Not true.
He was appointed caretaker partly because of his ex player status. But he earned the permanent position thanks to his results.
Ole's 100 games in charge of United: 55W, 21D, 24L
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He was appointed caretaker partly because of his ex player status. But he earned the permanent position thanks to his results.
Still say Woody should have waited until the end of the season,thought it was going to be a proper thorough search for a manager but strikes me he got blinded by Paris
Merging the two.
And we just beat Leipzig 5-0...
To say that the direction Klopp was taking Liverpool was clear to see at a point where they were still doing pretty poorly in the league, is an opinion Liverpool fans did not particularly agree with back then. In hindsight, yes, but not back then. Fans look at the results, and that´s pretty much it. If Ole win the league next season, people will say the same about him.
It is concerning that Ole's best spell (results wise) of football was his first 20 games in charge.
We are all aware of the fabled 'new manager bounce' phenomena and the surrounding context/atmosphere at the club prior to his arrival but his first 20 games in charge statistically outstrip any of the following 20 game stretches. (75% wins, the next best being 65% between games 60-80).
It becomes difficult to keep faith when you consider that in spite of the turmoil Mou created from the 2018 summer window onwards, this is the period Ole got the best response/output from the players. The fact that he has since had several transfer windows and ample time to stamp his mark on the team but has failed to replicate this early form on a consistent basis should disconcert us all.
Let us remember that the team he initially took over lumbered him with caf pariahs such as Lukaku, Sanchez, Young, Smalling, Darmian and Lingard (a few of which he had no viable alternatives to and pretty much had to regularly select whether he liked it or not) which only further confuses the issue. Why was he able to get a better tune out of these misfits than any of those of whom he has deemed necessary since?
The following 20 games (Games 20-40) saw United winning only a quarter of their matches. Things have stabilised since with the win % bobbing between 55% and 65% through the remaining 60 games. This averages out to 56% across all comps up to this point.
If we are to take a positive it would be that when looked at in 40 game sets (0-40, 20-60, 40-80, 60-100), the win % is at its highest within the last 40 games (62.5% compared to 50%, 40% and 60% across the periods prior). However, there is not a lot in the stats to substantiate any claims of marked improvement across the 100 game period.
If we play devil’s advocate and remove his caretaker spell/ honeymoon then we end up with a win % of 51.9% across all competitions with a loss % of 25.9% (this reduces to 24% across his entire tenure). Effectively we are due a lose once every two weeks.
Our goal scoring appears to have been somewhat consistent as well, if we treat the appalling spell between games 20-40 as an anomaly.
Games 0-20 - 42 goals scored
games 20-40 - 16 goals scored
games 40-60 - 37 goals scored
games 60-80 - 44 goals scored
games 80-100 - 42 goals scored.
Goals against average out at 1 per game with a low of 11 conceded in 20 and a high of 26 in 20 (19, 26, 19, 11 and 25). There is not enough variation to say anything other than we have consistently conceded somewhere close to an average of a goal a game throughout most of his spell.
It is of course not all about stats and points etc., but they can help to allow us to compare periods free from the emotive connection we attached at the time they occurred.
Such stats combined with my own instinctive response to watching the games leads me to strongly question the suitability of Ole for the job. In failing to generate better outcomes than proved possible with a reportedly "beleaguered/oppressed" set of players that he had little time to assess or coach and many of which he has since deemed surplus to requirements, Ole has flattered to deceive and leaves me with little confidence of results commensurate with the potential of the team.
It makes it hard to offer genuine credit for the first 20 games, above and beyond helping to relieve the festering atmosphere Mou left in his wake. Even then, how much of that rebound is simply the inevitable result of shedding the toxic aura of Jose? Could any moderately qualified manager have ridden the feel good factor that emerged and achieved similar results? (Of course this is a musing reliant on hindsight).
