediately came to an end then it would become even more suspicious still. If all of this was then married to an enormous discrepancy of red cards in the favour of Manchester united over the period the VP was paid then my suspicion would turn to near certainty.

It's too many unlikely coincidences in a row.

Plausible deniability. Real, United, LiVARpool, Bayern have it. Barcelona dont.

 

[FreckBarca]

Plausible deniability. Real, United, LiVARpool, Bayern have it. Barcelona dont.

Exactly.

Only one team paid 7.3M€ to the ref VP for 18 years. They can try and deflect or dig up dirt from other teams (unsuccessfully so far) or other posters like SirReginald but that fact won't change.

 

[CampNou]

Refs favouring Manchester United has long been a bone of contention since the founding of the Premier League. I think there's a statistic that states they only conceded 3 penalties at Old Trafford in a decade (1994-2004).

The streak your source referenced took place a bit later between 31st December 2011 and 16th March 2014. Strangely enough it coincides with Sir Alex Ferguson's final year in charge. They last conceded a penalty on his 70th birthday and then went 85 league games without conceding one until they conceded 3 in one game at Old Trafford (see first paragraph!) against Liverpool - a game they lost 3-0.

I'd say that there is something very odd about that streak, yes. In fact if it suddenly turned out that they'd been paying the vice president of our refs millions of pounds leading up to that period it would be even more suspicious. If that paid official then retired and the streak immediately came to an end then it would become even more suspicious still. If all of this was then married to an enormous discrepancy of red cards in the favour of Manchester united over the period the VP was paid then my suspicion would turn to near certainty.

It's too many unlikely coincidences in a row.

One "problem" with statistics is that something that looks "strange" it is not actually strange, or it is not very strange, or it is not very relevant when put into perspective.

For example, assume the stat you mention (3 pens in 10 years at home) is true. What does it mean?
- 190 games
- 3 pens

I used 0.25 for that analysis because I thought that less pens are whistled in Premier. I looked for info after, and I found a sourced that told 0.24, so let's agree my numbers were "decent"

How many pens would you expect?
0.24 is a global number. However, offensive and dominant teams usually have more pens on favour than against. It depends on how dominant those teams are. For example in the history of LaLiga, Real has almost double, Barca "only" 50% more. But it is a global view, Barca and Real have been more dominant this century than in the 70 previous leagues. For a dominant side like United at that time, probably double makes sense.
So, 0.16 and 0.08 seem a decent approximation.
However... historally, home teams enjoy more pens than away teams (I don't know how VAR changed this). In Spain, I think it was 50% more.
My take is that United might have a expected value at home of 0.06. But this is not taking into account game style (you can be dominant in different ways) and pure randomness.
It would give us a rough estimate of 11 expected pens. The difference is huge (8), but again, we are not taking randomness into account and we are selecting carefully dates to get the historical value we want. It is not like in 1994 somebody told... FROM TODAY, LETS SEE HOW MANY PENS are against United in Old Trafford. In fact, I would say that that is a very expected stat for a top team thorough its history.

And, in worst case scenario, it means that 8 penalties were forgiven. It basically means that United was forgiven 1 pen every 20 games, approximately. Does it sound soooo biased? 1 pen in 20 games?

In those 78 games, Barca won very comfortably many of them. Would a penalty in the 90th with 5-0 change anyething? From a extremely basic statistical point of view yes... but from a bribing scheme? If I would do it, I would make sure to "statpad" the referee stats doing easy things like that.

I could write many pages of this kind of thing and how you can actually have a huge positive impact in classification with very bad general referees stats.

And in case I wasn't clear in ALL my previous messages. This affair NEEDS TO BE INVESTIGATED UNTIL THE FINAL CONSEQUENCIES, AND TAKE THE ACTIONS THAT NEED TO BE TAKEN.

 

[FreckBarca]

In those 78 games, Barca won very comfortably many of them. Would a penalty in the 90th with 5-0 change anyething?

This is exactly how Barca fans defended for years ref mistakes that were beneficial for them.

Many times in La Liga when Barca had have a tough time against another team (generally playing very defensively) they would get a fake pen. That pen and goal instantly changed the game. Now the other team had to play offensive and would leave spaces back and their players would get increasingly desperate/hopeless because of the obnoxious refereering.

