Ole playing Pogba as a DLP is sheer idiocy

[Eric7C]

Maybe, but it seems Fred isn't up to speed yet. How about this.

De Gea
AWB-Tuanzebe-Lindelof-Maguire-Young
Lingard-McTominay-Pogba-James
Rashford

5-4-1 with three CB's that are all comfortable on the ball.

Lingard doesn't deserve to start. Rashford is more a winger than a striker; put him on the right and play Greenwood until Martial comes back.

Edit: Oh, and ask Rashford to pass the ball more rather than run with it all the time. He needs to be more of a team player.

 

[Jordan_mufc]

For sure it's a big issue. I'm not a fan of the 4-2-3-1 myself but if it's going to work then we need the right players in the right positions.

I'm hoping the penny has dropped after Southampton. When Ole brought Matic on and pushed Pogba forward, we looked like a different animal. I hope Ole has seen this and doesn't persist with Pogba in a deep position, cos it will lead to his downfall unfortunately.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Distracted Lazy Prat

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Am I completely mistaken or wasn’t this how he was used in the World Cup? You know, the competition that gets fecking relentlessly brought up when anyone dares to suggest that Pogba might not be as good as he’s made out to be. Turns out that “sheer idiocy” can help win the biggest trophy of all. Who’d have thunk it?

 

[Eric7C]

For sure it's a big issue. I'm not a fan of the 4-2-3-1 myself but if it's going to work then we need the right players in the right positions.

I'm hoping the penny has dropped after Southampton. When Ole brought Matic on and pushed Pogba forward, we looked like a different animal. I hope Ole has seen this and doesn't persist with Pogba in a deep position, cos it will lead to his downfall unfortunately.

I agree overall, but didn't we look better because Southampton were down to 10 and were looking to take a point. With teams that try to attack United, Matic might well be too slow. I still don't understand why Fred is not being given a sustained run in the team.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

Lingard doesn't deserve to start. Rashford is more a winger than a striker; put him on the right and play Greenwood until Martial comes back.

Edit: Oh, and ask Rashford to pass the ball more rather than run with it all the time. He needs to be more of a team player.

Yeah well you get what I mean. The RW issue is one we'll have regardless of formation. I don't really care who we play there as all our options are equally poor.

 

[Bestietom]

He is wasted as a DLP. He needs to be further forward.

 

[stepic]

Am I completely mistaken or wasn’t this how he was used in the World Cup? You know, the competition that gets fecking relentlessly brought up when anyone dares to suggest that Pogba might not be as good as he’s made out to be. Turns out that “sheer idiocy” can help win the biggest trophy of all. Who’d have thunk it?

helps having someone else in midfield to cover for him and actual forwards who make proper runs ahead of him, like the french team does in Kante and Mbappe.

 

[Phil Osophy]

The idea could be about having our 4 players up front absorbing the marks and opening spaces for him to come from behind. And when we are sitting deeper, he could be the 'launcher' for the counter-attacks (Rashford goal vs Chelsea).

On the paper it could be interesting but the result couldn't be any worse. At defending he's many times out of position, and doesn't track his pair at times in front of defence. I rarely bash the guy but against Soton it happened more than it should. When he gets the ball he plays like a #10 in front of defence, keeps the ball, tries to dribble and creates avoidable problems, like Palace second goal, Chelsea in the first half, last weekend against Soton, and so on.

I really think he lacks the mastery to play deep, and probably he can do a job when motivated but gets exposed when he's half arsed. And as you said, many situations with Lingard on the ball as a number 10 could have been very different if it was Pogba instead. Ole changed Pogba to a more advanced position in the second half this weekend, so hopefully he's seeing the same and introduces some changes.

I think it would be better to play him as third midfielder more than a pure number 10, but I would take any of those before seeing the man in that midfield two.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

helps having someone else in midfield to cover for him and actual forwards who make proper runs ahead of him, like the french team does in Kante and Mbappe.

Ok, so it’s not Ole’s fault for playing him in that position. It’s the fault of other players instead.

Always someone else’s fault...

 

[Classical Mechanic]

helps having someone else in midfield to cover for him and actual forwards who make proper runs ahead of him, like the french team does in Kante and Mbappe.

They also play with a traditional number 9 so he can be hit long if in doubt.

That said, France didn't play good football really and Deschamps is often questioned as a tactical coach. Fact is that they have a totally awesome squad and that got them through.

 

[Dante]

Pogba can't press and is therefore a wrong fit at #10 in Ole's system.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Pogba can't press and its therefore a wrong fit at #10.

That's a fair point.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Chatting about this at work today.

I think it’s bexause it’s where Pogba wants to play, but it doesn’t work. We need a water carrier there and we need to stick Pogba as far up the pitch as he will go and tell him not to worry so much about defending because as much as he tries to be a CM or a DM (and I really believe he does try his best!) he’s a natural number 10 and he’d be so much more dangerous.

