Ole playing Pogba as a DLP is sheer idiocy

Pogue Mahone

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Your agenda is tiresome. Do you think we have a passer as good as Pogba that can force him to a more advanced position? It's as simple as that. The problem always comes down to lack of quality. And this has nothing to do with "unlocking" Pogba which is why you always view this entire discussion as "excuses" or "somebody else's fault."

What the OP and many are saying is that we lack quality. We can't have a great midfield without quality. Take Pogba out of the equation and that fact stands. I don't see what's so particularly difficult about this issue.
I have no agenda but you’re dead right this discussion is tiresome. It’s unbelievably repetitive.

Yes, we need more options in midfield. Yes, we’d be a better team with a world class defensive midfielder instead of McTominay.

None of this excuses Pogba’s apparent unwillingness or inability to develop his game over the last three years at United. Never mind his infuriatingly casual approach to playing football. Although it’s quite clear that many of you are absolutely determined to do exactly that.
 

Smores

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Is it just me or have we had the same threads on Pogba for nearly 3 years now?

'Jose needs to stop expecting Pogba to defend'
'Yay Matic signs this will release him from his defensive duties'
"We need to play him in a 3 and let him attack, still too many defensive duties'
"Why is Jose playing him deep ffs'
'Ole unleashes Pogba, this is how you use him'
'Ole plays him deep, erm yay?'

People's opinions seem to flip flop very heavily too. It's certainly not performances that have changed views so i can only surmise it's now good because it's Ole employing the tactic.
 

l0f4s3

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Yep what is he thinking, i remember during Ole honeymoon he was playing in hole and was scoring for fun.
 
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In Rainbows

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I have no agenda but you’re dead right this discussion is tiresome. It’s unbelievably repetitive.

Yes, we need more options in midfield. Yes, we’d be a better team with a world class defensive midfielder instead of McTominay.

None of this excuses Pogba’s apparent unwillingness or inability to develop his game over the last three years at United. Never mind his infuriatingly casual approach to playing football. Although it’s quite clear that many of you are absolutely determined to do exactly that.
Your first post in this thread is calling him a "distracted lazy prat." It's clear what your agenda is.

His inability to develop his game still doesn't change the fact that he's our best midfielder. One of the only players who can actually compete with other players at the other top clubs which is why you guys like to compare him with Eriksen and De Bruyne in order to tear him down. Thank god we got Maguire and AWB. Now if only we can add quality in areas that are currently bringing us down.
 

Bwuk

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Pogba is playing there because he's the only player bar Matic who can drop and pick the ball up deep and start attacks.

Matics legs have gone so Ole doesn't want to play him. If we had another creative player from deep Pogba wouldn't be so deep.
 

RedNed77

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Probably an unpopular opinion, but I'm not actually a fan of his long range passing. Occasionally he'll produce a beauty, but equally often they just seem to end up going out of play or missing their target wildly. Putting him deep seems to increase the likelihood of this happening. I agree with the OP insofar as you want him further up the pitch making those little dinks and through balls.
 

Jordan_mufc

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I agree overall, but didn't we look better because Southampton were down to 10 and were looking to take a point. With teams that try to attack United, Matic might well be too slow. I still don't understand why Fred is not being given a sustained run in the team.
For sure it helped, but you could definitely see that Matic was picking up the ball and recycling it a lot quicker than Pogba or McT was. Also coupled with the fact that the ball was being passed to Pogba and not Lingard/Pereira/Mata helped a lot.

Fred could help, but we are in dire need of a specialist DM. Unfortunately we don't have that, hence why we need to ditch the current formation.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Is it just me or have we had the same threads on Pogba for nearly 3 years now?

'Jose needs to stop expecting Pogba to defend'
'Yay Matic signs this will release him from his defensive duties'
"We need to play him in a 3 and let him attack, still too many defensive duties'
"Why is Jose playing him deep ffs'
'Ole unleashes Pogba, this is how you use him'
'Ole plays him deep, erm yay?'

People's opinions seem to flip flop very heavily too. It's certainly not performances that have changed views so i can only surmise it's now good because it's Ole employing the tactic.
Yup.

But it’s not “now good”. The OP calls Ole’s decision “sheer idiocy”.
 

