Isn't this how SAF operated? He was famously not too involved in coaching sessions
Ole has no system that I can see ..... or do I just need better glasses?
- Thread starter The Boy
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
There are more ways to skin a cat (win trophies) then the Liverpool system. Madrid won 100 CL in recent times with a very different system, arguably rather counter based.
Time to stop obsessing over how one particular team is winning. It's short sighted as feck and makes people look like they started watching football 2 years ago.
I'd love to know what the plan is when the ball reaches one of our full-backs in space on the wing. Because it literally seems like they're told to maybe try some combinations to get into the box on that side but if not just pass it back. There's no actual patterns worked on. The amount of times Williams got into space against Luton and ended up going backwards.
Ole seems to think that if he emulates SAF in everything then he will have the same success. Well Ole, I've got news for you and it ain't good.
So literally one manager (who just about happens to be the best ever).
No not literally one manager, just one that I know of, but you asked which other football club operated under this structure and it just happened that yours did in its most successful period ever.
Agreed, I find it odd how much we set up to work the ball wide to a fullback when none of the ones we have are particularly good offensively. It just feels we play that way because it's how we think we should play rather than what works for our players. Whereas actually maybe if we had one or both of the fullbacks holding back it would free up both Pogba and Bruno to push forward.
I think you can make the argument more widely that it doesn't feel we always get the most out of our players. I know the season has barely started so don't want to go overboard but a lot of the issue we saw against CP was similar to what we saw last season. For example if you take Dan James, we know he doesn't work particularly well when he doesn't have space to work with but I don't see how we try and adapt to that. In the past I remember how we used to set up so that we had a lot of play on the left and then Scholes/Rooney would switch the play to Ronaldo/Valencia on the right who'd be one on one with the fullback. Clearly James isn't at either of their levels but I wonder how he'd do if we did try and play him in to some space (or even better if that was Greenwood or going from right to left for Rashford).
I've said it before but I do think the big test for Ole (beyond being seemingly let down in the transfer market this season) is him showing he can get more out of the players. Other managers are working with in general less talented players than Ole and have been able to find a way that suits them to get more out of them then you'd expect and I think we need to see that from him.
I dont think Ole has any system.
The team doesnt play with width, the full backs do not bomb forward, we dont have a target man to play off.
If anything we are a counter attacking team, and this is why we struggle when it comes to breaking down stubborn defences who sit in.
Ole and his staff need to combat this and learn to break down these teams, full backs are key and at present ours offer nothing going forward.
I still think a big target man would be a great addition, to give us an extra dimension, if only we could find someone who can cross the ball.
The team doesnt play with width, the full backs do not bomb forward, we dont have a target man to play off.
If anything we are a counter attacking team, and this is why we struggle when it comes to breaking down stubborn defences who sit in.
Ole and his staff need to combat this and learn to break down these teams, full backs are key and at present ours offer nothing going forward.
I still think a big target man would be a great addition, to give us an extra dimension, if only we could find someone who can cross the ball.
There's no doubt IMO United voted with their hearts and not heads when they gave Ole the job.
It's not a question of hating him. Pretty sure we all love him and still do. He just doesn't appear to have the capabilities of taking us to the next level. Once again it was another panic decision by our club.
That is possibly the most confusing decision the club has ever made and Woodward should be fired for that decision alone. Why give Ole the permanent job during the middle of the season. The club briefed they were going to decide at the end of the season. Ole was not going to take another role during that time. Why not wait. At the end of the season if you think Ole deserves the permanent role, sure go ahead.
I was convinced Poch was getting the job as he's a perfect fit for our club with his style of play. Problem is Ole had that good run where many were saying United are back, Ole at the wheel etc etc.
It killed any chance at the time of getting Pochettino in. As you quite rightly state, United were going to wait till end of season then back tracked. It's now having devasting effect on our club as I don't see any signs of Woodward realising he and others acted in haste.
I think so. If you have the staff that can implement what you want, you don't need to be at the training ground.
coaches can teach high press, counter attacking, defense, offense etc without the main manager there. Plus, delegating is a pretty important skill. No one can do everything but if you pickthe right person for the right job, you'll get everything done well and be able to focus on what you can do that others can't.