The game would tipically end with a score of 3-0, 3-1, 4-0 or even more. At the time when we discussed with Barca fans about the fake pens or fake cards they would always say it didn't mean anything. They said only 1 fake pen in a game that ended 3-0 wouldn't change the sclre. But it's not true. The fake pen changed the whole game.




Do you want an example of such beneficial refereering and such excuses by our very own CampNou? We just have to go back some pages on this very same thread :


Beneficial refereering:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

In this video you can see:
-min. 13: Barca's first goal would normally be a foul to the keeper. 1st mistake by the ref.
-min. 45: more than possible pen by Pique that the ref didn't give. 2nd mistake by the ref?

Halftime score: 1-0.
Half time score with normal refereering 0-1?

-min 64: Barca's second goal was offside. 3rd mistake by the ref.
-min. 73: Barca gets a clear pen. Good call.
-min 76: Barca gets a fake pen in what was a
good defensive action by the defender. 4th mistake by the ref.
-min 84: Barca gets a fake and absolutely ridiculous pen and the ref sends a player off. 5th mistake by the ref.
Then they scored a goal when playing unfairly against 10 men

Final score: 6-0.
Final time score with normal refereering 1-1?


((Sidenote: Barca really needed this win. This was the 35th game of a 38 game league with a tight rice. They were behind Madrid in points before playing that game. The ended up winning La Liga that year by 1 point))



CampNou's excuses when Giorno posted about this match:

It is hilarious... indeed.

The referee was very bad, but he was far from being the reason of Barca's win.
That was a 6-0 match (that is probably why you don't see the score in the video).

- The Pique's "penalty" looks more like pectoral in better quality videos. Angle doesn't help. There is a repetition from behind but it is also not ideal. It seems like pectoral or pectoral deflection + arm later on.or the ref would send a player from the other team off, sometimes both is a joke. Nothing else to say (5-0 in the 86th minute).

So yeah, very bad referee. Very very bad. One offside goal (2-0) and a non existent penalty (5-0). Very far from being determinant but those were clear mistakes. No need to deny it. Aside from that, Barca dominated completely the match and had 5 times the chances Sporting had. +20 shots to 5.

 

[MackRobinson]

Barcelona are indeed a shameful club. Instead of defending the indefensible or engaging in explanations filled with red herrings, why not just say, "Even though this looks bad and those at the club should be held responsible and punished, it won't change my support for the club"

 

[redNATION]

So we effectively have 5 European cups, nice!

I knew there was something off about those 2009 and 2011 finals

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I don't know the rest, but I have NEVER said "nothing is wrong" (I'm basically the only "cule" poster here in the last pages and soon there will be 0). On the contrary. I have stated multiple times that it has to be investigated and make clear what happened with the money, then make the decisions.

Yes, you and other Barcelona fans here will say things like "if evidence of wrongdoing is found then we should be punished by the law."

But you all behave like it's impossible that anything bad actually happened. Your righteous indignation goes not toward the club, but toward the football fans who dare besmirch the name of Barcelona FC.

Listen... when this news first broke out, my thoughts were: looks bad, but this is fairly easy to refute. The club can just produce these videos and reports to the press and public and even if they did something wrong, it'll all remain in suspicion. That was forty five days ago. At a certain point, it's the responsibility of the club.

Imagine if your partner caught you using a second phone and you said "this isn't what it looks like" and refused to elaborate for a month. You're getting divorced!

 

[Ekkie Thump]

One "problem" with statistics is that something that looks "strange" it is not actually strange, or it is not very strange, or it is not very relevant when put into perspective.

For example, assume the stat you mention (3 pens in 10 years at home) is true. What does it mean?
- 190 games
- 3 pens

I used 0.25 for that analysis because I thought that less pens are whistled in Premier. I looked for info after, and I found a sourced that told 0.24, so let's agree my numbers were "decent"

How many pens would you expect?
0.24 is a global number. However, offensive and dominant teams usually have more pens on favour than against. It depends on how dominant those teams are. For example in the history of LaLiga, Real has almost double, Barca "only" 50% more. But it is a global view, Barca and Real have been more dominant this century than in the 70 previous leagues. For a dominant side like United at that time, probably double makes sense.
So, 0.16 and 0.08 seem a decent approximation.
However... historally, home teams enjoy more pens than away teams (I don't know how VAR changed this). In Spain, I think it was 50% more.
My take is that United might have a expected value at home of 0.06. But this is not taking into account game style (you can be dominant in different ways) and pure randomness.
It would give us a rough estimate of 11 expected pens. The difference is huge (8), but again, we are not taking randomness into account and we are selecting carefully dates to get the historical value we want. It is not like in 1994 somebody told... FROM TODAY, LETS SEE HOW MANY PENS are against United in Old Trafford. In fact, I would say that that is a very expected stat for a top team thorough its history.

