He plays him there because his vision and range of passing is good as anyone’s in world football. Unfortunately, the other aspects of his game is not as well suited to the role, but it’s not as illogical as it might first appear.
Ole playing Pogba as a DLP is sheer idiocy
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
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too much sense in this post. instead the Pogba haters will just moan about dispossessions. and be weirdly happy to get rid of our only world class player so we can have mediocre midfielders make safe passes from side to side instead.
Unfortunately for Pogba he needs a club to be built around him. In a team with ‘more ambition,’ he’s not going to be afforded leniency when it comes to his lack of defensive work or nous, however you want to prescribe it, and as such these same criticisms will continue to be prevalent.
The tactics definitely do matter.
Because he does it well for France.
The difference is though France have a solid defence, a solid midfield and attack. Pogba is surrounded by quality that all do their jobs well. United currently don't.
Pogba can play the CM role perfectly fine, but for our team the lack of a good CAM is the bigger issue. We'd be better off playing him there against the easier teams.
So taking the main players out of a team will significantly weaken them? Wow great analysis. So City without Silva's, KDB, Sterling & Aguero would still be racking up 98-100 points yea?
Fred won’t play for United again....
Sheer idiocy is not replacing Herrera.
Ole playing Pogba deeper is needs must.
Ole playing Pogba deeper is needs must.
No, but they'd still probably finish top 6, maybe even top 4, because they have the likes of Gundogan, Foden, Sane, Mahrez and Jesus to come in.
First of all, i just saw that you're a Wolves fan so sorry if my mention of your team offended you in any way. It wasn't intentional, just the first club that sprung to my mind.
You're right about the quality of the players but it's not just that. There's this notion throughout this thread that the answers are pretty obvious and straightforward and that a two-time winner of the CL and his successor don't have a clue about how to build their first team. There's definitely logic behind Pogba's current role in the team and there's also a logic behind Ole's decision to create a transition-based side and not a possession-based one like City.
First things first. Guardiola sets his sides with the instruction to compress all spaces in the midfield and between the opposition's lines. He takes risks by positioning his defensive line extravagantly high on the pitch, by fielding as many creative/attacking players as his tactics can handle and by encouraging freedom off movement in the final third. The trick behind this is the certainty that his side is the one with the better players in these tight spaces: First touch, close control/ball protection, clever of the ball movement and high football IQ. If you put Mata, whose first touch is always sideways/backwards, and Pogba, who needs five touches and his positioning is questionable, in a three-man midfield and you ask of them to dominate the game in tight spaces, i'm sorry to say it, but you're asking for trouble. Ole can't play this type of football with this squad.
Then we have Klopp. I have no love for them scousers, obviously, but the underrating of their first team by many United fans on here has started to become very irritating. Fabinho is a modern defensive midfielder, quick to close down but also smart enough not to get bypassed easily. We don't have that type of player. The closer we came to "creating" one was when Herrera was utilized in this role. But even though Ander was good at collecting second balls and pressing, he got drawn to the ball very often and this made it easier for our opponents to get the ball behind him. We also have Matic who lately seems to turn around slower than an oil tank. Then you have Henderson. Nothing special indeed but his ability to find pockets of space deeper in the midfield and then play a through pass or pick the right time to switch play with his long diagonals is also something we lack. The third one, Wjinaldum, is a decent enough play-maker who can also make late runs in the box which is something that can not be said of Lingard, Pereira or even Mata. Furthermore, Liverpool possess wide attackers who are extremely good at using Firmino's movement in order to get behind defences.
I'm saying this because the problem is not the 4231. We've been there before, once the opposition adjusts we revert to our old poor form. It's about the roles of the players. And now we come to Pogba. We have a player whose passing skills are extraordinary but we also have a player whose positioning leaves a lot to be desired. I remember in Fergie's latter days at the club how Carrick and the back-four would pass the ball around (Zombie passing some called it without understanding its logic) and then Scholes/Giggs would suddenly pop up in a pocket of space and before you could count to... one, the long diagonal towards the winger or the through ball towards Rooney would be on its way. Pogba has the skills but he doesn't know how to pick his moments. Either because his bulk always helped him to keep the ball or because he lacks the intelligence, no one can tell but his coaches who see him every day in training. But he loses the ball often and he spends huge periods during games going AWOL and this is something that frustrates people.
