Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[hungrywing]

I’ve heard about it before. There’s also a fancy machine at Dortmund that improves players awareness and touch. When you are successful on the pitch all these little ideas and plans look amazing. Right about now there’s people at United doing great theory work on this ‘long term’ vision. It will mean jack squid if we are still performing crap.

It's not standard at most big clubs? Didn't look too big/expensive. It's the contraption/game thingy that pops out balls at you and you have to quickly/accurately redirect them, right?

 

[Mainoldo]

I don't know what your point is? Are you saying our board is doing a good job?

I know you wouldn’t. It doesn’t fit in with what you are trying to get across. My point is they did a crap job with assisting Klopp, if you spin it as his first summer was the big rebuild only for him to get Wijhadrum, Mane and Karius (remember they finished 8th). But we want to make exceptional circumstances for Ole’s current short falls.

 

[AshRK]

No, he is showing that Liverpool weren't better run but their manager still did a great job with what he had.

And it took time. He wasn't an instant success, was he?

 

[Leftback99]

I’ve heard about it before. There’s also a fancy machine at Dortmund that improves players awareness and touch. When you are successful on the pitch all these little ideas and plans look amazing. Right about now there’s people at United doing great theory work on this ‘long term’ vision. It will mean jack squid if we are still performing crap.

Hopefully there are, but with our club it wouldn't surprise me if there isn't.

If we do have a team of people doing great work and the work is actually used then in theory we should see some benefit on the pitch at some point in the future, whether it's identifying future players or even the next manager.

 

[Mainoldo]

It's not standard at most big clubs? Didn't look too big/expensive. It's the contraption/game thingy that pops out balls at you and you have to quickly/accurately redirect them, right?

I couldn’t tell you. I’ve only seen Dortmund boast about it. But it does look amazing.

 

[JPRouve]

And it took time. He wasn't an instant success, was he?

It took a few months from October to February but during that period of time he imposed his style and coached up players.

 

[AshRK]

I know you wouldn’t. It doesn’t fit in with what you are trying to get across. My point is they did a crap job with assisting Klopp, if you spin it as his first summer was the big rebuild only for him to get Wijhadrum, Mane and Karius (remember they finished 8th). But we want to make exceptional circumstances for Ole’s current short falls.

No one is saying that. All most are saying Ole is not the only problem this club has. If just changing managers made you successful we would have already been. The fact that this board keeps on making wrong decision after decision. What makes you think they will appoint a right manager and who would want to work for an incompetent person like Woodward.

 

[RedFin]

We should have won both Astana and Dale by at least 3 goal margin judging by the chances we had but the finishing was awful. But still we didn't play well in either game.

We should have won Wolves, Palace and Soton again judging from the performance. We didn't. Our performances in these games were ok, lacking in attacking areas.

West ham should ve been a draw, can't remember them having chances other than the goal ( might be wrong couldn't watch every minute of the game) and the free kick was a 1 in 10. Mata should've scored and it's 1-1 in the start of the second half and an entirely different game. The performance wasn't good.

Didn't see the Leicester game so wont comment on that. Chelsea we won rightly but wasn't a 4-0 game.

It's not as bad as most say but it should be better. We look clueless in attack and i know most of the players aren't good enough but they can do better. Not individually but as a unit. That's my problem with Ole. Ole seems to be happy with the slow tempo passing, non existent off the ball movement and chipping in crosses to the box. That last one is a really weird as we don't have anyone who's a good header and most of the time we lob the ball in the box ( which is the easiest ball to defend) we have only 1 or 2 players in there and they are standing there which makes it even harder to win the ball.

We need to commit more players to attack. Need late runs to the box from midfield, overlapping fullbacks. Basic stuff. But i'm not seeing that at the moment. Looks like Ole is too afraid to lose the games so he is playing it safer and hoping for some magic from the front line. When we were on the winning run we committed players forward, same like in pre season where i thought we were looking much better. But it's easy to play like that when there is no pressure. But those games give me some hope that Ole might go back to that style if he figures out that things aren't working with the cautious approach.

