Bloody Barça fans, paying off other posters on here to ensure neutrality.
Official: FC Barcelona charged with Corruption over payments to former referees chief | UEFA open investigation
- Thread starter Kush
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Which is to keep the peace and not because someone isn't what you said they are. Surely you see the difference between that and what you suggested earlier which would be denying reality, someone that commits crimes like for example Barcelona's board, is a criminal. There is no reason to separate the act from the perpetrator, it's a senseless idea that only allows people do behave in any way possible without being held accountable.
Well the reason I don't call people idiots is not to keep peace but because I don't consider that civilized behavior. And of course they are being held accountable. For example a person who commits crimes and is convicted, goes to jail etc. That doesn't change whether I call them criminals or not. If the act is criminal of course they're being held accountable.
That's not really the point, you said that people commit criminal acts aren't criminals, which is blatantly false. It's also not an insult, it literally describes them. Now you are free to not call them criminals, you are free to have a high level of decorum but it doesn't make them not criminals, you just chose to not say it.
Of course in some contexts they would be classified as criminals, yes. But I guess this started about what to call a person if you can't call them an idiot. I said there's no need to call them anything. So no, I probably wouldn't call someone who's committed a crime, a criminal to their face. As I wouldn't call anyone an idiot either.
To get back on topic: most of the posts by most of the Barca fans in this thread are indeed idiotic.
As easy as this:
Rules to remember: no adult images or videos; mind your language; criticise the post not the poster; remain respectful to other posters.
If you are not an idiot you should understand that simple statement. If you do understand it, and you dont't respect it, you should be banned from the forum. Period. Those are the rules, and they should be enforced. It is very typical to see herd bullies on the internet, thinking that they can do whatever and they will be fine (they usually are). It is also typical that these people want respect for them and their opinions but they don't have the same courtesy with the rest.
A person can be an idiot, I don't deny it. But intelligent people do and say idiotic things, all the time. If you think you have never done/said anything idiotic... well... you are an idiot of the highest caliber and you should receive medical attention because you have some mental issues.
You can read a lot of idiotic and hypocrisy things here. For example, you get to see people defending friends of war criminals just because they bought their club. You can see how do even defend that the management was good although they were losing 100M a year for decades. You can read a lot of people who criticized Qatar or Newcastle or City or PSG, super happy with the possible opportunity to be bought by Qatar. You can see people defending the same penalty in one way of another depending on the color or the shirt. And I could go on for centuries. Things are not usually black or white.
People are biased because people are human (me, the first). The only difference is at least TRYING to read the arguments of the other and be respectful. You don't need to believe them, in some cases you don't even to respect them (the opinions), but you should have your mind minimally open. This is a FOOTBALL forum. You are not insulting a killer, you are insulting a regular person.
I don't care that a random guy on the internet insults me, I actually feel bad for him. What is going on in his life? For example, I post an official document from prosecution or official and there are just some people that cites me to insult me. I respond statistics with statistics and I only get cited to be insulted. I respond to a video with another video with higher quality and more angles and all I get are insults. Hmmm... ok??? do you have any argument to counter that or what???
Again... very easy to understand...
Rules to remember: no adult images or videos; mind your language; criticise the post not the poster; remain respectful to other posters.
You are a simple poster, you are not a judge or any kind of authority. It doesn't matter if you have written 3 messages or 30000. Respect the rules of go home.
Of course, you are free to insult me or do whatever you want as some of you have affirmed in this very forum over and over gain. Not only you don't respect them, you say that YOU DON'T HAVE TO. Who do you think you are? hahahaha.
I won't be posting in this disrespectful echo chamber for a long time. There is 0 interest from the posters to know the truth, they already have their conclusions 100% without a any kind of doubt. People only accept one sided information (no matter if it comes from a random Twitter account from fanatics and it embarrassingly false) and the only response are insults.
Good night and good luck!
Rules to remember: no adult images or videos; mind your language; criticise the post not the poster; remain respectful to other posters.
If you are not an idiot you should understand that simple statement. If you do understand it, and you dont't respect it, you should be banned from the forum. Period. Those are the rules, and they should be enforced. It is very typical to see herd bullies on the internet, thinking that they can do whatever and they will be fine (they usually are). It is also typical that these people want respect for them and their opinions but they don't have the same courtesy with the rest.
