What value does it bring to the team that "fans" do "performance evalutions" and look for "negative indicators"? Do you also go to concerts with your favorite band or artist to do "performance evaluations" and look for "negative indicators"?So lets just ignore some indicators for performance evaluation and just enjoy the indicators with the happy faces? Seems a bit shortsighted to me.
Any fans talking about 'progress' are pretty much guaranteed to be chatting shit about reasons for not winning stuff.
You can jump from being a shite side to a good one and back down again. Can happen quickly or slowly depending on a whole heap of factors.
So I don't know about progress but I do think the current United are in the best shape since SAF left. The squad is mostly on the young side and can improve, and we have better young players than in some time, especially in the U-18 age bracket. What we really could do with is owners that aren't bleeding the club, then we could really go for it.
That is not the only measure though is it?Courtesy of Transfermarkt, we’ve ranked the 20 current Premier League clubs by their net spend over the past five years.
1. Man City – £601.98m
2. Man Utd – £484.88m
3. Arsenal – £267.88m
4. Everton – £225.42m
5. Brighton – £214.86m
6. Wolves – £205.22m
7. West Ham – £187.49m
8. Bournemouth – £176.95m
9. Aston Villa – £166.65m
10. Watford – £125.69m
11. Leicester City – £124.83m
12. Newcastle – £122.91m
13. Chelsea – £115.57m
14. Liverpool – £107.58m
15. Tottenham – £106.62m
16. Crystal Palace – £75.69m
17. Burnley – £59.4m
18. Sheffield United – £56.71m
19. Southampton – £22.32m
20. Norwich City – £25.42m profit
Everyone know United have been idiot on the transfermarket, specially before Ole arrived.Courtesy of Transfermarkt, we’ve ranked the 20 current Premier League clubs by their net spend over the past five years.
1. Man City – £601.98m
2. Man Utd – £484.88m
3. Arsenal – £267.88m
4. Everton – £225.42m
5. Brighton – £214.86m
6. Wolves – £205.22m
7. West Ham – £187.49m
8. Bournemouth – £176.95m
9. Aston Villa – £166.65m
10. Watford – £125.69m
11. Leicester City – £124.83m
12. Newcastle – £122.91m
13. Chelsea – £115.57m
14. Liverpool – £107.58m
15. Tottenham – £106.62m
16. Crystal Palace – £75.69m
17. Burnley – £59.4m
18. Sheffield United – £56.71m
19. Southampton – £22.32m
20. Norwich City – £25.42m profit
I seem to recall Liverpool where doing absolutely fine without VVD for a while, so I don’t think you are right in saying that. It was more a combination of them losing their other 2 centre backs in the next few weeks, and then having to move midfielders back so then weakening their midfield significantly, then losing other players like Jota, like Henderson and of course Thiago too for a long segments of season. It is no surprise actually that Liverpool had this crash, you look at previous 3 seasons to keep up with Manchester City and even overtake them and win the league and champions league took super human effort really, it was bound to come crashing down. A proper break for some of the key players in their squad, i.e. those not going to Euros, and pre-season, they will be back strong I think.To be fully satisfied and say we've progressed would be pushing it in my view.
We have issues with our squad which has been highlighted over the last couple of weeks when we have been without our captain.
The team has fell apart without him. Shaw, for example has gone from world class to looking very mediocre and that's being kind to him.
Pogba is looking bang average. Those extra qualities we've seen just aren't there.
Then I reckon there's still a problem with the mentality of some of the players!
The recent Liverpool game showed that. We were so weak in that game and literally gave them the win. That shouldn't be happening!
We must be far more clinical and kill off games more often than we have done. We dominate most other teams for long periods but we cannot seem to cash in on it. Another weakness!
We lack backbone in the team and in the manager to some extent!
Yes we've managed 2nd place but truth is city have run away with the title. The wheels fell off Liverpool when they lost VVD and they've been very poor. Chelsea needed a top manager to come in and since then they've performed but they've been pretty dire for most part of the season.
So we shouldn't be kidding ourselves. These last couple of weeks have been terrible imo and there are questions to be asked.
