You're forgetting almost the entirety of 2019. There was a period after the PSG win where our record was 14 wins, 11 draws and 13 losses. Thats a 38 game period where we essentially picked up 53 points in all comps. Our fans have the worst memories. It didn't improve much either, as in the next 10 games, we won 4 and lost 5. That's almost an entire year:I think your dislike for Ole is clouding your judgment here. He never spent 4 seasons here, he had two full seasons, he came in the middle of 18-19 and was then fired very early in 21-22.
He joined in the middle of 2018-19 season, we were already out of EFL Cup by that time so he couldn't have possibly won that.
The next two seasons were his only two full ones and I just listed all the teams he had been eliminated by above.
It's not even bad luck on Ole's side, you are usually expected to draw good teams at some point in pretty much any competition. ETH was just extremely lucky not to, and he's now being glorified by his devoted fan base for delivering that amazing trophy. It's silly.
I was right the first time.Fixed.
My apologies, we Ten Hag did win us a relatively insignificant cup by dispatching of a few no marks.What did Ole win in his four or whatever years here?
Yes.
That's the new argument for keeping ETH?Why is everyone such a doom monger? Did we get better when we sacked Ole? No. We got much worse.
I think you're a fairly balanced poster but I reckon our recent shitness has gotten to you.Yes.
Nah, you weren't.I was right the first time.
I think it's some sort of subconscious pushback given that members of the Ole fanclub here are prominently twisting the knife happily. The problem with Ole was the perception of a clown show, where the manager had no control and it was becoming a meme. I don't think we're under that perception now; we're just objectively bad.I think your dislike for Ole is clouding your judgment here. He never spent 4 seasons here, he had two full seasons, he came in the middle of 18-19 and was then fired very early in 21-22.
He joined in the middle of 2018-19 season, we were already out of EFL Cup by that time so he couldn't have possibly won that.
The next two seasons were his only two full ones and I just listed all the teams he had been eliminated by above.
It's not even bad luck on Ole's side, you are usually expected to draw good teams at some point in pretty much any competition. ETH was just extremely lucky not to, and he's now being glorified by his devoted fan base for delivering that amazing trophy. It's silly.
Ole cemented the current issue that still plagues the club, that we have no interest in a meritocracy and are heavily influenced by external pressure. Much like a child might watch pundits like Rio saying we should sign a caretaker manager without any top flight experience after a smash and grab against PSG, the club then gets giddy and does exactly that, only to see an absolutely dreadful end to the season. What do we do? Internal review? Speak to other managers? No, we back the guy, then we do the same again and why? We play Mou's almost exact system with admittedly happier players and win nothing. Ole says we will outwork teams, we do not, we will add a press, the pressing stats were worse than under Mou who didn't even try to do that, he gives that interview about how he will be ruthless and some players won't make it and then never drops the worst performers. It was the lowest of the low points as a United fan for me because it was an old boys club at the club, an old boys club in the media and nothing, absolutely nothing, pioneering or forward thinking was happening. We were hard to beat, absolutely, and we could probaby play that way under most managers out there and as long as we spent £150m+ a year stay in the top 4.Ole has been a better manager for us then Ten Hag full stop. Only thing that is preventing people from seeing that is the fact he’s former player, not a Dutch faux philosopher and didn’t have high pedigree before joining. If he did have those things, there’s absolutely no way his time here would be looked at as inferior.
We won a trophy which Ole couldn’t. The same Ole who also had a third season which wasn’t ‘full’ because he wasn’t good enough and led to us crossing 4 years without a trophy. Something ETH corrected pretty quickly.My apologies, we Ten Hag did win us a relatively insignificant cup by dispatching of a few no marks.
And Ole had two full seasons here.
Don't assume to know where i think we stand in the game after a decade of dross. If we aspired to be more like the other giants of the game and we would get proper people to handle the football aspects of our club we would be doing much better. If we did what those clubs do Old Trafford would look great right now.Expectations of the reality of United’s status in the game also seem a bit skewed when I see posts like this.
We finished 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 6th, 5th, 4th, 7th since we won the league. We have not got to the business end of the CL in over a decade, we often aren't even in it. Bayern have to win their league, it's a piss take if they don't, Real or Barca have won the last 16 of 18 La Ligas. We have been nowhere near winning ours. Readjust your expectation, either you let ETH (or any other manager) build something with the handicaps that exists in the owners and transfer team, or just shout about how standards have fallen, sack managers after every bad run and prepare for nothing to change.