A person can be an idiot, I don't deny it. But intelligent people do and say idiotic things, all the time. If you think you have never done/said anything idiotic... well... you are an idiot of the highest caliber and you should receive medical attention because you have some mental issues.
You can read a lot of idiotic and hypocrisy things here. For example, you get to see people defending friends of war criminals just because they bought their club. You can see how do even defend that the management was good although they were losing 100M a year for decades. You can read a lot of people who criticized Qatar or Newcastle or City or PSG, super happy with the possible opportunity to be bought by Qatar. You can see people defending the same penalty in one way of another depending on the color or the shirt. And I could go on for centuries. Things are not usually black or white.
People are biased because people are human (me, the first). The only difference is at least TRYING to read the arguments of the other and be respectful. You don't need to believe them, in some cases you don't even to respect them (the opinions), but you should have your mind minimally open. This is a FOOTBALL forum. You are not insulting a killer, you are insulting a regular person.
I don't care that a random guy on the internet insults me, I actually feel bad for him. What is going on in his life? For example, I post an official document from prosecution or official and there are just some people that cites me to insult me. I respond statistics with statistics and I only get cited to be insulted. I respond to a video with another video with higher quality and more angles and all I get are insults. Hmmm... ok??? do you have any argument to counter that or what???
Again... very easy to understand...
Rules to remember: no adult images or videos; mind your language; criticise the post not the poster; remain respectful to other posters.
You are a simple poster, you are not a judge or any kind of authority. It doesn't matter if you have written 3 messages or 30000. Respect the rules of go home.
Of course, you are free to insult me or do whatever you want as some of you have affirmed in this very forum over and over gain. Not only you don't respect them, you say that YOU DON'T HAVE TO. Who do you think you are? hahahaha.
I won't be posting in this disrespectful echo chamber for a long time. There is 0 interest from the posters to know the truth, they already have their conclusions 100% without a any kind of doubt. People only accept one sided information (no matter if it comes from a random Twitter account from fanatics and it embarrassingly false) and the only response are insults.
Good night and good luck!
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Apparently Negreira's son's testimony to the tax agency was leaked. He says:
- He did refereeing reports from 2015 to 2018.
- He was hired by Josep Contreras. That the work was billed to Contreras' company Tresep, and then Tresep would bill Barcelona. That the reason this was done was to "keep appearances" and "avoid misunderstandings" that might arise due to the son of the CTA VP working for Barcelona FC.
- His intention was to work "directly" for the club, so he would meet with people there.
- He did videos on a few occasions here and there.
- The bill was around 6-7k per month. That it was really an annual fee, but Contreras split it into parts.
- His participation with 'Dasnil' (Negreira's company) was minimal, that he had an 'administrator' position for a bit but he didn't really do anything and his father ran the company, and that's why he left the post.
- After his dad lost his job at the CTA, he asked for a meeting with the club to see if they could hire him directly, as they no longer had to hide this relationship. He had a meeting with Grau and Soler who told him he would not be hired because the club was trying to save money, and that he felt the meeting was only held out of courtesy and only lasted 6 minutes or so.
This threat is one of the most idiotic on Redcafe, thank you Barça ‘fans’.
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Poor fella thought Barca valued his ref reports so much that they would love to officially hire him after his dad stopped being the ref VP.
And it was the other way around.
That must hurt.
C'mon Campnou,
we are all interested in the truth, but some do not want to know the truth because it is not what they want it to be.
This is not how it works in real life, they have been caught and now they have to live with the consequences.
Please do not deflect, it almost sounds like a Trump post.
FC Bribery don't play
I’m sorry man, they offered me a Messi jersey, and a couple nights at a air b n b on the beach!
Do I want the truth to prevail?
Do I want to laugh for a while at a club that claimed to be the icon of morality in world football, while at the same time paid the VP of referees off the books for almost two decades?
The answer to both is yes.
TBF the situation wouldn't be as hilarious if Barcelona's arguments weren't hilarious as well. From neutrality to video reports to Real Madrid's conspiracy to Villar's conspiracy to them being actually hurt by the referees decissions over time to the VP of referees somehow having no power over referees.
