What made SAF the best manager in the world was his pragmatism and his ability to understand the sweeping changes in the game, adapt and then hire assistants/coaches accordingly that specialised in that area. He was way ahead of the curve. He didn't need to coach. Ole doesn't need to coach, but if he doesn't hire the right technical staff and delegate to world class specialists then tactically we're bound to underperform. It's my uneducated opinion that this is happening.
Ole has no system that I can see ..... or do I just need better glasses?
- Thread starter The Boy
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If you watch the teams coached by Pep, Klopp, Nagelsmann, etc, it's clear what their footballing approach is. There's a methodology, a system of movement. Moving parts moving in some systematic fashion based on clear positional or situational triggers on the field. Whether it's overlaps, underlaps, switches, overloads, pressing triggers, with coaches like this very little is left to intuition of the moment. The creative decision of a player is instinctive, but the movement surrounding the ball carrier is systematic, drilled and rehearsed. This is what makes creativity in the right system so consistent. It's easier to be creative if you know which square the pawn is going to occupy.
But, if like us, much of the coaching is on instinctive decision for every player on offensive transition then it becomes more like guess work and trial and error.
But, if like us, much of the coaching is on instinctive decision for every player on offensive transition then it becomes more like guess work and trial and error.
Yeah, think Ole should get some technical help, maybe even get rid of Phelan. Hamstrung Ole by insisting on British buys in his first year. We ended up with 130m worth of players that aren't really suited for playing a high line. Instead we should have taken a more reserved more patient approach with the British thing and waited for the star talents like Sancho. SAF splurged on the Ferdinands and Rooneys not the Andy Carrolls
Exactly, if one too many has an off day, then it turns to a bad game. If everyone knows their tasks, and how their team mates will respond to you getting the ball then this alone will make sure that the team moves forward. As of right now, many of our players seem clueless in what to do, and ends up passing it sideways until someone decides to make a run. I'm sure I'm massively underexplaining Ole's vision here, but I remember feeling the same thing with United under Jose.
On another note, how often do we see Ole on the sideline vocally guiding and cheer on the team? I swear every time the camera's on him he sits like a 14 year old gamer in his chair looking at the VAR screen.
Like what the hell is this?
I've seen this mentioned a lot. Is this a measure of success now? Do all the elite manangers rant and rave on the touchline?
I'm not sure the players even pay attention to that stuff in the middle of game.
If you look at other sports the manager is up in a box with a birds eye view of what is going on so he can make the right judgments.
One game and everything is gone, that's the United fans for you mate.
Players may not hear the details instructions of the manager from the touchline but the players on the same side and middle of the pitch do hear the manager. And if he is raving and ranting you do put the extra effort. You do try to raise your game. On the other hand if you see him passively it shows a defeatist attitude.
We do have a system. It’s just very poorly implemented and can look one-dimensional against a deep defence. We also do not have a plan B.
That's absolutely not true . Yes we have been shit recently but do not play exactly how we played under Moyes LVG and Jose.
The football under LVG was without doubt the most boring terrible shit I've ever witnessed in my life . My son used to beg me to leave games even before HT and then stopped wanting to go .
We may blow hot and cold under Ole but the football has been mainly a lot lot better than under any of the managers since Ferguson
It's not that it's a lot better. It certainly is more exciting as we don't know when we will score or concede.
I don't think that it really has that much effect at all tbh. That to me is a case of wanting him to do something, anything, rather than nothing. When a manager does that it always seems for show and it didn't seem to affect us during that 14 game unbeaten run in the league.
These are premier league players and they know their roles and what they're supposed to be doing before they go out there. A managers job is pretty much done before the players get out on to the pitch and any shouting isn't really going to have much of an effect. Half-time team talks or getting a tactical message to the players at a break in play will have a much bigger effect.
It's night and day compared to Mourinho-ball.
And your post makes no sense - no bloody team in the world knows when it's going to score or concede
He couldn’t care less about systems. He just sends the players out reminding them they’re Manchester United.
Have you ever watched football, birds eye view ffs?
Yes in rugby they sit up in the stands so they can actually see what's happening. It's gives a better view of the overall flow of the game.
You can see feck all from the touch line.
Do we give Solskjaer credit for the player's downturn in form also? Rashford, Fernandes, and Bissaka have all dropped off from their earlier season form.Of course that have. The same posters discrediting ole for their form would be hammering ole if they were all playing worse than they did under Maureen.
Tiresome agenda. I haven’t looked in these negative Ole threads for a while, who is flavour of the month to replace Ole?
... let me guess, still Poch?
I don't think managers have much of a say in a player's individual improvement. I think it is mostly down to that player actually criticising their own performances and acting on it or on any advice given.
The manager is in charge of overall team play, which can help a player in a match. But, it doesn't make them a better player; it makes them a better team.
You can tell we have issues in team play whenever we play teams that want to counter-attack us. Our players don't have that instinctive knowledge of where their teammates should be and what they should be doing. You can tell by the slow passing; the multiple touches on the ball; the looking around trying to find someone. The fluidity isn't there. That is a tactical issue that is bringing the team down.
