Anyone writing off cups as ‘worthless’ when you team play their best 11 & still lose need their heads checking. I guess I’m an ‘outer’ & I’ve mostly seen ‘inners’ downplay cups after OgS fails in yet another one.No chance, a lot of the Ole Outers wrote off the EL as a worthless cup, a mickey mouse cup. People wouldn’t be satisfied until a UCL/PL
True. I know I should probably pipe up more often when I see someone hastily erecting straw men for the inners.Oh yeah, I agree about the thread hijacking from the 'out' crew, absolutely.
I just feel there's a-bit of an elephant in the room regarding some nasty individuals on the 'in' side, who seem to get away with some awful posts and constant wumming. But then it seems totally fair game to call out the ones on the 'out' side.
Brighton look a good blueprint for sticking with a good, modern, progressive style of play. They had serious issues with chance conversion, but now they seem to have addrssed that, they look like they'll have a pretty good season. Klopp too at Liverpool: defensively they were pretty bad under him initially, but once he addressed the CB and keeper issue, he reaped the rewards. Neither Potter nor Klopp deviated away from their fundamental principles.Truth, I am a firm believer that if you play good football consistently then trophies will naturally follow especially if you have the spending power. Like how Klopp wemt from losing like six Cup finals in a row to winning the big one.
What absolute nonsense is this? When did I say or suggest that?Not a single big club don't look outside current season regarding squad or demand of results. You have CEO who is in charge for money (so nothing to do with coach).
Zidane would not be perfect fit? Wtf? So by your criteria it is only Neville, Giggs, Ole or Keane i guess. Ridiculous.
And in what shit exactly are we now? Finances are healthy and squad is world class. Only shit is that we don't have a manager who is good enough.
I honestly feel if it was called out, as much as the 'out' suff is, it would only be good for the forum.True. I know I should probably pipe up more often when I see someone hastily erecting straw men for the inners.
Truth, I am a firm believer that if you play good football consistently then trophies will naturally follow especially if you have the spending power. Like how Klopp wemt from losing like six Cup finals in a row to winning the big one.
The ‘Ole In’ crowd have done a great job of grinding me down; I tried to stay out of these threads because any critique is labelled as ‘whiny’, ‘entitled’ or any other superlative that can derail the topic from his actual performances but that post couldn’t be let go.When I hit the unignore button and read that god awful post, I wasn't surprised. Fair play for even giving it a response.
Agree with the whole post but in particular the bold part. From a personal perspective I don’t even get wound up with results anymore. I came back in about 10 minutes into the first half yesterday, read a few whatsapp messages about how we’d started the game & didn’t even bother to watch - the result was predictable as it has been through his tenure.Funny how we interpret things differently. From my reading, it seemed more wanted him gone. Not vocal, just rational people expressing an opinion. Again it's funny, most people I know lost faith in him a long time ago. They're not screaming for his sacking, but they are rather just in acceptance that we won't challenge for major honours under him. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree unless you offer up some sort of statistical proof.
My wider point anyway, was that there's a certain cohort on here who act like it's only these 'clueless idiots' on the Caf that want him gone. But that's just not the case. The fanbase in general seem very divided about him. Showing him support at OT is what we do to managers. It's good for solidarity and shows a united front. There was a poster on here yesterday who had attended the Villa game, who said that there were plenty questioning Ole as they left OT. There seems to be a false perception that showing public support for the manager, means unequivocal support. There are also certain posters on here who I have suspicions about: I suspect they back Ole vehemently on here as a 'badge of honour' and to try to fit into a certain cohort, but away from the keyboard, they are nowhere near as supportive.
Anyhow, I came into this season with real positivity and expected a good title challenge and CL progression. Of course, it's still absolutely possible that we will achieve both of those criteria. However, right now, my doubts about Ole are coming to the fore again. I could lie and pretend everything is rosy and we're only one point off the top, if that's the kind of agenda driven spin you want to hear. But when you actually contextualize things and look at our performances, the teams we have played vs who are rivals have played, and the spin becomes somewhat less positive.