In any case, that's no reason to call anyone an idiot. Plus, Barcelona's defense so far "makes sense" from a legal point of view. Deny, deflect, delay. Then settle while accepting some minor charges and fines and avoid any major sport consequence. If my club had done the same and I worked there I would probably had to do more or less the same.
Do I want to laugh for a while at a club that claimed to be the icon of morality in world football, while at the same time paid the VP of referees off the books for almost two decades?
The answer to both is yes.
TBF the situation wouldn't be as hilarious if Barcelona's arguments weren't hilarious as well. From neutrality to video reports to Real Madrid's conspiracy to Villar's conspiracy to them being actually hurt by the referees decissions over time to the VP of referees somehow having no power over referees.
In any case, that's no reason to call anyone an idiot. Plus, Barcelona's defense so far "makes sense" from a legal point of view. Deny, deflect, delay. Then settle while accepting some minor charges and fines and avoid any major sport consequence. If my club had done the same and I worked there I would probably had to do more or less the same.
---A document from 1996 has been leaked showing what the refs called the "corrupting coefficient"
In this document all refs from second division are evaluated in the following way:
--Their performance from the whole season is valued from 0-10.
--The difficulty of the matches they reffed is valued from 0-2
--These 2 results are added and they get a 0-12 mark.
--Then a "correcting coefficient" is applied which changed everything. Some refs marks were multiplied by x1.60 others were multiplied by x0.50. The result is their final mark for the whole season.
This is what the refs at the time called the "corrupting coefficient". A coefficient that was never explained nor justified and had a lot of influence in which refs would get the best marks and therefore be promoted to first division or get demoted.
This coefficient was given by the ref committee in which Negreira worked as VP.
In this document all refs from second division are evaluated in the following way:
--Their performance from the whole season is valued from 0-10.
--The difficulty of the matches they reffed is valued from 0-2
--These 2 results are added and they get a 0-12 mark.
--Then a "correcting coefficient" is applied which changed everything. Some refs marks were multiplied by x1.60 others were multiplied by x0.50. The result is their final mark for the whole season.
This is what the refs at the time called the "corrupting coefficient". A coefficient that was never explained nor justified and had a lot of influence in which refs would get the best marks and therefore be promoted to first division or get demoted.
This coefficient was given by the ref committee in which Negreira worked as VP.
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that’s how uncorrupt they were. only the ones who were most uncorrupt were allowed to referee barcelona.
In Portugal a entrepeneur was accused and facing charges for paying to players of Benfica's oponents to bottle the games, but strangely Benfica isnt being acused.
--According to this article, this one and this there was a ref, Paradas Romero, who at the time said the whole ref system was corrupted to the bone.
"The promotions and relegations did not correspond to the level of the referees. Sometimes the promotions and relegations of some referees seemed incredible to us. They did not conform to the reports. Negreira communicated promotions and relegations to us. The referee reports were very opaque, everything was dark.We wondered... how is it possible that this referee has not been relegated if he has made two very clear errors in the season?"
((the corrupting coefficient at work again))
((Remember the case about Clos Gomez mistakes and how he got promoted instead of punished?))
Paradas Romero quitted his job as ref in 2013 after the pressures he received by the Ref Committee (where Negreira worked). Apparently the committee was not happy he had not sent off Mourinho on a match.
Before leaving he told Villar (president of Spanish FA) and Sanchez Armonio (Ref president, Negreira's boss):
"Sooner or later all this will be revealed and I believe this organisation (the ref committee) is corrupted and needs to be purified"
This news came out years ago but are more easily understandable now that we know more about Negreira.
"The promotions and relegations did not correspond to the level of the referees. Sometimes the promotions and relegations of some referees seemed incredible to us. They did not conform to the reports. Negreira communicated promotions and relegations to us. The referee reports were very opaque, everything was dark.We wondered... how is it possible that this referee has not been relegated if he has made two very clear errors in the season?"
((the corrupting coefficient at work again))
((Remember the case about Clos Gomez mistakes and how he got promoted instead of punished?))
