Overrated defence?

[Aboutreika18]

We've been seeing a lot of individual errors in defence this season. I can't remember the last time our team was so easy to play through in midfield and defence, yet most of the attention on here has been on our wingers and other areas of the team.

While Rio and Vidic are obviously on the wane, Evans is a dependable stand-in but is he good enough and error-free enough to be a long term first choice CB here? Smalling has been underwhelming this season, while obviously quite talented, he has had his share of errors, even tonight.

Can Rafael overcome persistent injury problems and occasional concentration issues to be our long term RB or is it time to look for someone else?

 

[Ryan's Beard]

With a more solid midfield whoever we play in defence will have much less to do. As it is there's no one shielding them, our midfield might as well just lie down when we're without the ball.

 

[Fergies Formula]

Never thought much of Evans in terms of being world class

 

[Kostur]

With a more solid midfield whoever we play in defence will have much less to do. As it is there's no one shielding them, our midfield might as well just lie down when we're without the ball.

They were actually shielded quite well today by Fletcher I'd say. But we're making some idiotic mistakes up there, today's positioning of Rio for the first goal, Smalling breaking the offside trap, Rio being lost 3/4 of the match ( his hoofing has been good today btw ), Smalling's jumping for the second goal. Same shit different day I feel, you could write the same story for Spurs match. Only time I feel safe is when we play Jones, Evra, Rafael and Evans combo.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

Not having Jones is massive at the moment. Whether it's defence or midfield he is genuinely a key player now. He shields the defence from midfield and he's an excellent centre-back. I might be off the mark but I believe we tend to keep more clean sheets with him than without him.

 

[Ryan's Beard]

They were actually shielded quite well today by Fletcher I'd say. But we're making some idiotic mistakes up there, today's positioning of Rio for the first goal, Smalling breaking the offside trap, Rio being lost 3/4 of the match ( his hoofing has been good today btw ), Smalling's jumping for the second goal. Same shit different day I feel, you could write the same story for Spurs match. Only time I feel safe is when we play Jones, Evra, Rafael and Evans combo.

Quite well is being generous to be fair. Fletcher did ok but that was it. Off the ball we've been useless throughout the middle for ages; it's far too easy for opposition players to waltz in and around us and it was again today.

 

[Twigg]

I've never been a fan of Rio and Evans being played together, should be Rio OR Evans with either Vidic, Jones or Smalling.

 

[Bestie07]

Our defense is not overrated, I don't think it's rated at all.

 

[CantonaVeron]

You can't keep rotating central defenders I keep saying it thats the problem all of our defenders are good enough indivdually but it takes time and good communication to create a good steady defence. Its time to pick two out of Jones, Smalling and Evans and play them all the time together them them grow with the time they all have being relativley young we will have a world class defence for years but if we continue to rotate it we will continue to leak goals. Its so simple I am suprised Moyes hasn't done it considering he was a defender himself and his teams have always been based on a solid and consistant defence.

 

[Kostur]

Quite well is being generous to be fair. Fletcher did ok but that was it. Off the ball we've been useless throughout the middle for ages; it's far too easy for opposition players to waltz in and around us and it was again today.

'Quite well' for our standards mate. But yea, off-ball movement has been a joke yet again and cost us.

 

[100]

It's not helped by our obsession with having a permanent rotation between 5 centre backs. How can CBs develop any sort of understanding when they have a new partner every game? One game you're having to cover for Ferdinand's pace, the next you don't because Jones is playing. One game you have to take into account that there's someone competent with their distribution alongside you, the next you're probably better to hoof the ball 50 yards rather than give it to a partner. Seriously, look at City when they fall back to their second or third choice centre backs and see how they cope - not much difference from us, but with us it's partly self-inflicted whereas they suffer mainly from injuries.

If Ferdinand and Vidic can no longer be relied upon to start 30/40 games a season then they shouldn't be first choice at all. You think Koscielny and Mertesacker developed their strengths by playing together once every 4 weeks?

 

[Plugsy]

Smalling's just having one of those periods in his career. It's no biggie really. It's annoying and costly but inevitable that he would. He'll come through other side soon enough.