 

[In Rainbows]

Ok, so it’s not Ole’s fault for playing him in that position. It’s the fault of other players instead.

Always someone else’s fault...

Your agenda is tiresome. Do you think we have a passer as good as Pogba that can force him to a more advanced position? It's as simple as that. The problem always comes down to lack of quality. And this has nothing to do with "unlocking" Pogba which is why you always view this entire discussion as "excuses" or "somebody else's fault."

What the OP and many are saying is that we lack quality. We can't have a great midfield without quality. Take Pogba out of the equation and that fact stands. I don't see what's so particularly difficult about this issue.

 

[Phil Osophy]

Pogba can't press and is therefore a wrong fit at #10 in Ole's system.

Can't press? Why not?

 

[Giggsyking]

His best position is out of the club.

 

[Tel074]

We can’t have it all. At the moment, if Pogba plays as the 10 then it means Matic starting every game again and it seems like nobody wants that.

Until Fred is up to speed I imagine he’ll continue to play deeper.

Fred has been at United over a year and he hasn't been up to speed I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on that to happen

 

[Treble]

I can see why Ole plays him deeper: our main strength in attack is pace. If Pogba plays closer to the forwards we might struggle to deliver the ball to them, especially in free spaces. When we are attacked and win the ball back it easier to pass it to Pogba if he plays as a DLP, then he can find Rashford, Martial, James...in the spaces freed by the opposition and hit the latter on the counter.

I don't know whether it is the right decision though because the opposition knows what Pogba can do and there is alaways a man next to him so that he is hampered in delivering through balls or long balls in behind the defenders.

 

[Giggsyking]

Can't press? Why not?

He is slow, and does not seem to have the desire to chase the ball around. He is a lazy player.

 

[Smores]

Chatting about this at work today.

I think it’s bexause it’s where Pogba wants to play, but it doesn’t work. We need a water carrier there and we need to stick Pogba as far up the pitch as he will go and tell him not to worry so much about defending because as much as he tries to be a CM or a DM (and I really believe he does try his best!) he’s a natural number 10 and he’d be so much more dangerous.

Wait what? You think he plays there because he wants to defend?

 

[WolfInSharp'sClothing]

You did look better against Palace when Matic came on and Pogba was pushed further forward.

The solution for me is rather than 2 deeper midfielders and one more advanced, to just play McTominay or Matic holding centrally and any 2 of Pogba, Mata, Lingard, Fred or Pereira either side, with more license to go forward. It's more of a 4-3-3 than a 4-2-3-1, but it's how Liverpool and City do it and it's more effective nowadays than a 4-2-3-1.

With the players you've got, I think you'd be most effective playing:

De Gea

AWB-Lindelof-Maguire-Shaw

McTominay

Mata---------Pogba

James------------------Rashford

Martial​

 

[FootyGirl88]

Maybe, but it seems Fred isn't up to speed yet. How about this.

De Gea
AWB-Tuanzebe-Lindelof-Maguire-Young
Lingard-McTominay-Pogba-James
Rashford

5-4-1 with three CB's that are all comfortable on the ball.

I don't think we need to play 5 defenders, I think we should pack out the midfield I.e 451 or 4141

 

[In Rainbows]

I can see why Ole plays him deeper: our main strength in attack is pace. If Pogba plays closer to the forwards we might struggle to deliver the ball to them, especially in free spaces. When we are attacked and win the ball back it easier to pass it to Pogba if he plays as a DLP, then he can find Rashford, Martial, James...in the spaces freed by the opposition and hit the latter on the counter.

I don't know whether it is the right decision though because the opposition knows what Pogba can do and there is alaways a man next to him so that he is hampered in delivering through balls or long balls in behind the defenders.

Well said. That's the problem.

Play Pogba more advanced and our pivot midfielders aren't good enough to pass defensive lines and start a great attacking transition. They can get easily dispossessed because of lack of quality.

Play Pogba deeper, and we still have a bad #10 or a bad #8. And at the same time you've just made it harder to get our most creative midfielder to create because he now has to bypass more defenders than if he were advanced.

This was known for a long time and this club refused to buy several midfielders. The situation has just gotten worse with Herrera leaving.

 

[TRUERED89]

We don't have to pass from deep though. What passers to Liverpool have? They win the ball quickly and get it to the forwards as quickly as possible. I have no clue why we are obsessed with total football played out from the back.

Pep im assuming, with his 100 point tiki taka teams!

 

[GazTheLegend]

Wait what? You think he plays there because he wants to defend?

No - but I believe he does TRY to defend.