Paradas Romero quitted his job as ref in 2013 after the pressures he received by the Ref Committee (where Negreira worked). Apparently the committee was not happy he had not sent off Mourinho on a match.
Before leaving he told Villar (president of Spanish FA) and Sanchez Armonio (Ref president, Negreira's boss):
"Sooner or later all this will be revealed and I believe this organisation (the ref committee) is corrupted and needs to be purified"
This news came out years ago but are more easily understandable now that we know more about Negreira.
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---According to this tweet (take it with a grain of salt although the data from this twitter user has been published even on the press):
-Barca had 78 consecutive matchdays (2 full La Ligas plus 2 extra matches) without receiving a pen against them.
-Barca had 107 consecutive matchdays (almost 3 full La Ligas) while receiving only 1 pen against them.
-Barca had 78 consecutive matchdays (2 full La Ligas plus 2 extra matches) without receiving a pen against them.
-Barca had 107 consecutive matchdays (almost 3 full La Ligas) while receiving only 1 pen against them.
The ref who gave the pen against them must have been fired mid-game surely?
Barça was winning 7-0 and he got orders to create a penalty against Barcelona out of thin air in order for future redcafe posters to say refs were biased against Barcelona.
If Benfica had been picking up the tab, I think they would.
Match rigging without involving the club isn't that unusual. Some pays a ref to ensure that team A will beat team B, that person then bets a lot of money on team A winning. Doesn't have to involve team A.
How are the powerful investors that bought a share of Barca's CL money the coming 25 years feeling right now? Without any doubt, there are many lawyers out there that are working day and night with side questions like that -- right now.
I think this must be a starting point:
1. What is the president of FC Barcelona responsible for? Rewind the tape to the time the decision to engage Negreira was made or every time the decision was renewed. We know that it was done multiple times when Laporta was in charge. Lets say Negreira has a tremendous ability to record games on VHS and provide tips on referees, and there were no intention of any funny business nor have any taken place.
What would the pros and cons be of engaging Negreira be for Barca? Do anyone think it would be far fetched for anyone in the room to raise the concern that since Negreira had an official role in the CTA and at least to some extent could impact the careers of referees -- the integrity of Negreira could be questioned if he on the side also was paid by Barca? And that these concerns of this would spill over on Barca? What I am trying to say is that anyone with half a brain would have stopped Negreira being engaged to record games -- for the risk of reputational damages alone. Like lets say Manchester City was planning to hire Howard Webb for £7,000,000 right now for the sole purpose of getting someone to advice Pep on how to shave his head -- you don't have to be related to Einstein to figure out that it would be a huge scandal if it came out that City was paying the Chief of PGMOL. It is unthinkable for anyone with any kind of insight into these things. Imagine if it broke now that
But is this not just a Madrid conspiracy? Of course not. Much is unclear in this situation -- but we know one thing for certain. It can never even remotely be proven that Barca and Negreira haven't rigged La Liga to a significant extent the last 15 years. This is not enough to send someone to jail, the prosecutor must prove a crime, the accused must not prove his/her/its innosense. But facts are that there will be a widespread suspicion of Barca rigging La Liga -- that never can be cleared.
2. So the facts are:
-Barca have been damaged tremendously.
-The damage has been caused by -- at best -- tremendously bad judgement by among others Laporta.
1+1=2. If we engage Negreira and it becomes public, it could hurt us tremendously. Things like this always risk becoming public, so it should never be done. Laporta and the other president's decision to engage Negreira is to Barca was Chernobyl was to the USSR in the mid-80s. It is to avoid damages like this, that all parties in situations like this has numerous code of conducts, yearly educations for management, special auditor functions, etc etc etc.
3. So why haven't Barca kicked out Laporta yet? Made him the scapegoat? He have -- again, at best -- run the club in an extremely incompetent manner which de facto has hurt the club tremendously and their history will -- forever -- severely be tainted by this.
I think it is as simple as this. The club's future is on the line -- unless someone can make the impossible possible. And in that environment, Laporta is perhaps not the worst bet. It is from my point of view hard to see any other explanation for it.
This. Though I’d like to add that most manipulation for sports betting is more subtle, as manipulating the outcome of a game is somewhat noticeable. It’s mostly betting on the amount of yellow cards given and stuff like that. Things that can be done without involving too many people and a wrong yellow card doesn’t create that much attention.