So, play him in a more advanced role. But his bad positioning won't go away if he's being deployed further up the pitch. Going again back to Ferguson, one of his most inspirational managerial moves was to convince Rooney to play in the hole. Wayne in his prime did lots of things well but his supreme ability to find spaces in between the lines while facing the goal is an attribute of his that goes unnoticed by many. From that point onward, he could do at top-level what Lingard/Pereira can't do even at a decent one: Switch play, shoot from distance, play a killer pass, set a one-two... And Fergie's persistence on him playing that role despite Rooney's complaints demonstrates perfectly how a manager can pick the right fights if it's for the greater good and that a pat on the back is not the only way to keep your players content.
Pogba needs others to create space for him. Can we stretch the field horizontally with wingers able to go 1v1? Do we have attacking players who can hold the ball under pressure and function well in between the lines, thus allowing him to pick the killer pass? Can we get players on the end of crosses, so that the quick switch of play (from an advanced position) and a run in the box will become a viable option? Look at France, it's Griezmann's continuous movement, M'bappe's threat of pace and skills on the ball and Giroud's strength and ability to harass defenders and finish in the box that unbalances defences. Pogba provides the finishing touch, the good passing skill & vision that will make the most of all the others' abilities.
What do we have? Rashford can only run in straight lines. Martial's best movement off the ball is (still after all these years) the early run between CBs when we regain possession. Our #10s need space to do their thing, whatever little that is. And here we are discussing why both Mourinho and Ole decided to go into a season with Pogba playing deeper and aiming to set up on the counter our attacking players who, wait for it..., rely heavily on pace and little less to score goals.
There are problems with Pogba in both roles but the logic behind Ole's initial plan isn't at fault. The biggest issue is that we have allowed ourselves to be fully dependent on Pogba having a good game in order to win football matches. Play him in a three-man midfield? Yeah, but only if you have a solid DM/HM (McT can be that player) AND someone like Kroos, a player who can create triangles even in a phonebooth. Otherwise, we'll be looking at the same problems again.
This is a more general post and my thoughts about the OP's question. I wish to make clear again that i wasn't trying to be cheeky.
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Agreed.
No issue at all. You have every right to comment how you see my team (or others), just as I am commenting on yours.
You're post is excellent and very detailed, but I do think as some have underrated opposition players in the past, you are perhaps guilty of doing the same for your players!
As you say, McTominay could be a great holding midfield player in the future. He has aspects that remind me of Carrick and I think once he hits his mid to late 20's, he will be very highly regarded. Mata is also a very good player, but he has been predominantly used further forward at United and I don't think that plays to his strengths. He has the ability to be that Kroos type player, knitting things together in the middle of midfield. He's done it for Spain before. That is why I was saying a midfield 3 of McTominay, Mata and Pogba would for me, be your most effective combination.
Lingard and Pereira aren't as bad as they are made out to be either. They are just not playing with any real confidence at the moment and like others, have been shifted around between different roles which does nothing to help players out of form.
We tried to sign Dybala to play #10 with Pogba deeper... which I think would have worked. Part of the issue is our #10's are Mata, Lingard, & Pereira.
He does the job well for France, but he has Kante beside him & Griezmann at #10. Pogba could do better, but he's not really the issue.
He does the job well for France, but he has Kante beside him & Griezmann at #10. Pogba could do better, but he's not really the issue.
to get the best out of pogba he needs to be played on the left in a three man midfield
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Considering we have no decent number 10, I don't see why we don't play to Pogbas strength and use him in a midfield 3 alongside McT and ? Pogba has to be played with a license to get forward and create. For me he is a disaster without a dedicated defensive workhorse in a midfield 2, gives the ball away, dwells in it too long aswell
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Said before the season started that fans and the media would argue about Pogba in this role for most of the season but I perhaps didn't expect it after just 4 games 
It's needs must and maybe a bad reflection on our planning for the season but it's ridiculously obvious that its not his best role.