So after this wall of text my conclusion is that it's not all on Ole and we haven't been as bad as some say, but he should do better. And i'm not even talking about the results. The performances need to be better.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

And it took time. He wasn't an instant success, was he?

It is kind of easier to give time to someone who achieved what Klopp has achieved with Dortmund than the manager of Molde who almost relegated Cardiff once.
You could see the gradual improvement in what he was doing in Liverpool even if it took time, Ole has been here since December and all I see is regression.

 

[AshRK]

It took a few months from October to February but during that period of time he imposed his style and coached up players.

And what did they achieve again that season or even the next season? His team was inconsistent and there was no clear pattern of play. Of course he is a better coach/manager than Ole but he needed time and players to reach to this level. Klopp had the backing of their board in all the way. At no point did you hear murmurs of him under performing or anything like that. Liverpool were lucky they got Klopp.

 

[AshRK]

It is kind of easier to give time to someone who achieved what Klopp has achieved with Dortmund than the manager of Molde who almost relegated Cardiff once.
You could see the gradual improvement in what he was doing in Liverpool even if it took time, Ole has been here since December and all I see is regression.

Klopp>>>> Ole. My point was not to compare the two, I was just stating nothing is achieved quickly. people can now talk in hindisgh and change narratives by saying hey they played great football when in reality it took time. There were games when Klopp's Liverpool look dreadful and needed moment of genius to bail them out.

 

[JPRouve]

And what did they achieve again that season or even the next season? His team was inconsistent and there was no clear pattern of play. Of course he is a better coach/manager than Ole but he needed time and players to reach to this level. Klopp had the backing of their board in all the way. At no point did you hear murmurs of him under performing or anything like that. Liverpool were lucky they got Klopp.

They improved each season that's what they did and that's what we expect from Ole. We don't expect him to win any sort of silverware or challenge City/Liverpool, just improve instead of regressing.

Edit: And that's a weird point to make for you who were claiming that Liverpool were well run, what did they achieve before Klopp?

 

[AshRK]

They improved each season that's what they did and that's what we expect from Ole. We don't expect him to win any sort of silverware or challenge City/Liverpool, just improve instead of regressing.

Fair point. I hope for the sake of the club he improves our result.

 

[Mainoldo]

No one is saying that. All most are saying Ole is not the only problem this club has. If just changing managers made you successful we would have already been. The fact that this board keeps on making wrong decision after decision. What makes you think they will appoint a right manager and who would want to work for an incompetent person like Woodward.

I get that. But if we had a manager like Klopp the incompleteness would not stop him creating a team to challenge for the title. As Liverpool are proving.

Yes that’s the only worry I have with this board. Appointing the right manager. They’ve messed up 4 times.. but that doesn’t mean we should just stop there. Ole and his team have had some nice ideas.. but they are terrible on the football side. So hopefully when they sack him they take on board what he’s started and hire a manager who can develop what should be United’s blueprint.

We have to accept the Glazers aren’t going nowhere; this will always be a business and the board are incompetent. However we’ve sacked 3 managers who have failed to deliver. So I have faith they will sack Ole too.

 

[Mainoldo]

Fair point. I hope for the sake of the club he improves our result.

I’ve got no issue with your hope.. it’s the reality of it that annoys me. He’s clearly not going to improve.

 

[JPRouve]

Fair point. I hope for the sake of the club he improves our result.

Not the results, the performances and the players, short term results at the expense of deep improvements won't serve the club long term.

 

[AshRK]

Not the results, the performances and the players, short term results at the expense of deep improvements won't serve the club long term.

I still think not signing a striker was his biggest mistake. He has ideas but he is not able to implement them and that is where sometimes having a quality #9 who can bail you out will help you. He over trusted our young strikers and that backfired within a month's time. He really needs to sign a striker this Jan or he is in trouble. And of course he needs to find a solution of how to score goals against the teams which will just park the bus.