We agree in that some don't want to know the truth, we probably disagree if who are not interested in the truth because they already made their mind.
I'm going to give me a "last opportunity".
I will post some interesting historical data...
Not "off the books". The reason this is known is because payments are in the books and those services were taxed. The problem is the "nature" of those payments and the services, which is, at least, unclear.
I can give some interesting/funny data about the "neutrality" in the history of LaLiga so you have some extra context. By the way, "Villar's conspiracy" is a thing that comes from Real Madrid, not Barca.
If you are interested in the historical "neutrality" of the Spanish League... some facts...
And before giving some details... THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NEGREIRA, AND IF IT IS PROVED THAT THE CLUB WAS CORRUPTING THE COMPETITION ITSELF SHOULD BE PUNISHED, AND SOME PEOPLE SHOULD GO TO JAIL.
- Presidents of the Referees board
More than half of the presidents of the referees (Comite Nacional de Arbitros until 1993, then Comite Tecnico de Arbitros) were members, members of the board of ex-players or Real Madrid. I'm not saying they were "madridistas" (some weren't members but recognized they were Real Madrid fans, I'm not counting those), most of them board members/explayers, not just people who paid their seat in the stadium. I'm talking about the referees board, not another organization where it makes sense that members of the teams are involved, I'm talking about the referees. What do you think this forum would think if most of the presidents of referees of England were directly involved in Liverpool?
- Comite de Competicion (and similar bodies regarding "justice" in LaLiga)
The majority of the "Comite de Competicion" (they decide the sanctions) are/were Real Madrid members. There are currently 3 members, the "head" and 2 extra. What do you think this forum would think if most of the "Justice comitees" of the Premer League were directly involved in Liverpool?
For example, the previous president (who resigned in 2018) is a Real Madrid member. Barcelona asked him to be fired multiple times, the last one after the independence "elections". He wrote multiple insulting tweets, like a troll. While I agree in the "message", the tweets themselves were ridiculous from a grown man. Another member of the Comite de Competicion was a Real Madrid member too. One of the last decisions before he "resigned" (more or less at the same time as Negreira btw) was to sanction 4 games to Sergi Roberto for this action: youtube.com/ watch?v=IDbGnyMoR28
This has been ongoing for decades. In fact, in the prosecutor documents, they tell that one thing Barca would want from Negreira was helping to avoid that NOT ALL MEMBERS ARE FROM MADRID (they are not actually from Madrid, the city, but there is a majority of Real Madrid members deciding).
This body, this year, has taken some "surprising" decisions... for example:
- Lewandowski was given 3 games for touching his nose after a red card: youtube... IDbGnyMoR28?t=67 (i cannot post it)
- Gaya (4 games): "(...) well, in the end it's a bit like the trend (...) we've had this season, they have to warn him about the very clear penalty, as is happening to us this year, the referee has seen it and (...) he didn't want to whistle it, but we will fight against everything (...)
- Canales (4 games): "I'm the captain and I already said I wasn't going to talk to him because it's not appropriate, that expulsion was premeditated and that's not part of the game. I have tried to avoid any conversation."
- Ancelotti (nothing): "It's pretty clear. It just doesn't touch him in the hand. I've talked to Marco, it hits him in the chest. He (the referee) invented it. This situation is two points off."
- Ancelotti (nothing): "Do you think it was offside? Yes, yes... we have to accept it. But I'm left with the doubt. There is nothing for sure, but we have the right to doubt".
So you cannot touch your nose, you cannot say that the referee saw a pen but didn't whistle, but you can say that the ref invented a penalty and you can doubt about a clear offside.
More random examples about the power Real Madrid members held in deciding bodies:
https://elpais.com/diario/1992/06/07/deportes/707868008_850215.html
Real Madrid paid Sevilla for getting a good result against Real Sociedad. I'm not against paying for winning, although it is illegal. But that is not the interesting part (it explains how the payments were made, etc.).
The best part is: The Competition Committee couldn't meet Luis de Carlos, president of Real Madrid, despite several summonses. Madrid was fined 2,600,000 pesetas, which it did not pay when its appeal was successful before the Superior Disciplinary Committee, presided at the time by Francisco Martínez Fresneda, then a member of Real Madrid.
