But why are we playing completely different to when he took over?
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Okay my bad, but his clothing, trainers and all other brands are spelt Cruyff though!
Mate, the poster I actually replied to started his post with "do you know what coaching is?"
If you're willing to say something like that, you have to be willing to back up your opinion.
You can't say something like that, and then get upset and say you're being picked on because someone had the audacity to question the understanding of something you're willing to discuss.
Especially not when I asked a simple question in an honest way, I was never getting at him as you seem to believe I was.
Well maybe he’ll respond. I’ll be interested to see what he says too. But I doubt it will be interesting.
It could be any number of reasons. In my opinion, it's mostly down to the types of players in our poorly assembled squad. I could go into further detail if you're interested.
Fir for what purpose? Beating the likes of Rochdale and Astana? Of course, they fecking are. I can't believe we have folks actually debating we don't have the players to dispatch a 17th placed League One side! No one is asking him to beat every team we play, but the minimum expectation is to not clueless when watching us play. Which is exactly what we look like at the moment, even against absolute trash sides. No identity as to what we are trying to do.
Also what's up with 'no manager would do better than Ole with this squad?' do you believe Ole is the best manager in the world? Because best managers get more out of the players than they are capable of. Look at Liverpool under Klopp, Look at us under Fergie.
You as a United fan are completely entitled to your faith, beliefs and opinion. But let's not pretend there are many legitimate things to latch onto for backing Ole apart from blind faith that he'll get it right.
Just my opinion, but maybe its got less to do with how talented they are and more to do with their work ethic. As countless people in football, who know much more than all of us, has said that talent is useless without work ethic.
I would argue that improvement is usually seen at once in what is being attempted. I don't expect instant results in terms of wins, but for a United team, we at least have to see quicker passing and movement and higher pressing. These things don't require a gradual change - Pep and Klopp did it immediately; it was only the results that took them some time to achieve. I am not seeing it in this team and there's no sign that those basic aspects of a style of play are going to be implemented, let alone implemented successfully.
I can honestly say, i havent seen a United team play with good movement for around 10 years now, thats not on Ole.
This. Irrespective of any board/owners, the managers are more important. Even if we have a capable board and “infinite war chest”, I don’t see Ole Succeeding.
OGS said the Glazers have invested, loud fans aren't proper fans, social media fans aren't as good as in person fans... how can you accept this?
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His results in the league since he became permanent manager; Played 14; Won 4, Drawn 4, Lost 6 with -5 GD. That would put us 13th in the table so far. Two wins in 11 Premier League matches. Club record 7 Premier League matches without an away win. No clean sheet away from home in any competition since. Just 17 goals scored in last 20 matches. Scored more than 1 goal just once in last 14 matches.
If top coaches are agents of innovation, Ole and his coaches are agents of imitation.
We still are a Jose side by structure. Nothing new has been added at all. It's just deteriorating as time goes on. Can anyone see any difference attacking/defending as to when Jose was here because i can't.
He's been here 9 months now and can anyone point to what has improved since he came in? Where is the supposed structure on the pitch? The midfield and attack is absolutely shocking. Every match we do the same old routine of hoofing it up the channels for Rashford to chase. We are still as clueless as ever at attacking vs deep defences. Training ground set-pieces? I can't remember the last time we took a set-piece that was creative and well drilled. Can anyone point to any of the existing players that have improved since he has been here?
The existing players are going backwards, coaching is non-existant, in-game management is abysmal. Everything that requires competence on the training ground or in matches he is completely out of his depth at.
I am grateful for his caretaker period, trying to instill a work ethic into the club and his signings. The problem is, as a manager, it's been a complete car-crash on the pitch and that's why i can't wait for him to go.
If top coaches are agents of innovation, Ole and his coaches are agents of imitation.
We still are a Jose side by structure. Nothing new has been added at all. It's just deteriorating as time goes on. Can anyone see any difference attacking/defending as to when Jose was here because i can't.
He's been here 9 months now and can anyone point to what has improved since he came in? Where is the supposed structure on the pitch? The midfield and attack is absolutely shocking. Every match we do the same old routine of hoofing it up the channels for Rashford to chase. We are still as clueless as ever at attacking vs deep defences. Training ground set-pieces? I can't remember the last time we took a set-piece that was creative and well drilled. Can anyone point to any of the existing players that have improved since he has been here?
The existing players are going backwards, coaching is non-existant, in-game management is abysmal. Everything that requires competence on the training ground or in matches he is completely out of his depth at.
