Only question is, did his inclusion lead to our high back line? Perhaps he was hoping Ziyech and Mount would capitalise. Had he started Werner then we may not have seen the high line and we'd be saying they should have started Giroud.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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One has had 3 years. The other a few weeks. Get a grip.
So Ole used some tactics or coaching by playing the high back line when he seen giroud starting. Makes sense.
Math doesn’t seem to be your strong point and didn’t know Tuchel never managed before. He better hurry up as he is not going to get 3 years at Chelsea.
But it's just crazy, I mean what you're saying. Like you're talking about two highly successful managers getting some nil alls against us while hammering teams most weeks and picking up silverware along the way. Of course they bloody well get more leeway. Also, these performances and results have become the norm for us this season against the top 6. You're taking Liverpool or City in a singular setting against us only. I mean what are their results like against the top 6 this season? Is it a regular occurrence for them to play out drab nil all draws? I can't be arsed checking but for us it's been a common theme this season.
And just in general, no a nil all doesn't mean both managers deserve the same scrutiny, if any. If a team comes up against a Jose shit-house type team and draw nil all, then yeah it's the shit-house teams manager that deserves criticism. It can be hard to score against that set up as we as United fans have seen numerous times over the years. Fulham went to Palace yesterday, the game ended 0-0 but yet Fulham had 20 shots and 60% possession vs 3 shots and 40% possession. Guess which manager is receiving stick? Obviously every nil all can be contextualised but it's far too simplistic to say 'both managers' can be critiqued.
If it's a running theme for us to get these nil alls against bigger teams but not a theme for those other sides, then the issue may be that Ole sets up top defensive in these games. I'm not saying it is and I haven't seen analysis on it but we have been poor this season against the 'traditional top six' which is a worry considering that was a strong point of ours.
I think people need to understand where we truly are as a team and as a squad at the moment. There are so many discrepancies amongst the cafe consensus that it doesn't take a lot to just step back and look at the wider picture. On the one hand, post a thread asking what we need to improve on this summer and you'll get a number of different responses. Badly in need of a centre forward, a right sided attacker, a dominant ball playing DM, a quick centre back to partner Harry, a RB alternative to push AWB. All of these are, to various extents, valid points.
However, we have a collective fanbase that make all of these points and then in the next breath have expectations of the team, and of the manager, that don't take any of that into account. We are expected to win and win well - all the time. We are expected to go up against our rivals and dominate games and win. We are expected to have solutions to solve all kinds of different problems when, as highlighted, most of us are actually in agreement that we don't have those solutions yet.
I'm not really that concerned about our top-6 results this season and I'll wager that the club aren't either. The nature of these games is that they are decided by small margins, and while we are not winning these games we also aren't losing them, and we have been arguably the better team and more likely to win in most of them. The foundations of the team look stronger than they were last season.
However, we have a collective fanbase that make all of these points and then in the next breath have expectations of the team, and of the manager, that don't take any of that into account. We are expected to win and win well - all the time. We are expected to go up against our rivals and dominate games and win. We are expected to have solutions to solve all kinds of different problems when, as highlighted, most of us are actually in agreement that we don't have those solutions yet.
I'm not really that concerned about our top-6 results this season and I'll wager that the club aren't either. The nature of these games is that they are decided by small margins, and while we are not winning these games we also aren't losing them, and we have been arguably the better team and more likely to win in most of them. The foundations of the team look stronger than they were last season.
-"Ole is not managing us well"
-"B-but what about Tuchel!!"
Some of you need to join the rest of us in reality.
-"B-but what about Tuchel!!"
Some of you need to join the rest of us in reality.
I was just answering a point. I’m sure if Pogba and Cavani played It would have been 0-0 like the other results. It’s not like the tactics would have changed. If anything. Pogba would have been asked to do James’s fitness test performance.
Ok bud, I get that nil nil in a few games against equal or better opposition isn’t great for us. I get that those managers have won things and shockingly I get that different teams setup differently for a result.
Guess I just can’t stick the constant non coaching, useless coach jibes directed at Ole when they’re mostly unfounded and aimed it at my original post of only our manger ever gets criticised for these results. then got sucked into this stupid debate with you about it.