Correct, it's a statistical anomaly, an extreme outlier, but one that can be explained away rationally - all else being equal. Like you say these are carefully selected dates and it is natural that there will inevitably be certain cherry picked periods where dominant teams have even more decisions go their way than usual.

For Barcelona, though, all else is not equal. We aren't cherry picking the dates so much as working backwards from the retirement of the Vice-President of referees that you paid millions of euros to. It's not just penalties either. The same 3 seasons that saw you receive a net +30 penalties also saw you receive a net -20 red cards. For comparison Real received +15 penalties and +1 red cards.

So it's not so much that all these statistical outliers wouldn't have inevitably occurred, separately, at some point, as part of a random walk; it's that they in fact occurred together and precisely preceded the retirement of the deputy head ref you were paying.

And, I'd just like to repeat, because it's the most important point in all of this. THE DEPUTY HEAD REF YOU WERE PAYING!!!!

 

[CampNou]

This is exactly how Barca fans defended for years ref mistakes that were beneficial for them.

Many times in La Liga when Barca had have a tough time against another team (generally playing very defensively) they would get a fake pen. That pen and goal instantly changed the game. Now the other team had to play offensive and would leave spaces back and their players would get increasingly desperate/hopeless because of the obnoxious refereering.

The game would tipically end with a score of 3-0, 3-1, 4-0 or even more. At the time when we discussed with Barca fans about the fake pens or fake cards they would always say it didn't mean anything. They said only 1 fake pen in a game that ended 3-0 wouldn't change the result. But it's not true. The fake pen changed everything.




Do you want an example of such beneficial refereering and such excuses by our very own CampNou? We just have to go some pages back on this very same thread :

TWID: 1637082870077349890
In this video you can see:
-min. 13: Barca's first goal would normally be a foul to the keeper. 1st mistake by the ref.
-min. 45: more than possible pen by Pique that the ref didn't give. 2nd mistake by the ref?

Halftime score: 1-0.
Half time score with normal refereering 0-1?

-min 64: Barca's second goal was offside. 3rd mistake by the ref.
-min. 73: Barca gets a clear pen. Good call.
-min 76: Barca gets a fake pen in what was a
good defensive action by the defender. 4th mistake by the ref.
-min 84: Barca gets a fake and absolutely ridiculous pen and the ref sends a player off. 5th mistake by the ref.

Final score: 6-0.
Final time score with normal refereering 1-1?

((Sidenote: Barca really needed this win. This was the 35th game of a 38 game league with a tight rice. They were behind Madrid in points before playing that game. The ended up winning La Liga that year by 1 point))



And this was CampNou's answer when Giorno posted about this match:

Your maths are not the best of the world, it has been crystal clear from the beginning, but your "match maths" are even worse...

And you don't even have the courage to cite my whole message
Because my friend, THAT WAS NOT MY RESPONSE.

- The 1st goal is legal. I guess it is too embarrasing to say that it is illegal that you have to say that... well... "normally would be a foul"... you know... "normally"... and, in case of doubt, you keep playing).
- Pique's pen is not a pen (i added more info to find better videos but you deleted it), and, in worst case, it is doubtful (again, if you have doubts you don't whistle). However, you turn both decisions around by the face and the penalty is scored 100%.
- 2nd goal is offside
- First Neymar pen is clear (i also added info to see other summary videos with more repetitions, crystal clear penalty).
- 2nd Neymar pen is a joke.

Anyway, you didn't even understand my previous message, because what you are citing is telling precisely the opposite to what you think. If you want to do this on purpose, you can just whistle a penalty against in a 5-0 game and the streak is broken. The stats "are normal" again. And that is pure BULL****.