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I think we need to replace Phelan/Mckenna with someone more tactically astute, a far better coach.
Ole is a good man manager, has the right vision for the club, and the players trust him.
Ole is a good man manager, has the right vision for the club, and the players trust him.
A manager / 1st team coach will set up the overall plan but obviously he can’t teach every single player every single move.
SAF’s coaches got more involved in our defensive structure (especially as SAF got older and realised he can’t do everything on his own). However attack was still what SAF got most involved with. Most of his coaches didn’t know much about attacking play and they proved it when they left United to manage their own teams.
Oh I most definitely think that they voted with their heads. They have a history of bringing in managers who are just not the right fit for the club. If Oles interim period didn't go as well as it did they knew they would of had to find yet another manager and all the risks that it brings. It's no coincidence that after Oles great run the club decided to give him the job on a full time basis after a couple of loses. They seen the bubble was about to burst and acted accordingly knowing that Ole had the full support from most of the supporters which in turn takes the pressure off Ed. A very very calculating move.
And if we sat back, packed the defence and all "knew our roles and looked well-drilled" and tried to catch them on the counter, it would have probably ended a nil-all snooze fest but there'd be a melt-down of epic proportions about parking the bus against palace.
Palace's game plan is basic af and Hodgson is no genius.
The problem there is that we need another LB though. Williams is right-footed and 'can do a job' on the left but to me he never looks comfortable there, especially going forward.
Hopefully, we can get a proper LB in and we'll see Williams as back-up to AWB.
Even Bielsa has a system? He’s literally the most obsessively dogmatic system-oriented manager in the world.
Towards the end of his time here yes, he started as very hands on but he put more and more trust in coaches for the every day training. It's a case of not letting ego get in the way of broader success & the reason I feel that Mourinho has really struggled (comparatively to his early career) because he wants to be always the main man, dictating everything. It's inevitable that football is ever changing and having lots of different coaches with new or innovative viewpoints would have been impossible had SAF tried to do everything for the entirety of his tenure. There's a reason Pep doesn't try to play the same tiki-taka style he did at Barca, that Conte's 5 at the back was so hard to face when it was new for most PL teams because there's always something different that pushes football in a new direction. Mou's real innovation was he came to the PL when 4-4-2 was widely deployed and use a 4-3-3 to devastating effect with Makelele's role becoming something we still see today in the PL but that about 15 years ago.
Ole certainly has a vision and you can see it in our best games. The issue is, he is tending to go the Ancelotti way in terms of the player/system balance and he has a few high-profile players (Pogba, Maguire, Wan-Bissaka, De Gea), that don’t fit that vision and the compromises he makes are not as elegant as those of Ancelotti (he’s the best current example of an adaptable manager alongside Zidane). In the end, it’s a bit of a mess. And his original vision is not as clear as that of Bielsa/Pep/Conte etc. anyway.
That is why I hate ex United players trying to influence the club from outside.
could you please quantify these ‘devastating effects’ OGS is having on Manchester United?I was convinced Poch was getting the job as he's a perfect fit for our club with his style of play. Problem is Ole had that good run where many were saying United are back, Ole at the wheel etc etc.
It killed any chance at the time of getting Pochettino in. As you quite rightly state, United were going to wait till end of season then back tracked. It's now having devasting effect on our club as I don't see any signs of Woodward realising he and others acted in haste.
Every Joseph, Carlo and Jurgen now know how United play.
We don't play in the centre areas. It's always the full backs trying to cross or if there is space behind try to get that behind the opposition.
Our set up makes it easy to defend if one or more of our players don't do something brilliant individually.
Let's say when AWB gets the ball in our own half near the touchline where he normally operates when we have possession, he has three options.
1. To go forward with the ball near the touch line or pass it to James or Greenwood who is further forward of him on the touchline.
2. Pass it infield either square or slightly back to our DM.
3. Pass it back to Lindelof.
It's very easy to stop that forward pass because on one side is the touchline. He has only one option to execute this pass.
