Our Progress

[CG1010]

The problem that people keep avoiding in this debate is that our actual football is not improving - the collective organisation, the fluidity in terms of passing and movement, little combinations and being on the same wave length etc After two years of a managerial stint, if top class work has been done on the training ground, these things should be very apparent to the named eye. But with us, it isn't. I see results go up and down based on the form of the individuals (as with any team) and us getting better because have Bruno, or Greenwood or Cavani. What I don't see is the team being elevated by anything else other than their on field efforts on the day i.e the background work.

In fact I see Chelsea, and leaving aside the fact that their attack is woeful, I see Tuchels impact already. The ball retention, ability to find team mates instantly, and the defensive organisation has already come on leaps and bounds.

More than winning/not winning these last 3 games, it's these things not happening that disappoint me.

We better have an incredible transfer summer as I believe City, Chelsea and Liverpool at the very least are much better coached football sides than us. Hence we need our personnel to give us the edge.

Not saying we play world class football but this is a bit hyperbolic..

When you credit our improvement to Cavani, Bruno and Greenwood, you haven't seen improvement in players who were already here? Luke Shaw, Fred, Mctominay etc?

You say there are no combinations/players on the same wavelength -- well we will never play like Pep's team because that's just not Ole's footballing philosophy and I am ok with that. During Fergie's time our football was more unstructured than Pep, but one feature was partnerships in pairs all across the field - both CBs, full back + winger, two midfielders, #9+#10, etc. Now compared to pre-Ole, wouldn't you say we have much more established partnerships and combinations in for example, Lindelof and Maguire, Fred and Mctominay, Shaw and Rashford? Clearly our right side and CF position have been developing and we need to upgrade our CB and midfield positions. But when there has been so much squad turnover then I would say it's impressive.

 

[gorky_utd]

My biggest issue is that it seems the top 4 for next season will again be us, city, che, liv and glazers might not want to invest big if that is the case. Hope I am wrong and we sign Sancho and a cb atleast. Otherwise, I don't expect ole to magically challenge for the title.

 

[Escobar]

There is progress, yes. But there are also plenty of issues (still the same for years) that show that we're still far off

 

[kundalini]

I expect us to challenge for the title next season. Our current squad is fine. We are not in need of lots of glamorous signings.

However, we do need our best players to be fit and in decent form. This season we could not cope with the combination of Martial's poor form, Greenwood barely contributing until April and Rashford carrying various injuries; that was simply too much for us to deal with.

Learn from this season, adjust accordingly. Fewer defensive errors, better understanding between players, improved movement inside the penalty area; leading to better results.

This forum seems obsessed by change, when continuity looks to me like a more sensible route to success.

 

[Water Melon]

I do not expect us to challenge for the title next season. City will have a much better season, Pool will get their key players back and improve, Tuchel is very likely to have a better squad and take it further. Doubt the Glazers will spend much, and I just can't see Ole becoming a better manager than his 3 main counterparts in the league. City's domination will continue.

 

[largelyworried]

We've definitely made progress. I know it seems a long time ago, but it was actually only last season that our attacking midfield was routinely a selection from Pereira, Lingard, James and Mata. The quality of the football and the strength of the squad are much better this season.

The real question is whether we will continue to make progress next season. I think we may improve a little, but I'm not convinced we're ready to make a major step up. From what we've seen of Ole, I think we're close to our ceiling with him as manager. We might squeak an FA Cup, maybe stay in the title race slightly longer. But I fully expect City to add 10 points to their total from this season when they have a proper pre season, so we need to improve by around 20 to 25 points. Even with a proper break over summer, I just don't see it happening.

 

[Buchan]

The same could be said about the manager and the coaching staff.

To my mind, this is the biggest reason why we are unable to produce good performances on a consistent basis. The best managers in this league get their teams playing to a standard greater than the sum of their parts. Is that something we can say about Solskjaer? I think we all know the answer to that one. We still look like a team of strangers almost three years into his tenure. When will the excuses end and people accept that this is about as good as it’s going to get under his stewardship?

 

[A-man]

It’s clear improvement. We started this season badly, but already after 3-4 matches we improved and have improved since, in all areas of the pitch. We secured our top-4 so early and in combo with an extreme schedule it is not strange we play b team and that the first xi players switch off. We saw the same with Liverpool last season and the same with City now. Between the start and the finish we’ve had a long stretch of good games with lots of goals scored and few conceded. This is what we build on. This is the progress.
It also needs to be taken in to context that the PL has become much more competitive and to compare points , goals, conceded goals etc with old seasons is meaningless.

