Ole has no system that I can see ..... or do I just need better glasses?

[He'sRaldo]

There is a clear system.

What people actually meant by "no system" is really no shape/structure. It's a mess therefore not "systematic".

Our system is not organized and it rely + trusts too much on the players to think for themselves on the pitch.

This is essentially the meaning of it.

For those who don't understand what people mean when they say this, just watch a previous Utd match and try and count the number of touches each player takes before they release the ball. Count how long it takes them to make what decisions. Ask whether the movements look robotic or more spontaneous. For instance Maguire, see how long it takes him to release the ball each time.

When players wouldn't move or make runs under Mourinho, the question was 'what are we doing on the training ground?' Now it's not as bad, but the decision making and movement of the players still seems too individualistic and sometimes even counterproductive.

Right now seems like the lack of a strict system IS the overarching system. So while some see a general framework and can identify a system, others see slow decision making and inefficient, individualistic movements within that framework and wonder about the existence of a system.

 

[POF]

Stam was a CB bought from PSV. He never played outside of Holland and he had just 1 Dutch league under his belt . We had a certain Schmeichel, Irwin and Keane back then with Johnsen doing well during the previous year. So no Stam was not brought to be our defensive leader. He earned that role. We bought him because of his immense potential and his characteristics. In fact I think that Stam was the most complete CB Sir Alex ever had.

Rio was slightly more experienced having played in the EPL which included a successful CL run. However he was far from the safe WC bet he became later on. Just 2 years before Sir Alex ridiculed Leeds for spending 18m for him, claiming that Wes was worth twice the price.

We bought Vidic at the 11th hour. In fact Fiorentina was so close in signing him that they considered suing us for snapping him under their nose. That's how close he was from signing with them

All these players were bought purely because of the characteristics they brought to the team which fitted perfectly to what we needed at the time. As you said, if you spend a record fee on a centre back then the intention is to lead or even drag the defence to a highly ridiculously level. I can't see that happening with Maguire.

Nobody is a safe bet. Fergie would go big on a transfer if he had a glaring gap to fill and he has identified that player as the one to fill it.

Bruce had retired a few years earlier and now Pally was leaving. He went big on Stam to fill the gap. Stam was a leader very early in his time at United. He wore the armband regularly in his time at the club.

After Stam left, United had disaster after disaster at the back. It was like the attempts to replace Schmeichel. Again, Fergie identified the long term fix in Rio and spent huge money to get him. He was supposed to be the leader next to Brown or Silvestre. He never really got there in my opinion but they added Vidic to do it for him.

Maguire does add a lot to the team other than his defensive ability. In such a young inexperienced squad I think he's really important. I do agree that he's not a good enough defender to up the level of the whole defence like Vidic but with the right partner, he can be part of a very solid unit.

 

[Rasendori]

Can someone help me out please (dont know where else to post) but there is threads on here that says I have insifficiant privilages to post and also im limited to 3 a day what do I need to do to get said priviliges ? Its doing my head in now thanks in advance for the help

Hello Goku,

Click the inbox icon located next to your username. You should have an e-mail from Niall. Should be top right of the website. I would've sent you a PM, but I've gathered that you're unable to locate it.

Click ME

As far as I know, any of the staff can give you a like.
A link to the staff members
How to be liked (Let me know if this links works. I didn't read it as a newbie, and as a full member the link isn't valid for me)
How do I earn likes/get promoted? (and other obvious questions) (Let me know if this links works. I didn't read it when I joined, and as a full member the link doesn't work )

If you continue to have issues be sure to get in touch with @Niall @Damien @Sultan or the link to staff members I posted above

Kind Regards,
Rasendori

 

[bsCallout]

I'm sure this is some weird obsession now for people that have no idea what a system would even look like.

They'd watch '08 United and still not have a clue what the system was. But they'd pretend there is one because we won things.

See people constantly talking about individual talents doing X, as if we didn't let Rooney and Ronaldo run riot too.

Get out with your anti-Ole rubbish.