So, Real is summoned and they don't even go, they are fined, and a member of the team retires the fine. That's all folks.
https://elpais.com/diario/1982/12/08/deportes/408150007_850215.html?event_log=go
The presidents of the Sports Disciplinary and Appeals Committees are members of Real Madrid.
- Statistics
Barcelona went 78 games without a penalty. You will probably know, as some posters here remember on each post. It is actually a total surprise. And it is, because those rallies without penalties usually only happen if your shirt is white...
Real Madrid has been 3 times with at least 78 games in a row without a penalty against them. Athletic was also 80.
https://as.com/opinion/2018/03/02/portada/1519995164_727076.html
The "saldo arbitral" as you will hear these days
I'm to repeat (as I said) that that number doesn't prove a thing. It is ridiculous from a serious statistical analysis. But if you want to take it as the ground truth of everything... well... some "interesting data":
- FC Barcelona has SCORED MORE goals than Real Madrid in the history of LaLiga.
- FC Barcelona has RECEIVED LESS goals than Real Madrid in the history of LaLiga.
However, Real Madrid has enjoyed WAY MORE PENALTIES than Barca.
Real Madrid has received WAY LESS PENALTIES than Barca.
Real has +~260 (in penalties) in the history
Barca has +~160 (in penalties) in the history
Atletico has +~160 (in penalties) in the history (they have been 6-7 years in the 2nd Division)
It means that is more common for Real Madrid to score from the penalty point, even if they score less goals in total.
It means that is less common for Real Madrid to receive from the penalty point, even if they have received more goals in total.
Real Madrid has also better numbers regarding red cards (in favour, and against).
Is ok to talk about the "saldo arbitral" in the history of LaLiga knowing that the head of the referees and the justice members were controlled/had a majority of members of Real Madrid through the history?
Do you think this is "neutral"? Do you think United fans would consider this situation "neutral" if the heads of the referees/justices bodies were members of Liverpool 90% of the time?
The system itself has been madridista most of the history without any doubt. It is laughable to deny it. And I'm going to say that I don't care, as it doesn't affect my personal life, I just watch some football games.
Are these views common in Spanish football?
I think from an outsiders point of view, pointing fingers at Real Madrid is the worst possible excuse. Like — what about the 18 other teams in La Liga???
Chronological evolution of Barca fans excuses for paying Negreira:
-Nothing is gonna happen. There is no proof.
-This news are artificially created from Madrid. Nobody outside of Madrid cares about it. Nobody outside of Spain believes in it.
-They were just paying for ref reports.
-They were being blackmailed by Negreira.
-Barca is gonna demand everyone for defamation and get enough money for Mbappe and the new stadium.
-If UEFA kicks us out from European competitions we will demand them.
-Ok, there were no reports. Barca was paying for compensation against Madrid who are the true evil.
-Nothing is gonna happen. There is no proof.
-This news are artificially created from Madrid. Nobody outside of Madrid cares about it. Nobody outside of Spain believes in it.
-They were just paying for ref reports.
-They were being blackmailed by Negreira.
-Barca is gonna demand everyone for defamation and get enough money for Mbappe and the new stadium.
-If UEFA kicks us out from European competitions we will demand them.
-Ok, there were no reports. Barca was paying for compensation against Madrid who are the true evil.
Of course not. They cannot defend their innocence anymore so now they are just trying to make it look like paying the ref VP is not as serious as what other teams did and other teams are as guilty as Barca.
Today, the rage on twitter has been something similar to what CampNou said:
"From 1922 until 1953, 10 of the first 16 presidents of the ref committee were members, ex-executives or ex-players of Real Madrid"
But they do no add the fact that Real Madrid only won 2 of those 22 La Ligas...
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They are digging up 100 year old evidence of possible conflicts of interest. Wow.
Firstly, hilarious that they had to go that far back for any dirt on other clubs.
Secondly, as you say they won 2/22 titles, while it would be difficult to prove any inconsistency with refereeing individual matches, they certainly didn’t appear to gain an advantage, unlike the overwhelming statistics in favor of Barcelona during the period they paid a VP.