The worrying thing for me is that our performances this season - bar the Leeds game - haven't really been acceptable, and most sensed we would get beaten soon unless we drastically improved. Low-and-behold, we went and lost to a vastly inferior team at OT, got knocked out of the LC and lost our opening CL game. To me, that's just not good enough. Again, if you like, you can put some kind of spin on it about luck, the amount of shots we had, VAR etc. The thing is, I've heard it all before in relation to Ole. I'm backing him for now, but I'll have no problem admitting he has to go unless we majorly improve. Right now, with this squad, this isn't good enough. It's far too amateurish, and we should be playing far more cohesive football.
Good post, and the bolded part is what i think why we always look so disjointed and unorganized in the way we play.This is a bit disingenuous since few of the issues we have, in terms of defensive shape, stem from his desire to stretch the pitch with as many as 6 players in the attacking third. Mourinho-ball was never about that. His motto is "attack with as few players as possible and if that doesn't work, have certain players to join the attack from the second lines". The last time he managed to pull a rabbit out of the hat like that and showcase his "tactical brilliance" was back in 2015, when he used to overload the left side and then have Ivanovic joining in the attack from RB. All things considered, Solkjaer is far more courageous than Mourinho with the general positioning of his players when United attack in full stretch.
But, this is about the how. If you're talking about what we are trying to achieve on the pitch, the truth is that not much has changed. We still want to be as direct as possible and instruct the forward and the wingers to always look to exploit the spaces in-behind the moment we clear the ball in our third. We still don't perceive possession plays as a way to establish control, but only as a means to inviting press and, subsequently, opening up spaces behind the defence. And we still overload one side to switch play as the best way to move the ball forward. In this sense, little has changed, and it comes as no surprise that some problems in our game from Jose's time persist today. The forwards make the early runs and they create pockets of space between the lines, but nobody moves in to occupy them. The lack of any meaningful possession game often kills all rhythm and tempo. Finally, switching sides when there's absolutely zero vertical movement off the ball is nothing more than an exercise in futility.
Something similar is happening with the midfield. People accuse Solsljaer of cowardly tactics, when the simple fact that whoever we pair in there are asked to perform beyond their capabilities is clearly what's at fault. It's true that Mc Fred were rubbish yesterday, but there's a reason they are considered our best choices in the centre of the park. The area of responsibility is huge. And when we're on the ball, our hastiness to be direct and the lack of involvement from the attackers in the build-up often creates a frustrating sight: When our midfielders are on the ball, their teammates move away from them (or stand still in advanced positions) instead of making themselves available. It's not working and would not be working even with Kroos/Modric in their place.
Speaking of Kroos/Modric, let's look at how Zidane became a success in Madrid. He sacrificed an attacking midfielder to force Casemiro down the throats of a fanbase who only want to see their team play with style. And when Bale was underperforming, he took him off in favour of a midfielder (Isco) and reverted to a diamond. Hardly the most attacking of changes, but they allowed Real Madrid to become a more balanced side.
And trust me, Conte would never dare to leave the central channels unprotected. He would think of playing Pogba in there, but only if he knew that the odds would be in his favour in the long run. Just as Matic/Kante were his go-to pair at Chelsea, but he would also deploy Fabregas as a deep-lying play-maker quite often because he was fine with route-one football too. But he did all that with Costa leading the line: A forward tailor-made for this type of football, able to play with his back to goal, wrestle with defenders, keep the ball and chase it like a rabid dog. Not with Tony freaking Martial on 250 thousand quid p/w or with the 37 yo version of Ronaldo. Also, unlike Mourinho, with the patience to help Lukaku improve at Inter.