 

[Harry190]

Stam was a CB bought from PSV. He never played outside of Holland and he had just 1 Dutch league under his belt . We had a certain Schmeichel, Irwin and Keane back then with Johnsen doing well during the previous year. So no Stam was not brought to be our defensive leader. He earned that role. We bought him because of his immense potential and his characteristics. In fact I think that Stam was the most complete CB Sir Alex ever had.

Rio was slightly more experienced having played in the EPL which included a successful CL run. However he was far from the safe WC bet he became later on. Just 2 years before Sir Alex ridiculed Leeds for spending 18m for him, claiming that Wes was worth twice the price.

We bought Vidic at the 11th hour. In fact Fiorentina was so close in signing him that they considered suing us for snapping him under their nose. That's how close he was from signing with them

All these players were bought purely because of the characteristics they brought to the team which fitted perfectly to what we needed at the time. As you said, if you spend a record fee on a centre back then the intention is to lead or even drag the defence to a highly ridiculously level. I can't see that happening with Maguire.

My man, he was doing wonders at the World Cup.

 

[monosierra]

It has to be said, we played brilliant stuff 15 minutes either side of half time against Sevilla, but after 60 minutes our forward players stopped making runs off the ball. When you watch Liverpool and city, when they play well, their front 3 or 4 players are always moving.
Whether that’s a fitness thing I don’t know but it’s as important as system.

It could be mental and physical exhaustion. Players might lose their concentration when too exhausted and thus their body fails them too. It was disappointing that OGS didn't have faith in the bench to make a difference though. I guess the XI out there was indeed the best he could muster as a unit.

 

[Bristol_Red_87]

He can easily play under pressure and very rarely makes mistakes with his passing I think that alongside his heading are easily his best attributes.

Apart from the moment he enters the opposition's penalty box, right?

 

[EwanI Ted]

There are two ways a manager can build a great defence

A- he can add WC defenders to it.
B- He can engage into a deep analysis of what he's got and he buys players that compliment the defence accordingly. A classic example of Juventus CL winner of the 95-96. The defence was hardly spectacular (Porrini, Ferrara, Pessotto Vierchowood) but together they were rock solid

Sir Alex was blessed with 3 spectacular CBs two of which could easily be among the top 3 CBs in EPL history. However that wasn't the thought back in the day. Stam was a young CB from PSV. His attributes were spectacular but he was far from a safe bet and the fee we paid for him was considered ridiculous by many Italian critics back in the day. He was paired with Johnsen a Norwegian CB we bought from Besiktas. Meanwhile Rio was bought just 2 years after Sir Alex had ridiculed his transfer fee when he signed for Leeds while Vidic was a guy who was playing in Russia and who was set to sign for Fiorentina. TBH the only proven CB I can think off that Sir Alex bought with the sole intention of going there and immediately become the defence leader was Blanc.

United's defence prior Maguire lacked pace and leadership + was filled with right footed CBs. Spending 80m on pretty much a slight upgrade over Lindelof was silly irrespective how you tackle it. We need to move past buying safe often British players on silly money and look at players like Gabriel (rumoured at 30m), VDB (40M), Achraf (30-35m) and co.

Stam and Rio joined teams full of serial title winners embarking on a years long run of dominance. Maguire joined a team that had only reached the top 4 twice in 6 seasons. Improving a successful team and an unsuccessful are so different you can't sensibly compare them.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Apart from the moment he enters the opposition's penalty box, right?

Ain't that the truth, should be more of a threat considering how strong he is in the air.

 

[Gopher Brown]

Stam was a CB bought from PSV. He never played outside of Holland and he had just 1 Dutch league under his belt . We had a certain Schmeichel, Irwin and Keane back then with Johnsen doing well during the previous year. So no Stam was not brought to be our defensive leader. He earned that role. We bought him because of his immense potential and his characteristics. In fact I think that Stam was the most complete CB Sir Alex ever had.

Rio was slightly more experienced having played in the EPL which included a successful CL run. However he was far from the safe WC bet he became later on. Just 2 years before Sir Alex ridiculed Leeds for spending 18m for him, claiming that Wes was worth twice the price.