If I'm honest and we want to progress further we need to look at our coaching staff, including Ole.
This is a thread, where the OP asked for opinions about the extent of progress. I've shared my opinion just like anybody else and the reply you quoted was specifically towards somebody who stated that the mild increase of points gained doesn't matter because the only thing that counts is league position.What value does it bring to the team that "fans" do "performance evalutions" and look for "negative indicators"? Do you also go to concerts with your favorite band or artist to do "performance evaluations" and look for "negative indicators"?
Another valuable contribution. Wasn't aware that Ole just started his job in winter. I am sure, you will be here next year having the same explanation for why we aren't top. Apart from that: good to know, you see progress and see us continuing the upwards trend. I'd love to see it to the same extent.Ole is obviously not stupid, and he knows what need s to be worked on, which he has shown so far. Building a title winning team is not done in a day. See SAF, Klopp, Guardiola and so on. United is slowly getting there.
I am sure you just forgot, that they not only lost VVD but also most of the rest of their CBs. I don't have any compassion with them, feck them, it might have been their managers fault as well to an extent seeing that their young CBs are doing just fine these days, re-shuffling their whole team was too much. Nevertheless - the original point was, they were severely weakend by injuries. While we were relatively lucky with major injuries this year. Sometimes your lucky, sometimes you aren't. But I don't see the benefit of downplaying the effects of an injury crisis. As Manchester United, we should know better about this.Their most important player who was also a part of their team who shipped 3 against Leeds and 7 against Villa, that guy? Of course, it's all hypothetical from your end, but they had some shocking defensive performances after lockdown with him in the side as well...
Controversial thought: the question of the OP was about the extent of progress we have made. I understand you clearly recognize progress and the extent of it is... big/really big/magnifiecent/significant? Correct me here, about the extent. I interpreted your texts that you consider the progress (at least) as significant.With that being said, we need more because certain players are starters when they really should be squad players and bringing those upgrades in will see a further progression of the team. I'd say we're 4 top quality additions away from being a complete team, but just getting in two of those players would see us come on leaps and bounds.
Many people will probably skim right past this post but for me it pretty much encapsulates everything that I feel about the team.Favourite season as a United fan since Fergie. That's all that matters to me.
I have to agree with the post you quoted, despite feeling repeatedly convinced that we’ll never win the league under Ole. It’s been a rip-roaring season full of stirring comebacks. And that’s been excellent fun. Way more fun than any season under Moyes/LvG/Mou.Many people will probably skim right past this post but for me it pretty much encapsulates everything that I feel about the team.
This forum has shown in the last few days that it is still full of posters that will change their feelings one way or the other based on the latest result or two, and that is always going to be an unhealthy way to think about football, but considering that we've had no stadium support all season and the classic matches have been few and far between compared to most years, this United team have provided a good number of standout moments and performances that will stay with me. I love this group of players and look forward to our matches way more than I have for years. That'll do for me
I hear you. I think there's a high likelihood that we'd struggle to get near City no matter who is in charge. They are well ahead of us in development and still progressing.I have to agree with the post you quoted, despite feeling repeatedly convinced that we’ll never win the league under Ole. It’s been a rip-roaring season full of stirring comebacks. And that’s been excellent fun. Way more fun than any season under Moyes/LvG/Mou.
While you're obviously entitled to your opinion, I still wonder what kind of value you think you bring to the table by focusing on negatives while there are obvious positives? You want the team to win stuff, don't you? While you might not subscribe to the idea that supporting a team is, you know, being supportive, you seem intelligent enough to realize that the only thing we as supporters can do is affect the mood around the club. Negativity breeds negativity, and a negative enviroment is never ever a fertile breeding ground for success. What do you aim to achieve with your posts?This is a thread, where the OP asked for opinions about the extent of progress. I've shared my opinion just like anybody else and the reply you quoted was specifically towards somebody who stated that the mild increase of points gained doesn't matter because the only thing that counts is league position.