Yes, you and other Barcelona fans here will say things like "if evidence of wrongdoing is found then we should be punished by the law."

But then you all act like it's impossible that anything bad actually happen, and all your indignation goes not toward the club or the people involved in these payments, but toward the football fans who dare besmirch the name of Barcelona FC.

When have I done that?

In fact, I HAVE STATED THE OPPOSITE ALL THE TIME, precisely to try to avoid messages like yours accusing me for telling something I haver never said. One of the 1st I said here was that I think that at least some Barca presidents (most of them in the last decades) are corrupt and some of them I think that SHOULD BE IN JAIL already.

So, telling that some people SHOULD BE IN JAIL and that this needs to be INVESTIGATED UNTIL THE END is not indignation enough.

Do you want me to say that they should be set on fire? Maybe some torturing prior to that? killing their children in front of them?

Do you want me to say that it doesn't matter if they are found guilty or not that they/the club have to be punished because some people in Twitter say that? What country are you in? what year are you in?

And well, if some people here directly insults me, can't I say anything about them?

Correct, it's a statistical anomaly, an extreme outlier, but one that can be explained away rationally - all else being equal. Like you say these are carefully selected dates and it is natural that there will inevitably be certain cherry picked periods where dominant teams have even more decisions go their way than usual.

For Barcelona, though, all else is not equal. We aren't cherry picking the dates so much as working backwards from the retirement of the Vice-President of referees that you paid millions of euros to. It's not just penalties either. The same 3 seasons that saw you receive a net +30 penalties also saw you receive a net -20 red cards. For comparison Real received +15 penalties and +1 red cards.

So it's not so much that all these statistical outliers wouldn't have inevitably occurred, separately, at some point, as part of a random walk; it's that they in fact occurred together and precisely preceded the retirement of the deputy head ref you were paying.

And, I'd just like to repeat, because it's the most important point in all of this. THE DEPUTY HEAD REF YOU WERE PAYING!!!!

The stats that are "widely distributed" doesn't match Negreira, I think they were the "Villar era". Negreira "era" is different (longer). In the "forgotten years" the stats are favourable to Real, which prolongs the study reducing differences. It might be done on purpose or not.
From the "Negreira era", there is a +50 or something like that.

Even taken the favourable of the 2, the difference in pens is minimal (120-53 vs 118-60) or something like that. However, we have our friend above, telling ALLLL the penalties Barca was awarded. The global difference is mostly based in red cards.

Half of the global difference in the ~15 years of the "study" (it is 15 and not close to 20 because they don't select Negreira's era as I explained) happens in 1 single season that stands out (2015-2016) if I recall correctly (MSN).

So basically, selecting the dates the "creators" of the study want, and discarding one year that is an extreme outlier and that has a great impact in the overall picture... The rest of years we have that the net difference of red cards + penalties is less than 2 per year.

The study basically starts with the arrival of Ronaldinho and finishes with the "debris" of MSN. Squad wise, the greatest period of Barca history.
Do you think have having less than 1.5 red cards and 0.2 penalties net difference per year is that crazy?? Do you think that Man City has, in general, more or less red cards than other big teams in England like Chelsea for example in the last decade? I know, I'm taking "the year", but consistency is important.

And it is not like "every season Barca had better numbers", they are like 10-5 or something like that. Some with very similar numbers others with higher differences (in both directions).

So, do you really think that those general stats demonstrate anything? They are complete garbage if you have a little knowledge on the matter.

And again... the disclaimer...
This affair NEEDS TO BE INVESTIGATED UNTIL THE FINAL CONSEQUENCIES, AND TAKE THE ACTIONS THAT NEED TO BE TAKEN.

 

[FreckBarca]

Here is the full highlights of the match, only 3 (hilarious) minutes long.


Here is CampNou's 2 full comments about this refereering:

It is hilarious... indeed.

The referee was very bad, but he was far from being the reason of Barca's win.
That was a 6-0 match (that is probably why you don't see the score in the video).