We bought Vidic at the 11th hour. In fact Fiorentina was so close in signing him that they considered suing us for snapping him under their nose. That's how close he was from signing with them

All these players were bought purely because of the characteristics they brought to the team which fitted perfectly to what we needed at the time. As you said, if you spend a record fee on a centre back then the intention is to lead or even drag the defence to a highly ridiculously level. I can't see that happening with Maguire.

Stam was a world record fee for a defender and was brought in to replace Gary Pallister as the ‘leader’ in defence. He was so good that he looked great no matter who he played beside (except Gary Neville). Brown, Silverstre, Johnsen and Berg were all very capable of dodgy moments and positioning, but Stam was the leader no question.

 

[devilish]

Stam and Rio joined teams full of serial title winners embarking on a years long run of dominance. Maguire joined a team that had only reached the top 4 twice in 6 seasons. Improving a successful team and an unsuccessful are so different you can't sensibly compare them.

Stam was a world record fee for a defender and was brought in to replace Gary Pallister as the ‘leader’ in defence. He was so good that he looked great no matter who he played beside (except Gary Neville). Brown, Silverstre, Johnsen and Berg were all very capable of dodgy moments and positioning, but Stam was the leader no question.

When Rio joined the defence was a mess. He swiftly turned it into an EPL winner defence. Stam found a more stable team but he fitted in like a glove and we won the treble in that same year. Which leads me to my initial point. Sir Alex brought these players in not only because they were class but also because they fitted well within the team he had. The treble side needed that hard man who could own the defence. Irwin was growing old, Gaz was this whiney little B who needed Keane to protect him from big and evil Vieira while Johnsen was solid but on the quiet side. Which is exactly what Stam was. During Rio's time we needed a top quality CB who had the inches and the pace to cover up for the very talented but equally rash Mickey. Rio provided that as well.

Maguire doesn't do that with the current side. He's a slow, right footed CB that doesn't compliment Ole's chosen partner at all (aka Lindelof). I genuinely thought that Ole would opt for the Smalling-Maguire partnership as good old Mike provided the pace that Maguire lacked and is more suitable for the EPL then Lindelof is but I was wrong. Which really makes me wonder, is it really worth spending 80m on a CB that in short terms needs another 50m-60m new partner? I don't remember me saying that Stam or Rio needed a new expensive CB partner to make them look good.

 

[Matthew84!]

Another poster with no idea about football, after every loss toss pots like this come out

 

[Chief123]

Tbh the way I see it, unless someone from mainstream media and Cox publishes N number of articles, people will always come to with no tactics, no system posts. That's the way it is.

Not saying everyone is like that but that's how the trend and narratives are set

Exactly. Ole must be a phenomenal manager to turn around a 14 point deficit to get our second best finish since Fergie retired by using absolutely no tactics or style of play. Throw the players out and hope for the best.

 

[Chief123]

When Rio joined the defence was a mess. He swiftly turned it into an EPL winner defence. Stam found a more stable team but he fitted in like a glove and we won the treble in that same year. Which leads me to my initial point. Sir Alex brought these players in not only because they were class but also because they fitted well within the team he had. The treble side needed that hard man who could own the defence. Irwin was growing old, Gaz was this whiney little B who needed Keane to protect him from big and evil Vieira while Johnsen was solid but on the quiet side. Which is exactly what Stam was. During Rio's time we needed a top quality CB who had the inches and the pace to cover up for the very talented but equally rash Mickey. Rio provided that as well.

Maguire doesn't do that with the current side. He's a slow, right footed CB that doesn't compliment Ole's chosen partner at all (aka Lindelof). I genuinely thought that Ole would opt for the Smalling-Maguire partnership as good old Mike provided the pace that Maguire lacked and is more suitable for the EPL then Lindelof is but I was wrong. Which really makes me wonder, is it really worth spending 80m on a CB that in short terms needs another 50m-60m new partner? I don't remember me saying that Stam or Rio needed a new expensive CB partner to make them look good.