He wants to get on the ball as much as possible and he seems to enjoy playing deeper for some reason

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Deep lying piano-carrier

Did he help Sanchez move?

 

[FootyGirl88]

Its not even about Pogba imo - it's the #10 role that's the issue.

We need a player like how Jose describes a #10 should be:

For me a number 10 does a lot of things, with the ball and without the ball. So for me a number 10 is a very special player in my team.

“With a system of two midfield players and one number 10, I demand a lot from a number 10.

“I like a number 10 to score goals. I like a number 10 to get in the box. I like a number 10 to score goals like Oscar's against Maccabi Tel Aviv.

“A number 10 for me is an eight-and-a-half when the team loses the ball, and the number 10 is a nine-and-a-half when the team has the ball.

“Who is my perfect number 10? Wesley Sneijder and Deco. Because they could defend, get in the box and finish goals? Yes.”

 

[Smores]

No - but I believe he does TRY to defend.

He wants to get on the ball as much as possible and he seems to enjoy playing deeper for some reason

I couldn't disagree more. You only have to listen to his interviews when Ole took over and he started playing further forward.

 

[TRUERED89]

For sure it's a big issue. I'm not a fan of the 4-2-3-1 myself but if it's going to work then we need the right players in the right positions.

I'm hoping the penny has dropped after Southampton. When Ole brought Matic on and pushed Pogba forward, we looked like a different animal. I hope Ole has seen this and doesn't persist with Pogba in a deep position, cos it will lead to his downfall unfortunately.

Very true, get Fred/Matic in at CDM, McT next to him as box to box and let Pogba do his thing further up near the strikers. It surely cant be worse than what we've seen so far.

 

[youngrell]

Fred has been at United over a year and he hasn't been up to speed I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on that to happen

I meant with his fitness. I can only imagine that is the reason he's been completely absent this far.

 

[youngrell]

I would rather Matic have come on at the end of the Crystal Palace game than Mata. Then maybe we wouldn't have conceded that embarrassing goal at the end, which Mata in central midfield couldn't do anything about due to his tiny dwarf legs. Matic has slowed down a bit, but he isn't as completely useless as portrayed in this forum.

I tend to agree. Matic can be frustrating but he does a certain job that nobody else does and is nowhere near as bad as people are making out.

 

[Valuedrug]

Fred keeps getting mentioned as part of a solution to push Pogba further forward.

He had a brief holiday period getting married, but he came back for the majority of the preseason games, and so far hasn’t even made the bench for a single game. I don’t see him on the injury list. I realise this only September, but what hope do we have that he will all of a sudden fix our midfield?

So far he seems to me like another waste of money, who will perhaps have a few games in the Europa League before we sell him to Inter. Where he will of course quickly rediscover his old form as per tradition.

 

[LJJT]

It isn’t idiocy it’s common sense given we’ve loads of perceived attacking players and few genuine midfielders. Our big issue is we’ve far too many players that no one actually knows what their best position is and they are all like utility men who can do jobs in various roles but no one really seems to nail down a role/position. This is due to poor recruitment/investment over 6+ years. Not Oles fault

 

[SweetRightFoot]

This is the tactical decision that will define our season.

How to do it?

For a start, bin the 4-2-3-1. This isn't the 90's/00's anymore, literally no top teams play it and we don't even have the players for it. It's a relatively safe system but by God do I hate it. For it to work, at this level, you essentially need a world class CF (Drogba, Diego Costa, Benzema, prime Torres etc) who is experienced and can do pretty much everything, ie. hold up play, dribbling, speed, strength, can score all kinds of goals. If you combined Martial and Rashford into one player you'd still come up short as they're not strong enough or good enough in the air. You also need a top drawer number 10 who, similarly, has a wide skill set, fast, good in tight spaces, work rate, great pass, can score from distance and highly creative. This is perhaps a position we are lacking in even more. Lingard and Mata tick 3 or 4 of those between them, not top 6 material options for this position.

The solution? Play to our strengths and not our weaknesses. We're short in midfield, stacked in defence and have several positions with no quality options. We do however have a great group if young, pacey forwards with an eye for goal, a pretty solid back 5 (discounting the brain farts that happen when we end up get pressured by shit clubs because our tactics suck) and the enigma himself, Pogba.

Here's my 2 cents.

-----------------De Gea--------------------
--------???-Maguire-Lindelof-------
AWB-McTominay-Fred(?)-Shaw
------------------Pogba--------------------
-----------Rashford-Martial-----------

Gameplan: Keep possession in defence, sit deep, if there's no counter on, push up as a team and let Pogba and the forwards do their magic. Maguire can push up if the opposition parks the bus, last half hour as a defensive mid and last 5 as an out an out striker. He gets 5-10 goals a season like this. Pogba in the key role here of main creative outlet. If he gets crowded out, him being closer to the strikers means the strikers get more space! Martial and Rashford combine with Paul around the box to create opportunities while the rest of the team supports. If nothing is coming off, work the ball down the wings and get Pogba in the effing box. The guy is, what, 6ft 3? He can do real damage there as he did against City, literally the only time he's got forward like that. All our front 3 get 20~ goals a season and we set a record for clean sheets, however we do drop points at home to minnows parking the bus for no score draws.