There are a couple things that stand out to me which point to a lack of proper coaching:
1. Lack of a cohesive press off the ball.
There are so many times when players look as if they know they should be pressing, but aren't quite sure where to go and where their teammates should go. In order for a press to work effectively, the whole team needs to be on the same page. I often see Martial looking to force the play in one direction, but the wingers or midfielders aren't closing down the correct passing lanes. Another example is when Bruno or Rashford press the ball hard but players behind them don't recognize what's going on - it becomes a fruitless effort for one player and they waste a lot of energy in the process.
2. Large gaps in the midfield caused by the inability of our central defenders to make direct forward passes.
Ole seems to have pushed for the use "ball playing" center halves, but the system makes them largely ineffective. We often see Maguire with his head up looking to play forward, but he hesitates and ends up playing a sideways pass to the full back. What's worse is, as this continues, we see Pogba and Matic dropping deeper and deeper throughout the game in an attempt to get the ball from the defense to try to play the proper forward ball. They [Pogba/Matic] end up nearly as part of the back line, receiving a 5 yard sideways pass from the center half, and left with no options other than switching the play to the far side full back or lobbing a ball over the top. This pattern of play causes enormous gaps in the midfield and makes it very easy for the opposition to defend.
1. Lack of a cohesive press off the ball.
There are so many times when players look as if they know they should be pressing, but aren't quite sure where to go and where their teammates should go. In order for a press to work effectively, the whole team needs to be on the same page. I often see Martial looking to force the play in one direction, but the wingers or midfielders aren't closing down the correct passing lanes. Another example is when Bruno or Rashford press the ball hard but players behind them don't recognize what's going on - it becomes a fruitless effort for one player and they waste a lot of energy in the process.
2. Large gaps in the midfield caused by the inability of our central defenders to make direct forward passes.
Ole seems to have pushed for the use "ball playing" center halves, but the system makes them largely ineffective. We often see Maguire with his head up looking to play forward, but he hesitates and ends up playing a sideways pass to the full back. What's worse is, as this continues, we see Pogba and Matic dropping deeper and deeper throughout the game in an attempt to get the ball from the defense to try to play the proper forward ball. They [Pogba/Matic] end up nearly as part of the back line, receiving a 5 yard sideways pass from the center half, and left with no options other than switching the play to the far side full back or lobbing a ball over the top. This pattern of play causes enormous gaps in the midfield and makes it very easy for the opposition to defend.
I think you have played to much football manager.. Cohesion is practised in triangles during training. But player relationships are formed playing together in matches. A big part of its success is players fitting together in that philosophy, and while our young first team has the ability to click. Our squad does not. People need to stop pretend they know some higher philosophy or tactics constantly calling on these managers. As it stands they all had time to fill their squad to their philosophy. Some even get the players they want. We have lost one league game in 8 months. Can Klopp, Pep or Nagel say that? No, they can’t.. Just stop. Please!
Believe me as a season ticket holder I can tell you under LVG was the worst it's ever been . It's definitely alot better under Ole for the majority of it
LVG has been the worst for me, even worst than Moyes. Here the games are broadcast at 6 am because the time zone, I remember falling asleep on many of them. The dullest football I've ever seen.
Ole's football is not exciting but for sure is not as freaking boring to put you to sleep.
I was falling asleep in the Stretford End haha . It was dismally bad football . Yeah we are miles off how we want our team to be playing but we had some signs last season that we would be improving. Hopefully tomorrow starts it off
Yep, we rose to 3rd place last season playing crap football with no fluidity and managers can't improve players. This is what you believe?
OGS seems a preferred system but the players are not disciplined enough. In our squad, we have Rashford, who will cut inside from left wing; Martial, who has a tendency to drift left to cut inside; our left backs Shaw/Williams does not run down the touchline to stretch the defence and instead try to come inside. When Pogba and Fred dribbles, they usually end up going left. It is too congested. Having Matic and his tactical discipline as a Pivot was the solution to this towards the end of last season. Maybe we can push Maguire further up the pitch as a defensive midfielder since he is the captain, slow defensively and too expensive to replace right now.
Against Crystal Palace and the whole last season when Pogba is fit, OGS tried to counter it by putting Pogba on the right side of midfield 2, but it seemed he didn't give enough instructions for Pogba to stick to the right side of central midfield or Pogba is simply the kind of player who does what he wants. The only time Pogba sticked to the right was against Chelsea at the start of last season. Signing Van De Beek could counter this, but we still need attackers who can stretch the right side of defense.
OGS needs much more suitable players to play to his preferred system.
Against Crystal Palace and the whole last season when Pogba is fit, OGS tried to counter it by putting Pogba on the right side of midfield 2, but it seemed he didn't give enough instructions for Pogba to stick to the right side of central midfield or Pogba is simply the kind of player who does what he wants. The only time Pogba sticked to the right was against Chelsea at the start of last season. Signing Van De Beek could counter this, but we still need attackers who can stretch the right side of defense.
OGS needs much more suitable players to play to his preferred system.
Hopefully mate, its been too long al ready.