Yep Rio transformed a shite defence into an amazing one.
Before Rios arrival we had Laurent Blanc aged 64 years old who replaced Jaap Stam. (One of Fergies biggest cock ups).

 

[Gopher Brown]

When Rio joined the defence was a mess. He swiftly turned it into an EPL winner defence. Stam found a more stable team but he fitted in like a glove and we won the treble in that same year. Which leads me to my initial point. Sir Alex brought these players in not only because they were class but also because they fitted well within the team he had. The treble side needed that hard man who could own the defence. Irwin was growing old, Gaz was this whiney little B who needed Keane to protect him from big and evil Vieira while Johnsen was solid but on the quiet side. Which is exactly what Stam was. During Rio's time we needed a top quality CB who had the inches and the pace to cover up for the very talented but equally rash Mickey. Rio provided that as well.

Maguire doesn't do that with the current side. He's a slow, right footed CB that doesn't compliment Ole's chosen partner at all (aka Lindelof). I genuinely thought that Ole would opt for the Smalling-Maguire partnership as good old Mike provided the pace that Maguire lacked and is more suitable for the EPL then Lindelof is but I was wrong. Which really makes me wonder, is it really worth spending 80m on a CB that in short terms needs another 50m-60m new partner?

Maguire is slow on the turn, but he’s head and shoulders above every other defender at the club. His impact has seen us concede 18 few goals in the league this year. I think we should sign another top centre back as it would be foolish not to be as strong as possible in every position. I think Lindelof gets a lot us unfair criticism, as he is far more composed and calm than a Eric Bailly, for example, but just lacks that bit of stature to be one of the best CBs.

 

[Charlie Foley]

Really good post OP

 

[Chief123]

Maguire is slow on the turn, but he’s head and shoulders above every other defender at the club. His impact has seen us concede 18 few goals in the league this year. I think we should sign another top centre back as it would be foolish not to be as strong as possible in every position. I think Lindelof gets a lot us unfair criticism, as he is far more composed and calm than a Eric Bailly, for example, but just lacks that bit of stature to be one of the best CBs.

I agree regarding Macguire. He’s been excellent for us since he’s come in. I honestly believe Lindelof is the bigger problem. Lindelof is the kind of player who does “ok” in games and goes under the radar a lot. He has games where you begin to think he will serve us well for the future and we don’t need a new defender. But then has absolute brain farts in games which makes you realise he needs replacing. He’s just not commanding and strong enough to be a top quality defender.

If we had someone of quality alongside Macguire, it would be an excellent partnership.

Macguire is brilliant on the ball and so composed when stepping out with it even under pressure. He doesn’t get enough credit for that. His long passes are very accurate too.

It wasn’t long ago we had the likes of Smalling and Evans who were shaky as hell when in possession of the ball. Macguire has actually brought calm and composure at the back. Yes he’s not the quickest on the turn, but his other attributes offer a lot more than he gets credit for. A pacey partner alongside him would complement him perfectly.

 

[devilish]

Maguire is slow on the turn, but he’s head and shoulders above every other defender at the club. His impact has seen us concede 18 few goals in the league this year. I think we should sign another top centre back as it would be foolish not to be as strong as possible in every position. I think Lindelof gets a lot us unfair criticism, as he is far more composed and calm than a Eric Bailly, for example, but just lacks that bit of stature to be one of the best CBs.

My point is that its strange that we spent 80m on a CB that doesn't compliment the defenders we've already got. When a club spends 80m on a CB they expect not to need to spend another 50m-60m on another CB to compliment their record signing CB.

May I remind everyone that if you forget last season (which we were a parody of a club) we had conceded less EPL in the three year prior then during this season.

 

[Chief123]

My point is that its strange that we spent 80m on a CB that doesn't compliment the defenders we've already got. When a club spends 80m on a CB they expect not to need to spend another 50m-60m on another CB to compliment their record signing CB.