But the thing is it is just a lazy and wrong conclusion to come and say Ole sets his side defensive against these top teams when we hardly were defensive yesterday. Our fb's were expansive and were pressing far high. How can we be defensive when our fbs are that high up the pitch. Both the managers were not defensive, in fact for many football purist it was a good game which lacked final quality from both sides. Against Liverpool we had the best chance and Pogba should have scored, same against Arsenal when Cavani missed two great chances. You don't get chance after chance against top sides, only city manage to do that. Look at Spurs/Chelsea game recently, the game was a bore fest but chelsea won thanks to a penalty. Technically even we should have been awarded a penalty yesterday and the game could have ended 1-0. Even city/Arsenal recently was a borefest. Big games mostly are decided by margins and to say or pretend we just sat back like Athletico Madrid or a Jose side is just a poor take.
You're tying yourself in knots. What influence has Tuchel coaching at PSG and Dortmund had on these Chelsea players? Explain that to me convincingly and you might have half an argument worth discussing.
His influence in those weeks is there to see.
Pretty basic, but yes. Had he got on the end of the header from the cross in behind our retreating back line, then it might not have looked so clever though.
Having to exaggerate and say 3 years when in reality it's been just over 2 does nothing but hurt your point as you appear biased to a fault.
Should have just balanced that saying Ole had 3 years and Tuchel had 1 year.
I'd argue that the high press didn't last even a full half. In the second half the forwards were jogging (bar James) and retreating deeper and deeper off the ball. Something of a normality for us these days.
I apologise - 2 years. Point still stands and is still valid. The same argument was made for Ole when we were having a bad run when he was officially appointed. The fact that you are getting hung up on this and not acknowledging the obvious point here, speaks volumes.
Fair enough pal.
Well, that's a load of bollocks isn't it? Of Jose's squad who are still here, how many played key roles? DDG, Pogba and Matic? Maybe Lindelof and Rashford? Pogba and Martial were obviously on the scrapheap by the time Jose got the sack. Of those you mentioned, Matic barely plays. Bailly is in and out and rightly so cos he's unreliable, and Lindelof is this generation's Silvestre and only plays because he's the only partner of Maguire who you can rely on to stay fit. Fred was seen as a joke on this forum and elsewhere when he first arrived and it was so bad that Jose let it be known to his mates in the press that he didn't even want him in the first place. Fred coming good is a testament to Fred first and foremost, but also Ole.
That squad ultimately finished 6th in the 3rd and last of his seasons here. We then took a sledgehammer to that squad and turfed out many of the key players within it. Herrera, Smalling, Sanchez, Lukaku, Fellaini, Young, Valencia, all gone within 12 months and I'm sure there were more. What was left over, were players who Jose either didn't rate or thought were squad players like Scott, Fred, Rashford, Martial, Pogba, etc. We let our £72m striker go without replacing him. We also let our best midfielder go without replacing him for 6 months. We DID buy a CB and RB who did improve our defence from where it was the season before. It's dipped slightly this year, but nothing major when we consider 11 of our goals conceded this season came in our first 3 games. We eventually did buy Bruno, and lo and behold, we turned it around. We didn't buy a replacement for Lukaku and instead banked on Rashford and Martial coming good along with Mason. That's on Ole. In fact, to get us to become top scorers this season so far when our attackers haven't turned up, is fantastic and really points to how this team is really improving in its attacking play.
Ole had a similar transfer window to what Jose did in 2018/19. The only difference is rather than wallow in self pity and burn the club to the ground like Jose, he got on with the job and actually set out to improve us on that low base. He deserves credit for that, not this revisionist BS take.
We hardly sat back and stop playong football in the second half, did we? We had some really good moments ourselves and with better quality we could have won the game. It was not like Chelsea were creating chance after chance. Yes they had more possession in the second half but that doesn't reflect that we gave up playing football. The huge talking point of the game was the penalty that was denied and had that been given we could have won the game. Just because the scoreline was 0-0 doesn't mean we were defensive or gave up playing football.
We didn't drop deeper. Majority of the game was played in Chelsea third. It was even game with both teams having their moments in dominating the game.
Ole played for the draw, Tuchel tried to win, he made tactical subs at half time to try and win the game, something Ole never does, Ole played the same tactics for 90 minutes like he always does, even when he makes a sub its not tactical, he just swaps players in the same position.
His approach was cautious (and btw he is in general rather a possession based defensive minded coach). He had different (attacking) options available to him. He chose a cautious approach against us even though we have been conceding goals for fun. Chelsea were set up not to lose even though they could have closed the gap to us with 3 points. All the above has nothing to do with how long Tuchel has been managing Chelsea. He is experienced enough to know what he is doing by choosing a certain approach to a game.