I expect us to challenge for the title next season. Our current squad is fine. We are not in need of lots of glamorous signings.

However, we do need our best players to be fit and in decent form. This season we could not cope with the combination of Martial's poor form, Greenwood barely contributing until April and Rashford carrying various injuries; that was simply too much for us to deal with.

Learn from this season, adjust accordingly. Fewer defensive errors, better understanding between players, improved movement inside the penalty area; leading to better results.

This forum seems obsessed by change, when continuity looks to me like a more sensible route to success.

The most sensible post in six months. It’s exactly how it should be done. Improvement over time by strengthening weaknesses, rather than make big changes all the time.

 

[Pexbo]

Yeah let's compare our back-up LB to their stand-out right back all season

Ake has barely played all season and will likely leave the club in a season or two. Not much between him and Axel.

Laporte has regressed a lot this season. He's better than Bailly, but the gap isn't as big as it was.

I'll concede on James and McFred.

Selective choices to make an argument though. Our squads aren't worlds apart like so many think which is my point.

Our First XIs aren’t worlds apart. Our strength in depth is. I’m not sure how that’s even up for debate.

 

[Coops73]

There has definitely been progress and I would see finishing 2nd and winning the Europa as a fairly successful season.

I know people will say this isn’t where we should be, we’re United. we expect better and while I understand that to a degree, we haven’t got the squad or even the first team to win the premier league or CL...yet.

People will say Ole isn’t up to it and that we’re a badly coached team etc but I don’t see many coaches/managers getting much better out of this squad.

In my opinion we’re several players short. If we sign Sancho, Varane, Rice for example I would expect to see a much better season than this, truly challenging for the title and the CL but those signings or signings of a similar ilk ain’t happening all at once and even then I still think we need a world class striker.

If we win the Europa I’ll be relatively happy with the season but it’s only relative to our current squad.

 

[Longshanks]

To my mind, this is the biggest reason why we are unable to produce good performances on a consistent basis. The best managers in this league get their teams playing to a standard greater than the sum of their parts. Is that something we can say about Solskjaer? I think we all know the answer to that one. We still look like a team of strangers almost three years into his tenure. When will the excuses end and people accept that this is about as good as it’s going to get under his stewardship?

Which managers in this league are getting there team to play to a standard greater than the sum of there parts? Possibly only David Moyes and Biesla jumps to mind.

 

[largelyworried]

Which managers in this league are getting there team to play to a standard greater than the sum of there parts? Possibly only David Moyes and Biesla jumps to mind.

I suppose one way of looking at it is, if Ole were in charge of City this season, would he have easily won the league and got to the CL final? Personally, I don't think he would. So in that respect, I would say Pep has added value to what is already a talented squad.

 

[Verminator]

I suppose one way of looking at it is, if Ole were in charge of City this season, would he have easily won the league and got to the CL final? Personally, I don't think he would. So in that respect, I would say Pep has added value to what is already a talented squad.

So Ole isn't as good as an elite manager, who's won in the 3 top leagues?

 

[Longshanks]

I suppose one way of looking at it is, if Ole were in charge of City this season, would he have easily won the league and got to the CL final? Personally, I don't think he would. So in that respect, I would say Pep has added value to what is already a talented squad.

Would you say pep has achieved greater than the sum of citys parts though? personally after inheriting an already title winning quality squad and then proceeding to spend 1 billion pounds on it, I would of thought winning the title would be the minimum.

If city go on to win the CL than you could say that they have had an excellent season but its hardly punching above there weight considering they have the most expensive assembled squad in Europe, probably the greatest strength and depth in Europe and maybe even the best in terms of quality aswell.

I don't think many teams have massively punched above there weight at all this season.

 

[Siorac]

On the other hand we'd be sat 2nd in the Bundesliga only 4 points off of Bayern who were the best team in Europe less than 12 months ago

The Bundesliga is an 18-team league though so it only has 34 games per team. We'd be four points behind Bayern even though we played four more games than them.

 

[manichester]

Inconsistancy is our worst concern not just between games but during 90 minutes.
Players give the ball away far to often and switch off defensively.
Defending set pieces is a lottery.
Decision making in the opponents final third costs us decent openings.
We fire the ball in from corners and there is no end product.

 

[Mike Smalling]

The squad and the togetherness has certainly improved a lot under Ole, but I worry about the mentality. The Liverpool, Fulham and Roma (A) games are all recent examples of really poor mentality. It needs fixing somehow, because we are not going to challenge for the title, if we choke so easily.