 

[JPRouve]

I still think not signing a striker was his biggest mistake. He has ideas but he is not able to implement them and that is where sometimes having a quality #9 who can bail you out will help you. He over trusted our young strikers and that backfired within a month's time. He really needs to sign a striker this Jan or he is in trouble. And of course he needs to find a solution of how to score goals against the teams which will just park the bus.

A central midfielder, #10 or right winger are above striker in my list. Martial is perfectly able to be our 9 and Greenwood showed that he can score. We don't have a starting winger or remotely competent #10, while our CM options are thin and lack quality(Fred and Matic should be sent on very long vacations far from the club).

 

[edgar allan]

I get that. But if we had a manager like Klopp the incompleteness would not stop him creating a team to challenge for the title. As Liverpool are proving.

Yes that’s the only worry I have with this board. Appointing the right manager. They’ve messed up 4 times.. but that doesn’t mean we should just stop there. Ole and his team have had some nice ideas.. but they are terrible on the football side. So hopefully when they sack him they take on board what he’s started and hire a manager who can develop what should be United’s blueprint.

We have to accept the Glazers aren’t going nowhere; this will always be a business and the board are incompetent. However we’ve sacked 3 managers who have failed to deliver. So I have faith they will sack Ole too.

Klopp couldn't get this team with forwards with no goals in them to challenge, neither could Pep, Alex or Sir Matt.
It is to wish impossible things.

 

[ash_86]

I think another factor would be both Pep and Klopp knew that the job came with massive pressure for very little gain, and thus were reluctant to accept.

They both haven't been known to work well with that kind of pressure.

Well then what are our chances now to find a good manager? We're in a mess even more than ever before.

 

[AshRK]

One thing Ole was doing very well initially and even at the start of the season (against CHelsea and Wolves) was there was a nice sense of urgency in our play. We were quick in the final third but now it has again gone missing. Could this be because of injuries to Martial and Pogba. I know we had 31 shots against Rochdale and should have scored more goals but while watching I could see how slow we were and just went from sideways to sideways. I also never understood why Fred and Pogba both go deep expecially when we were dominating possession against ROchdale. This is where Ole needs to be quick with his game management and shake things up. He does look clueless in that regard and sadly even Mackenna and Phelan look clueless. Something needs to be fixed int hat regard. I hate saying it but time is definitely running out for Ole and co.

 

[Bobcat]

Yes, ye will get more time(say Poch) because people are aware of his style, his achievements and past record. If fans expect to win trophies under him of course that would be unrealistic off the bat, but I imagine most of our fans are well patient if there is a clear sign on the pitch and clear improvement in our game. Jose was a very controversial figure from the off. Even when he was hired there were plenty who disliked him. His personality also isn't one that would get along with everybody. An up and coming manager or one with a designated style IMO would get much more time compared to someone like Moyes or Ole and to me - rightfully so.

Achievements? Poch has as many trophies on his mantelpiece as i and you do and if he got here and failed to deliver, that would come up pretty damn fast. You go on the assumption that most fans think like you do, giving someone like Poch a lot of rope but you yourself are not willing to give Ole any. Personally i would give Poch time, but you cant make the assumption that everyone would be patient with him because you would.

If Ole wasn't United legend he wouldn't have sniffed the United job.
Not just changing any managers. They are changing managers who aren't up to the task. They've changed 5-6 Ole's and it's clear that for a monumental rebuild job this type of manager doesn't work. How many Klopp's, or Pep's, or Tuchel's or Poch they have changed during that time? All those that they hired were poor managers and couldn't do the job.