Fernandes’s January introduction brought about a similar feel good factor that we rode the fumes out of, to great effect (if we create a bespoke 20 game set around this we see a 70% win rate). Now dissipated, we sit on the precipice of a run of form comparable to games 20-40. I sincerely hope that isn’t the case.
The 90’s were my formative years in a footballing sense and thus you can imagine the fondness I hold for Solskjaer and his team mates from that period, I take no pleasure in drawing the conclusion that he has failed to provide enough tangible evidence of building a team that can surpass the outcomes of the last 5 years, let alone fully scale the PL mountain.
We are all aware of the fabled 'new manager bounce' phenomena and the surrounding context/atmosphere at the club prior to his arrival but his first 20 games in charge statistically outstrip any of the following 20 game stretches. (75% wins, the next best being 65% between games 60-80).
It becomes difficult to keep faith when you consider that in spite of the turmoil Mou created from the 2018 summer window onwards, this is the period Ole got the best response/output from the players. The fact that he has since had several transfer windows and ample time to stamp his mark on the team but has failed to replicate this early form on a consistent basis should disconcert us all.
Let us remember that the team he initially took over lumbered him with caf pariahs such as Lukaku, Sanchez, Young, Smalling, Darmian and Lingard (a few of which he had no viable alternatives to and pretty much had to regularly select whether he liked it or not) which only further confuses the issue. Why was he able to get a better tune out of these misfits than any of those of whom he has deemed necessary since?
The following 20 games (Games 20-40) saw United winning only a quarter of their matches. Things have stabilised since with the win % bobbing between 55% and 65% through the remaining 60 games. This averages out to 56% across all comps up to this point.
If we are to take a positive it would be that when looked at in 40 game sets (0-40, 20-60, 40-80, 60-100), the win % is at its highest within the last 40 games (62.5% compared to 50%, 40% and 60% across the periods prior). However, there is not a lot in the stats to substantiate any claims of marked improvement across the 100 game period.
If we play devil’s advocate and remove his caretaker spell/ honeymoon then we end up with a win % of 51.9% across all competitions with a loss % of 25.9% (this reduces to 24% across his entire tenure). Effectively we are due a lose once every two weeks.
Our goal scoring appears to have been somewhat consistent as well, if we treat the appalling spell between games 20-40 as an anomaly.
Games 0-20 - 42 goals scored
games 20-40 - 16 goals scored
games 40-60 - 37 goals scored
games 60-80 - 44 goals scored
games 80-100 - 42 goals scored.
Goals against average out at 1 per game with a low of 11 conceded in 20 and a high of 26 in 20 (19, 26, 19, 11 and 25). There is not enough variation to say anything other than we have consistently conceded somewhere close to an average of a goal a game throughout most of his spell.
It is of course not all about stats and points etc., but they can help to allow us to compare periods free from the emotive connection we attached at the time they occurred.
Such stats combined with my own instinctive response to watching the games leads me to strongly question the suitability of Ole for the job. In failing to generate better outcomes than proved possible with a reportedly "beleaguered/oppressed" set of players that he had little time to assess or coach and many of which he has since deemed surplus to requirements, Ole has flattered to deceive and leaves me with little confidence of results commensurate with the potential of the team.
It makes it hard to offer genuine credit for the first 20 games, above and beyond helping to relieve the festering atmosphere Mou left in his wake. Even then, how much of that rebound is simply the inevitable result of shedding the toxic aura of Jose? Could any moderately qualified manager have ridden the feel good factor that emerged and achieved similar results? (Of course this is a musing reliant on hindsight).
Fernandes’s January introduction brought about a similar feel good factor that we rode the fumes out of, to great effect (if we create a bespoke 20 game set around this we see a 70% win rate). Now dissipated, we sit on the precipice of a run of form comparable to games 20-40. I sincerely hope that isn’t the case.
The 90’s were my formative years in a footballing sense and thus you can imagine the fondness I hold for Solskjaer and his team mates from that period, I take no pleasure in drawing the conclusion that he has failed to provide enough tangible evidence of building a team that can surpass the outcomes of the last 5 years, let alone fully scale the PL mountain.