Going back to Solskjaer, he seems to have backed himself into a corner. He has created a top-heavy side with many forwards who like to rely on instinct and contribute very little in other areas. Thus, the overreliance on Bruno to orchestrate the attack on his own. Then, Solskajaer understands that we have to take better care of the ball (remember him and Mckenna gesturing Bruno and co. to slow down and pass the ball around?). But Matic can't run any more, VdB is not fit for a physical battle and Pogba is a defensive liability... Well, managers are being paid to find solutions, not to ask for transfers all the time. Change the set-up: Matic is the only holding-midfielder you have, so make his area of responsibility smaller. Beek's short-passing can be crisp, so create triangles in the midfield. Pogba has the best range of passing in the whole squad, so make the long diagonal and other options available to him to make up for his mistakes at the back. But when we come down to brass tacks, in most cases, this means that the most crucial player on the pitch must either find a new role or be dropped.
It's not a matter of being defensive. It's a matter of still having no balance in our game. And only good balance can bring consistency. If we want to move away from Fred/McT, we should not replace either one with a fancy ball-playing midfielder. The rest 8 outfield players, especially the 4 ahead of them, have to work much more on the pitch. I still remember when people were calling Lampard crazy for deploying Jorginho in front of the defence. But Jorginho's play-making from deep is world-class. Did Tuchel sign a workhorse to fix the midfield? No, he changed the set-up to provide protection to the Italian and he also coached Chelsea's defensive transition so that their lines don't look like unravelling knitwear when they are getting back to shape.
This is what Solskjaer needs to prioritize because this is where he's failing tactically.
Match day thread? I'd say thats fine. Its heat of the moment stuffIn regards to name calling, do you think posters in the match day threads/performance threads are ‘entitled twats’ when certain players get rounded on regardless of performances or is it only OgS who should be immune to critique?
You’re wasting your time pal, it’s a cult at this point. Ole can do no wrong. The fact that he’s holding back the strongest squad we’ve had in a decade doesn’t matter. It’s Ole in at all cost.Who has wanted Ole out for 3 years? Some serious straw man there. So moving aside from the argument you pose that has never existed what has he done to ‘move him upstairs’, I don’t read as much media as I used to but is he now a sought after DoF in world football? We’ve already got people in place there - if he fails as manager, sentimentality shouldn’t place him in another department.
I usually pass posts like yours by but what a load of tripe, 4 of the 5 ‘hipster’ managers you mention are Tuchel, Klopp, Pep & fecking Conte. Like their football, like them in interviews or not these managers leave OgS in their wake, oh sorry Ole sits back & hits Peps teams on the counter a few times a season only to spend his entire United tenure struggling to beat Villa, Palace, Burnley at home. The Poch fanatics were a special case but your post is running them close.
To say the length of his tenure/Shelf Life is the issue is another laughable piece of mental gymnastics. The ‘hipsters’ who lost their edge at previous stops, at least achieved something before doing so [I’ve already dismissed Poch & Tuchel has proven himself rather aptly in less than a year at Chelsea], the true issue here is posters like yourself who compare OgS to his contemporaries based on nothing tangible. OgS hasn’t ‘lost his edge’, he’s still struggling to prove he has one. He may yet turn it round, I happen to think this squad could do something special if set up correctly but at some point the excuses have to stop, he simply must deliver.
In regards to name calling, do you think posters in the match day threads/performance threads are ‘entitled twats’ when certain players get rounded on regardless of performances or is it only OgS who should be immune to critique?
I'm fine with you questioning Ole. I was just trying to see why Ole needs to be fired. And for what reason. People want Ole out. I want to know why.Bang head on wall.
So you are saying we should not question Ole, maybe until we are in relegation zone? And lose to every team in every game?
See how irritating it is when you craft a strawman argument.
I’ve been on OleIn man, If we get hammered by Villarreal the Glazers should take bold action immediately. But the Glazers are in this fit the cash, not the glory. United’s financials are in pretty good shape right now, so I can’t imagine the Glazers being bothered by poor performances. All’s that relevant to them is cash flow. Short sighted, of course, but as long as the cash is coming in by the truckload, there’s no need for them to change horses.It's not going to be fully up to the Glazers. If United go back down to the Europa I can see our biggest players turning. There's only so long they'll tag along before they realise their season is going down the toilet.