 

[yamo123x]

Have we progressed? A little

Performance wise definitely not, its hard to explain how inconsistent we have been, so many poor first half performances rescued by a magic 15minutes in the 2nd half. We look poorly coached and motivated. I can count on one hand how many good 90 min dominant performances we have had all year.

Resilience wise yes, adding winners like Bruno and Cavani has helped and we have shown great spirit when behind and produced some great comebacks.

I like Ole alot and whilst he is doing a good job.. i still don't think he is the man to turn us back into serial winners,he lacks charisma and there is no style of play at all. The playing staff needs improvements right through the squad.....we need CD, CM x2, RW and we need to.get deadwood off the wage list, something Ole has done well in recent years.

So overall we have improved a little bit, but this is to be expected with the added personnel, but we have been just too Inconsistent, we need to find a way to dominate games, dominate possession something we cant do right now
A good summer in the market will help

 

[passing-wind]

I think it's impossible to predict what will happen next season. This season is a good example alongside the rest of Europe, COVID / pandemic seems to have effected most top teams in Europe and their relative strengths domestically.

The biggest issue with Ole is that his team's will never pass what I call the eye test. United will not play lucrative progressive football under his management, so naturally the team will have a ceiling unless there is a good selection of individual quality players to raise the standards of the team.

The only method to the squad progressing next season is with very strong signings.

 

[AmanNits04]

Points are all relative every season, one season 85 is enough to win the league and in another season you have to get 100 points to win it. I think there has been a considerable progress, finally we are getting our rhythm, players which we had written off are performing well, Luke Shaw being one of them, Harry has been immaculate in defense. Bruno is Bruno, The problem that we have is our central midfield, the overall quality is lower when compared to team who have similar ambitions. Fred and Mct, lindelof no matter how hardworking they are, will never be first team players that will make you win the league.
If we make 3-4 shrewd signings, Sancho probably being one of them, we could look at challenging the league, we need a couple of players like Bruno to drag us during those periods where the team is either tired or not motivated to perform.
YoY wise, I'd say we have progressed. Also don't forget, as players play more, they grown in experience and become better players, Same goes for managers.
I for one am excited about the next season, and seeing the protests and all, I believe the Glazers might loosen their pocket a bit next season.

 

[mitchmouse]

Progress? United have dropped 10 points from winning positions at Old Trafford, their highest ever such total at home in a Premier League season.

Progress? We've secured second place (but could finish 15 points behind City) and could win the Europa. Jose did that and won a League Cup. That is literally not progress.

Do we play better football under Ole? Sometimes, but sometimes we are nothing short of appalling. I just see us stuck in the same old place with some people believing the hype, PR and spin because they (as am I) are desperate for Ole - who we all idolise - to succeed.

And we've heard Ole's excuses time and time again. This after the Fulham game: "We were too loose, giving the ball away too often...We need to sort a few things out, stop trying to be the world beater, and to just play as a team." He's had close to 30 months to sort it out - and hasn't

 

[Mickson]

The problem that people keep avoiding in this debate is that our actual football is not improving - the collective organisation, the fluidity in terms of passing and movement, little combinations and being on the same wave length etc After two years of a managerial stint, if top class work has been done on the training ground, these things should be very apparent to the named eye. But with us, it isn't. I see results go up and down based on the form of the individuals (as with any team) and us getting better because have Bruno, or Greenwood or Cavani. What I don't see is the team being elevated by anything else other than their on field efforts on the day i.e the background work.

In fact I see Chelsea, and leaving aside the fact that their attack is woeful, I see Tuchels impact already. The ball retention, ability to find team mates instantly, and the defensive organisation has already come on leaps and bounds.

More than winning/not winning these last 3 games, it's these things not happening that disappoint me.

We better have an incredible transfer summer as I believe City, Chelsea and Liverpool at the very least are much better coached football sides than us. Hence we need our personnel to give us the edge.

This. People are still raving about the same things year after year "sign more players!!!" which we have done. In fact most in the world just behind City. New players will only get you so far, you need something more to be champions.

 

[Siorac]

I'm with those who say there has been progress but it's overstated.

We have a younger, more likable squad with more potential than in the times of Mourinho. That is good.

However, our football is, more often than not, disjointed, sloppy, unconvincing. Our results are significantly better than the performances (for example, based on xPts, Chelsea should be 11 points ahead of us, despite the confusing narrative that our finishing is poor - it really isn't).