If you're hired as a caretaker manager and win 14 of your first 17 games, there's a very good chance you're going to get the job no matter what your previous connections to the club might be.
80% would be nice
He needs to make some ruthless decisions.
That may well be true but if you look back at the day Ole got appointed as interim,there was a suggestion Utd were going to take their time to find the right candidate yet that never happened
Exactly.
Van Gaal served up the worst football i've seen in 40 years at Old Trafford.
He also made monumental mistakes in the transfer market that both Jose and Ole have been clearing up.
In Pogba he inherited a central midfielder who can attack but can't defend. In Fred he inherited a central midfielder who can defend but can't attack. I thought Van De Beek would be the solution. But so far he's looking like another square peg for a round hole.
I'm certain we will get back on track with Ole finally realizing he needs to dump Pogba to the bench and we will get back to basics. But it just means we will resort to what worked last season with Fred and McT in midfield with Bruno ahead of them. The problem with that is then we have spent close to 100 million on new players over the summer without instantly improving on last season. Compare that to our rivals like Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea who has all vastly improved. It's a worry. So I hope Ole hasn't completely botched the transfer window. I'm hoping VDB can come good but if not then Ole needs the bullet for a poor transfer window.
I'm certain we will get back on track with Ole finally realizing he needs to dump Pogba to the bench and we will get back to basics. But it just means we will resort to what worked last season with Fred and McT in midfield with Bruno ahead of them. The problem with that is then we have spent close to 100 million on new players over the summer without instantly improving on last season. Compare that to our rivals like Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea who has all vastly improved. It's a worry. So I hope Ole hasn't completely botched the transfer window. I'm hoping VDB can come good but if not then Ole needs the bullet for a poor transfer window.
Van Gaal was the biggest managerial disaster in the history of this club. Ole has been the best manager since Fergie by a long way even if he doesn't last much longer.
Mediocrity is accepted at Manchester United now.
I didn't express an opinion, just the facts
Much like your views on both mangers are both your opinion.
He ultimately got the job because of the PSG result and then it went tits up. It was baffling how quickly we fell apart after what was supposed to be a big confidence boost. Losing at home to Cardiff was also very grim on the final day. We didn't even score a goal.
Yeah feels like the players slackened off once they knew that Ole was going to be staying past the end of that 18/19 season which is not on at all
I really do not think that win rates and any other rate is even that important It is when i start to compare Ole to other managers that have recently joined clubs in the last 5 years is where the cracks appear - (Excuse my spelling on some of these names) Rogers, Hassenhout, Klopp, Pep, Lampard, Bielsa, Ancelotti and Mourinho. Ole has most likely spent the most or is up there compared to all these guys yet he has no style of play, tactics, formation, first 11. On paper our first 11 or even 14/15 should be doing a lot better. We have had the excuse of match fitness, the excuse of ups and downs and every other one. When will Ole realise that is he genuinely out of his depth at this level. He is a legend, and always will be for me, but slowly I am starting to despise him, and I have for a while. If you compare directly with the other Mnagers and the impact they had over 24 months, only Lampard will probably fair worse when you consider level of resource and club targets. Last season out of 50 plus games, i think we played well in roughly 20, outstanding in a handful. We were very lucky to finish 3rd and relied on others having a bad season, poor form for others after restart and Bruno. Ole needs to pack his bags and go, he has done well to shift the deadwood, but after 24 months, i expect far better. LVG had a trophy and still got sacked, Jose had 2 or 3 and still got sacked, what makes Ole any different? He is cheap on wages in comparison to others, he won't question the board because i think he is scared of the sack and lets Pogba and Maguire get away with everything. The man needs to leave now.
Yeah there is no doubt he is scared of the sack and like you say hasn't got the authority to deal with a big personality like Pogba
Should laminate this and send to Ed. Great analysis.