Bolded part is probably true, but that should not disqualify him either

Also, Milan changing managers twice a year shows they too were way to eager to blame the manager(s) without looking at the underlying problems. Berlusconi is the perfect example of insane owner, and their squad has deteriorated immensely the last 6-7 years. Also, i'd imagine at least one of those eight(!) managers since 2014 could have lead them to a better spot than they are now if they got some time to make an actual impact

Look mate, no one argues it's a big job, no one expects us to be in the title race this year. The problem I have with Ole/Moyes type of managers is that they will lead us to nowhere and they don't have the quality to do the rebuild - it's that simple. I have no problems getting behind a rebuild job under the right personnel. Based of what I know/seen of Ole - he isn't it. That's it.

This doesn't mean I'll moan if we don't get a Klopp or Pep type of manager, hell I've seen better things from Howe, who also isn't the type of manager that would lead us to success, but I believe a manager who can coach us and can instill some style in the players is the right step forward.

Pretty sure most of the fans think the same way.

That's completely fair, but i think this is the core of the matter. Even a blind man can see that we are poor right now, but imo we are so far down in the shitter that i will take more than one window and one preseason to get us in order. You dont think Ole has what it takes, i still have some hope

But this is where the problem lies. Those three players have played handful of games and in more coherent sides(probably even James at Swansea last year). When results begin to sour and the overall quality of the team is low, along with morale, and their form drops 90% of the fans will come with the pitchforks and say those are deadwood as well.
A manager needs not only to understand the game but pass on his ideas, create some sort of style and ideology and also raise the level of those players. All the successful managers had that.
It's naive to think Ole is that man who will take us forward just because we let go of some of the poor players in our squad. It's not about releasing players but also replacing them without the overall level of the squad to drop to an extend we would hover around 8-10th and struggle to beat Rochdale at home.

This is pure conjecture and completely disregarding that the majority of our players or the team as a whole has been poor for years now. Its not like Lindgaard, Smalling, Sanchez or Matic were amazing last year and then suddenly turned to shit this August.

And again: Ole is the first of our manager since Fergie who have been ruthless with the deadwood. Getting rid of Darmian, Sanchez, Smalling, Fellaini was long overdue. Lukaku might not have been deadwood, but he was clearly a bad fit

 

[zenith]

Let's put ourselves in players point of view. They used to hear Jose Mourinho detailed tactical analysis before the game and what they listen from Ole is probably just "press hard , run hard, through ball to Rashy or to james , defend well , be confident and enjoy the game , let's get them boys". As a player you would have thought he is out of his depth right ?

What a ridiculously bad post, with a while bunch of nonsensical assumptions.

Yeah, sure that is all the likes of Carrick and ole know about football.

 

[reddevil702]

We didn't hear a lot because most of the stuff happened in the backend and silently , the way it should be. Even under Rodgers didn't they challenge for the league until slippy G happened? The way the club was run it was sooner or later they are going to come to top. We talk about them getting Klopp and become a great team, before he Joined Liverpool didn't Woodward talk to Klopp about United Job? Why wasn't he able to convince Klopp to manage us? Given our war chest it should have been a pretty easy thing to convince , no? So how do we know Ed could convince any other good manager when he doesn't have iota of football knowledge? That's where the need to a DOF comes into picture. If we Sack Ole before getting ina proper DOF, we're not going to get any good Managers as far as i can tell.

Timing was the bigger issue here. Klopp was coming off a CL Final loss with Dortmund when United were looking for a new manager. I don't think anyone anticipated Dortmund would collapse the following season and he would end up leaving. LVG was entering his second season and got us back into the CL so we weren't about to let him go. Liverpool sacked Rodgers and Klopp was available, the rest is history. Similar to how we will look back at United hiring Poch.

 

[ash_86]

Timing was the bigger issue here. Klopp was coming off a CL Final loss with Dortmund when United were looking for a new manager. I don't think anyone anticipated Dortmund would collapse the following season and he would end up leaving. LVG was entering his second season and got us back into the CL so we weren't about to let him go. Liverpool sacked Rodgers and Klopp was available, the rest is history. Similar to how we will look back at United hiring Poch.

I would be ecstatic if that happens but unfortunately don't see us doing great until we get our structure right even if we end up with potch.

