Ole and his dross signings

[Ali Dia]

Another tedious thread totally knee jerked after a defeat in a tough game.
We have some of the worst fans out there.

I agree. Ole still has much less of a net spend than any other manager post Fergie despite the fact he inherited quite a few players most fans would have shipped out as his main players. He also inherited all the same problems previous managers did and with less quality in the squad after Lukaku left. Matic one year older. Pogba half way out the door. He inherited our broken recruitment setup and our much maligned owners were also probably wary of just blindly backing any manager by the time he came along. We had the Money/fashion > football culture. An old squad and no direction. All that kind of stuff. To get us into 3rd from the position we were in was almost some kind of miracle.... Then after a summer where he wasnt really backed and we bought for the squad and for the future, he still didn’t rock the boat. now he has us in second with consecutive CL qualifications with a much happier and younger squad. Fans need to chill out and just let them work and not be out with the pitchforks after every single minor setback. If for the next year or 2 we are making top 4 and slowly building something more sustainable then it’s got to be better than desperately just firing money at the next Sanchez Di Maria lukaku or even Pogba and just looking for the short term fix.

I’m happy as long there is a genuine plan and it’s not just the owners skimping and the PR machine calling it a plan. We don’t have a divine right to win a trophy every year and the truth is City Leicester Liverpool Spurs and quite a few other European clubs were better run than us over the last few years. What’s most promising of all is how short of a time it’s actually taken us to get back amongst the top teams again and how young and open to improvement our team is looking now. It looked like we would have to totally dismantle Jose’s team after he spent a fortune and left us down the table but Ole has done really well to reshape. His signings have elevated us, especially Maguire and Bruno. AWB is still developing and could very easily do a Shaw in a season or 2 and he was brilliant last year. James has been overplayed but is good value for money. VDB could easily kick on next season and we aren’t going to lose much more than 10 million on him if we sold him tomorrow. It’s just the same heads whinging about Ole and backing each other up in every thread.... whInge about the owners if you want to whinge at anyone for us not winning anything this year because with a Sancho I reckon we could have scraped a PL and went into CL knockout rounds. We really are only 2/3 players away from having a genuine top class team again and I can’t wait to see how we get on next year if the club back the manager

 

[McTerminator]

Telles has not been a good signing.

At the start of this season most people would have agreed that Shaw needed competition.

It is possible that signing Telles has helped to spur Shaw on. In which case you can hardly call it a bad signing.

 

[Amir]

Don't think this is an area you can criticise for him at all really. In 2 full seasons our squad is clearly stronger and has a net spend averaging 90m a season. Overall the balance of squad is far better but underperforming

The squad is stronger, but you have to look at the broader picture. When you spend the sort of money we did on AWB or Maguire, you need those players to be good enough to take you all the way. Can we win titles with those players, or could we end up saying we can't do that because of Maguire's lack of pace or AWB's offensive struggles?

Better, yes. Good enough, doubtful.

 

[SAFMUTD]

I just don’t see it as black and white
There are a lot of other factors that go into signing a home based proven player in his peak years from a rival team, and one of their best as well.

he’s been a great addition to the squad, our board are shit at handling transfers and everyone knows it, if we only bought players for their face value worth we’d be starting the season with Jones bailly and lindloff.
I put little blame at Oles door for the prices being paid

I agree its not only Ole's fault, its the board as well. But like I said in my initial post a good way to grade if a signing is succesfull or not is to ask yourself if given the opportunity not to would you do it?

So I ask you if we didnt have Maguire and had the chance to sign him for 80M would you do it?

 

[SER19]

The squad is stronger, but you have to look at the broader picture. When you spend the sort of money we did on AWB or Maguire, you need those players to be good enough to take you all the way. Can we win titles with those players, or could we end up saying we can't do that because of Maguire's lack of pace or AWB's offensive struggles?

Better, yes. Good enough, doubtful.

I think we can with a couple more additions. Whether or not thats under ole remains to be seen

 

[Tom Cato]

Should he be accountable for wasting an absolute fortune on a total dross?

Maguire - £ 80M
AWB - £ 50M
James - £ 15M
VDB - £ 45M

That’s around £ 200M on players that have either barely improved us or have done nothing at all, yet people are comfortable with giving him another summer of spending to mask his coaching inability?