 

[Bestie07]

It's not helped by our obsession with having a permanent rotation between 5 centre backs. How can CBs develop any sort of understanding when they have a new partner every game? One game you're having to cover for Ferdinand's pace, the next you don't because Jones is playing. One game you have to take into account that there's someone competent with their distribution alongside you, the next you're probably better to hoof the ball 50 yards rather than give it to a partner. Seriously, look at City when they fall back to their second or third choice centre backs and see how they cope - not much difference from us, but with us it's partly self-inflicted whereas they suffer mainly from injuries.

If Ferdinand and Vidic can no longer be relied upon to start 30/40 games a season then they shouldn't be first choice at all. You think Koscielny and Mertesacker developed their strengths by playing together once every 4 weeks?

This. A 100 times this. Pick two, stick with two.

 

[Ryan's Beard]

'Quite well' for our standards mate. But yea, off-ball movement has been a joke yet again and cost us.

Unfortunately, this is true.

 

[kouroux]

A lot of us are stuck with the idea that the defence is still or is close to the one were Rio/Vida/Evra were all at their best. It's been a while that our defense is far from impressive and really poor for a big team. Only DDG is a player who can be proud of himself and his performances since last season.

 

[Snow]

Would be nice to play with the same back 4 consistently. Arsenal has had theirs in tact almost all season.

I think we need a new CB to take the starting position. Too many are injured too much. There's no stability because of it.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

Yes, although I get called a WUM when I bring it up in any shape or form, but a couple of players are overrated. Not to the extent where theyre not good players but to the extent where they are good players or good prospects as opposed to great players.

Only DDG can claim to be top class in the United defence this season, something you should be thankful for, hes a great GK possibly the best in the league this season.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Never thought much of Evans in terms of being world class

Nope, me neither. Thats the one consensus opinion I think is utterly bizarre on here.

Still a good player mind, just don't think he should be starting for us.

 

[Barney]

Smalling, Rafael, Jones and Vidic are all class. Evans is above average and Evra and Buttner are awful defenders.

 

[MoneyMay]

We've been seeing a lot of individual errors in defence this season. I can't remember the last time our team was so easy to play through in midfield and defence, yet most of the attention on here has been on our wingers and other areas of the team.

While Rio and Vidic are obviously on the wane, Evans is a dependable stand-in but is he good enough and error-free enough to be a long term first choice CB here? Smalling has been underwhelming this season, while obviously quite talented, he has had his share of errors, even tonight.

Can Rafael overcome persistent injury problems and occasional concentration issues to be our long term RB or is it time to look for someone else?

Yes to the first question. Evans has been very good this season and he's already portrayed how good he is (11/12 and 12/13). He may not be world class, I don't know why that matters to some, as I don't really know how this is judged when it comes to CBs, but he's a reliable figure in defence. The only problem for some is that he's not great in a high line. I disagree with Smalling having an underwhelming season. This isn't true for me - he has had a good season. At CB, he has looked very good, but at right back, while he's competent, he isn't the best with certain elements, such as overlapping/underlapping and passing.

Rafael's been pretty good for around two years now. He's a quality right back and it's no surprise that we have suffered, both offensively and defensively, when it's not been in the side. When he has been in the side, we have looked potent down the right. He's not really had monumental mistakes frequently to be fair to him - his last three were earlier last year (Sturridge goal, Dempsey's goal, and poor first half performance away to Real Madrid).

Only Rafael can do this at right RB with such composure:

 

[kps88]

We need new full backs. Rafael is the only one we have who can be trusted. The rest are either terrible going forward or at defending.

 

[Sixpence]

I reckon it would help if we played our defenders in their correct positions. Or is that a crazy idea?

 

[Brwned]

Evans for me is a little overrated. As long as he is a constant in our defence we'll never have a top class defence. There are other factors like the decline of the other experienced defenders, but since he's been first choice for us we've consistently conceded too many goals.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

Question and this is a genuine question as I dont know, but will Fabio leaving if he does have any effect on Rafas existence at United do you think?