Thirdly, the World is still waiting for Barcelona to show any (if any) proof of their innocence. Instead of these poor attempts at trying to incriminate others and empty ramblings of their cnut President.
By "these views" you mean the part you cited or the rest?
If you mean "paying for winning" I don't know what people think. It is illegal (I guess mainly because richer get an extra "advantage") but is vox populi that it was very common in the 90s.
------
If you mean the rest. I was very clear that it has nothing to do with Negreira. And that it needs to be investigated and punished.
I just wanted to give context about the "neutrality" of LaLiga through its history. I don't care what people think. I just posted facts and statistics.
However, Real Madrid fans will deny it, the rest will say that it is true. Fans outside Madrid and Barca think that Barca and Madrid are the biggest thieves of the League (I could talk a lot about how people are biased against big teams when talking about referees but that the reality can be very different). They actually make a lot of fun when Real talks about referees (for example after the Classic, Real Madrid fans were against the VAR because of the offside goal) or when sanctions like the Canales one (today) are released and compared to what happens when Ancelotti does the same.
The referee body has been directly directed by Real Madrid members, Real Madrid board members and Real Madrid ex-players for the most time of the history. Same story for Justice Comitees (even today). Would you mind that for Liverpool? Would you ask for neutrality? Would you just trust that they are Liverpool board members but that they are super serious and professional?
As I told, prosecution mentioned that Negreira could be paid to work on some "favours". Changing the Comite de Competicion is cited among them (literally avoid that it is 100% formed by Real members). For example. lobbying to kick out the Main Judge (again, Real Madrid member and rambling like a child in Twitter against Catalonian referendum) would be an expensive (and probably illegal) job that the club would like to hide. "Jobs" like this could (and I repeat COULD) explain the payments. These "jobs" while illegal, are far from bribing referees. This would also explain the "neutrality" word, because the bodies like the Comite de Competicion are not neutral (again, majority of Real Madrid membres). Yes, they could be super professional but I would like to avoid it. I already put some examples of that Judge taking some "surprising" decisions. And this is not a referee that makes a decision in a second, it is governing body that decide sanctions with all the time of the world.
I'm going to say for the 1313465th that I do not know where the money went and for what reasons, but I would apply the prudence principle before being very expeditive towards specific charges.
This is a very poor argument.
All the rallies you mention happened from the 1930s to the early 1970s. Then there were no such rallies for almost 50 years, until Barcelona had one while also paying the ref man. So this is just more evidence of how unusual Barcelona's 'no penalty era' was, it was unprecedented in the modern era.
The strangest and funniest thing is that the author focuses a lot on the period "from 1933 to 1940." It is incredibly dishonest to try and frame some seven-year period of infamy, when Spain was in a civil war and there were three years without league competition.
The author points out that it was a guy called Mr. Chip who dug up these stats. That same guy thinks the penalty stat for Barcelona is very suspicious.
You obviously missed the bit where he bought hundreds of cheques for just below the tax reporting limit in Spain during the same period that he was going out for expensive dinners with the referees he was evaluating. I mean, there is no proof but anyone with a functioning brain can tell you whee the money went and what it bought for Barca.
That far?
The Comite de Competicion (that decides sanctions) has Real Madrid members TODAY.
The Main Judge of the Comite de Competicion (that "resigned" at the same time Negreira left) is a Real Madrid member and a Catalonia hater as he showed in Twitter.
The stastistics are overwhelming in favor or Real Madrid in the history of LaLiga. They have way more penalties in favour, way less penalties against, less red cards, more red cars in the rivals.
FC Barcelona has even a worse statistics regarding penalties than Atletico de Madrid (and they were in 2nd division por almost a decade).
However, FC Barcelona has scored more goals than Real Madrid in the history of LaLiga.
FC Barcelona has received less goals than Real Madrid in the history of LaLiga.
Real Madrid almost doubles Barcelona in terms of positive net penalties in the history of LaLiga. All to have a worse GD.
Real Madrid has multiple longer strikes of "non conceading" penalties (which is mentioned always as the biggest proof of bribes... and it is just the 5th of the history).