I am grateful for his caretaker period, trying to instill a work ethic into the club and his signings. The problem is, as a manager, it's been a complete car-crash on the pitch and that's why i can't wait for him to go.
They have actually created a top of the notch structure around a good manager and thats what well run clubs clubs do. Stumbling upon a good manager is difficult but having a good structure around the club is good management. Even if the manager is worse, the structure helps alleviate bad buying policy to an extent. We have neither and hence we're in free fall. We have more chances of ending up with a Moyes level manager than a Fergie after Ole. So the priority right now is the structure.
That's patently untrue. Fergie's last seasons were filled with very good football - they were only weaker in comparison to great United teams of the past. There were good phases of play during LvG and Jose's reign (sometimes). Even the football in the first three months of Ole as caretaker were much better than what we have seen consistently since he has become permanent.
What? Didn't he spend the entirety of last season telling us how we'll become a hardworking team? Which is what we are doing right now, we are covering more ground, making more sprints, pressing more than ever before. Last thing you could lay the blame onto is 'lack of work ethic'.
Never amazes me how many new excuses so many of you are able to find.
This basically. Well said.
When was the last time we even scored a set piece ? Really don't have a clue.. Smalling against Man City maybe in the 3-2 comeback?
It's funny how suddenly people are expecting miracles from this squad. Some here still think we have a good squad to finish 3rd. I don't know what they are smoking but it sure must be good.
I keep wanting it to not be true, but that's a pretty accurate assessment. The Xg stuff is all fun with numbers, but from an observers view i don't see much difference either. We have a better defense and are pressing more. But the setup and play is still stale, counter attack tripe. I actually preferred LVGs slow style because you could see the team keep form and move as a unit to create dominance, just without the final end product which he himself admitted was the next build. But there's nothing in it now. No patterns of play. Just trash. And it's not just because we have no creativity. It's much more than that.
This is a big issue. They still see United as a team that should be battling it out with City and Liverpool at the top.
We SHOULD be, but this squad has been so poorly built that there's zero chance of that happening. The players we expect to be pulling their weight aren't either. City have scored more in 3 games than we have in 17.
Mata, Pereira, Lingard, Matic are players that aren't good enough and will never win us anything.
Rashford needs to get back into form, Martial injured, Pogba injured, Shaw injured.
Any team will miss 3 of their best players, add in the average 2nd string and it's no wonder we are struggling.
Saying that, we still managed to beat a good Leicester and Chelsea side. The ability is there, we just need to win against the lower sides that give us less space. Having players that can dribble and beat a man individually is a must to improve this side.
Was there really an adjustment at higher level for Liverpool after or even before Klopp became manager? Or was it more an adjustment to buy players that Klopp wanted and fit his style of play? I honestly don't recall there being major changes. From what I can remember, it was more Klopp coaching and implementing his style which you could see would eventually get even better once they addressed weaknesses (Alisson & VVD) being the most obvious. The 17/18 season comes to mind, United finishing 2nd and Liverpool 4th but you could see they were going in a better direction.
Improvement in terms of Rashford (and other young players with potential) will take time. Team improvement, depending on the circumstances, can be seen immediately, but usually results will take time.
If you envision a very good team and expect us to play like that right now, you'll be disappointed. However, if you genuinely look for signs of improvement, disregarding the results, I think you'll see them. There are quite a few things we're doing right now that we didn't do a season ago.
Klopp's style right now is very different from when he first started, and he also faced the same problem as Ole, breaking down buses and getting done on the counter. Until he was able to essentially replace most of the 11 with his players, he had mixed results. Same with Pep, but to a lower degree since he could complete a clearout much quicker.
And even then, keep in mind most managers will fall short when compared with those two. If we compare all our next managers to them we'd probably have them all sacked for not being good enough as Pep and Klopp, unless we manage to get a mercurial talent. We need to focus on ourselves instead of constantly comparing with others.
We really can't judge Ole fairly without another 2 or 3 transfer windows. Supporting him will help him revamp and revitalise our squad. Heaping pressure on him will only make his job harder.
In terms of ins and outs, the only mistake was maybe Herrera. And we don't know if Ole was responsible for his departure anyway.
I'd rather give him time and the benefit of any doubt, than another big name who will simply start again.
In terms of ins and outs, the only mistake was maybe Herrera. And we don't know if Ole was responsible for his departure anyway.