Now the obvious criticisms;

3rd CB? Jones, Rojo or Bailly, who ever is fit or on form. OR Slot Dalot at RWB and drop AWB back there, He's big, quick and probably the best tackler in the squad, if he adapts well in training he could really do well there.

Fred? Gunna be honest this is the weak spot. Our refusal to buy a centre mid this summer may well be our undoing. Garner? Too young. Matic? Too old. Shocking these are our only options. Curveball but maybe play Jesse here? All he needs to do is put himself about and pass to Pogba, I don't think he's so bad he can't make 10 yard passes and he does have the workrate. Could be an option against top teams to nullify the KdB's and Eriksens of the world.

Whole team rests on Pogba? I reckon he can do it, simple as that. When I watch him, there's only one player he reminds me of and, for me, it's Ronaldinho. The guy is an artist, a creative type, doesn't play so much with fire and grit as with guile and cunning. If you give him the right platform, actually playing our most talented player in an attacking position, he will produce.

Sadly we'll never see this cos if Ole can't coach it properly, it'll fail, he'll look weak and be sacked by Christmas but believe me, this is the best formation for our squad and it's abilities.

Just, for the love of God, keep Lingard away from our attacks.

 

[stepic]

Ok, so it’s not Ole’s fault for playing him in that position. It’s the fault of other players instead.

Always someone else’s fault...

as a manager you have two options with someone like Pogba, you take the Jose route and you try and drill into him a different way of playing, a more conservative style perhaps, or you accept the player as he is, allow him to play with the freedom he wants, and you make sure the team is structured to allow this. Ole appears to be doing neither of these things: Pogba seemingly still has free license to do what he wants and he's able to do it deep with little protection. yes, blame the player for being tactically naive but at the end of the day he's playing his own game - it's up to the manager to allow him to play his natural game in the best possible manner/position. i do blame Pogba somewhat but given he's by far our best player and passer, it's stupid to try and curb his game because we lack bodies further back, therefore more of the blame for me is on the manager (for playing him too deep when he should know his player's characteristics) and the club for not reinforcing the midfield so Pogba's flaws aren't pronounced so much.

 

[DickDastardly]

I tend to agree. Matic can be frustrating but he does a certain job that nobody else does and is nowhere near as bad as people are making out.

This season, we haven't seen much of Matić.

But his last 10 games were atrocious.

His legs were gone, he couldn't defend if his life depended on it.
I don't know if he can turn it around and be the Nemanja we need, but i doubt it.
Hope he proves me wrong.

 

[settembrini]

The thinking behind it is:

1. Pogba, on paper, should be perfectly capable of playing well in a deep role. He's got all the physical and technical attributes to deal with opposition pressing and orchestrate our build-up play. He's played this position well for France and even for United in his first season.

2. United lack creativity. Pogba is well capable of creating from deeper positions and this system allows us to play a #10 which should add to our creativity in theory.

3. Playing a hard working #10, specifically Lingard, gives us more in terms of high pressing which Solskjaer wants.

What is going wrong with it at the moment?

1. Pogba's poor decision making which sees him dawdle on the ball and get tackled or play predictable and slow passes that are easily intercepted.

2. Our current #10s are Lingard and Mata and they aren't very creative or even particularly strong attackers at all.

Overall it's early days using this system and our performances have been good enough that Solskjaer will persist with it for a while yet. We really need Pogba to sharpen up though and someone to start playing well as the #10.

 

[FreakyJim]

It's like we desperately needed a midfielder this summer.

But also Pogba is very capable of playing there. It's just that at the moment he's moody and doesn't really want to be here, which destroys his game. He's careless and it's downright pathetic attitude from him, no matter what OGS says in press conferences. I very much doubt the rest of the squad is happy seeing him lose the ball so much in such areas and strolling about the pitch.
I know, If I were one of the players I'd be livid.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

I think it's perfect position for him. If he played 10 versus palace he wouldn't get the ball and would just end up cm with less in front of him anyway. The issue is that we need a more productive 10 to compete with lingard, lingards link up has been okay and most of our quality chances have come that way but he doesn't seem to have the desire to get into the box.

I think if we signed a 6 to partner mcsauce he could play an effective 10. But for now it is the right place for him to be.

And tbf we are generally controlling games, giving very few chances away and creating enough to win games (altho not a lot )