Bestietom

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Fred has been at United over a year and he hasn't been up to speed I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on that to happen
Fred is not a DM and the only one we have is Matic, unless Garner comes up trumps.
 

Sylar

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Is it just me or have we had the same threads on Pogba for nearly 3 years now?

'Jose needs to stop expecting Pogba to defend'
'Yay Matic signs this will release him from his defensive duties'
"We need to play him in a 3 and let him attack, still too many defensive duties'
"Why is Jose playing him deep ffs'
'Ole unleashes Pogba, this is how you use him'
'Ole plays him deep, erm yay?'

People's opinions seem to flip flop very heavily too. It's certainly not performances that have changed views so i can only surmise it's now good because it's Ole employing the tactic.
I think a problem is, we are one of the 'top teams' who constantly change players / formations / lineups. I cant think of many other top teams who play as many players out of position.
Or who change the formation as much as we do.
or who play certain players in different areas or positions we do.

Im still shocked we dont play a 433 and play our strongest players in their strongest positions (or try find a position they are strong and then build around it even if there are weaknesses)

I think Pogba in a 2 deep is a mistake. When Ole first came in we were closer to a 433 which allowed Pogba to score from open play. Yes it helped we had Herrera. But I think we should just put Pereira and McT (or Fred or Garner) across a three with Pogba. Keep Pogba in the one position.
Keep James on left. Keep Martial up top (when fit). Stop with the 4231 (as most have said, number 10 position is an issue for us).
 

Ole90+3

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The problem is that our defence plays so deep which forces the rest of the players to play deep.

We saw in the 2nd half against Palace and after conceding against Southampton, we became much more threatening when the defence pushed up allowing the rest of the team to play closer to goal.
 

Lentwood

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The problem is this;

We have one world class player, Paul Pogba

However, what makes Paul Pogba world class are that he is so unique. How many other 6ft 4” midfielders are there who can play a 60yrd pass on a six-pence and dance through three players with quick feet and close control? None, I would say.

The problem is traditionally, “true” CMs are usually quite boring and safe players, for a good reason. They have to be tactically/positionally sound, rarely give the ball away and work hard. They are the fulcrum on which the team is balanced, the engine room and the tempo-setters. A player who floats around the pitch, taking risks, trying to beat players and with an average pass success rate of about 70/80% does not really suit this position.

Therefore, you have to work out where else you can get him into the team or who else you can play alongside him to magnify his strengths and accommodate his weaknesses. Unfortunately, no manager has really figured out how to use his huge range of skills without compromising the collective unit
 

Champagne Football

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Ole needs to persist with either Fred or Garner next to McTominay.

Starting Mata or Pereira is going to cost Ole his job. Lingard is useful if we are playing tough away games to Man City/ Liverpool.
 

sparx99

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Didn't we finish 2nd with Matic and Pogba playing as a midfield two? We all expected it to be Herrera Matic Pogba and Mourinho kept not playing Herrera?

It kind of makes sense to play Pogba as a DLP because we have Mata, Lingard & Gomes vying to play No10 but only Matic, Fred, McTominay, Pereira and Pogba to play in a midfield 3. It seems like we designed our squad around playing 4-2-3-1 and not 4-3-3.

If Longstaff was the target in the summer; was the intention to play a three with Longstaff holding, McTominay box to box and Pogba in his usual left of a midfield three role. Then a front three of Rashford, Martial and James/Lingard.
 

Wolff

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We don't have to pass from deep though. What passers to Liverpool have? They win the ball quickly and get it to the forwards as quickly as possible. I have no clue why we are obsessed with total football played out from the back.
Yes, no clue.
Wait what? You think he plays there because he wants to defend?
No. He wants to play there because it gives him freedom to roam. And to make killer passes. Have been watching this in Spain. Creative players come deep when buildup starts. If it’s a chance of counter, they dictate play with passes. You can see Pogba has a lot of freedom on the pitch, and so he should. But he loose the ball to often. That might even be down to players around him not in the right position. You se the same with Eriksen. He comes deep. With Savic and so on.
 

flappyjay

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We don't have to pass from deep though. What passers to Liverpool have? They win the ball quickly and get it to the forwards as quickly as possible. I have no clue why we are obsessed with total football played out from the back.
How many teams play like Liverpool do? They are dependent on their wing backs for assists, with us and most teams it's the midfield.
 