I think a lot of them actually do. Klopp, Guardiola, Conte, Simeone and Zidane are all managers who are very active on the sidelines. Not quite sure if it actually makes a difference or not but I reckon a lot of people are looking at these managers and then at Ole and feel like he needs to get up and scream at his players a lot more. But like I said, to know if this actually makes any difference to the players we would probably have to ask them.
We relied on Fernandes to make something, contributing to 50% of our goals after he was signed, whether through goals or assists. That is absurdly high and pretty unsustainable. Even De Bruyne, the best midfielder in the league, manages only 30% for City.
Pass to Fernandes and hope he does something or scores a penalty was a very real thing last season. We have seen what has happened since he has dropped off from the earlier form. We have put in some poor performances, and sometimes been very lucky to take full points or any points at all.
It is not the first time we have seen a team press us back from the start, it is just this time we didn't get a penalty to help change the game. We actually find it very difficult to swing the game around from open play.
Watching Bayern games without crowd noise makes me think it makes a difference. Flick gives his players no rest, and you can see the effect when the players make mistakes and they're immediately hounded by him.
I wonder how it works in a full stadium though, would they even be able to hear the manager?
How do KDB and Fernandes figures compare when you remove penalties from the equation?
The penalty issue also undermines your second point and third points. Teams wins penalties through good attacking play. Fernandes didn't conjure all the penalties by himself out of thin air.
Yeah, off the top of my head I'd say the following Prem teams have at least one clear system they consistently use - so not just bog standard formation with the same purpose and the players don't particularly seem to know their brief like say Villa - and play at least sort of well:
Man City, Liverpool, Burnley, Leeds, Brighton, Crystal Palace, Southampton, Sheffield and Wolves. Obviously Dyche is not the manager we want here, but the Burnley players don't look lost.
Too early for me to judge Ancelotti at Everton, Bilic at West Brom or Parker at Fulham.
Arsenal, Chelsea and Newcastle seem like teams that play hard for their managers but I wouldn't really throw them in the "clear effective Plan A" or "listless" batches yet. Arteta does seem promising though and I'm probably being harsh on Steve Bruce because he's not named Stefan Brucio. Lampard I have no idea. I'll definitely be skeptical of him generally if he doesn't play Havertz as a false 9 type. Leicester I would have had in the good category but Rodgers seems to be all over the place and they look disjointed when I've watched them lately.
Villa, Man United, West Ham and Spurs look like poorly managed teams to me when I watch them.
And of course having a clear system isn't the whole thing, or else Van Gaal or Sarri or Villas Boas would have been successes here or Zidane wouldn't have accomplished the damn near impossible by winning the CL 3 times in a row.
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Someone has been catching up on their mythology.
Leicester with everyone fit will probably go back to a team with a clear identity again. Not sure about Newcastle. Otherwise I agree with this assessment.
Will be interesting to see whether Southampton can still deliver that intensity of performance - so far, not so much.
Ole is coaching. Haven't you seen him in his first season had a chat with Lingard, Martial & Rashford in Dubai training 2019? The fact is that both Martial & Rashford have been performing better than they ever done previously, as well as developing Greenwood. He's specialty is coaching the attacking department, he used to be our attacking coach in 2007/2008 season.
We have Carrick coaching the midfield department which you can see the good result from Fred's improvement. As well as the defensive positioning and you can see the positive outcome from our defense last season 3rd best in the league in term of conceded.
I think the build up play from the back coach still need more works. This is probably where my guess on McKenna, don't take my word on it though.
However, one thing for sure is that coaches and manager can develop and improve as well. Under Ole we are trying to play press and win the ball back in midfield. And when we win the ball back, we play direct rather than keep possession to unleash the pace & the fluidity of the attackers. There are limit where coaches and manager can do to improve players especially on players who can't go further anymore.
Southampton might fail, but it's clear what Hassenhutl wants them to do when you watch them play.
I'd you don't think 50% is over reliance then I don't know what to say.
It was also evident that his drop off in form coincided with our big dip in form.
A manager should not be in a position where if one player does not play well, the team does not play well. That is on the manager for making the team overly reliant on one player.
The reason why this has happened is because the team is a bunch of individuals rather than a single unit. They play in a specific formation, but anyone can tell it lacks fluidity. The team thrived off of Fernandes having an unsustainable good period of football. Now, reality is hitting United.
Have you noticed how many time Fernandes point telling players where to go or where to pass? He does it a lot. It is a sign that the team is not well drilled because they do not have an instinctive knowledge or where they should be. The players are even relying on Fernandes for that.
All facts, and nothing but facts.
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Will be gone by Christmas. I truly believe it/ The squad the players, the manager not good enough
MoYeS, Lvg and Mou all played totally different brands of football, they may all have had faults but if you think they are all exactly the same you need to get glasses.
Bayern just won everything with that pathetically outdated 4231
As usual. People don't want to admit it but he was coaching in Norway for a reason
It's definitely very evident today how poorly coached we are as a team. Fecking Brighton have more of a style than us.
Almost 2 years in the job & I just don’t see any pattern or system to our play. I have no idea what we’re trying to do in possession other than hope for a moment of brilliance & defensively we are so shaky. I’d love to know what they’re coaching these players.