It's needs must and maybe a bad reflection on our planning for the season but it's ridiculously obvious that its not his best role.
Well according to the rose tinted fans that try try to put a positive spin on the club's failings, mctominay is supposedly Herrera's replacement and that with him gone it also free's up playing time for pererira......
Yes he will, we'll see him vs Rochdale and in the EL.
We need Martial and Pogba closer together. you have to give your most creative and technical players every opportunity to thrive because we have only 2 of them.
We lose some long rang passing but so many times teams sit deep anyway.
The evidence of Pogba playing well as DLP are for France where he is playing in the best team in the world. Mbappe and Griezmann are meant to feed off Pogba's long passes etc.
Fred is not as shite as most think. However he does lose the ball in the very worst ways. If he can take his finger out we could use Pogba more advanced.
We lose some long rang passing but so many times teams sit deep anyway.
The evidence of Pogba playing well as DLP are for France where he is playing in the best team in the world. Mbappe and Griezmann are meant to feed off Pogba's long passes etc.
Fred is not as shite as most think. However he does lose the ball in the very worst ways. If he can take his finger out we could use Pogba more advanced.
The 4231 is simply not worth using it you don't have a top class 10. If Pogba isn't playing there then switch to a 433 because the other options for the 10 are not good enough.
There are too many issues to solve but at the end of the day the players required to play that kind of open attacking game is not available at United. The defence alone is not good enough to deal with the opposing two strikers 2v2. The left back is the same. Then you look at Pogba, who is also poor defensively and then you add the strikers who cannot defend even from the front and neither can they hold the ball. So the only one left is poor McTominay. If we had a player upfront who can hold the ball then the whole equation changes. I think the main reason why Jose bought Lukaku was in the hope he was the man. Yes he got Zlatan to do that but his injury and his age did not help him either.
This is why I think Ole has no clue when things do not go according to his plan. He should have got Mario Mandzukic when he was available on the cheap. It brings a different variety to our attack. Furthermore is Ole is going to attack he needs to play the two up front and an attacking midfield player behind the front too. Mata is too weak to do that. He is going to get dispossessed easily. We need to play Pereira or Gomes in that position. Both are untried in that kind of position. But that means Pogba plays on the left side of the midfield McTominay on the right and Matic as the DM. I do not like Matic in that position but at the moment in time that is the only option. Otherwise Lindelof could have been pushed forward and Smalling come in for him.
This is why I think Ole has no clue when things do not go according to his plan. He should have got Mario Mandzukic when he was available on the cheap. It brings a different variety to our attack. Furthermore is Ole is going to attack he needs to play the two up front and an attacking midfield player behind the front too. Mata is too weak to do that. He is going to get dispossessed easily. We need to play Pereira or Gomes in that position. Both are untried in that kind of position. But that means Pogba plays on the left side of the midfield McTominay on the right and Matic as the DM. I do not like Matic in that position but at the moment in time that is the only option. Otherwise Lindelof could have been pushed forward and Smalling come in for him.
I'd somewhat agree when he's playing in a two man midfield. To get away with it you do need the right types of players around him. That's why it works with France as they have Kante next to him plus one of the wingers acts almost like a third midfielder.
However in a three man midfield there's no need to 'build it around him'. All that needs to happen is that it's a properly balanced midfield and it'll naturally work. The problem is that in the entire time he's been here we haven't seen that simply because we haven't had the players to play a proper midfield. If there is only one player in the entire squad capable of passing the ball properly and somewhat controlling the team around, it's not going to work. It's something that has to be shared between at least two players, often more. There have been patches where it's worked and we've seen the dividends (most notably when Ole first took over), but there's never going to be consistency in it if it's completely and utterly reliant on one person. If at the end of this season we sell Pogba and bring one player in to replace that aspect the exact same thing is going to happen (unless Gomes or Garner step up and become the second player).