The problem is the price tag. Macguire is our best defender and was needed when he was brought in. The fact that he cost £80m in our time of desperation is what brings him undeserved criticism. If he cost us £40m, a lot more fans would be appreciating his value to us.

 

[TrustInOle]

But I thought the team wasn't coached or well drilled and only knew one way of playing

Did you not know, fans know best, obviously.

 

[glazed]

Have people said he has no tactics? I thought the accusation was that he has rather basic tactics compared to the drilling of positional sophistication of the high press mob. I reckon he's kind of happy to sign talented players and let them gel organically instead, which is why squad rotation is more of a problem than it needs to be (IMHO). There's no manual that allows players to slot in quickly.

Ole coaching Pogba reminds me of Michael Winner directing Marlon Brando. He said (allegedly) 'Mr Brando, you are a great actor. I am not a great director. So please do whatever you like.'

 

[devilish]

The problem is the price tag. Macguire is our best defender and was needed when he was brought in. The fact that he cost £80m in our time of desperation is what brings him undeserved criticism. If he cost us £40m, a lot more fans would be appreciating his value to us.

The fee hurts him from a financial POV as its only fair to a club to think that the CB's problem is sorted after spending 80m on a CB but there's more to it

Unlike Lindelof, Maguire is very good in air and he's physically strong but similarly to him he lacks leadership, he's right footed and he lack pace pace. If Williams or TFM are playing (lets face it with Shaw always injured we'll be playing the reserve there more often then we want) then spaces will be created on the left flank. Maguire simply lack the pace to cover for that.

Regarding goals conceded its true that we have a better goal conceding record in the EPL then last year. However that year bordered to a parody with Mou wanting out, the manager losing the dressing room and Ole coming in to save the day. However if you compare to the three years prior we had a better goal conceding record then this season. So I wonder. Did the defence really performed that greatly? If yes, was it worth spending 130m for that improvement?

 

[tomaldinho1]

There is obviously a system because it's not kids football where the coach just says 'go out there and have fun' but t's probably fair to say we have one of the least tactically strict systems in the PL. This isn't necessarily positive or negative but when I think of certain teams: Wolves, City, Liverpool, Southampton, Norwich, Spurs (now with Mou), Palace I know exactly how they're going to try to play - they will invariably enforce their style of play onto a game because that's what they feel gives them the best chance of getting a result. With us I know what we will try to do but it's still pretty 50/50 if we'll be able to impose our tactics on a team or if they'll be able to disrupt us.

Sometimes I wonder if the idiotic managerial appointments we made (Moyes>LVG>Mou>caretaker Ole>Ole) are still affecting how we think about tactics and positioning because LVG was at the extreme end and Mou is also obviously very into his team shape and defensive setup. It's like we tried that, didn't like and so let Ole just set up the team in a way he likes and then put all emphasis onto high intensity football with almost every available pass being direct and forwards when possible, an antidote if you will to the years of shite served up by LVG & Mou. We don't need someone like Allegri but I do think we need someone (and this can be Ole, I'm not saying he needs to go) to provide more structure. I have made this point before but our best teams in SAFs latter years were so good because of Queiroz and SAF's acknowledgement of the team's weakness when it came to the positional and tactical side of the game - we've never really replaced him (also Meulsteen to a point here) who have that deep positional coaching knowledge and whilst I like Carrick/Phelan/McKenna none of them have that background and, in my opinion, it shows.

 

[anant]

Have people said he has no tactics? I thought the accusation was that he has rather basic tactics compared to the drilling of positional sophistication of the high press mob. I reckon he's kind of happy to sign talented players and let them gel organically instead, which is why squad rotation is more of a problem than it needs to be (IMHO). There's no manual that allows players to slot in quickly.

Ole coaching Pogba reminds me of Michael Winner directing Marlon Brando. He said (allegedly) 'Mr Brando, you are a great actor. I am not a great director. So please do whatever you like.'

So, would you agree that should Ole get even slightly better at tactics, he'd be the greatest manager right now - better than Klopp, Pep, etc.? Afterall, he's beaten all the top teams convincingly multiple times and using really basic tactics? Just imagine the scorelines if he was slightly better at that?