 

[kps88]

Evans for me is a little overrated. As long as he is a constant in our defence we'll never have a top class defence. There are other factors like the decline of the other experienced defenders, but since he's been first choice for us we've consistently conceded too many goals.

Sort of explains SAF's alleged interest in Garay.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Evans for me is a little overrated. As long as he is a constant in our defence we'll never have a top class defence. There are other factors like the decline of the other experienced defenders, but since he's been first choice for us we've consistently conceded too many goals.

How many of the goals are down to him? This seems another thread for everyone who wants to have a pop at Evans to do so 'constructively'. Brilliant.

 

[Brwned]

How many of the goals are down to him? This seems another thread for everyone who wants to have a pop at Evans to do so 'constructively'. Brilliant.

Why are you getting so defensive about a harmless comment about one of our players? I don't hate him, I don't want him sold, I don't want him booted out of the team immediately, I just think he's not at the level needed if we're to compete in the CL, for example. How many goals are down to him is an impossible question to answer. Was Bony's goal down to him? He originally had Bony in his sights but let him drift off him. I don't think that was an individual mistake, but rather a goal that came about thanks to a porous defence that invites pressure, and Evans being a key part of that defence has to take some responsibility for that. When Brown and Rio played together I don't think Brown made many individual mistakes that you can point to and say "that's his fault", but having him there obviously played a big part in our porous defence. I think Evans is at that level.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

It's the same old shite everytime something happens. People here use it as a stick to have a go at Evans with. This threads just another vessel for it.

 

[Brwned]

I don't understand what you mean. I'm not having a go at him, I'm not insulting him, I'm just expressing a harmless opinion on the subject. What's the big issue with people having the opinion that Evans can be improved upon?

 

[Ash_G]

I think it's hard to rate the defence until we get some real solidity in the core of the team. The centreback and centre midfielder partnership is constantly changing and there also seems to be significant deviances in how they play. Sometimes the midfield sit and offer pretty good cover, sometimes one of them goes awol and leaves us open. As good as Rio and Vidic were they also enjoyed a solid front two in front of them more often than not as well as a hugely experienced CB and a younger Evra. DDG has done v well, but he's not VDS's level yet and as I said there's considerable changes around them. In general we're too open to counters.

I think though in terms of CB's Evans, Smalling and Jones can be very good, certainly in terms of the league. Evans may well never become absolute top draw there but I don't think he'll let anyone down in a settled team. Jones has the potential to be. I think Smalling with fall short but still be one of the best in our league, he lacks the compusure/ability on the ball to be great atm. I've no doubt if Rafael stays fit that he can be a top right back.

 

[beergod]

We keep getting burned by playing center backs at fullback. The sad thing is that I don't see any recognition of this by Moyes.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

I don't understand what you mean. I'm not having a go at him, I'm not insulting him, I'm just expressing a harmless opinion on the subject. What's the big issue with people having the opinion that Evans can be improved upon?

I think it's pretty clear what I said. Littered throughout this forum is people who take every opportunity for some Evans bashing. They don't post on the subject unless there's something to moan about, and despite SAF and Moyes both constantly picking him over Jones and Smalling they claim he's behind them both.

 

[Gerald G]

Smalling, Rafael, Jones and Vidic are all class. Evans is above average and Evra and Buttner are awful defenders.

Sorry but Evans is our best defender. I think Smalling is very good but I think his positioning could have been a bit better for the goal or maybe I'm being harsh?

All I know is I love Rafael and Jones. They really do need to stay fit. Whether it's in midfield or defence Jones bosses it.

 

[Brwned]

I think it's pretty clear what I said. Littered throughout this forum is people who take every opportunity for some Evans bashing. They don't post on the subject unless there's something to moan about, and despite SAF and Moyes both constantly picking him over Jones and Smalling they claim he's behind them both.