This is where we come up against a cropper. Our set up and formation don't allow a player to come into the inside right position for AWB to make that diagonal forward pass. Neither does James or Greenwood come inside to receive that pass. If they do the whole pitch opens up. AWB will have the space to run into after making the pass and the player in position has the option of making a pass to AWB, play it forward for Martial, play it left for Rashford ( who has to come infield and create the space on the left for Shaw). By the way this is not my own theory but have read the basics of this from a Johan Cruijff book.
Look at the Foden goal. Why do our strikers have to go to the byline and then cross it into the 6 yard box all the time?
I don't think we practice any of these movements. There are too many issues to sort out for United. Too slow as well. If we play a high line we need fast DMS and fast CBs. We have none and to make it worse we have another slow coach in Pogba. His turning reminds me of Inzammam batting and getting run out.
We don't play in the centre areas. It's always the full backs trying to cross or if there is space behind try to get that behind the opposition.
Our set up makes it easy to defend if one or more of our players don't do something brilliant individually.
Let's say when AWB gets the ball in our own half near the touchline where he normally operates when we have possession, he has three options.
1. To go forward with the ball near the touch line or pass it to James or Greenwood who is further forward of him on the touchline.
2. Pass it infield either square or slightly back to our DM.
3. Pass it back to Lindelof.
It's very easy to stop that forward pass because on one side is the touchline. He has only one option to execute this pass.
This is where we come up against a cropper. Our set up and formation don't allow a player to come into the inside right position for AWB to make that diagonal forward pass. Neither does James or Greenwood come inside to receive that pass. If they do the whole pitch opens up. AWB will have the space to run into after making the pass and the player in position has the option of making a pass to AWB, play it forward for Martial, play it left for Rashford ( who has to come infield and create the space on the left for Shaw). By the way this is not my own theory but have read the basics of this from a Johan Cruijff book.
Look at the Foden goal. Why do our strikers have to go to the byline and then cross it into the 6 yard box all the time?
I don't think we practice any of these movements. There are too many issues to sort out for United. Too slow as well. If we play a high line we need fast DMS and fast CBs. We have none and to make it worse we have another slow coach in Pogba. His turning reminds me of Inzammam batting and getting run out.
He bought two of those high profile players you mentioned. Which would be strange if he was planning on playing a possession-based attacking game. But I suspect back then he wasn't planning on doing so. It only changed with the acquisition of Bruno.
Again, I'd love to know what any of the coaches' vision is - if they've done interviews where you can gleam anything about our intentions and what happens in training.
We've had so much criticism of previous managers and hiring different managers and changing course in our recruitment (all warranted criticism) and we've been presented this cultural reboot where finally we're moving in the right direction on the pitch and in recruitment. Well, I question whether our recruitment necessarily reflects a coherent strategy with regards to playing style.
You've read enough post from many members to get the picture without me going through it all again. I've said time and time again tactically he's not clued up. No plan B. SAF Must cringe when he's sees Ole watching matches sit in the stands on his lap top/ iPad instead of trying to motivate his players on the touch line.
He doesn't have a system, not one that I can work out anyway. The longer he's in charge sadly the less we're going to win. It hurts saying it trust me but he's inept. As a manager he'd done nothing to suggest he could handle the biggest club in football so why was he given the job? Perhaps you can educate me because I'm fecked if I know.?
Loved him as a player but sadly that's as far as it goes. It's devasting because those in charge are yet to see it which means we're in for another season without winning a league.
Oh, I don’t think that he wants to build a proper possession-based game. But yeah, that criticism is appropriate, although you have to ask how big was his influence in those transfer decisions.
Yeah, that's the thing. I think many believed that all the talk of real Man Utd and attacking football translated into playing dominant football. The evidence suggests something entirely different.
I'd be very surprised if those players aren't his recruits. It's one of the things he's most lauded for - the cultural reboot, getting in the right characters. Especially with Harry, Phelan worked with him in the past, and I recall Ole mentioning something similar with regards to a "background check" on AWB. Giggsy was probably consulted over James.
Bruno was likely being pitched to every big club in Europe by Sporting and his agents.
so you cant provide any factual reasons or examples on how OGS is having a devastating effect on Manchester United.