 

[Sultan]

Can someone help me out please (dont know where else to post) but there is threads on here that says I have insifficiant privilages to post and also im limited to 3 a day what do I need to do to get said priviliges ? Its doing my head in now thanks in advance for the help

I have gone through your rejected post list by various mods. I understand English is not your first language. However, please add a spell-checker and write constructive posts and I'm sure you'll be a full member soon.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/promotion-system-faq-a-must-read-for-new-members.453516/

"Take time to format your posts properly. Use capital letters, punctuation, concise sentences, break long posts into multiple paragraphs. All the stuff you learnt in school basically. Grammar may be a dull subject but messy posts just won't receive likes, simple as that. Read our formatting guide for more guidance"

 

[Sylar]

Investment is a must, no manager is going further with what we currently have. It's such a poor bench for top 6 side.

Agree. And this was the case for City when Pep came.
And for Liverpool when Klopp came.

And both got their investment (though City afforded more luxury for error).

 

[Jibbs]

Not just the system. His recruitment has been poor. 50 million for AWB...astonishing. For prospective both Ven de Beek and Alcantara are available for same amount.

 

[Morpheus 7]

Agree. And this was the case for City when Pep came.
And for Liverpool when Klopp came.

And both got their investment (though City afforded more luxury for error).

Like people can say we need to this or that regarding a manager, it simply doesn't matter when you have this squad. Investment needed, Ole needs to be backed this window. No manager is going further with this group in my opinion. We can't overtake city or Liverpool without properly strengthening.

 

[Foxbatt]

Ole certainly has a system but it doesn't work most of the time.
He doesn't or can't change his system when it doesn't work.
He certainly doesn't have any idea how to get a corner working. Anyone can see that from what we do on corners. This is something that I have been puzzled for some time now. I really can't understand how he and his staff can't see this.
When we beat City, we exploited the same left behind their full backs. We don't do that anymore.
When things don't work out according to plan he doesn't have the capacity or the willingness to change things during the game.
I don't blame him. I think this is something inherent in a person. Scholes can see a few moves ahead and there are good managers or his coaches who can see that. I don't think Ole is that category. Neither is Arsene in my opinion.
SAF recognised this himself and bought good coaches who can. Quiroz, Rene etc. I think Rui Faria can too.

 

[glazed]

So, would you agree that should Ole get even slightly better at tactics, he'd be the greatest manager right now - better than Klopp, Pep, etc.? Afterall, he's beaten all the top teams convincingly multiple times and using really basic tactics? Just imagine the scorelines if he was slightly better at that?

I would say (just my opinion mind) that the flaws in this tactics-lite approach help explain the phenomenon:

1. Players raise their game against the good teams. They are more likely to drop further against the bad teams without a solid system underwriting their performance.

2. The squad players are more likely to feature against the lesser teams.

3. Lesser teams park the bus more, which is not something our tactics (such as they are) are very good at countering. We don't have multiple scenario game plans.

4. Without structure, players tend to get worse over time, not better. I might be wrong but this seems to be more true for midfield and defense than for attackers.

It makes no sense to be better at playing the top 6 than the bottom 13 as there are more points available from beating the latter. But in answer to your question, I'm not sure getting 'slightly better at tactics' is the right approach. We need a complete tactical overhaul that allows us to play in a more sophisticated way. Whether that's high press or the next big thing, I don't know. But it's not what we're doing right now. Is Ole qualified to do this? I doubt it but we will find out next season I guess.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Obviously essentially another 'Ole in' thread for those that get off on the whole 'echo chamber' vibe, but for me Ole is, at the highest level, overall a tactically suspect manager...

He's good on the counter, and he's done well to arrange a group of players who feel good playing for him and part of the reason for that is essentially because of his tactical short-comings, 'just go out and express yourselves', which, of course, was what Fergie used to say to his special players - yet Fergie had more... a lot more.

In game management from Ferguson (as with pretty much all top coaches) was outstanding, with Ole it is utterly awful.