 

[Mainoldo]

Klopp couldn't get this team with forwards with no goals in them to challenge, neither could Pep, Alex or Sir Matt.
It is to wish impossible things.

If he could do it at Liverpool why couldn’t he do it here? What did Liverpool have that we don’t? Please read my points on the board before you come back and tell me a better board.

 

[He'sRaldo]

If he could do it at Liverpool why couldn’t he do it here? What did Liverpool have that we don’t? Please read my points on the board before you come back and tell me a better board.

I keep saying it, we should really stop bringing up Pep and Klopp. Those comparisons come with massive hindsight.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Well then what are our chances now to find a good manager? We're in a mess even more than ever before.

At some point, we'll have to be patient and allow a manager with the right intentions to make mistakes without scrutinizing everything.

I'm beginning to fear that only when the pressure on the job reduces will we see progress. Unfortunately at that point, our standing would have significantly reduced, resulting in said reduced pressure.

 

[He'sRaldo]

IMO he'll survive the season and I can't wait to see those gone.

I see a lot of posters here talking about "coaching" Rashford to finish or Matic to pass, it's not that easy guys. If it's that easy every player gonna be top with coaching and no club would have to pay 100 - 200 £m for some player. For example what kind of coaching do you think is needed for Lukaku to have a normal first touch ?

And for the 1-2 pass, it's also not as easy as it seems if you ever play football. It's much more difficult to do in attacking as both you/ your teammates are usually marked, very little space and very little time allowed as things happen really fast. It requires players with great passing and movement ability to be effective, they also have to understand each a lot as well. Fact is very few teams in the world are capable of doing the 1-2 pass effectively regularily when attacking. We were one of those under SAF, especially with the Cole - York duo.

For the FB overlapping disappeared issue and also the change from 433 to 4231:

- FB overlapping: we saw this a lot in the first few months under Ole, why it disappeared now ? IMO it's because of Matic. In that time we play 433 with Matic as a holding DM and he usually formed a back 3 with the two CBs allowing the FBs to go forward without worrying too much about their defensive duty. Now his legs are gone and we have no one capable of playing such role.

- 433 to 4231: same reason as above, we lost our only true DM (even he's still here) and especially Herrera. Herrera and Matic allowed us to have the balance between attack and defense. They also were capable of covering for the defense while we're attacked or counter attacked. Now both gone and Ole play 3 CM there to compensate that.

We play 4231 without any real DM but actually 2 CM a bit lower than the CM upfront but anyone of those 3 could make a run into the opponent box if there's an opportunity. I wouldn't call Lingard an AM since he usually performes a lot of CM duties.

So IMO what we really need now is not a RW, striker or AM but a world class holding DM. IMO defense is the shield, attack is the sword but the one who wield both is the mid. If you suck then given how good your shield or your sword is you still suck. The mid gives the team the energy, balance between defense/attack and creativity.

Not signing one in the summer is a tremendous mistake but IDK this is on Ole or Ed to blame.

Pretty much agree with all of this, except we do need a RW as well. I prefer Dan James on the left even though he can play both flanks.

As for Ole, I don't know if he'll survive the season, but if he doesn't it think it will be pretty bad for us. That will basically confirm the position to be a poisoned chalice, if there was any doubt left.

 

[edgar allan]

If he could do it at Liverpool why couldn’t he do it here? What did Liverpool have that we don’t? Please read my points on the board before you come back and tell me a better board.

He couldn't do it with the team we have now, a team with no goalscorers.
A team with poor goal scoring options last year that didn't replace the two forwards that left in the summer.

 

[::sonny::]

Moyes>bad transfers>blame the manager>sack the manager

Lvg>bad transfers>blame the manager>sack the manager

Mourinho>bad transfers>blame the manager>sack the manager

Solskjær>bad transfers>blame the manager>sack the manager

Start again>

 

[Leftback99]

If he could do it at Liverpool why couldn’t he do it here? What did Liverpool have that we don’t? Please read my points on the board before you come back and tell me a better board.