You do know what the narrative would have been if Ole won the same trophy in the same manner beating the same teams.My apologies, we Ten Hag did win us a relatively insignificant cup by dispatching of a few no marks.
And Ole had two full seasons here.
I can only base my response off what you wrote and you compared us to Bayern, Barca and Real.Don't assume to know where i think we stand in the game after a decade of dross. If we aspired to be more like the other giants of the game and we would get proper people to handle the football aspects of our club we would be doing much better. If we did what those clubs do Old Trafford would look great right now.
Maybe waiting until results are very bad is worse for the morale of the squad, waiting until there is nothing to play for. What will change next summer for Erik when we wait. Will he have successfully implemented his philosophy that's seems to be a failure so far. Will transfers be better? Will he play better against decent opposition? will he learn to get himself a draw when in a bad situation? It's also up to him to show what the team could do when his philosophy and plans are executed right. Other than pressing what do we do better under Erik.
It's not all his fault clowns like Murtough/fletcher should be gone too. But the minimum we can expect on the field is a defined style and improvements with our ability on the ball something which has been a problem for a long time. On the ball we are no different to when Ole was with us. We press better but are horrible on the ball. We are tired of this, no United fans like this. We all hope he does well.
I'm not saying he was good for us. He was decent in bursts, did well in cup competitions and mostly in big games, got us to consecutive top 4 finishes. The time for him to go would have been after Villarreal game, and he would have been remembered more fondly if that had happened.You're forgetting almost the entirety of 2019. There was a period after the PSG win where our record was 14 wins, 11 draws and 13 losses. Thats a 38 game period where we essentially picked up 53 points in all comps. Our fans have the worst memories. It didn't improve much either, as in the next 10 games, we won 4 and lost 5. That's almost an entire year:
Played 48, won 18, drawn 12, lost 18. That's abysmal.
Reasons for that are quite obvious.Ole didnt have a 75% backing thats for sure
He was crap. I'll be honest, I've no attachment to ETH. I knew very little about him before he joined us and, whilst I'd rather we not sack just yet, i wouldn't cry if we did. However, the revisionism/hypocrisy that finds it way onto this forum is ridiculous.I'm not saying he was good for us. He was decent in bursts, did well in cup competitions and mostly in big games, got us to consecutive top 4 finishes. The time for him to go would have been after Villarreal game, and he would have been remembered more fondly if that had happened.
I'd be over the moon with 53 points this season btw. I think we will be below 50.
Season isn't lost and this is actually a solid reason to sack him and bring another coach trying to salvage the season. He's not turning this around and even if the miracle happens and he manages to hit a winning run, what will the end result be? 5th or 4th at best with Ten Hag cultists acting like the biggest achievement ever.The only ones who are acting like the season is lost are the ones wanting him sacked.
Ten Hag was the best thing since sliced bread at Ajax because he made his own team to dominate that league.The reign of a talentless and weak manager such as Ole permitted the players to consolidate their importance on and off the pitch. And since then no manager has managed to wrest control from the players. The next truly great coach to get the managerial seat would have to be someone who destroys this shortsighted mentality from the players. What I do not know is whether new players are and will keep being blooded and inculcated into this player mentality. Good luck to whoever gets the gig after ETH.
I dont think ETH is a great manager, a good one maybe. At Ajax he had some great players. Great managers dont just sign players they know, they look for the best out there. I said at the start of the season and say it again. His bias for players from the Dutch league is why he will get sacked, and probably deserve it.Ten Hag was the best thing since sliced bread at Ajax because he made his own team to dominate that league.
But in England the pace of change required for a title run is insane, it catches every manager out and the hiccups along the road to the top are harshly criticised by the media fanbase.
The point is great managers need time to adapt and get their shit tight for this club.
Nope, you have a different view to me, which is fine.I think you're a fairly balanced poster but I reckon our recent shitness has gotten to you.
Sacking him at this moment. would be incredibly and utterly dumb.Season isn't lost and this is actually a solid reason to sack him and bring another coach trying to salvage the season. He's not turning this around and even if the miracle happens and he manages to hit a winning run, what will the end result be? 5th or 4th at best with Ten Hag cultists acting like the biggest achievement ever.