This is a lie. I remember watching a friendly against Real Madrid 2 or 3 seasons back where Liverpool played amazing football and toyed with them in stretches. I can't even remember the scoreline but I remember coming away worried with what they were turning into. Yes! it was only a preseason fixture but it was that glaring. Remembered wondering how no one had picked up on how good they were becoming. People here were still ignorantly and foolishly writing him off as Jurgen Flopp, serial runner-up. It's no wonder they are now surprised Liverpool are dominating
Also saying Liverpool fans didn't agree they had progressed at the time is just making stuff up. If you watched them you know there's absolutely no way their fans weren't positive about their progress. It really cannot be overstated how good Klopp had them playing. I doubt you took a poll or even know enough Liverpool supporters to make such a sweeping statement. The only real doubt surrounding Klopp at the time was how he kept neglecting defensive improvements and if he took that end of the pitch serious enough
Sorry for the rant but it peeves how people here continue to compare our trajectory to Liverpool's without a clue what Liverpool's trajectory was actually like enroute what they are today. They didn't just come good after 3 years
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Not if football club has a already plan and they know what they doing it by sticking to it, they wouldnt lose anything by sticking to their reported plan. Not like RM would approach to Ole or anything like that at the end of season.
Apart from winning 3 trophies, statistically Mourinho was United's best manager since Fergie. Why he was sacked remains a puzzle. Ole is clearly way out of his depth. I think United are better off giving Roy Keane a chance, this squad really needs a hairdryer.
The stats matter less, shouldn't be the 1st priority.
It's the football, stagnancy (lack of overall improvements especially our coaches) and overall poor decisions makings by the manager that irk me.
Seriously, do you enjoy watching United's football nowadays?
Ever since the restart last season, it's declining and now it's quite..boring and rubbish consistently. Sure you'll get the good fun game once in a while, usually vs shit teams in cup games, so it's like 1 or 2 times out of 10. It's depressing to admit I felt sleepy watching United games nowadays and can't focus like how I normally can. United football is suppose to entertain combined with winning, and I don't think we're getting that.
Shit football will lead to shit stats. The more it remains, the worser it gets. Ole's stats is luckily helped by more by the "no more Mourinho yeay, freedom!" effects, Bruno's short term purple patch, and the defensive system 4231 Ole decided on the start of last season, the one that gave us that high defensive stats, but this sacrifice the football entertainment factor (seriously though, do you enjoy watching United's football at that time? I don't, just the individual performances of many players helped get me by).
It's the football, stagnancy (lack of overall improvements especially our coaches) and overall poor decisions makings by the manager that irk me.
Seriously, do you enjoy watching United's football nowadays?
Ever since the restart last season, it's declining and now it's quite..boring and rubbish consistently. Sure you'll get the good fun game once in a while, usually vs shit teams in cup games, so it's like 1 or 2 times out of 10. It's depressing to admit I felt sleepy watching United games nowadays and can't focus like how I normally can. United football is suppose to entertain combined with winning, and I don't think we're getting that.
Shit football will lead to shit stats. The more it remains, the worser it gets. Ole's stats is luckily helped by more by the "no more Mourinho yeay, freedom!" effects, Bruno's short term purple patch, and the defensive system 4231 Ole decided on the start of last season, the one that gave us that high defensive stats, but this sacrifice the football entertainment factor (seriously though, do you enjoy watching United's football at that time? I don't, just the individual performances of many players helped get me by).
I enjoy watching us personally, the most since Sir Alex. Frustrating at times, but I was bored to tears with LvG and hated Joses defensive, cagey shite. When it was bad with Jose, it was bad.
That's a funny way to write "Moyes"
Thats fecked.
Should never have sacked Jose. Backing him could've had us back on top by now.
Oles league performances are not good enough. Hes gotta go. Stats don't lie. He has a better overall squad than any manager since Fergie and isn't really performing better in any criteria.
Oles league performances are not good enough. Hes gotta go. Stats don't lie. He has a better overall squad than any manager since Fergie and isn't really performing better in any criteria.