He struggles to impose HIMSELF on a game once it has begun.

If his creative players aren't able to crack the opposition manager's tactics through individual brilliance, he looks clueless - and not in a good way, like Alicia Silverstone in those short skirts and knee-high socks... but in a bad way, like a far more likeable Moyes.

Ole's system when arranging a counter-attack tactic is solid. But is counter footy good enough for Utd in the long run? Well, thus far the majority of fans would say 'yes'.

It IS exciting when Ole gets it right.

But if / when opposition teams come to figure out the counter, a big portion of Ole's wins will dry up, and I'd guess he'll then be replaced.

He's a likeable guy, and has proved many - myself included - wrong that he could at least function as a worthy Utd manager though.

But in terms of instilling a modern tactical system suitable for a financial behemoth that runs throughout the whole club and can challenge for the biggest prizes? He isn't the guy... and there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that.

 

[black country red]

I'm sure this is some weird obsession now for people that have no idea what a system would even look like.

They'd watch '08 United and still not have a clue what the system was. But they'd pretend there is one because we won things.

See people constantly talking about individual talents doing X, as if we didn't let Rooney and Ronaldo run riot too.

Get out with your anti-Ole rubbish.

Good post buddy ole has done what needed to done this season system or no system I wish some of games console managers on here would start to appreciate our players and manager or do one and go and worship at the shrine of there beloved Klopp vvd and Taa

 

[7even]

Off course he has a system and it's usually a 4231 line starting position.

It works very well when all of our "first eleven" is healthy an fit but as noticed against Seville we quickly drop in quality with one or two "starters" is out. If we had Shaw instead of Williams playing on Sunday I'm almost certain the result had been different. That's not because Brandon is bad it's just that Luke is more cultivated, stronger and faster.

Ole's next step would be to upgrade our defense with a better suited partner to Maguire and a more mobile DM then Matic. If we can add a defensive mid with more mobility and speed together with a CB who's pro active and has more determination then Lindelöf then we can start to push our defensive line much further up against the half way line. This will allow Pogba to operate closer to the our offensive line and it will also give us a better shape of our 4231 formation. Right now our midfield is asymmetric and sometimes dysfunctional.

Not to mention with addition of a world class forward like Sancho. That would totally transform our set up. From my small experience I will compare some of Sancho's attributes to a young David Silva. Excellent technique in tight spaces, superb vision and good decision makinge when make a pass or score goals by himself.

 

[rotherham_red]

Stam was a CB bought from PSV. He never played outside of Holland and he had just 1 Dutch league under his belt . We had a certain Schmeichel, Irwin and Keane back then with Johnsen doing well during the previous year. So no Stam was not brought to be our defensive leader. He earned that role. We bought him because of his immense potential and his characteristics. In fact I think that Stam was the most complete CB Sir Alex ever had.

Rio was slightly more experienced having played in the EPL which included a successful CL run. However he was far from the safe WC bet he became later on. Just 2 years before Sir Alex ridiculed Leeds for spending 18m for him, claiming that Wes was worth twice the price.

We bought Vidic at the 11th hour. In fact Fiorentina was so close in signing him that they considered suing us for snapping him under their nose. That's how close he was from signing with them

All these players were bought purely because of the characteristics they brought to the team which fitted perfectly to what we needed at the time. As you said, if you spend a record fee on a centre back then the intention is to lead or even drag the defence to a highly ridiculously level. I can't see that happening with Maguire.

We broke the world record for a defender when we bought Stam. If that doesn't say he was bought in to be the defensive lynchpin, I don't know what does. The fact he had a slow start to his career here, is irrelevant.

 

[glazed]

I'm sure this is some weird obsession now for people that have no idea what a system would even look like.

I reckon if a player passes a ball and another player is there to receive it and this keeps happening and ends in a goal, chances are there is a system in place. If it keeps not happening, chances are there isn't. There is a strong correlation between having no system and losing, as you rightly point out.

Of course Ole has a system. That would be insanely negligent if he didn't. The question is whether it is a good one or not.