So good job getting triggered by a few specific words just because you consider everybody bitchy when they don't share your opinion. Its bewildering that some people seemingly are so positive about the clubs progress that they simply cannot stand other people not feeling the same way... If you are so secure about the progress why are you entering such a thread? Weird.
One has to be blind or have no memory to not see progress from where United were when Ole took charge. Will it continue? No one knows, but so far he has tackled obstacles well, the team is playing better and the reslts are better. Thing is, if the only thing you are looking for are "negative indicators", what you find tends to be the bad stuff. No football team is ever perfect.Another valuable contribution. Wasn't aware that Ole just started his job in winter. I am sure, you will be here next year having the same explanation for why we aren't top. Apart from that: good to know, you see progress and see us continuing the upwards trend. I'd love to see it to the same extent.
What do you want to achieve with your posts? This is a thread on a discussion forum where the extent of progress wants to be discussed. A somewhat subjective thing. You seem pretty self assured, that the progress is there. So what is your point to come in here? Are you looking for arguments? I don't get it. The players and the manager don't give a flying f*** what is written in here.While you're obviously entitled to your opinion, I still wonder what kind of value you think you bring to the table by focusing on negatives while there are obvious positives? You want the team to win stuff, don't you? While you might not subscribe to the idea that supporting a team is, you know, being supportive, you seem intelligent enough to realize that the only thing we as supporters can do is affect the mood around the club. Negativity breeds negativity, and a negative enviroment is never ever a fertile breeding ground for success. What do you aim to achieve with your posts?
I get a slight feeling that you aren't really arguing with me but with some imaginary person you consider as unworthy fan. Because I simply cannot see, where in my posts you come to the conclusion that a) I "not see progress" and b) I am "only looking for negative indicators" .One has to be blind or have no memory to not see progress from where United were when Ole took charge. Will it continue? No one knows, but so far he has tackled obstacles well, the team is playing better and the reslts are better. Thing is, if the only thing you are looking for are "negative indicators", what you find tends to be the bad stuff. No football team is ever perfect.
Your issue isn't me being overly negative. Your issue seems to be not able to accept either that some aspects of the season weren't soo great and entertaining or you have issues with other people stating things you don't agree with. Whatever it is, get over yourself. If you are confident, we will continue progress, well done, good luck for you sir. I am not convinced and this thread didn't really deliver more arguments to convince me otherwise because half of it is complaining that some fans aren't as good fans as other fans. If that makes me blind for you, then so be it.I agree with the OP, I think there surely is progress, we were able to grind results even when we were playing crap and we also managed to play some nice stuff but at the same time, we had big issues in critical moments, left CL group and title race in a disappointing manner, lost to direct rivals. This is not complaining, its just summarizing the season as a whole.
So yes, progress has been made. But I am a little worried that next season reality might hit us harder than some people expect. Other teams noticed our upwards trend, they will be prepared just like the bigger teams have been prepared this year. But still, I certainly wouldn't think a second about changing the managing team right now as there is no obvious candidate who really fills me with confidence. Ole might not be a Tuchel figure who is deep into the nitty-gritty pro-active puppet mastering but by setting the right environment, Ole can provide the squad with the opportunity to evolve.
The problem with these lists is it doesn’t give context. We are trying to catch City and spent significantly less while they were adding to I what they already had.Courtesy of Transfermarkt, we’ve ranked the 20 current Premier League clubs by their net spend over the past five years.
1. Man City – £601.98m
2. Man Utd – £484.88m
3. Arsenal – £267.88m
4. Everton – £225.42m
5. Brighton – £214.86m
6. Wolves – £205.22m
7. West Ham – £187.49m
8. Bournemouth – £176.95m
9. Aston Villa – £166.65m
10. Watford – £125.69m
11. Leicester City – £124.83m
12. Newcastle – £122.91m
13. Chelsea – £115.57m
14. Liverpool – £107.58m
15. Tottenham – £106.62m
16. Crystal Palace – £75.69m
17. Burnley – £59.4m
18. Sheffield United – £56.71m
19. Southampton – £22.32m
20. Norwich City – £25.42m profit
You are certainly right in which they also lost a final in European competition... And the opponents name had "real" in its name.The problem with these lists is it doesn’t give context. We are trying to catch City and spent significantly less while they were adding to I what they already had.