Alex Ferguson signed Bebé. Alan Smith, Kleberson, Veron, Forlan, Taibi and more who were just awful in a United shirt. And he signed Christiano Ronaldo and Wayne Rooney. If you tell me that they cost less money I'll sign you up for a market economy 101 course

I don't have time to get into this debate but I'd just like to point out that you don't have an argument if you don't point out both spectrums when you make a point.

You deliberately chose to only complain so I'll just point that out to you.

 

[Greck]

Our managers always kneecap themselves by misusing their first summer warchest. Maguire, AWB and James aren't bad but not for the overpay of 150m. Still remember people suggesting it was worth it because just like VVD he would be a final piece worthy of an overpay. 2 years later we're looking for another final piece defender to complement his flaws

 

[Random Task]

How can one loss in a largely irrelevant cup game result in so many useless knee-jerk threads?

You would be excused for believing some have an agenda and a losing game is just the ammunition needed to spread that agenda.

 

[Harold_Giles]

Still Ole in.

If we don't strengthen crucial positions (RW and DM most necessary) this summer and mount a serious title challenge next season, then we should consider moving on.

Whatever happens I believe our next manager will be in much better position, in regards to our squad, than Ole, Mourinho and LVG before.

 

[Greck]

How can one loss in a largely irrelevant cup game result in so many useless knee-jerk threads?

You would be excused for believing some have an agenda and a losing game is just the ammunition needed to spread that agenda.

Is it one cup or an accumulation of losses in every cup we participate over a three year span? You know were on a trophyless run. Every one we lose from here on is going to breed more and more negativity. The only solution is winning

 

[red4ever 79]

Still Ole in.

If we don't strengthen crucial positions (RW and DM most necessary) this summer and mount a serious title challenge next season, then we should consider moving on.

Whatever happens I believe our next manager will be in much better position, in regards to our squad, than Ole, Mourinho and LVG before.

Like a groundhog quote anyone could have come up with at the back end of last season

 

[red4ever 79]

How can one loss in a largely irrelevant cup game result in so many useless knee-jerk threads?

You would be excused for believing some have an agenda and a losing game is just the ammunition needed to spread that agenda.

Sad times

 

[mu4c_20le]

Is it one cup or an accumulation of losses in every cup we participate over a three year span? You know were on a trophyless run. Every one we lose from here on is going to breed more and more negativity. The only solution is winning

Don't tell me you are counting the (half) year when he took over a demoralized squad in freefall left by the toxic one?

 

[The Urban Goose]

How can one loss in a largely irrelevant cup game result in so many useless knee-jerk threads?

You would be excused for believing some have an agenda and a losing game is just the ammunition needed to spread that agenda.

It's the black and white "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality of today's youth. All they care about is being proven right. There's no nuance, no debate, no critical analysis now that their mind has been set - just "waa waa waa why can't you see that I'm right and nothing will change my mind". It's tedious.

These people deserve for Ole to leave and for us to be plunged back into the Moyes/LVG/Jose anti-united doldrums.

 

[Harold_Giles]

Like a groundhog quote anyone could have come up with at the back end of last season

Well sure, anyone with unreasonable expectations and no patience whatsoever.

Which sadly, from my experience on this forum, is about 90% of our fanbase.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Like a groundhog quote anyone could have come up with at the back end of last season

Thats the philosophy of the "rebuild" first it was time needed to get results, now after time has passed its "even if the results dont come the path has been made for a future manager". Theres no way that people will be convinced that Ole is not good enough, whenever the ground is broken they set a lower one for Ole to fit in.

 

[SAFMUTD]

It's the black and white "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality of today's youth. All they care about is being proven right. There's no nuance, no debate, no critical analysis now that their mind has been set - just "waa waa waa why can't you see that I'm right and nothing will change my mind". It's tedious.

These people deserve for Ole to leave and for us to be plunged back into the Moyes/LVG/Jose anti-united doldrums.

You do know there are more options than those right? Its not Ole or "anti-united". I wonder if those same arguments were made for players how would they be seen here. "these people deserve Daniel James to leave and go back into the playing Lingard/Mata on the right times".