I just don't understand why you directed that criticism of me when I've done nothing of the sort?! I think Smalling's probably a little overrated too and Evans deserves his place in the team at the moment ahead of Smalling, Rio and Vidic. I reckon Jones should be starting at CB though and he'll quickly surpass Evans, and he'll be the standard of defender we need to aim for to have a top class defence. That's all.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

I just don't understand why you directed that criticism of me when I've done nothing of the sort?! I think Smalling's probably a little overrated too and Evans deserves his place in the team at the moment ahead of Smalling, Rio and Vidic. I reckon Jones should be starting at CB though and he'll quickly surpass Evans, and he'll be the standard of defender we need to aim for to have a top class defence. That's all.

I quoted you to point out that not many of the goals can be attributed to Evans. The rest was a general point.

 

[Sunny Jim]

I reckon it would help if we played our defenders in their correct positions. Or is that a crazy idea?

Crazy. Im worried as Moyes hasnt tried Rio at RB yet.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

Nope, me neither. Thats the one consensus opinion I think is utterly bizarre on here.

Still a good player mind, just don't think he should be starting for us.

It is the Irish link that sees him so exalted on here. Evans is a good passer, he played some great passes today and he moves very well with the ball. But he lacks presence for me, he is not a leader and he makes too many mistakes. I think that he was on Bony for the second goal today, he got inbetween two defenders too easily anyway.

Smalling isn't very good at right back. I am not sure how good he is at centre back because I haven't seen enough of him there recently.

Jones is a superb prospect but sadly very injury prone at the moment.

Rio and Vidic are in decline.

Rumors persisted last season that SAF was looking for another centre back so perhaps he felt the same too.

Nonetheless. I still think that the major problems are with the midfield and the management. We create next too nothing through the middle. Carrick is one of the players who has bottled it this season for me, showing why he will never be a reliable international class player in my eyes. We just don't have any dynamism in the midfield, no leadership, no intensity and no creativity. I think that is all compounded by us setting up too often with a two man midfield against an opposition three. I think that if we had a better midfield then the pressure on the defence would be less and we wouldn't have to talk about conceding goals as often.

 

[Canuckred64]

It’s awful hard to rate our defence with all the rotation, injuries and players playing out of position. Evra is spent, but he's probably played more football than just about any other player over the last few years. Rafael has become a very good right back and if he could avoid the injuries, he would be as good as there is in the league. However, playing Valencia or Smalling at right back when Rafael is not playing, is just asking for trouble. Smalling hasn't played at centre back enough in my opinion to tell if he is good enough and until he is played there on a regular basis, I can't really say. Jones has been played all over the place the last two years and I feel we have hurt his progress by doing so. Until Jones is assigned a set position and played there regularly we won't know how good he really is. Evans is a good centre back, but I don't believe he will ever be as good as Vidic and Rio in their prime. Evans would be alright if we pair him with a world class centre back but he can't be the main man in the centre of defence.

 

[bosnian_red]

I just don't understand why you directed that criticism of me when I've done nothing of the sort?! I think Smalling's probably a little overrated too and Evans deserves his place in the team at the moment ahead of Smalling, Rio and Vidic. I reckon Jones should be starting at CB though and he'll quickly surpass Evans, and he'll be the standard of defender we need to aim for to have a top class defence. That's all.

Completely agree. Far too many people on here jump on people if they dare criticize one of them and it's some sort of mystery why our defence has been porous and a weak point since rio and Vidic declined. I see posts like people saying smalling is already a top class defender which just boggles the mind. If our current defenders were top class, then surely we wouldn't be letting in so many soft goals as we have over the last 2 years? I said it before but it gets overshadowed by all the others on here who think smalling/Evans can do no wrong. I can't see a future top class centre back partnership between the defenders we currently have. Jones can reach the required standard but he's still a decent amount if time away from that, and Evans has never given me a sense of security. Him and Vidic are the best of a decent bunch at the moment, nothing more.

 

[Sixpence]

Evans for me is a little overrated. As long as he is a constant in our defence we'll never have a top class defence. There are other factors like the decline of the other experienced defenders, but since he's been first choice for us we've consistently conceded too many goals.

Watching today's second goal back I have no idea to feck as to what he is trying to do from a defensive POV. He knows Bony is right there yet gives him acres of space and decides to take up a position whereby he is doing nothing.