 

[Matthew84!]

Not just the system. His recruitment has been poor. 50 million for AWB...astonishing. For prospective both Ven de Beek and Alcantara are available for same amount.

What a load of rubbish

 

[EwanI Ted]

When Rio joined the defence was a mess. He swiftly turned it into an EPL winner defence. Stam found a more stable team but he fitted in like a glove and we won the treble in that same year. Which leads me to my initial point. Sir Alex brought these players in not only because they were class but also because they fitted well within the team he had. The treble side needed that hard man who could own the defence. Irwin was growing old, Gaz was this whiney little B who needed Keane to protect him from big and evil Vieira while Johnsen was solid but on the quiet side. Which is exactly what Stam was. During Rio's time we needed a top quality CB who had the inches and the pace to cover up for the very talented but equally rash Mickey. Rio provided that as well.

Maguire doesn't do that with the current side. He's a slow, right footed CB that doesn't compliment Ole's chosen partner at all (aka Lindelof). I genuinely thought that Ole would opt for the Smalling-Maguire partnership as good old Mike provided the pace that Maguire lacked and is more suitable for the EPL then Lindelof is but I was wrong. Which really makes me wonder, is it really worth spending 80m on a CB that in short terms needs another 50m-60m new partner? I don't remember me saying that Stam or Rio needed a new expensive CB partner to make them look good.

Rio didn't turn them in to title winners, he turned them back into title winners. The other defenders were largely the same as in our dominant 00-01 season - G Nev, P Nev, Silvestre and Brown (Irwin retired).

Lindelof, Bailly, Jones, Smalling, Young, Shaw and Valencia - the defenders Ole inherited - are not good enough. There is no way you can fit one defender into that group and they'll suddenly click into title winning quality. The suggestion is absurd.

 

[anant]

I would say (just my opinion mind) that the flaws in this tactics-lite approach help explain the phenomenon:

1. Players raise their game against the good teams. They are more likely to drop further against the bad teams without a solid system underwriting their performance.

2. The squad players are more likely to feature against the lesser teams.

3. Lesser teams park the bus more, which is not something our tactics (such as they are) are very good at countering. We don't have multiple scenario game plans.

4. Without structure, players tend to get worse over time, not better. I might be wrong but this seems to be more true for midfield and defense than for attackers.

It makes no sense to be better at playing the top 6 than the bottom 13 as there are more points available from beating the latter. But in answer to your question, I'm not sure getting 'slightly better at tactics' is the right approach. We need a complete tactical overhaul that allows us to play in a more sophisticated way. Whether that's high press or the next big thing, I don't know. But it's not what we're doing right now. Is Ole qualified to do this? I doubt it but we will find out next season I guess.

1. I would have agreed, but the same can be said of others when playing against us. Especially if the team was beaten in the last meeting as well - which is the case for City and Chelsea (even Spurs to a degree)

2. I'm sorry, I don't get what you're trying to imply by this point.

3.a. When our players were fit, we've more than not opened the opposition defences - and I'm including games like Southampton and Wolves early in the season, where we were better than the opposition but were just unlucky in front of goal.
3.b. Add to that, our squad players aren't good enough to carve open the defences - certainly not AP and Lingard. I'd say Mata can but it's easier to close him down.

4. But in our case players did get better over time, not worse.

My point was, if his "basic tactics", can beat these top teams on a consistent basis, then think of the scoreline if Ole gets even slightly better here.

The issue is, like Roonster said earlier, we aren't having tens of articles analyzing every move and every pass we make which has led to people making the assumption that we don't have a style. You don't need to invent a completely new tactic to be successful. You just need to continuously evolve with time and as long as he manages to do that, I believe he'd become successful

 

[Leftback99]

Some interesting analysis of our issues here:

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[glazed]

2. I'm sorry, I don't get what you're trying to imply by this point.

I meant that without a very clear system it's harder to rotate out of the first XI, because players take much longer to gel. So you get a big drop in quality of team play when you do rotate.

Which is not to deny that we lack strength in depth as well.