- The Pique's "penalty" looks more like pectoral in better quality videos. Angle doesn't help. There is a repetition from behind but it is also not ideal. It seems like pectoral or pectoral deflection + arm later on.
- There is an offside goal (Iniestas pass to Suarez). Probably around 1 meter, so it was a clear offside. Very bad decision. That was the 2-0. Important goal, but not the opening goal.
- The penalty from the handball is blatant. Period. You can see it in a proper match recap. You won't find many handballs as clear as that (3-0).
- The 1st pen to Neymar I think it is clear too when you see it from different angles. The defender does not try to play the ball or protect it, he just pushes Neymar to the ground because Neymar was getting to the ball sooner than him. (4-0)
- The 2nd pen to Neymar is a joke. Nothing else to say (5-0 in the 86th minute).

So yeah, very bad referee. Very very bad. One offside goal (2-0) and a non existent penalty (5-0). Very far from being determinant but those were clear mistakes. No need to deny it. Aside from that, Barca dominated completely the match and had 5 times the chances Sporting had. +20 shots to 5.

I would post the videos but I can't. Anyway they are easy to find in LaLiga channel.
Barcelona 6-0 Sporting. Season 2015-2016. They even have a video for Piques "pen" from different angles and even slow motion. Title is "Polémica: Doble ocasión del Sporting que saca Piqué bajopalos, reclaman mano" in case you are interested.

Your maths are not the best of the world, it has been crystal clear from the beginning, but your "match maths" are even worse...



And you don't even have the courage to cite my whole message

Because my friend, THAT WAS NOT MY RESPONSE.



- The 1st goal is legal. I guess it is too embarrasing to say that it is illegal that you have to say that... well... "normally would be a foul"... you know... "normally"... and, in case of doubt, you keep playing).
- Pique's pen is not a pen (i added more info to find better videos but you deleted it), and, in worst case, it is doubtful (again, if you have doubts you don't whistle). However, you turn both decisions around by the face and the penalty is scored 100%.
- 2nd goal is offside
- First Neymar pen is clear (i also added info to see other summary videos with more repetitions, crystal clear penalty).
- 2nd Neymar pen is a joke.
Anyway, you didn't even understand my previous message, because what you are citing is telling precisely the opposite to what you think. If you want to do this on purpose, you can just whistle a penalty against in a 5-0 game and the streak is broken. The stats "are normal" again. And that is pure BULL****.

 

[Dave Smith]

So we effectively have 5 European cups, nice!

I knew there was something off about those 2009 and 2011 finals

Not sure about 2011. But they should never have made the 2009 final

 

[Semper Fudge]

Your maths are not the best of the world, it has been crystal clear from the beginning, but your "match maths" are even worse...

And you don't even have the courage to cite my whole message
Because my friend, THAT WAS NOT MY RESPONSE.

- The 1st goal is legal. I guess it is too embarrasing to say that it is illegal that you have to say that... well... "normally would be a foul"... you know... "normally"... and, in case of doubt, you keep playing).
- Pique's pen is not a pen (i added more info to find better videos but you deleted it), and, in worst case, it is doubtful (again, if you have doubts you don't whistle). However, you turn both decisions around by the face and the penalty is scored 100%.
- 2nd goal is offside
- First Neymar pen is clear (i also added info to see other summary videos with more repetitions, crystal clear penalty).
- 2nd Neymar pen is a joke.

Anyway, you didn't even understand my previous message, because what you are citing is telling precisely the opposite to what you think. If you want to do this on purpose, you can just whistle a penalty against in a 5-0 game and the streak is broken. The stats "are normal" again. And that is pure BULL****.



When have I done that?

In fact, I HAVE STATED THE OPPOSITE ALL THE TIME, precisely to try to avoid messages like yours accusing me for telling something I haver never said. One of the 1st I said here was that I think that at least some Barca presidents (most of them in the last decades) are corrupt and some of them I think that SHOULD BE IN JAIL already.

So, telling that some people SHOULD BE IN JAIL and that this needs to be INVESTIGATED UNTIL THE END is not indignation enough.

Do you want me to say that they should be set on fire? Maybe some torturing prior to that? killing their children in front of them?

Do you want me to say that it doesn't matter if they are found guilty or not that they/the club have to be punished because some people in Twitter say that? What country are you in? what year are you in?

And well, if some people here directly insults me, can't I say anything about them?




The stats that are "widely distributed" doesn't match Negreira, I think they were the "Villar era". Negreira "era" is different (longer). In the "forgotten years" the stats are favourable to Real, which prolongs the study reducing differences. It might be done on purpose or not.
From the "Negreira era", there is a +50 or something like that.