Having to come from behind in half of our wins speaks well for our team's resilience and attitude - but does show that we are often struggling to impose ourselves on games, that we're lacking control.

We are still light years away from becoming a team that can challenge for the major trophies. We'll be in a top 4 scrap next season, in all likelihood. Let's hope that Chelsea decide to re-appoint Lampard and that Liverpool will have all their defenders injured again.

 

[Noodle]

Utd have definitely made some progress over the last 2-3 seasons, the squad on paper seems a little stronger and you seem to find ways to win games you'd have lost in the past.

That said i think you've returned to the level Jose had you at in his second season (2nd and the EL title). The question should be is will Ole be the man to add 1-2 world class players and kick on to win the major trophies?

I would put us in the same bracket (4 pts seperates us over two entire seasons, last season it was just goal difference). We've made the Fa Cup Final and the CL final but made next to no progress in the league from when Sarri was in charge.

 

[theklr]

Progress? We've secured second place (but could finish 15 points behind City) and could win the Europa. Jose did that and won a League Cup. That is literally not progress.

It is progress from the shambles Jose left us in getting to those achievements, sacrificing the long term squad for short term success.

I dont think anyone disagree that if Ole goes he has left us with a far better squad than he got.

But I agree that this season has been a fluke in many ways, with Liverpool and Chelsea having their troubles, and we are statswise overperforming, so next season will really be Ole's first real test.

 

[Siorac]

That said i think you've returned to the level Jose had you at in his second season (2nd and the EL title)

We won the EL in his first season, when we finished sixth in the league. In 2017/18, we only had an FA Cup final to go with second place.

That said, it does feel remarkably similar to that season. Results are much better than performances, abject capitulation in the Champions League... if we lose the EL final, the parallels will be complete.

 

[mitchmouse]

It is progress from the shambles Jose left us in getting to those achievements, sacrificing the long term squad for short term success.

I dont think anyone disagree that if Ole goes he has left us with a far better squad than he got.

But I agree that this season has been a fluke in many ways, with Liverpool and Chelsea having their troubles, and we are statswise overperforming, so next season will really be Ole's first real test.

I sort of agree although I reckon Joes inherited a huge fecking mess (he might have made it worse, he certainly didn't clean it up)

 

[Noodle]

We won the EL in his first season, when hlwe finished sixth in the league. In 2017/18, we only had an FA Cup final to go with second place.

That said, it does feel remarkably similar to that season. Results are much better than performances, abject capitulation in the Champions League... if we lose the EL final, the parallels will be complete.

Apologies, i got my seasons mixed up

 

[Eurotrash]

We are definitely much better now than a year ago. Don't read too much into the last string of games. Excited for next season.

 

[Judas]

I don't get how anyone can think this 2nd place finish is the same as the Jose one, do people not remember how unrelentingly miserable we all were? It's a total different atmosphere and feeling around this group of players and where we could go with a few more signings. Ole may not be the one to win us the league, but there's not the venom and disdain towards him (from most) as there were Jose by this stage of that season.

 

[Siorac]

I don't get how anyone can think this 2nd place finish is the same as the Jose one, do people not remember how unrelentingly miserable we all were? It's a total different atmosphere and feeling around this group of players and where we could go with a few more signings. Ole may not be the one to win us the league, but there's not the venom and disdain towards him (from most) as there were Jose by this stage of that season.

The similarity is that we're quite good at eking out results to mask poor performances. Every single game is a massive struggle, we almost never have routine, convincing wins.

But yeah, the atmosphere is better, unquestionably.

 

[RoyH1]

Our squad has gotten better and I feel more confident than I did during the Moyes/van Gaal years. I do think Ole needs some more help and we need a proper modern technical director who helps him out (no old boys getting the jobs because they're friends).
We need to take a big next step next season and the Glazers better open up their purses so we can compete with Abu Dhabi and the other sugar daddy clubs.

 

[Judas]

The similarity is that we're quite good at eking out results to mask poor performances. Every single game is a massive struggle, we almost never have routine, convincing wins.

But yeah, the atmosphere is better, unquestionably.

In all honesty, if the first few months of next season are similar, only playing one good half of football, barely ever putting in solid 90 minute performances, when we'll have had a pre-season and a non covid messed up schedule then I'll be asking serious questions. I'm not 100% convinced we're destined for greatness, but I also don't sense the doom and gloom of the past.

I do however know I'll be gutted and infuriated if we don't win the EL, and the doubt about how that game goes is already setting in.