 

[SAFMUTD]

Well sure, anyone with unreasonable expectations and no patience whatsoever.

Which sadly, from my experience on this forum, is about 90% of our fanbase.

What are those unreasonable expectations you mention? I dont think anyone here is demanding winning the league or Champions league. We ask for a cup and an attractive football system, is that unrealistic to ask after 2 and a half years?

 

[UnofficialDevil]

How can one loss in a largely irrelevant cup game result in so many useless knee-jerk threads?

You would be excused for believing some have an agenda and a losing game is just the ammunition needed to spread that agenda.

Is doing our best to try and stop City from winning the Treble irrelevant? And even if that wasn't so important which it certainly is, the FA cup isn't irrelevant. Unless you think our Museum is full of irrelevant trophies.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I very much dislike these threads that tie a manager to the price of players. I didn't like it when people pulled the price of the player card to moan about Jose and I feel the same about the moaning against Ole.
We buy players for over the top prices. It is a mix of clubs fleecing us because we have lot of money, players/agents hardly putting any pressure on the selling clubs, and most importantly pure incompetence by Woodward's negotiation and scouting team over the past many years. The only negotiation tactics we use is throw a wad of money. So we quickly get overpriced for signings and then sign up second/third choice players for first choice money. And then we fans quickly realize that these players are average quality ones.

 

[Harold_Giles]

What are those unreasonable expectations you mention? I dont think anyone here is demanding winning the league or Champions league. We ask for a cup and an attractive football system, is that unrealistic to ask after 2 and a half years?

That we should have mounted a serious title challenge this season.

 

[always_hoping]

Why ignore Bruno, Telles and Cavani? He signed them as well

Doesn't suit his agenda and AWB has been far from a dross signing.

The fee paid for players is down to Woodward and his chief negotiator Matt Judge not the manager.

 

[SAFMUTD]

That we should have mounted a serious title challenge this season.

Agree that one is not really realistic, meaning "serious" as if we are capable of actually winning it. But again I don't think the majority of Ole out posters is asking for that, many of us ask for a cohesive progressive style, somethink that makes us hope that with more time or 1-2 players will actually click.

 

[Greck]

Don't tell me you are counting the (half) year when he took over a demoralized squad in freefall left by the toxic one?

so if he won the FA cup in that half season, would you have said it didn't count? Actual honest question

 

[Will Singh]

If our forwards performed like they did last season we'd be top of the league! I keep thinking that loss to spurs has had a massive effect on Ole and since then and he has mentioned it is that a clean sheet is important more than scoring?

 

[mu4c_20le]

so if he won the FA cup in that half season, would you have said it didn't count? Actual honest question

I'm not saying it wouldn't count, I'm asking if you are counting that period including the free run we had at the CL. We had no business being there, but he actually produced a miracle in Paris, before drawing Barca after. Are we holding that half season against him when counting this 'trophyless' run ?

 

[tomaldinho1]

AWB improved us.
Maguire improved us.
Bruno improved us.
James is probably net neutral but good squad player.
Telles good backup.
Cavani good option.
Amad apparently high potential.

Squad strength is improved and first XI is improved. Ole also isn't picking and choosing our players on his own or deciding their prices. This thread has no legs.

 

[Greck]

I'm not saying it wouldn't count, I'm asking if you are counting that period including the free run we had at the CL. We had no business being there, but he actually produced a miracle in Paris, before drawing Barca after. Are we holding that half season against him when counting this 'trophyless' run ?

I'm thinking more along the lines of crashing out of the FA cup quarterfinals to Wolves. We would have met Watford in the semis for an easy draw

 

[mu4c_20le]

I'm thinking more along the lines of crashing out of the FA cup quarterfinals to Wolves. We would have met Watford in the semis for an easy draw

Fair enough. I remember the general attitude at the time was that any cup would be a nice bonus. Not going to argue the manner of the exit though.

 

[Adnan]

If our forwards performed like they did last season we'd be top of the league! I keep thinking that loss to spurs has had a massive effect on Ole and since then and he has mentioned it is that a clean sheet is important more than scoring?