I mean these are massive claims that you are making. But all you is respond with is a whole load of unsubstantiated opinion.
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I think the key points for him are (those that are evident):
- fast transitions (not that different from Mourinho, who also prefers them) – but not by using direct long-balls
- playing the ball from defense – one of the most visible traits, although I very much doubt that our personnel suits this tactics. One of the big reasons behind De Gea's horrible form (although mostly he's responsible for that himself)
- high-energy play – ideally, active pressing as well; this is why the difference between our highs and lows are so drastic, once we can't outrun our opponents, we either play uber-defensively (against big teams), or play shit football. And this is why the COVID break worked so well for us. Pogba & Maguire don't really suit this approach and neither does Matić (although he can do it once a week). Signings of Bruno, James and van de Beck seem to highlight Ole's focus on this component; and this is why Lingard still plays for us as much as he does now.
Your seeing it every week on the pitch, how much more factual do you want.
I'd like to see him mix it up a bit, we're far too rigid. For example, if the front three of rashford, martial and greenwood isnt working, then maybe move greenwood up top, martial on the left etc. We need to be fluid in attack which we are not
You can't be surprised. Personally i think Ole has made pretty much everything better since he came in. He got rid of many of the players we wanted out. He has brought in 2-3 quality footballers, and he has has a very positive effect on the players. All the players, pretty much.
My problems is where we go from here, and if Ole actually has what it takes to take the next steps neccessary for us to get back to being the title winning club it has to be.
I haven’t seen any evidence whatsoever that OGS is having a devastating (bad) effect Manchester United. I’ve only seen improvements: best attacking trio in PL in terms of scoring goal, best team in pints since end of lockdown, over achievement vs fan expectations by coming 3rd in PL, many many more quantitative reasons I could provide.
so I’ll ask again, what are you seeing on the pitch that is devastatingly bad for Manchester United?
no one knows the future, but OGS doesn’t stand a chance if the board don’t back him with obvious improvements that the team requires.
True, at least after a certain point. However, he did have a knack for bringing in just the right sort of assistants.
Which is - kind of - essential if that thing is going to work.
Also: it was SAF. And...yeah. It was SAF.
Wow, some people really do just find anything to moan about, we've had 2 games and only 1 in the league, no pre season, the team needs time and if we don't get additions we will struggle, not really anything ole can do about that!
Seems clear to me that he will not get that backing.
Yeah, there are definite similarities between Mourinho and Ole in terms of counter attacking football. Ole wants more running, more pressing, while Mourinho wanted more tactical options.
I guess almost every team is now playing out from the back, but we struggle in getting the ball quickly up the pitch and because our centre backs aren't quick or mobile, they can't really up the tempo. De Gea will need to improve this part of his game because now this seems a requirement.
The high energy bit is something that is needed, but I feel it comes more down to collective responsibility (like not jogging back once we lose possession) and a cohesive tactical plan, which seems to be lacking. Pressing for the sake of pressing is pointless. And as has been mentioned, we don't really have the defense for a high line nor the midfield for aggressive pressing. Relying solely on the forwards to do the pressing is what we've done, and they do it here and there, occasionally forcing an error, but there's always a big gap between our forward line and midfield.
I agree on the biggest weakness to playing progressive football - i.e. the lack of a high line, but it has to be said, not having full backs who are actually good on the ball and clever in their decision making hurts us. And the lack of dynamism in midfield. So, plenty of shortcomings.
But with the average age of the squad so low, this is an opportune time to have proper coaching to implement a clear vision. If there is one.
What we need is a manager that has a clear style he wants his teams to play. Look at Pep, Klopp, Tuchel, as well as Jose and LvG previously. All teams under these managers respectively played roughly the same football. What even is Ole's style? Sure, having good players who show individual brilliance is good, all teams have them, but it seems that's what it takes for United to take the edge. I'll not put too much pressure on the CP game as it was the first after a rocky pre season, but even on an off day, with a superior tactical manager in charge, the players would've had something to fall back on. Under Ole, if something doesn't work as "planned", we're screwed.