Ole needs to be fired because he is unable to win us the EPL or UCL any time soon, if ever, and those are the only two trophies that truly matter for a club of our size and history.I'm fine with you questioning Ole. I was just trying to see why Ole needs to be fired. And for what reason. People want Ole out. I want to know why.
Apparently the reason is because we don't dominate most if not all the games. Then when it's pointed out that klopp, pep, or turchel don't. The goalposts change. They should get some leeway becaue of their past achievements.
Imo dominating most games seems like unrealistic expectations when we are playing in the most competitive league in the world. But we are allowed to have diffrent opinions. You have yours. I have mine. Doesn't make either of us right. Unless we are in charge of Man Utd, our opinions count for nothing.
This is key, a tactical framework is important and when you put world class players into that you inevitably reap the rewards but any form of possession football seems to be anathema to Ole and I think some of our clueless on the ball is a result of not enough importance being placed on taking care of the ball.Brighton look a good blueprint for sticking with a good, modern, progressive style of play. They had serious issues with chance conversion, but now they seem to have addrssed that, they look like they'll have a pretty good season. Klopp too at Liverpool: defensively they were pretty bad under him initially, but once he addressed the CB and keeper issue, he reaped the rewards. Neither Potter nor Klopp deviated away from their fundamental principles.
And yet you continue with your straw man arguments. Good luck.I'm fine with you questioning Ole. I was just trying to see why Ole needs to be fired. And for what reason. People want Ole out. I want to know why.
Apparently the reason is because we don't dominate most if not all the games. Then when it's pointed out that klopp, pep, or turchel don't. The goalposts change. They should get some leeway becaue of their past achievements.
Imo dominating most games seems like unrealistic expectations when we are playing in the most competitive league in the world. But we are allowed to have diffrent opinions. You have yours. I have mine. Doesn't make either of us right. Unless we are in charge of Man Utd, our opinions count for nothing.
I suppose the thing is, last seasons second place finish could well turn out to be just the same as Joses second place finish. Plenty of reasonable posters tried to raise valid concerns at the end of last season, but were hounded out and labelled all sorts, because in isolation, finishing second looked pretty good. I certainly wouldn't dismiss it, and it was a good positon obviously, but I could certainly still understand the concerns. That's the problem on here, everything is in extremes and too many are desperate to prove their stance is correct, so they have zero interest interest in debating in good faith. I mean anyone who dared to raise any concerns at the end of last season was met with 'you idiot, progress, EL Final, 2nd place finish'.Agree with the whole post but in particular the bold part. From a personal perspective I don’t even get wound up with results anymore. I came back in about 10 minutes into the first half yesterday, read a few whatsapp messages about how we’d started the game & didn’t even bother to watch - the result was predictable as it has been through his tenure.
The man has all the goodwill in the world with me & other like minded fans I know, if I felt he could win big games & this big tournaments consistently then fine but for a long time now I’ve been looking to be proven wrong which hasn’t happened.
We’re too big to ever truly fail; we aren’t going to get relegated or go on a long unbeaten run but on the reverse we haven’t been able to put together runs & wins when it matters. Take the League Cup loss for example, people like to dismiss the competition but it’s about mentality, his fanatics seem to think we will suddenly go from consistently losing knock out games to competing in knock out games at a higher level; it just doesn’t make sense.
I don't think it's for lack of giving importance. I just think it's easier said than done. That's the whole value of coaching.The one thing I can't really understand is the lack of importance we give to basic passing. Not when the coach is Carrick and the manager played with some of the best ball players we've ever had. Makes zero sense to me.
For all the talk of tactics if we just passed and moved to a higher standard we'd be so much better.
He was never sacked at Madrid.Zidane had one of the best squads ever at his disposal, that midfield were world class on many levels. When that team started getting old he was tasked with the job of blending in youth players and rebuilding. He was sacked twice due to his inability to do that, I know he left by his own accord on one of those occasions but let's be honest, he jumped before he was pushed. On top of that, have you seen his transfer record? Do Madrid still have any of the players he signed on the books? Look at Madrid now, he hardly left them in good shape did he?