They weren't exactly prolific in Klopp's first season but Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana, Sturridge, Benteke and Origi at the time was more creativity and proven goal threat than our attacking options right now.

 

[Mainoldo]

He couldn't do it with the team we have now, a team with no goalscorers.
A team with poor goal scoring options last year that didn't replace the two forwards that left in the summer.

You’ll have to explain to me what the Liverpool side he took over had that we lack?

 

[Mainoldo]

They weren't exactly prolific in Klopp's first season but Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana, Sturridge, Benteke and Origi at the time was more creativity and proven goal threat than our attacking options right now.

Pogba, Martial, Lukaku and Rashford? You’ve put Lallana and Sturridge in there so I’ll add Lingard and Sanchez. I don’t see why your list trumps mine..

 

[edgar allan]

Pogba, Martial, Lukaku and Rashford? You’ve put Lallana and Sturridge in there so I’ll add Lingard and Sanchez. I don’t see why your list trumps mine..

Sorry to break it to you but Sanchez & Lukaku have actually left & Pogba's heart has also gone.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Ole has failed to improve our attacking play, we rarely score more than once during each game. We all saw how impotent we were at the end of last so why did not the club invest in attacking players? Is it that we can't afford no more than 70m net spend per season or were Ole and the club convinced that the present squad was good enough?

 

[Leftback99]

Pogba, Martial, Lukaku and Rashford? You’ve put Lallana and Sturridge in there so I’ll add Lingard and Sanchez. I don’t see why your list trumps mine..

We haven't got Lukaku and Sanchez. I'm talking about what a manager would have to work with right now.

Sturridge had a 21 goal season for Liverpool when he was fit (Martial and Rashford haven't come close), Benteke a 19 goal season at Villa. Lallana, Firmino and Coutinho all suited Klopp's style of play.

Our forward options are dire and our best one is never fit. This is the main reason we lack goals.

 

[Mainoldo]

Sorry to break it to you but Sanchez & Lukaku have actually left & Pogba's heart has also gone.

This has never been my point. Ole decided to get rid of those players. My point is it’s not different to what Klopp took over.

 

[JPRouve]

Ole has failed to improve our attacking play, we rarely score more than once during each game. We all saw how impotent we were at the end of last so why did not the club invest in attacking players? Is it that we can't afford no more than 70m net spend per season or were Ole and the club convinced that the present squad was good enough?

Without regular Champions League money and our wage bill 70m net is not really far from the limit, we could probably stretch it to 100-110 but don't expect to spend 200m. That's why spending 80m on a CB when your attack doesn't even have enough bodies is a weird strategy.

 

[Mainoldo]

We haven't got Lukaku and Sanchez. I'm talking about what a manager would have to work with right now.

Sturridge had a 21 goal season for Liverpool when he was fit (Martial and Rashford haven't come close), Benteke a 19 goal season at Villa. Lallana, Firmino and Coutinho all suited Klopp's style of play.

Our forward options are dire and our best one is never fit. This is the main reason we lack goals.

Stop moving the goal posts. If we are going to compare this probably we at taking into account the exact squad Ole took over compared to Klopp side he took over. You can’t tell me Klopp doesn’t have Lukaku because Ole decided to sell him. What’s the point in making the comparison. The whole point is who has made better decisions and who had managed their situations better.

Sturridge was finished by the time Klopp got there.. always injured and remained that way. Ontop of that he didn’t like him. Like he didn’t like Benteke (flop) and was happy to let Origi go out on loan (not required). So relative to what he had, he still chose to use his options different. The whole point of why someone will assume Klopp would do a better job. We have these scenarios and people always assume what Ole has done is what the next manager would have done. Why? If Ole was at Liverpool at the time he might have decided to build an attack around Beneteke and decided Firmino wasn’t brexit enough. He was by no means a success at the time.