The data is HISTORICAL but it is BIASED towards recent times. Reason is obvious. Way more games are played now than in the past, when less teams played the League and it was cancelled for years for example to the Civil War.
It is not poor, it just means that those stats are not unseen.
I find even more "disturbing" that Valladolid went over 110 games without a single red card (and it was this century). Because of the number, and because of the team, you would expect more red cards from a low table team.
Why would it be strange, funny or dishonest? Even with a war in the middle, it is still 88 games without a single penalty. Who cares if it was in 2 years or 7?
A "not typical" number in a Poisson distribution is not proof of anything. It can be suspicious, I agree, but that's all. Barca has had recently one penalty in about 45 games and that is also a very rare case considering that it is a dominant team in LaLiga (as you would apply a different lambda in your distribution). Is this suspicious to you?
Mr. Chip does a great job but he is not a statistician. He knows basic maths but he cannot do any serious statistical analysis. So, yeah, it is "suspicious" because of the Negreira affair, and that is why it needs to be investigated (it needed to be investigated regarding any stats, because they are secondary).
Drawing conclusions from these stats is simple not serious. I just shared those because they are treated here like the "holy grail" and if you want counter examples I can give them.
You wouldn't probably have any interesting thing to say so it is a win-win for both of us.
Congratulations for not reading, I'm very proud of you.
Since I'm a pedantic asshole I'm going to go back to this.
I looked at the stats in detail and the explanation is actually quite simple. The average number of penalties per game from 1948 to 1952 is 0.332. Then it drops, to 0.193 the next four years (when Rreal Madrid has a good streak). It remains low the next 14 years, at 0.177. During this period Real Madrid and Athletic both have good streaks. Then the number starts going up again, and over the next 12 years the rate is 0.313 penalties per game.
So it's all quite simple. Penalties as a whole became less likely. This increased the odds of teams going without conceding a penalty for long streams, which then happened multiple times. Once the frequency of penalties increased, we stopped seeing this.
This is, however, not true for Barcelona's streak in the late 2010s. The average number of penalties per game from 2006 to 2022 was 0.307. The average number of penalties during the seasons in which Barcelona did not concede any, was 0.290. Basically no difference.
So this really just supports the idea that there's something very odd about Barcelona's streak!
The author clearly cares, otherwise they would have clarified it.
A lot of these insinuations assume people have no sense of history.
La Liga isn't even 100 years old, it began in 1929, with 10 clubs. Real Madrid were good pre-war, but post-war they barely won anything until the Di Stefano era in the 50s. The idea that they were puppetmastering everything for 100 years is incredibly silly.
Ok, I was actually referring to the tweet itself by Mr Chip. but I cannot insert media so I just put an article. I don't care about the article and explanations because he also says some inexactitudes.
Both streaks are very rare. Having more than one is very rare. Having those 3 is way more complicated than the Barca one.
Real Madrid almost doubles the net penalties in the history of LaLiga when compared to Barca, that has less a worse net penalties stats than than Atletico de Madrid.
Streaks are just chances, consistent data makes patterns. Patterns are usually important. I remark "USUALLY". correlation does not imply causation .
But continuing with penalty streaks...
They don't seem so strange in the international stage in this century:
https://es.besoccer.com/noticia/equipos-mas-jornadas-consecutivas-sin-penalti-contra-1110418
PSG: 121 (2000-2004).
United: 85 (at the beginning in this century too, doesn't mention exact dates).
Also United:
Tweet id by OptaJoe (100% trusted account): 416978326629007360
In 2013 they were at 76 at that moment (they might be the same streaks).
I don't think the rates in those leagues are so vastly different.
Do you think that is something very odd about PSG pre-Qatar?
Do you want to say in this forum that there is something very odd in the United streak?
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Conspiracionist looong take: almost any country hosting the Summer Olympic Games since their inception has undergone (and funded) a biiig sportwashing project to win medals and sustain a legacy after the event. Spain makes no exception, and La Liga clearly was the best league in the Ronaldo/Madrid -Messi/Barcelona era, with the national team benefitting the most. Now that it’s over, we are witnessing some of the dust under the carpet and the consequences of the SuperLeague war against UEFA, which does not necessarily means all what is being implied in this cowboys’ approach topic.