To be fair, it was written off by both sides of the argument after that dreadful final performance, probably as a coping mechanism.No chance, a lot of the Ole Outers wrote off the EL as a worthless cup, a mickey mouse cup. People wouldn’t be satisfied until a UCL/PL
Exactly. No chance any of the talk now is happening had we won the league and Europa League last season. But we did not, so Ole is rightly under massive pressure.If we blew a lead to Brentford & drew this place would be up in flames, yes.
If Ole had led us to a PL title & a CL title in the last 3 years, and we blew a lead to Brentford & drew, people would be frustrated with the result, but the manager would not be questioned.
Klopp has plenty of credit in the bank at Liverpool, Ole barely has any at United.
If the coaching staff gave passing the importance it should need would we have so many players who struggle with it?I don't think it's for lack of giving importance. I just think it's easier said than done. That's the whole value of coaching.
In his two full seasons in the Premier League, it's 38 games, 19 wins, 11 draws, 8 defeats. (I couldn't be arsed to check his first season, sorry).We were looking forward to 4 home games in a row a few days ago and we've already lost our first 2 of them. Seems we forgot that under Solskjaer our home form has been dreadful. Would love to know the stats.
Thanks. Dreadful that.In his two full seasons in the Premier League, it's 38 games, 19 wins, 11 draws, 8 defeats. (I couldn't be arsed to check his first season, sorry).
That's 68 points which is, quite frankly, terrible. A 50% win rate at Old Trafford.
That is exactly what he is saying. It is like saying that Martial is going to win the Balon d'Or.There’s only one Balon d’Or. Not so for teams.
We are not going to press with Greenwood playing as a striker. Not unless Ole lights up a rocket under his arse.He always turns it around when it looks like the axe could potentially fall… Such a weird few weeks. You just knew watching the first half against Villa. They had better chances. We don’t outwork any opposition team unless you count labouring to create simple chances and chasing back to stop the counter. We need to press from the front!!!
if Mo Salah can win the pl and CL and score a load of goals in a pressing team then surely it’s a coaching/style call as much as it is on the individual players. I think Greenwood is a fit young player. He should be putting almost double the work off the ball than someone like Cavani doesWe are not going to press with Greenwood playing as a striker. Not unless Ole lights up a rocket under his arse.
Things will look better and he will get 3rd or 4thThing is, there were a couple of bad results now and people are flooding threads dealing with managerial change, but soon enough your team will bounce back.
The loss to Young Boys was bad, yes, but it was bad because it was a winnable game and so are all the remaining games of your group. You'll probably win most of them and be fine.
The loss to West Ham in the Carabao Cup, yeah it's not good, but honestly, does anyone care? It's the league cup, the bench players get played, and it's not like it was embarrasment against a lower division team, but a narrow loss against a good PL side.
Aston Villa is a good PL side too, sounds like it was a poor performance, but then I can see Ole's Utd easily getting a win in some other game against some suposed favourite. Hell. how many times has he beaten Man City after people were expecting some debacle?
Whether you like it or not, things will look better again and Solksjaer will continue to do his thing.
3rd or 4th in the PL is not mediocre. It's just not the best. Besides you were 2nd.Things will look better and he will get 3rd or 4th
the mediocrity will continue
And continue
he’s not good enough
Would you be ok with Bayern coming 2nd in Bundesliga back to back?3rd or 4th in the PL is not mediocre. It's just not the best.
Of course not. But it's hardly a comparable situation. The PL has a number of teams with similar financial possibilities at the top.Would you be ok with Bayern coming 2nd in Bundesliga back to back?
I would argue you coming 2nd and us coming consistently 3rd or 4th is similar in that it's not good enough, made worse by not winning any other trophy and by doing poorly in Europe.Of course not. But it's hardly a comparable situation. The PL has a number of teams with similar financial possibilities at the top.