We are finally in a position where we are adding to a good team which needs a bit more quality and depth. Kind of where Liverpool were before Alisson and Van Dijk were signed the same summer.
I completely agree on the point that our league position is a false premise of improvement. Next season I can't see us higher than 4th behind Chelsea, Liverpool and City.The issue is what do you have when you have no trophies under Solskjaer?
What has our improvement actually entailed up to this point under Solskjaer? 8 points in the league, which is 2 wins and 2 draws more than we got in the season he took over. That isn't actually a lot when you consider the over £200m worth of net investment for the side (the highest of any Premier League club during this period) and the two and a half years up to this point.
We have scored 73 goals in the league and conceded 44 goals. Last season, we scored 66 and conceded 36. In 2018/19, we scored 65 and conceded 54 goals.
When you consider we scored 9 goals in one game, our goal scoring isn't actually very impressive. Despite that 9 goal win, we still only managed to score 6 more than last season and 7 more than the season he joined. Overall, this indicates that our goal scoring per game has not improved despite the addition of Fernandes and Cavani.
20/21 - goal scored per game (with 9 nil victory - over the 38 games) - 1.92
20/21 - goal scored per game (without 9 nil victory [anomaly win] - 37 games) - 1.68
19/20 - goal scored per game (over the 38 games) - 1.73
18/19 - goal scored per game (over the 38 games) -1.71
The anomaly of a victory has given the appearance that there has been improvement, but outside of that game, we are actually scoring at a lower rate than the previous two seasons.
Goals conceded are up on last season, but there was an anomaly with the 6-1 defeat to Tottenham.
20/21 - goal conceded per game (with Tottenham defeat - over the 38 games) - 1.15
20/21 - goal conceded per game (without Tottenham defeat - over the 37 games) - 1
19/20 - goal conceded per game (over the 38 games) - 0.95
18/19 - goal conceded per game (over the 38 games) -1.42
We have seen improvements defensively over his first season, but it has actually dropped off from last season (even when you remove the anomalous result).
Overall, I feel that there is a bit of a false premise of improvement. I think a lot of the basis of improvement has actually been founded on finishing second, but that really has more to do with the 30 point drop off of Liverpool than clawing that gap through our own improvement. In truth, I think Solskjaer has been a bit fortunate that Liverpool did fall so far as there would be no second place to plaster over the lack of substantial improvement.
No trophies again just becomes more indicative that he may not be the right manager for the job.
The increased points tally is also in a season when points totalled were lower. So maybe a bigger improvement than it seems on first viewing. May well have been over 80 points in a non-pandemic season.The issue is what do you have when you have no trophies under Solskjaer?
What has our improvement actually entailed up to this point under Solskjaer? 8 points in the league, which is 2 wins and 2 draws more than we got in the season he took over. That isn't actually a lot when you consider the over £200m worth of net investment for the side (the highest of any Premier League club during this period) and the two and a half years up to this point.
We have scored 73 goals in the league and conceded 44 goals. Last season, we scored 66 and conceded 36. In 2018/19, we scored 65 and conceded 54 goals.
When you consider we scored 9 goals in one game, our goal scoring isn't actually very impressive. Despite that 9 goal win, we still only managed to score 6 more than last season and 7 more than the season he joined. Overall, this indicates that our goal scoring per game has not improved despite the addition of Fernandes and Cavani.
20/21 - goal scored per game (with 9 nil victory - over the 38 games) - 1.92
20/21 - goal scored per game (without 9 nil victory [anomaly win] - 37 games) - 1.68
19/20 - goal scored per game (over the 38 games) - 1.73
18/19 - goal scored per game (over the 38 games) -1.71
The anomaly of a victory has given the appearance that there has been improvement, but outside of that game, we are actually scoring at a lower rate than the previous two seasons.
Goals conceded are up on last season, but there was an anomaly with the 6-1 defeat to Tottenham.