We have no one else there that Ole trusts. That's fair enough. Lingard for all his faults doesn't really lose the ball often and doesn't make many mistakes, so he is played at 10. Andreas and Fred give the ball away a lot and haven't displayed that they have a good enough passing range in PL matches to be sat next to McTominay. That leaves Pogba and Matic. Matic is utter crap, so we play Pogba there.
Whose fault is it that we are playing Pogba there then? Primarily Ed Woodward and the glazers. They wasted their own money, and now are unwilling to spend anymore because we are still making profit for the club. It is obvious to the majority of football fans that we need more quality in midfield. Someone to supply our forwards that will play deeper than Pogba but we didn't buy anyone suited to do that.
Whose fault is it that we are playing Pogba there then? Primarily Ed Woodward and the glazers. They wasted their own money, and now are unwilling to spend anymore because we are still making profit for the club. It is obvious to the majority of football fans that we need more quality in midfield. Someone to supply our forwards that will play deeper than Pogba but we didn't buy anyone suited to do that.
Ole has got to play a higher line. We should be condensing the space available in front of players and trying to suffocate teams in their own half. If we get beat on a counter so what, not like we have been defending all that well in the 2nd half of games anyways. Think we have to play higher up if he is to continue with the same set up. Pogba needs to be around the goal
His thinking behind it is that Pogba is our best player on the ball and getting him on the ball will allow us to have better control of the games. However, Pogba has been quite poor on the ball and very sloppy in possession, so it hasn't worked. Also, Pogba never really controls games because he likes to force play too much too soon, often leading to losing it.
What we needed, and what I, inluding most others said, was to get a proper deep-lying playmaker in the mould of Verratti, Modric, etc.
As it is, if we move Pogba further up then we have to rely on Matic, McTominay and Fred. Whilst they are more suited to the deeper role, we'd lose the passing range Pogba gives us, but I dont think it would be that much of a miss, especially given Pogba's start in the deeper positon.
If Ole is going to move Pogba further forward, then I would like to see Fred come in. Whilst erratic on the ball, he presses very well, looks for forward passes and breaks up play.
He and McTommers played quite well together and something id like to see again.
What we needed, and what I, inluding most others said, was to get a proper deep-lying playmaker in the mould of Verratti, Modric, etc.
As it is, if we move Pogba further up then we have to rely on Matic, McTominay and Fred. Whilst they are more suited to the deeper role, we'd lose the passing range Pogba gives us, but I dont think it would be that much of a miss, especially given Pogba's start in the deeper positon.
If Ole is going to move Pogba further forward, then I would like to see Fred come in. Whilst erratic on the ball, he presses very well, looks for forward passes and breaks up play.
He and McTommers played quite well together and something id like to see again.
This. You put your players in their best position, so they have the best chance to succeed.
That’s not the problem. Problem is he’s playing in PL, he’s just not a PL deep midfielder type.
We got Maguire now!!
Mctominay isn’t a DM, I thought Ole figured that out last season. Playing him there would have been like Fergie playing Fletcher as a DM. Mctominay needs to be pressing a lot closer to the opposition goal.
Pogba could play deep, just with a more disciplined DM with better awareness of danger. Although ideally you’d want Pogba a bit closer to goal.
Pogba could play deep, just with a more disciplined DM with better awareness of danger. Although ideally you’d want Pogba a bit closer to goal.
We have no number 6 or 8 who is better than Pogba. He is a super talented player who can play well across the midfield, unfortunately he has to be sacrificed for the team because he is better as a DLP than Fred and matic combined!
Strongly agree that Pogba playing as DLP is lunacy.Clear as day he belongs further upfield.
Also surprised we sold/loaned 2 players to Inter & didn't ask for Brozovic in return.
He's a DM that can run the show in centre. An upgrade on Matic. Enough of an engine so that we won't miss Herrera. Of a decent age. Is fantastic at playing long passes (to a much higher accuracy than Maguire & Fred).
Brozovic would have freed Pogba to play in the hole. Surely everyone at United could see we needed a midfielder with Herrera + Fellaini gone, Matic done & Fred off the pace. My only guess is we tried but he's too comfortable in Milan with his buddies Handanovic & Skriniar.