 

[loki]

When he started we had a bloated squad, not completely cleared yet but getting there. No huge failure signing at all. 'Worst' signings are Maguire but that's only about price, and he's played pretty much every game, so that's getting debatable and James who I'm certain we could sell for more than we bought him for. My main criticism is consistently sticking with combinations that are flawed for the sake of consistency: Maguire-Lindelof, McTominay-Fred. We have a fix for the first as both could work better with a pacier player beside them and I think Bailly or Tuanzebe should have been given a chance to forge a combination with Maguire. And we need a genuine DM really badly to break up McFred, which has been functional as a stopgap but is for sure not the answer long term.

Points wise I think there are reasons behind it, I haven't been completely happy with everything but overall going in the right direction, and few of the problems are not fixable, whether they do get fixed is the main thing

 

[GBBQ]

The squad and the togetherness has certainly improved a lot under Ole, but I worry about the mentality. The Liverpool, Fulham and Roma (A) games are all recent examples of really poor mentality. It needs fixing somehow, because we are not going to challenge for the title, if we choke so easily.

What do those 3 games have in common? Nothing was at stake for United and meant more to the opponents (still fighting for places in the league or reclaiming some pride after a heavy loss or relegation). It was really like 3 cup finals for those teams where they just went for it and we didn't match that intensity because there was little point in doing so. Yes it would be great to have killer instinct for every game we play but in a season where we consistently had 2 games a week in very trying global conditions I'm ok with the foot being off the gas, winning those games wouldn't have changed our final position in the table or the EL.

If we can't see a comfortable second place finish with an EL final still to come as progress worth being happy with then what's the point in supporting the team?

 

[LoneStar]

I think we have improved compared to last season. The team looks more cohesive and consistent now (barring the performances at the start of the season).

I'm pleasantly surprised that we ended up 2nd. With our transfers this season, I was genuinely expecting a top 4 challenge at best. Whether this is down to other teams faltering or us, I'm not sure.

Either way I would consider it to be the best season since Fergie if we win the Europa League. We have played some good football, and never given up which has been a very nice change.

 

[OneUnited24]

The squad and the togetherness has certainly improved a lot under Ole, but I worry about the mentality. The Liverpool, Fulham and Roma (A) games are all recent examples of really poor mentality. It needs fixing somehow, because we are not going to challenge for the title, if we choke so easily.

You do know that we've collected over 30 points from losing positions this season right? Hardly a team with poor mentality....

We've played a lot more games this season than our rivals and had a tough week where we had 4 games in 8 days. Its amazing how fatigue never gets a mention around here.

 

[Judas]

You do know that we've collected over 30 points from losing positions this season right? Hardly a team with poor mentality....

We've played a lot more games this season than our rivals and had a tough week where we had 4 games in 8 days. Its amazing how fatigue never gets a mention around here.

You can still have a poor mentality in different areas though? We go 1-0 up in games and take our foot off the gas so so often. Thats poor mentality. Mentality isn't just shown in an ability to come back in games.

 

[Bobcat]

Of course theres been improvements you miserable gits

• More points than last year, also consider that we had a shite start to the season with no preseason and all the league matches after Villa were basically dead rubber games
• One place better on the table
• Actually got into a final instead of bottling it in the semi
• Decent run in the domestic cups where we yet again had a fecking brutal draw
• Some good football at display at times. Spurs, City, Soton etc
• An impressive number of comebacks this season says this is a squad with good mentality
• Core of the squad is quite young and most of our key players have just entered or are yet to enter their prime years
• Ed is gone
• Besides Cavani, none of the summer transfers last year had any sort of meaningful impact on our first XI

 

[Siorac]

In all honesty, if the first few months of next season are similar, only playing one good half of football, barely ever putting in solid 90 minute performances, when we'll have had a pre-season and a non covid messed up schedule then I'll be asking serious questions. I'm not 100% convinced we're destined for greatness, but I also don't sense the doom and gloom of the past.

I do however know I'll be gutted and infuriated if we don't win the EL, and the doubt about how that game goes is already setting in.

I fully expect a defeat in the EL final. Don't get me wrong: we have a much better team and we should win but it's hard to see us suddenly snapping out of this dreadful form.

A couple of goals from set pieces, or maybe Wan Bissaka switching off at the far post. We'll have a decent spell of about 15 minutes during which we'll miss some chances so that people can blame finishing instead of the overall poor performance. Like against Sevilla last year.