If Ole didn’t complete his third season because he wasn’t good enough then Ten Hag should be fired tomorrow, given we are barely out of September and lost what, 6 games already.We won a trophy which Ole couldn’t. The same Ole who also had a third season which wasn’t ‘full’ because he wasn’t good enough and led to us crossing 4 years without a trophy. Something ETH corrected pretty quickly.
You dont sack a manager after 10 games off the back of what should be considered over achievement in finishing 8pts clear of 4th and winning a cup.If Ole didn’t complete his third season because he wasn’t good enough then Ten Hag should be fired tomorrow, given we are barely out of September and lost what, 6 games already.
We’ve sacked managers who won trophies before (one just a few hours after winning one). That doesn’t tell the story.
Dominating a league miles below a quality of any top5 leagues in Europe shouldn’t get you such an ambitious job at United. He got it for that freak run in Champions League, which while impressive, still ended up with a bottle against Spurs.Ten Hag was the best thing since sliced bread at Ajax because he made his own team to dominate that league.
We won 3 times at Etihad in 2 years and the pitchforks were out because the fans didn't like the playing style in those games. But conceding 6 at Etihad and 7 at Anfield, that's for some reason totally acceptable for this fanbase. Never mind those grounds, even Emirates, WHL, SJP, London Stadium and Amex are automatic losses nowadays. But hey, at least we're playing "the right way" now.Nope, you have a different view to me, which is fine.
Ole was a better manager for our team, and it’s not the controversial or sensationalist take you are implying it to be given both managers have recorded similar league finishes.
Firstly, Ole had us scoring goals. Ten Hag has failed to do that. We went into games against big teams and gave them a proper game. We beat most of them. Ten Hag has failed to do this too.
Okay cool.Ten Hag was the best thing since sliced bread at Ajax because he made his own team to dominate that league.
But in England the pace of change required for a title run is insane, it catches every manager out and the hiccups along the road to the top are harshly criticised by the media fanbase.
The point is great managers need time to adapt and get their shit tight for this club.
Who were the CB’s that were sold? Genuinely don’t remember.Ole would rightfully be mocked if he'd sold two young CB;s in the summer and brought in Jonny Evans.
He'd also be mocked if he'd brought in an injury prone left back on loan as emergency cover while sending our only other option on loan.
Jose always imploded and van Gaal was disillusioned and needed therapy more than Sancho did.Jose and Lvg weren't weak yet the same still happened.
Axel and Bailly?Who were the CB’s that were sold? Genuinely don’t remember.
Turn it around to achieve what exactly ?Sacking him at this moment. would be incredibly and utterly dumb.
Of course he can turn it around. Be patient.
Challenge for silverware and maintain a CL role.Turn it around to achieve what exactly ?
Ten Hag hasn't showed a single sign he's good enough to challenge for the league or CL. If anything this season is proving his ceiling is a top 4 or a domestic cup only if he gets a lucky draw.Challenge for silverware and maintain a CL role.
For all the shit show were in, we aren't far off in terms of absolute points given the remainder of games left. And the CL group is far far from gone so get a grip.
I reckon our EFL Cup run will end in a few weeks if Newcastle approach that game seriously, our hope is they will just field their B team. We haven't had the same luck in draw this time.Challenge for silverware and maintain a CL role.
For all the shit show were in, we aren't far off in terms of absolute points given the remainder of games left. And the CL group is far far from gone so get a grip.
I thought Greenwood happened later, under Rangnick, but I may well be wrong.Greenwood was arrested on the 15/10/21.
The total capitulation began the following day vs Leicester.
Ronaldo's antics didn't help either.
Ole deserved more time. He had good coaches behind him in McKenna and Carrick. His main issue was not being ruthless enough.
You must have been zoned out last season mate.Ten Hag hasn't showed a single sign he's good enough to challenge for the league or CL. If anything this season is proving his ceiling is a top 4 or a domestic cup only if he gets a lucky draw.
Thinking he's gonna be United's savior and turn us into a title challengers is just some sort of delusion at this point.
I think your timeline is off. All that Greenwood stuff only came out in January 2022 when Ole was already long gone and Rangnick had been in charge for a couple of months.Greenwood was arrested on the 15/10/21.
The total capitulation began the following day vs Leicester.
Ronaldo's antics didn't help either.
Ole deserved more time. He had good coaches behind him in McKenna and Carrick. His main issue was not being ruthless enough.