I'd rather give him time and the benefit of any doubt, than another big name who will simply start again.
The fact that our two most exciting players this season in attack are James (bought from championships) and a 17 year old Greenwood should tell you how ordinary this squad is. We have a long way to go before we can be successful. People who think Pep or Klopp would perform miracles with this squad have no idea how ordinary this squad is.
I don't think anyone is expecting that or asking for miracles. The reality is we're battling it out with the likes CP, Southampton,West Ham, Rochdale & Astana, and have been outplayed by most PL teams we've played so far. We lack any kind of identity and have gone away from attacking football. The entire youth excuse is BS and we are now playing the worst football post SAF. The expectations coming into this season where very low and IMO unacceptable. Ole could have gotten away with not even getting top 4, had he kept playing attacking football and really played our youth in meaningful games but he has managed to even fall below that and that's why fans want him out. Not because he's not competing with City or Liverpool.
They mainly adjusted after Klopp joined them with Edwards having a bigger role. Funnily enough your question reminded me that everyone forget that the club brought Murtough who if I remember correctly has the same type of job that Edwards had at Liverpool prior to Klopp's appointment.
Just like you, I asked him whether he knows what coaching is about. The poster i replied to stated that Ole is not be blamed if Rashford can't finish, Matic can't pass etc. And if that's the problem, then I would really like to know how they are 'coached' or what exactly they do in training because these are basics. Maybe they are top notch during training and shit their pants in actual games. But for that to happen in literally every game is a bit strange.
It's a fact that when you watch teams who are well coached, they do have a plan in mind. It's not something that is defined but you only know it when you see it. Be it a player stretching out defences, quick 1-2s, fake runs, overlapping runs etc that allows space for THAT one pass. Again, i am only mentioning parts of it.
I can't see any of that with United. I don't get the impression that there is a plan. Most of us don't. You may dismiss us by labeling us as 'just fans' but when majority agree that there's no style to our attack, maybe there isn't one.
I get Ole is not the most popular guy but ffs can we stop rewriting theories to support the agenda. We have not been outplayed in any of the game. DO you even know what outplayed means, we were outplayed last season when we played and lost to city or when we lost to Barca or when we lost to PSG in the first leg, that's what you call being outplayed. Chelsea outplayed us for 15 freaking minutes and fans here are acting they produced some mesmerizing football when they did not. Football is not a game of 15 minutes and they for sure did not outplay us. Same with Wolves, we should have easily won that match easily had we been more clinical. They did not outplay us. Crystal Palace was a funny but weird game. They just sat and were extremely lucky with both of their goals. Again we lacked quality and creativity to breach them. You don't get outplayed by having 74% ball possession. Same thing happened with southampton. We lacked the creative spark, not being outplayed. With more quality we should have won. Leicester was a boring game and both sides were dull as feck and same with Westham.We both were average but they were less crap than we were.
I won't say we have been outplayed, we just have been unable to create chance after chance. And our finishing has been really bad. This is no way to say Ole has been perfect, no he has not but let us not change the narratives to make him look even more worse.
Two of those players got fresh deals under Ole, with third negotiating a renewal currently. If you keep rewarding mediocrity, then how will you progress?
Injured players always become better on this place when they are absent. Pogba, Martial, Rashford all played vs Wolves and Palace. We got 1 point. Pogba and Rashford played vs Saints, we got 1 point. Even with our supposed better players, we're still shit. That's the problem. Let all of them come back into the mix, and we'll still see more of the same shit. Want to know why? Because with all 3 of them fit, this club still went on its worst run in 60 years.
They signed few decent players before he went there (Can, Milner, Firmino) but the crop was largely shit (Allen, Origi, Benteke, Ings, Moreno, Clyne, Mignolet, Lovren, Lucas, Skrtel.. the list is actually too big) Their squad was an abomination, but he still reached two cup finals without any signing. That just proves his managerial skill was another level compared to most managers around. Comparison with how Pep and Klopp built their squad makes little sense because they are elite of the elite at the moment. There's no similar manager of their ilk around.
Mate, expecting comfortable victories against lower league teams is expecting too much? One team got beat by City u21s...
These are the games where we can see that something must be going on but the same shite served up again and again? Do you honestly think that getting any kind of decent performances from this lot is beyond achievable?