Renegade

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Why do we make such a big deal about having 2 ball playing CB’s if we still need to play Pogba so deep? Am I missing something?
 

ArjenIsM3

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Ole needs to persist with either Fred or Garner next to McTominay.

Starting Mata or Pereira is going to cost Ole his job. Lingard is useful if we are playing tough away games to Man City/ Liverpool.
Think it's a bit too early for Garner, he still looks a bit too scrawny for that position.
 

flappyjay

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Didn't we finish 2nd with Matic and Pogba playing as a midfield two? We all expected it to be Herrera Matic Pogba and Mourinho kept not playing Herrera?

It kind of makes sense to play Pogba as a DLP because we have Mata, Lingard & Gomes vying to play No10 but only Matic, Fred, McTominay, Pereira and Pogba to play in a midfield 3. It seems like we designed our squad around playing 4-2-3-1 and not 4-3-3.

If Longstaff was the target in the summer; was the intention to play a three with Longstaff holding, McTominay box to box and Pogba in his usual left of a midfield three role. Then a front three of Rashford, Martial and James/Lingard.
When we finished 2nd lingard wasn't as rubbish as he is now. The number 10s we play seem to do disappearing acts. We have tried Andreas and Jesse, guess it's Mata's turn next
 

sparx99

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You did look better against Palace when Matic came on and Pogba was pushed further forward.

The solution for me is rather than 2 deeper midfielders and one more advanced, to just play McTominay or Matic holding centrally and any 2 of Pogba, Mata, Lingard, Fred or Pereira either side, with more license to go forward. It's more of a 4-3-3 than a 4-2-3-1, but it's how Liverpool and City do it and it's more effective nowadays than a 4-2-3-1.

With the players you've got, I think you'd be most effective playing:

De Gea

AWB-Lindelof-Maguire-Shaw

McTominay

Mata---------Pogba

James------------------Rashford

Martial​
I've often wondered about playing Mata in a 'David Silva' type of role. Despite his lethargy, he's a million times better than Lingard.
 

CR1

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I think Ole wanted another midfield signing during the transfer window. Then when that didn't happen he understandably started thinking of ways to work around it. I agree Pogba as a DLP isn't the answer though, given how Pogba's best performances for us has always tended to come when played in a more advanced position.

I think this line-up could be the solution:

-------Martial Rashford------
James------------------------
---Pogba Fred McTominay---
Shaw Maguire Lindelöf AWB
-------------DDG-------------

Rashford playing as a central forward with the added responsibility of occasionally drifting out wide right in order to provide width there, pick up the ball and cross it for Martial.

The main objetive with the midfield reshuffle is to allow McTominay to be an 8 and Pogba to be a 10 (-ish). If Fred doesn't come good in this formation, substitute him for Pereira or Matic. He certainly has the work rate and pressing ability, at least. It's really only that he's sometimes been a bit sloppy on the ball that is the issue.
 
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Grande

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There are several good reasons why, but so far they haven’t been good enough ...

Pressing: For Solskjær, active press is even more important in the front than in the middle. Pogba is not a good presser, he is heavy and it probably costs him more energy to press actively than others, and he won’t exhaust himself as he wants to be sharp enough when in possesion. Cantona was a bad presser as well, it’s not so much laziness as priorities. But ... so far, our collective press is a work in progress, which is normal. It takes time to drill a good collective high press, by now it’s better, but only so-so. Medium height press we are quite good at, which is why few teams have troubled us much of the time barring Chelsea’s opening minutes.

Transition to attack: Pogba, on paper, should be a perfect player to transition from defense to attack quickly, particularily against high pressing teams. He’s strong and technical to shield the ball, and has fantastic long passing. If he plays well, most teams won’t dare high press us. But ... so far, in practice, he isn’t succeeding. When he is crowded, he should play quick, simple passes, but instead he dallies and loses the ball in dangerous situations when the other players are storming forward. When he has some space, to often he is using crucial time looking for the long through ball on goal, when he should rather play it simple and faster through the lines and set us up in 4 vs 4 situations repeatedly. Can he learn this? Solskjær and his team is certainly hoping so, but he does seem like a real slow learner when it comes to tactics.