I do believe the loss to Spurs has had a effect on Solskjaer and I have mentioned that several months back. It seems he's lost faith in the collective to play a more expansive game and hence we resort to playing a style which maintains defensive structure and relies on the individuals in forward positions to win us games.

At Molde he was very attack minded and played high tempo, fast transition football with his back-line maintaining a high-line with and without the ball. At United he's made two errors when signing players due to both Maguire and AWB not being a fit for the play style he prefers. And I've been saying that for 2 years now.

But having said that, he's still in a good position to recover the situation as far as his preferred play-style goes. But he'll have to sign players that fit into a high press/high risk set up, starting with a CB who can help him maintain a high-line and defend his zone solo, against counter attacks. That will then enable the midfielders/fullbacks to stay further up the pitch, which will help our attack due to the extra passing options and overload capabilities.

 

[Drainy]

Every united manager since SAF has said we've failed to secure their top few choices.. why do people doubt its the same with Ole? Its pretty obviously the case that we buy down the list because our first few choices would have cost even more, or weren't interested in joining.

 

[SirScholes]

I agree its not only Ole's fault, its the board as well. But like I said in my initial post a good way to grade if a signing is succesfull or not is to ask yourself if given the opportunity not to would you do it?

So I ask you if we didnt have Maguire and had the chance to sign him for 80M would you do it?

If he’s on my short list and I NEED a defender I don’t see what alternative there was
he’s been a great addition to the team
I’d be pushed to say no for awb, although he is a great defender he doesn’t have the complete profile we need for a full back or what Ole needs for his plan to work.

I’m assuming with inside forwards playing wide he wants fullbacks to overlap
And our right wing is a utter shambles, everyone knows we won’t use it so they overload the left.
I like awb for being a great defender but I don’t understand why we pushed so hard for a player that doesn’t suit the style of play we’re looking for.

 

[SAFMUTD]

If he’s on my short list and I NEED a defender I don’t see what alternative there was
he’s been a great addition to the team
I’d be pushed to say no for awb, although he is a great defender he doesn’t have the complete profile we need for a full back or what Ole needs for his plan to work.

I’m assuming with inside forwards playing wide he wants fullbacks to overlap
And our right wing is a utter shambles, everyone knows we won’t use it so they overload the left.
I like awb for being a great defender but I don’t understand why we pushed so hard for a player that doesn’t suit the style of play we’re looking for.

Fair enough

 

[Pickle85]

Really wish people wouldn't massively exaggerate to make a point. Neither Maguire not AWB in particular is dross. Yes, we arguably overpaid but that doesn't change their intrinsic abilities. AWB is a very solid defensive fullback with time on his side and the potential to go up another couple of levels. Some aspects of his game are limited but on the whole he's had a decent season. Maguire is a decent CB...not eighty million pounds good, but nonetheless he's decent. Lacks pace but is far from dross. Everything being either dross or brilliant gets in the way of productive (and reasonable) discussions around the real problems in the squad and it's frustrating to see this kind of polarising, melodramatic rhetoric constantly kicked around.

 

[MrBest]

Im just calling as it is.

Your biased dislike for Maguire clouds your judgment on him. He's been a good solid signing and the majority of performances reflects this...He's by far our best centre-back at the club.

He like Bruno and Wan Bissaka have come into the first team and improved us immediately. It's so obvious.

The other signings? not so much as of yet...

Biased dislike? May I ask, how on earth did you come to the assumption that I am bias? If you think the majority of performances he has had is that good, then I don't share your opinion for the reasons I gave you. Unless you clarify what specifically you think makes him this good, unfortunately I cannot begin to relate. I actually think Bailey is our best CB at the club but unfortunately he is never fit. Maguire comes second but that is because Lindeloff just does not cut it for me, Tuanzabe is too inexperienced and has not been given a fair opportunity and Jones, well, i forgot he was even at the club before I wrote this. I am really excited to see how Mengi develops, but it is unfair to put him in the picture to compare with just a couple of handful of games under his name.

I dont disagree that Bruno set the league alight in his first year and as I stated, AWB had a great first season but his biggest development area is pushing forward. This season he has not been at that level, but you cannot really blame him when he is our undisputed right back and next in line is Williams who is still raw, Dalot who had to be loaned out and still 21 and Laird who only has 5 or 6 professional games under his belt. Obviously he is going to improve us, especially when our base is nothing (Young was at left back when AWB first arrived). That said, there are right backs out there who I personally would take over him such as Justin at Leicester, Cancelo at City and James at Chelsea, just to name a few. Again, just my opinion.