I see a consistent theme of "manager change fatigue" being touted as being prominent among United fans. I think we have to be wary of anything that hinders logic and reason. If Ole is a good manager, then we should give him time. If he is not a good manager and is not up to the job, having empty principals like manager change fatigue will hurt us in the long run. You never stuck with the manager for reasons such as "we can't change every 18 months". It's a nonsensical reason. If in appointed as manager tomorrow, as soon as it's clear that I'm balls deep into something I haven't a clue how to navigate, then I should be chucked out that very instant.
Nobody is expecting miracles. They're expecting a manager to do his job. If he can't he should go. It's funnier how some believe the manager isn't accountable becuase of his squad isn't ideal. Defunct logic.
We axed our midfield and offense reinforcing it only with inexperienced (though talented and determined) kids - our real investments being limited to defensive players. This is a season for developing youth and rebuilding a team bottom to top (the bottom part being this year's focus it seems). If we make top-four that's a huge achievement - but people in here are judging Solskjær as if he inherited the 2008 team. He didn't - he inherited the worst mess United's been in since 1987 - and even though he's been living and breathing football most his life he too is new to managing a top-tier team so expect him to stumble around a bit while improving as well.
This isn't the finished package - we have a fresh project with a young team that's evolving and a new manager that's also adding to his experience on the fly. We won't know until Christmas 2020 whether or not this investment will work out - until then I'd say love it or leave it to be honest because regardless of whether or not this will end in success - if you're adding to the negativity you're undermining the team and if that's the case then quite frankly you're shite at being a supporter and should perhaps review your own performance in that regard rather than focusing on Solskjaer's.
This isn't the finished package - we have a fresh project with a young team that's evolving and a new manager that's also adding to his experience on the fly. We won't know until Christmas 2020 whether or not this investment will work out - until then I'd say love it or leave it to be honest because regardless of whether or not this will end in success - if you're adding to the negativity you're undermining the team and if that's the case then quite frankly you're shite at being a supporter and should perhaps review your own performance in that regard rather than focusing on Solskjaer's.
A board that allowed the current squad to go into the season is completely incompetent.
I haven't dismissed you at any point.
I would argue that the plan is usually there to be seen against most teams we play.
We don't play the same way against everyone, but using the Rochdale match as an example;
On the ball:
- Try to get the ball outwide as often as possible.
- Either try to cross the ball in, or dribble into space in the box and attempt to cut the ball back
- Be willing to take shots from distance if the opportunity arises.
- Use the fullbacks as a means to advance up the pitch
- Initially try to win the ball back high up the pitch (press)
- Defend with two midfielders and centre backs as the shape.
- Rely on individual defenders such as AWB to win individual duels to stop counter attacks.
We weren't very effective at times, but I'd argue that's down to personnel.
The likes of Lingard and Periera were the main culprits, they just don't play with confidence, and lack ability on the ball to make things happen.
Matic definitely can pass, but his lack of speed means it's difficult for him to find any space, it's also too easy to get by him when he's defending.
I think until the personnel improves, we'll continue to have lacklustre performances.
I don't think it's the perceived patterns of play holding us back.
No idea. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the last time.
Fair enough.
I still believe that there's something fundamentally wrong with the training because we seem to struggle every now and then against everyone. Worse teams put out better performances than us (norvich against city) with worse personnel.
As you pointed out with Chelsea, that's the same United have done in these matches. Play well for 15 - 20 minutes and then drop off, with the exception of the game against Wolves where I did feel we were the better team. Your possession stat is useless as these are teams that are happy to give up possession, especially when they're up 1-0. So stop rewriting theories to support YOUR agenda. You make an excuse for every game, the truth is we weren't good enough and did not get result. Don't blame a lack of quality when the opposition are teams the likes of CP, Southampton and Rochdale.
This is much more constructive than just throwing out cliches about style of play. I think many will agree that our main issue is that we don't create enough clear chances. So rather than putting it down to a lack of style, one can ask why our current style isn't effective enough in this area. How much is the manager responsible for, and how much is down to the players (both in terms of ability and performances)? I believe this will get closer to the actual answers.
The board aren't incompetent mate, they are smart because as long their marketing strategy works wonder for them. When i watch Liverpool vs Chelsea game last week, i've come close from switching team to support Liverpool. I've never felt it before, stress watching United nowadays, from the owners, board, Ed, the manager all shite. Really depressing. Feel sad how my beloved club had become. From the mighty United, we've become a cowardless United. 6 years fans have been suffering. I pray to God, just don't punish us (the fans) like this.
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