Space: Pogba needs more space than a lot of no 10s. He’s quick on the first yard because of his stride, slower in accelerating on yards 2-10 because of his heavy build, but very fast again when he gets up to speed. This makes hin good to lose a man for a pass, but not so good at losing a marker or making or losing a man for a short run around the box, but again, very good at losing a man at a counter or when approaching the box at speed from behind. He has never to me been particularily useful as a no 10. He can be from midfield. But ... so far, our front four have not been good at keeping the ball in transition. The balance between direct attack and keeping the ball often enough to get second and third waves of attacks is difficult, and we’re struggling with that. Particularily Rashford goes for the kill every time, and either makes it or we lose the ball. So whemn Pogba runs from deep we’ll either be far a head or have lost the ball. Can we improve this? Yes, certainly, but it takes both practice and good enough players able to learn. And confident. And patient.

Most of this worked well in preseason, implying that we are in a good development, but it’s much harder at PL 100% tempo to pull of, showing we have a way to go. But to a degree I think it’s right to say that Pogba’s problems are partly due to how the team works, and partly due to his own need to develop tactical intelligence.

A last note on the 4-3-3 with a left-sided Pogba: Yes, that was his best attacking games last season, but ... he left a hole behind on the left each time we lost the ball, and it impeded our left sided forward, where we have our most dangerous forwards. And it meqnt having only three players pressing from the front, which made it easier to force us low in the field, as even Newcastle managed even when we were fresh and good.

We are not Klopperpool, and will never be better than the second best at Kloppball, but either way: Is it even certain Pogba would be a starter at ‘Pool currently? In which position?
 

WolfInSharp'sClothing

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I've often wondered about playing Mata in a 'David Silva' type of role. Despite his lethargy, he's a million times better than Lingard.
Exactly. I just don't think he's effective in the 'number 10' position and definitely not as a wide player. Earlier in his career maybe, just like David Silva.

But starting from deeper, he's got far more ability than Lingard and him and Pogba either side of a deeper pivot could do some damage.
 

sparx99

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I think Ole wanted another midfield signing during the transfer window. Then when that didn't happen he understandably started thinking of ways to work around it. I agree Pogba as a DLP isn't the answer though, given how Pogba's best performances for us has always tended to come when played in a more advanced position.

I think this line-up could be the solution:

-------Martial Rashford------
James------------------------
---Pogba Fred McTominay---
Shaw Maguire Lindelöf AWB
-------------DDG-------------

Rashford playing as a central forward with the added responsibility of occasionally drifting out wide right in order to pick up the ball and cross it for Martial.

The main objective with the midfield reshuffle is to allow McTominay to be an 8 and Pogba to be a 10 (-ish). If Fred doesn't come good in this formation, substitute him for Pereira or Matic. He certainly has the work rate and pressing ability, at least. It's really only that he's sometimes been a bit sloppy on the ball that is the issue.
I actually think this is maybe the best use of our resources except I would have Fred pushing on from the left of midfield (he's left-footed for start), McTominay as the sitter and Pogba playing as our right-sided midfielder. That way Pogba could drive forward and deliver dangerous crosses from the same sort of position as you often see De-Bruyne and he could attack the far post when crosses come from the left of midfield. He would also then cover for AWB's lack of attacking ability. AWB is also our best tackler and is more suited to cover up Pogba's lackadaisical defending.

-------Martial Rashford------
James------------------------
---Fred--McTominay--Pogba
Shaw Maguire Lindelöf AWB
-------------DDG-------------
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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You did look better against Palace when Matic came on and Pogba was pushed further forward.

The solution for me is rather than 2 deeper midfielders and one more advanced, to just play McTominay or Matic holding centrally and any 2 of Pogba, Mata, Lingard, Fred or Pereira either side, with more license to go forward. It's more of a 4-3-3 than a 4-2-3-1, but it's how Liverpool and City do it and it's more effective nowadays than a 4-2-3-1.

With the players you've got, I think you'd be most effective playing:

De Gea

AWB-Lindelof-Maguire-Shaw

McTominay

Mata---------Pogba

James------------------Rashford

Martial​
That's definitely not how City and Liverpool do it. Take away whatever respect, aura and fear factor the red shirt still emanates, dress these players with a midtable team's kit (let's say Wolves) and they'll depend on others being woefully bad in order to avoid a relegation battle.
 