 

[MrBest]

Really wish people wouldn't massively exaggerate to make a point. Neither Maguire not AWB in particular is dross. Yes, we arguably overpaid but that doesn't change their intrinsic abilities. AWB is a very solid defensive fullback with time on his side and the potential to go up another couple of levels. Some aspects of his game are limited but on the whole he's had a decent season. Maguire is a decent CB...not eighty million pounds good, but nonetheless he's decent. Lacks pace but is far from dross. Everything being either dross or brilliant gets in the way of productive (and reasonable) discussions around the real problems in the squad and it's frustrating to see this kind of polarising, melodramatic rhetoric constantly kicked around.

I guess it's less about the money we paid for Harry and more about whether having a decent centre back is good enough for this club. I too think Harry is a decent defender, but I expect so much more for this club, but we have been spoilt over the years with Rio, Vidic, Bruce, Stam etc.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

Not only dross signings, but also covid with the empty stands and the lack of funds are down to him.

Some may try to argue that the pandemic isn't down to him, but there was no covid before he took over, and as the manager the buck stops with him.

 

[pocco]

I'm not saying it wouldn't count, I'm asking if you are counting that period including the free run we had at the CL. We had no business being there, but he actually produced a miracle in Paris, before drawing Barca after. Are we holding that half season against him when counting this 'trophyless' run ?

Di Matteo won Chelsea an FA Cup and CL in his first season as a caretaker manager. He had to overturn a 3-1 loss in his first CL game to keep them in it, which he did, before going on to win the whole thing. He also spanked Spurs 5-1 in the FA Cup on the way to winning. I know you want zero expectations for Ole, but there are examples of managers taking over failing teams and making them into good teams, winning trophies along the way.

Not to mention that the apparent dissaray and issues at the club seemed to dissappear with Jose. We played our best football under Ole in the immediate aftermath of his takeover, in my opinion.

 

[Jericholyte2]

I had a debate about this a few days ago. Whilst I wouldn’t necessarily call he signings dross (apart from maybe James, I just don’t see the point in him) for me they appear to be less overtly short-term solutions to long term issues:

Maguire - clearly a very good CB but with the obvious lack of pace to handle 1v1s. At the time we signed him our strongest CB was Lindelof, and so the natural partner for him would have been a more athletic CB who could cover and recover position quickly to allow the back line to push up and be more pro-active. Instead we went with a player who needed little research and effort (in terms of knowing what qualities he had) but still left us with the same issue we previously had with our CBs. We spent £80m, but we didn’t fill the partnership with Lindelof properly. If we were (and we should) be looking at replacing Lindelof then that’s fine, but whilst he’s there we should have signed the fast counter-part first and then looked to replace him with an upgrade who didn’t necessarily need as much pace.

AWB - similarly I don’t think anyone can deny the defensive quality AWB has in a 1v1 situation, and is young enough to develop other defensive abilities that come with experience (positioning, stopping coming in too narrow etc) but he is instinctively a defensive FB which doesn’t push the team on as much, or give the team as much of a pro-active position. Already within 2yrs we’re seeing stories about Ole wanting an attacking alternative to push him for a 1st team spot. The question then has to be what happens to our near £50m investment? Is he our long-term solution and how much would an attacking option who could be 1st team ready then cost us?

Whilst we will never deny Bruno was a great signing & Telles has given Shaw a shot in the arm (not going in to Cavani or VDB) this is where the biggest investment has been made, nearly £130m and we’d argue that the issue we had with the defence - lack of pace and non-creative FBs in the case of AWB - are still present and sill need addressing.

 

[wolvored]

We’ve made about 3 good signings since 2013. There’s a massive problem with our scouting & recruitment team. As much as I think Ole’s out of his depth, the problem goes beyond him.

Yes best post. This is a never ending problem that never seems to improve. It's a scattergun approach and occasionally you bag a good un. For a club this size it's disgraceful. Let's hope this new DOF and tech will be able to make it much better