Also surprised we sold/loaned 2 players to Inter & didn't ask for Brozovic in return.
He's a DM that can run the show in centre. An upgrade on Matic. Enough of an engine so that we won't miss Herrera. Of a decent age. Is fantastic at playing long passes (to a much higher accuracy than Maguire & Fred).
Brozovic would have freed Pogba to play in the hole. Surely everyone at United could see we needed a midfielder with Herrera + Fellaini gone, Matic done & Fred off the pace. My only guess is we tried but he's too comfortable in Milan with his buddies Handanovic & Skriniar.
The problem is that we failed to buy players around Pogba, we needed at least two more midfield players of real quality who at not 29/30 and £300K a week.
He needs a DLP next to him and another runner. Pirlo and Vidal/Marchisio were perfect in that regard. If only Herrera wasn't let go him and someone like Moutinho would be perfect complements.
Yeah, I'd really like to see Pogba a lot further up, but Ole is making his own decisions and we just have to see how they play out.
But for me Pogba should be played almost alongside a 10 (just behind and to the left).
But for me Pogba should be played almost alongside a 10 (just behind and to the left).
Many great comments here. The overall problems are these:
Our finishing is not yet clinical, either in open play or on pk’s.
We’re very thin on midfield talent.
We should have brought in a player at Bruno’s level to serve in the 10, but Ole may have thought he had everything he needed in Lingard. Or Woody may have cut off funds. Either way we are short on ability at 10, which limits our supply of good chances on goal.
Pogba can do a lot but he can’t do it all and without more able players in the right roles in either 4231 or 433 we’re going to be frustrated at the results. But turning this around has to begin with better finishing from Rashford and better chance creation by Lingard, Mata and Pereira. Whether they are capable of it I don’t know, but we do know that if we’re relying on players who can’t perform our problems go well beyond what Pogba’s role is.
Our finishing is not yet clinical, either in open play or on pk’s.
We’re very thin on midfield talent.
We should have brought in a player at Bruno’s level to serve in the 10, but Ole may have thought he had everything he needed in Lingard. Or Woody may have cut off funds. Either way we are short on ability at 10, which limits our supply of good chances on goal.
Pogba can do a lot but he can’t do it all and without more able players in the right roles in either 4231 or 433 we’re going to be frustrated at the results. But turning this around has to begin with better finishing from Rashford and better chance creation by Lingard, Mata and Pereira. Whether they are capable of it I don’t know, but we do know that if we’re relying on players who can’t perform our problems go well beyond what Pogba’s role is.
You either play Pogba left of a midfield three and watch Shaw visibly age behind him and just hope Pogba puts in more great performances than average ones, or you just don't play him - the biggest downside of the Shaw/Pogba combo which looks great on paper is they are by a country-mile the two worst players currently at the club re. tactical discipline/game understanding/positional awareness and the other outfield players who should be focusing 100% on their own jobs have to constantly have one eye on them and be ready to cover for them when one, or both of them go walkabouts which happens far to often.
It is. But what can he do with the current group of CMs?
Sheer lunacy especially when we have pure garbage like Mata and Lingard stinking up the number 10 spot. He's unstoppable running at mids and defenders. Won a penalty with a couple of runs the few times he switched up field.
We won't have a perfect midfield currently but we need to at least play him in the area he can hurt the teams most. Instead of playing passes to Lindelof and Maguire. We are crying out for his presence in attack right now.
We won't have a perfect midfield currently but we need to at least play him in the area he can hurt the teams most. Instead of playing passes to Lindelof and Maguire. We are crying out for his presence in attack right now.
Should have bought a CDM as replacement for Matic and another midfielder, instead of blowing £80m on Maguire. There is no defense that can be sorted without an inexistent midfield to protect it.
People saying it's "lunacy" having him deeper, are ignoring the massive issue that there is no one behind him who can pass or play like he does.
All that would regularly happen is that teams heavily mark him, stop him getting near it, he drops deep, and our runners up front look even more headless than usual.
All that would regularly happen is that teams heavily mark him, stop him getting near it, he drops deep, and our runners up front look even more headless than usual.