We didn't stop playing football or at least trying, it wasn't completely negative. But because we pressed for 30 minutes (the drop off was noticeable even before half time), you can't say we pressed the whole game like some are making out.
We were defensive and played for the draw. Which is why AWB Luke Shaw Mc and Fred were not going forward they were clearly sitting back to protect Lindelof and Maguire. If we were going for a win we wouldn’t be playing like that.
Hmmmm, this could be construed as goalpost shifting kind of stuff. Our results against the bigger clubs was used as evidence of progress in the past and was key to Ole being praised. Now, because results have been poor against the 'traditional top six' you are downplaying the importance of these fixtures. People are constantly shifting goalposts in here for what's acceptable/not acceptable.
It's a rollercoaster, just go with it.
Last season Ole in guys - Results against top teams show how good he is.
Ole out guys - he is tactically poor, that's why we can't win against low block teams.
This season Ole out guys - results against top teams show how clueless he is.
Ole in guys - but we are winning against rest and in 2nd position.
It's fecking madness, yet both sides act like they don't do what the other does
Ah, yes. Of course Ole would make Pogba play as a high intensity wing/ wing back on the right side. Typical Ole.
Shaw created our biggest chance and was relatively often available on the overlap on the left. AWB was quite often inside or at least close to their box on the right. They may have played deeper than they've done lately, but it's not like they didn't go forward.
Spot on.
Before the season started (and after our dissapointing summer window) most people on here seemed to think we would end up in another top 4 scrap or worse. We still are of sorts, but being second in the table after having played 2/3 of the season is a lot better than a lot of people predicted
Martial who i'd argue was our most important player last season before Bruno arrived has been utterly shit the whole season. Greenwood who is still just a kid was scoring for fun last year and now has 1 goal in 20. Rashford and Bruno are blowing hot and cold and are badly in need of a rest. Then we have Pogba who had Covid, was injured, then shite, then good and is now injured again. Then you have DDG who now keeps on with his steady decline and is now not even a midtable GK by any metric besides wages
People who keep banging on about "lowering expectations" need a reality check. I really want a Ferrari, i could ask my wife to buy me one for my next birthday. Of course i could ask it, but is it realistic? No.
And if i then told her she "should stop lowering expectations", how would she respond?
So we 'smashed' PSG away and were 'unlucky' at home? Very hyperbolic.
Now that Ole's had 4 years to build a team, I think it's only fair to expect a result. I mean, we sacked José after 2 and a half years, and Ole's now got 5 years under his belt. If we give him next year as well, 7 years should definitely be enough for him to win something! No excuses after 8 years!
Not a great post at all. You're much better than that.
I'm not downplaying the importance of these fixtures. Not intentionally anyway, if it reads that way. I guess my point was the balance between people discussing the various positions they feel must be improved upon within the squad whilst also expecting us to play like the finished article.
There are other avenues to go down if we are trying to search for evidence of progress. Being 2nd in the league is obviously one of them. I think in terms of big matches it is clear that we are trying to be more proactive and that the team have improved to a level where we are not simply going into these with a backs to the wall mentality and trying to catch teams on the break. From my (possibly red-tinted) perspective we are more progressive in these games this season
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This year we’re taken more seriously and set up against more cautiously so as long as we keep up the smaller wins (we havn’t lately) then draws against the top sides isn’t all that bad.
so both still being true?
it doesn’t always have to be Ole in or out, sometimes I’d just like to be a fan enjoying where we are and going for a change. I honestly can’t stand this in out nonsense, I’ve never seen it so bad before, here or at any other club
cant the results against the top teams last year show how well Ole started and was undersestimated.
This year we’re taken more seriously and set up against more cautiously so as long as we keep up the smaller wins (we havn’t lately) then draws against the top sides isn’t all that bad.
so both still being true?
it doesn’t always have to be Ole in or out, sometimes I’d just like to be a fan enjoying where we are and going for a change. I honestly can’t stand this in out nonsense, I’ve never seen it so bad before, here or at any other club
How was it cautious? He played the same sort of way he does every game. They pressed us back, their wing backs tried to get forward, the likes of Kante and Kovacic got forward. I don't feel like it was particularly cautious. The obvious problem for Chelsea, from the outside looking in, is that they aren't on the same wavelength in attack. I've watched a good few of their games under Tuchel and you can see it's a work in progress, but the foundations are there already.
Already corrected, but well done in not responding to the point.
You’re right, but then I see people say we play like a pub team and I feel justified (probably wrongly
).Heard the same with Arteta after two games too
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