20/21 - goal conceded per game (with Tottenham defeat - over the 38 games) - 1.15
20/21 - goal conceded per game (without Tottenham defeat - over the 37 games) - 1
19/20 - goal conceded per game (over the 38 games) - 0.95
18/19 - goal conceded per game (over the 38 games) -1.42
We have seen improvements defensively over his first season, but it has actually dropped off from last season (even when you remove the anomalous result).
Overall, I feel that there is a bit of a false premise of improvement. I think a lot of the basis of improvement has actually been founded on finishing second, but that really has more to do with the 30 point drop off of Liverpool than clawing that gap through our own improvement. In truth, I think Solskjaer has been a bit fortunate that Liverpool did fall so far as there would be no second place to plaster over the lack of substantial improvement.
No trophies again just becomes more indicative that he may not be the right manager for the job.
There is still huge amount of improvement to make of course. Simply in attacking and defending set pieces. We should look for a specialist coach in that area as it’s really cost us all season.You are certainly right in which they also lost a final in European competition... And the opponents name had "real" in its name.
Good recruitment is certainly key and essential to continue the positive trends. But the buck shouldn't stop there. If we want to keep Carrick and McKenny, fine, no issue with that, just a few more coaches to the team. It will benefit us greatly to have some proven specialists.
Except Liverpool had a top class manager, even with better players we can’t expect Ole to compete with recent standards needed to win the league.The problem with these lists is it doesn’t give context. We are trying to catch City and spent significantly less while they were adding to I what they already had.
We are finally in a position where we are adding to a good team which needs a bit more quality and depth. Kind of where Liverpool were before Alisson and Van Dijk were signed the same summer.
Completely agree.Except Liverpool had a top class manager, even with better players we can’t expect Ole to compete with recent standards needed to win the league.
Ole’s not building towards that level, he doesn’t have ability to and that’s not a criticism just acceptance that very few do and Ole isn’t even close.
We finished 3rd and got to the semi last yearOf course it is progress. From 4th to 2nd and from QF to Final of the EL. But do we want to be Arsenal? Perennial losers and also rans?
Sorry, but thats just nonsense.Points wise yes we progressed, performance wise we dont. Still our best form was last year after the covid break. We still have the same of issues, we can't play from the back as soon as we are pressed, we are nothing short of SHIT at defending set pieces and when a team locks itself we barelely look like scoring.
Seriously, is anyone optimistic for next year? does anyone feels we made a jump and are just 2-3 players away from challenging? we have a BIG coaching problem in very specific parts of our game. Its been 3 years of Ole and we havent improved at all at them. People are deluded if they think by signing Sancho we'll sudenly crack up defenses, or if he sign a more comanding GK or Varane/Kounde or whoever we'll magically defend great at set pieces.
Those issues are solved with coaching and training, Ole needs to change the coaches or fix the things himself its too much of a liability to have. Teams are targeting us its ridiculous now.
With this coaching team we'll only be as good as our players, we need a coach than can develop a team that players better as a whole than their individuals.
Liverpool problems were really different than ours, they had a shitty goal keeper, thats not a coaching issue thats a player issue solved by buying Alisson. They used their fullback as a main channel for attack therefore they needed a wordclass defender that allowed them to do it. Virgil solved that for them amazingly. That was a team that was playing good but were lacking some key pieces.Sorry, but thats just nonsense.
Remember how much an impact Bruno had? How Van Dijk and Allison completely transformed Liverpool from leaking like a sieve to barely conceding. Its not like Klopp suddenly figured out in 2018 how to coach a defense. Top players make a massive difference, which is why clubs are willing to part with vast amounts of money to secure their service
I really like Greenwood and think hes a star in the making, but hes still just a teen and hes future should be as a CF not on the wing. Sancho is one of the most productive players in Europe and i'd be really surprised if he did not improve us significantly
I agree that we suck at set pieces and probably a lot of that has to do with limitations of our coaching staff, but if we had prime Vidic back there instead of Lindelof we would have conceded much less