WolfInSharp'sClothing

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That's definitely not how City and Liverpool do it. Take away whatever respect, aura and fear factor the red shirt still emanates, dress these players with a midtable team's kit (let's say Wolves) and they'll depend on others being woefully bad in order to avoid a relegation battle.
City have Fernandinho or Rodri deeper, with 2 of D.Silva, De Bruyne, Gundogan, Foden or B. Silva either side.

Liverpool have Fabinho or Henderson deeper, with 2 of Wijnaldum, Milner, Ox, Keita, or Henderson (if not playing deeper) either side.

Same theory, but they have better players.

You're spot on. What this highlights is that you don't have the quality of players.

Take away De Gea, Maguire, Pogba, Rashford and Martial and you have a mid-table squad at best.
 

DWelbz19

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Seems like because he does it for France but problem is we don't have a Kante.
It’s not just Kante, the general level of quality in the France side is just far greater than what we have.

They can accommodate Pogba in that position.

Or, in my view, there is less onus on Pogba to do basically everything because others can do things too.
 

Apokalips

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I find it funny that Pogba being "unable to adapt" to playing deep is used as a criticism of him, but Kante's inability to adapt to a different role leads to criticism of Sarri.

Pogba would be fine playing in a set up like City because each player is always supported by others. Our system is a bunch of dudes playing as individuals. Rarely enough quick movement or options for the man in possession.
 

CR1

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I actually think this is maybe the best use of our resources except I would have Fred pushing on from the left of midfield (he's left-footed for start), McTominay as the sitter and Pogba playing as our right-sided midfielder. That way Pogba could drive forward and deliver dangerous crosses from the same sort of position as you often see De-Bruyne and he could attack the far post when crosses come from the left of midfield. He would also then cover for AWB's lack of attacking ability. AWB is also our best tackler and is more suited to cover up Pogba's lackadaisical defending.

-------Martial Rashford------
James------------------------
---Fred--McTominay--Pogba
Shaw Maguire Lindelöf AWB
-------------DDG-------------
Those are some pretty good points you put forward, that I hadn't thought of. The only thing I don't quite like is McTominay as the sitter as I would ideally like to free him up more. Still I would be perfectly happy to see both of these formations that we have posted tried, with Pogba/Fred/McTominay switching places in order to see what works best. Even including Fred on the right as that would allow him to pick up the ball from the defenders with his back towards the opposition's goal, do a half turn with the inside of his left foot and then be in a good position/angle to play a through ball to the forwards which is something that I've seen him do quite well numerous times.
 

Shalashaska

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Why is this actually happening, what is the thinking behind it?

I'm all for giving Ole chance to prove himself this season but this is a egregious error. He's pretty poor in this position as it exposes all his weaknesses and his best position is in an area of the pitch where we are seriously lacking Pogba's outstanding attributes.
I think he is playing Pogba in absolutely the right position, we just don't have enough quality around him.

The Rashford goal against Chelsea is a great example of how he can be effective in this role.

I think the idea that he is somehow a number 10 is something that has been made up since he has been at United due to how he doesn't respond well to having to take responsibility in midfield. I'm not sure he ever truly played number 10 at Juve.

We need a better ball winner next to him, and we need a better number 10 to unlock defences that sit behind the ball.
 

Noc-Z

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Fred and McTominay should play as a 2 with Pogba as a 10 in front of them, I know he's not strictly a 10, but he's definitely better further forward and it's the best I can think of with what we have.

Ultimately, I'd cash in on Pogba as I don't think he's good, commited, focused, consistent or reliable enough but we are where we are unfortunately.
 

Foxbatt

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Now trying to Mata is midfield is going to make it much worse. He is going to get tackled and lose possession far more often than Pogba is that area. The only solution is to play Matic there along with McTominay and let Pogba move a bit further forward. Ole is still trying to fight the last war. He needs to be more flexible and drop this winger business. He needs to go two up with one dropping deeper and 4 midfield players and 4 defenders. Let the full backs and the midfield players provide the width. Our biggest issue is that we are too slow in moving the ball about and our movements off the ball are poor and not in sync with other players.
 

Canagel

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It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Whatever the tactics it's still ends up to be one WC player surrounded by average at best in midfield and advanced midfield.

The truth is that Pogba should leave and find a club with more ambition. We let our useless players leave ie Fellaini and don't replace them, forget adding to the quality we already have.
 
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