Even taken the favourable of the 2, the difference in pens is minimal (120-53 vs 118-60) or something like that. However, we have our friend above, telling ALLLL the penalties Barca was awarded. The global difference is mostly based in red cards.

Half of the global difference in the ~15 years of the "study" (it is 15 and not close to 20 because they don't select Negreira's era as I explained) happens in 1 single season that stands out (2015-2016) if I recall correctly (MSN).

So basically, selecting the dates the "creators" of the study want, and discarding one year that is an extreme outlier and that has a great impact in the overall picture... The rest of years we have that the net difference of red cards + penalties is less than 2 per year.

The study basically starts with the arrival of Ronaldinho and finishes with the "debris" of MSN. Squad wise, the greatest period of Barca history.
Do you think have having less than 1.5 red cards and 0.2 penalties net difference per year is that crazy?? Do you think that Man City has, in general, more or less red cards than other big teams in England like Chelsea for example in the last decade? I know, I'm taking "the year", but consistency is important.

And it is not like "every season Barca had better numbers", they are like 10-5 or something like that. Some with very similar numbers others with higher differences (in both directions).

So, do you really think that those general stats demonstrate anything? They are complete garbage if you have a little knowledge on the matter.

And again... the disclaimer...
This affair NEEDS TO BE INVESTIGATED UNTIL THE FINAL CONSEQUENCIES, AND TAKE THE ACTIONS THAT NEED TO BE TAKEN.

This is just sad.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Your maths are not the best of the world, it has been crystal clear from the beginning, but your "match maths" are even worse...

And you don't even have the courage to cite my whole message
Because my friend, THAT WAS NOT MY RESPONSE.

- The 1st goal is legal. I guess it is too embarrasing to say that it is illegal that you have to say that... well... "normally would be a foul"... you know... "normally"... and, in case of doubt, you keep playing).
- Pique's pen is not a pen (i added more info to find better videos but you deleted it), and, in worst case, it is doubtful (again, if you have doubts you don't whistle). However, you turn both decisions around by the face and the penalty is scored 100%.
- 2nd goal is offside
- First Neymar pen is clear (i also added info to see other summary videos with more repetitions, crystal clear penalty).
- 2nd Neymar pen is a joke.

Anyway, you didn't even understand my previous message, because what you are citing is telling precisely the opposite to what you think. If you want to do this on purpose, you can just whistle a penalty against in a 5-0 game and the streak is broken. The stats "are normal" again. And that is pure BULL****.



When have I done that?

In fact, I HAVE STATED THE OPPOSITE ALL THE TIME, precisely to try to avoid messages like yours accusing me for telling something I haver never said. One of the 1st I said here was that I think that at least some Barca presidents (most of them in the last decades) are corrupt and some of them I think that SHOULD BE IN JAIL already.

So, telling that some people SHOULD BE IN JAIL and that this needs to be INVESTIGATED UNTIL THE END is not indignation enough.

Do you want me to say that they should be set on fire? Maybe some torturing prior to that? killing their children in front of them?

Do you want me to say that it doesn't matter if they are found guilty or not that they/the club have to be punished because some people in Twitter say that? What country are you in? what year are you in?

And well, if some people here directly insults me, can't I say anything about them?




The stats that are "widely distributed" doesn't match Negreira, I think they were the "Villar era". Negreira "era" is different (longer). In the "forgotten years" the stats are favourable to Real, which prolongs the study reducing differences. It might be done on purpose or not.
From the "Negreira era", there is a +50 or something like that.

Even taken the favourable of the 2, the difference in pens is minimal (120-53 vs 118-60) or something like that. However, we have our friend above, telling ALLLL the penalties Barca was awarded. The global difference is mostly based in red cards.

Half of the global difference in the ~15 years of the "study" (it is 15 and not close to 20 because they don't select Negreira's era as I explained) happens in 1 single season that stands out (2015-2016) if I recall correctly (MSN).

So basically, selecting the dates the "creators" of the study want, and discarding one year that is an extreme outlier and that has a great impact in the overall picture... The rest of years we have that the net difference of red cards + penalties is less than 2 per year.