You could/should probably combine end of 18/19 and beginning of 19/20. Which shows that the good spells last for about 12 games but the bad spells can go on for almost three times as long.
Yeah, agreed. The 12 game streaks of good results have been great to watch. The longer streaks of poor results, not so much. Which is still preferable to the relentless negativity and boring football under the previous two managers, even allowing for the better results.
Still nowhere near good enough overall, mind you. Not for a club with our transfer budget/wages bill.
Because Van Gaal football was unbearable. If it weren't so bad we could maybe hang in there but my god I hadn't been as apathetic to watching United games other than the Jose meltdown.
I don't want anyone of them back. Jose is and was toxic wherever he goes.
Yes he won us trophies but I still don't want him back. He probably would win trophies with Spurs too.
Yes he won us trophies but I still don't want him back. He probably would win trophies with Spurs too.
Agreed, it was time for him to go.
The only thing regrettable is that we didn't sell Pogba like we should have when it became obvious there was a problem.
If I could do it all again I would rehire Jose just to sack him twice. We did the right thing, no regrets. His football was almost as soul crushing as LVG. Go a goal up and spend the last 30 minutes playing deep on the counter. It's not okay that Ole does it and it was never okay when Jose did
edit actually just realised that through these 7 wilderness years we haven't even hired a single manager with an attacking philosophy. They were all either counter attacking, defensive or possession based
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Perfectly sums up my feelings to a dot. I don't dread watching us play anymore. Our problem these days is consistency.
for me he's got to go, he has been far to loyal to so many of these boys who let him down constantly, even worse there is the league table of all teams since he took over and think we were 7th or something behind both Leicester and Wolves, considering the money he has spent that's just simply not good enough, its a pity but a change needs to be made and personally still feel a lot of the squad needs moved on.
I agree with you. I have said that it shows that Pogba is not a team player. I don't think we ever had a top player that was less of a team player than Pogba. One mistake I can accept. But it's getting to be regular.
The sooner he goes the better we will play. I don't know how good is DVB in playing box to box. If he is good in that with Fred and him in midfield and Bruno further forward we should be better than now.
But the system and tactics need to improve much more of course. A better coach will do better.
The irony with the post you just quoted is that the reason why our squad looks better under Ole is because he's been trying to fix the issues caused by Jose, LVG and Moyes and it's still not finished because of our ability of getting rid of the shite deadwood.
We're close to two years into Ole and he's still stuck with Jones, Rojo, Lingard and co.
Only Lingard has had a sniff this season. Who else falls within this "co"?
Even last season Ole had a large enough squad to enable him to not have to rely on these players on all but desperate occasions. (Ole actually seemed to really like Lingard and continued to give him chances when he didn't have to, previous managers can not be held accountable for this).
This argument carried some weight 18 months ago when we still had Lukaku, Darmian, Young and Sanchez bloating the squad and wage bill.
The reason it looks dubious now is due to the fact that Ole's first 20 games in charge have thus far proven to be his most successful period of prolonged form (75% win ratio).
In spite of shifting much of the "shite deadwood" the team has not reproduced these results since his honeymoon period.
It seems strange that a manager is able to get better results out of a group of players he didn't chose, many of whom he later deemed surplus to requirement, than the set of players he has had a reasonable amount of time (in footballing terms) to assemble, mould and organise.
I can understand an initial dip when gutting a squad (which we saw in his second 20 games with a 25% win ratio) but surely the benefits of having shifted these "shite" players, or condemning them as deep squad options, and replacing them with his own choices should have seen our form improve to a level equal or above that of the first 20 games.
It hasn't and the streaks of positive form have continued to be interspersed amongst equally abject streaks and the increasingly familiar Jekyll & Hyde persona of the team.
Ole got a better tune out of Mourinho's squad than he has been able to get from his own and I would be genuinely intrigued to hear theories as to why people think that is.