The study basically starts with the arrival of Ronaldinho and finishes with the "debris" of MSN. Squad wise, the greatest period of Barca history.
Do you think have having less than 1.5 red cards and 0.2 penalties net difference per year is that crazy?? Do you think that Man City has, in general, more or less red cards than other big teams in England like Chelsea for example in the last decade? I know, I'm taking "the year", but consistency is important.

And it is not like "every season Barca had better numbers", they are like 10-5 or something like that. Some with very similar numbers others with higher differences (in both directions).

So, do you really think that those general stats demonstrate anything? They are complete garbage if you have a little knowledge on the matter.

And again... the disclaimer...
This affair NEEDS TO BE INVESTIGATED UNTIL THE FINAL CONSEQUENCIES, AND TAKE THE ACTIONS THAT NEED TO BE TAKEN.

Apropos of nothing but this is genuinely evocative of watching Evangelical Christians try to justify supporting Donald Trump

 

[mav_9me]

The Athletic at risk of getting sued. To be fair I haven't read the article completely.

https://theathletic.com/4363905/202...corruption-leaked-documents/?source=twitteruk

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Hound Dog]

So we effectively have 5 European cups, nice!

I knew there was something off about those 2009 and 2011 finals

While I know you are kidding, United really should have 4 European Cups (or Chelsea 3).

Until this stuff came to light, I thought that the refereeing performance in their semi vs Chelsea was freakish incompetence. Now, this explanation seems naive.

Oh yeah, Guardiola is a fraud.

 

[CampNou]

This is just sad.

Apropos of nothing but this is genuinely evocative of watching Evangelical Christians try to justify supporting Donald Trump

amazing comments and arguments.
thank you.

The Athletic at risk of getting sued. To be fair I haven't read the article completely.

https://theathletic.com/4363905/202...corruption-leaked-documents/?source=twitteruk

twitterid: 1641902686529282050

the article is actually soft on barca.

it only uses official documents from the prosecution and it hurts the case if you compare it to what you read in twitter (or here).

anyway, i think they could have been more harsh and plant more doubts using only the official documentation (i would if i had to write the article).

Laporta should make a press conference in about 2 weeks with the findings of the "internal investigation". you can believe those "findings" or not but it will be interesting anyway.


Will there be punishments?
It’s still too early to know. As mentioned earlier in the piece, La Liga president Tebas confirmed his body is unable to apply disciplinary sanctions against Barcelona.

“It’s not possible for there to be any sporting punishment from our side,” Tebas said when news of the scandal broke in February. “It’s been five years since those payments stopped and these kinds of breaches are time-barred in our rulebook three years after taking place.”

The legal process against the Catalan club and those other parties involved is ongoing, but in the leaked documents seen by The Athletic, the prosecution and the tax authorities have not found clear evidence of corruption. There is no record or suggestion in those papers of payments to active referees or match-fixing.

Then there is the UEFA case.

European football’s governing body opened its disciplinary investigation into Barcelona and assigned two investigators to oversee the Negreira case. From there, it will decide whether to take any further steps.

UEFA disciplinary regulations state the measures which can be imposed on clubs range from “a warning, reprimand and fine to disqualification from competitions in progress and/or exclusion from future competitions and withdrawal of a title or an award”.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Now with Barcelona angling to get Messi to return for a final farewell, this would be a wonderful confluence of events: Messi returns just in time for Barcelona to get relegated to the lowest tier of football. Imagine Messi scoring 8 or 9 goals per match against part-time farmers.

 

[horsechoker]

Now with Barcelona angling to get Messi to return for a final farewell, this would be a wonderful confluence of events: Messi returns just in time for Barcelona to get relegated to the lowest tier of football. Imagine Messi scoring 8 or 9 goals per match against part-time farmers.

Isn't he already doing that

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Isn't he already doing that

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

amazing comments and arguments.
thank you.

Who's arguing? I'm just making an observation that there are obvious parallels between the reactions of two similarly cultish fanbases who lap up bullshit in the fact of judicial authorities actually passing down indictments.

 

[NLunited]

I am not the only one who thinks that Barca‘s PR agency is paying for an account posting in this thread, or am I?

Are you talking about those walls of senseless drivel aiming to obscure and confuse?

Nope, you are not alone.