P&G Draft - QF: MJJ vs Theon

With players at their peak, who would win?


  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,985



MJJ

A strong defensively solid 4-3-3, the defence is led by Scirea. A man who never received a red card, who kept the legendary Baresi out of the italian national side and upon whose retirement the prestigious france football magazine described him as better than Pele,Cryuff and De Stefano. Partnering him in defence is vierchowod, one of the fastest defenders of all time and a great reader of the game.

Maradona on Vierch., "He was an animal, he had muscles to the eyelashes. It was easy to pass by him, but then when I raised my head, he was in front of me again. I would have to pass him two or three more times and then I would pass the ball because I couldn't stand him anymore"

On the flanks, I have McGrain and Lizarazu. Two good all-around fullbacks who are defensively and offensively capable, both of them will push forward and create overlaps on the flanks.

My midfield is a perfect mix, the defensive greatness of makelele is balanced by two of the finest box to box midfielders in brietner and seedorf.

In attack I have Bello di notte, Boniek, who excelled in Serie A often playing against a 5-3-2 formation and the little bird Hamrin. Bit more on Hamrin here:-

He was fast and direct, sturdy, skilful and courageous with superb powers of dribbling and acceleration, fantastic opportunist and brillant finisher. He was also blessed with a centre forward’s nose for goal and explosive reflexes, only Filippo Inzaghi could react quicker than Hamrin in whole Serie A history. Hamrin's speed in first 5-6 meters was unbelievable, surpassing human capacities and was never seen before or after Hamrin. His tricks were legendary, he could do everything with the ball, many times embarassing his markers.

To partner them, I chose suarez who will drop deep, is blessed with exceptional dribbling ability and can kill the game in a blink of an eye.

Why I will win:-

  • While Theon does have the legendary juve defense, from an all-time perspective the defense wouldn't be ranked too highly. I know it is a tendency to underrate modern players and theon might argue that history will remember this trio more highly but lets compare them to our legendary defenders, vidic and rio. Rio and Vidic conceded 0.77 goals per match compared to 0.83 for the Juve trio despite playing in a more attacking league and with less protection(playing with scholes or giggs in front of them). This shows that despite the juve defence being the best in a long time they really cant be comparable to the legends of the game.
  • A better midfield and defense, mascherano spent the prime of his career playing at centre back and maradona is not really going to be helping the midfield a lot.
  • Boniek and Hamrin have both played in Serie A, against a 5-3-2 formation the majority of their careers. The directness and dribbling of both helped them dominate the respective leagues with Hamrin finishing with a one in two goal scoring record from the wings. With my fullbacks creating overlapping opportunity, I can see my side having a lot of joy here.
Theon

TACTICS

A balanced and complimentary 3-5-2 designed to get the best out of Diego Maradona. In offence the front three are provided the perfect platform to impact the match, with a midfield filled with leadership/workrate and a world-class defence capable of keeping a clean sheet against any attack.

In possession Maradona provides the focal point, equally capable of running through the opposition or releasing Rivaldo, Batigol or Cafu/Marinho with his exquisite passing range. The Argentine boasts the highest peak of any player and elevates the performances of those around him – given the calibre of his supporting cast he should be too hot to handle for the opposition midfield.

WHY WE HAVE THE EDGE:
  • DIVERSE AND RUTHLESS ATTACK – The attacking trio is complimentary and built to get the best out of our star man. Rivaldo is arguably the greatest of all time as a left sided second striker, offering an exceptional goal-threat whilst providing a natural presence presence out wide which creates space in the middle. Spearheading the attack is the quintessential #9 in Batistuta – a technical and physical colossus who scored 85 in 117 games during 90’s Serie A and 54 goals in 77 games for Argentina.

  • MIDFIELD PLATFORM FOR MARADONA – In midfield we opted for two industrious warriors to shield the defence and stamp authority across the middle of the park, with Mascherano playing a more restrictive role whilst Bastian expresses himself box-to-box. In Schweinsteiger we have undoubtedly the most complete midfielder of the last decade – the midfield lynchpin who led Bayern to a historic treble and Germany to the ’14 World Cup (with a MOTM virtuoso performance in the final).

  • PROVEN BACK LINE – Two Brazilian fullbacks flank the back three from Juve’s historic run of six Serie A’s in a row and two CL finals in three years. When the dust settles and players start retiring this defence is guaranteed to go down as an all-time great and (for my money) the best of the last 20 years. Achievements in six years include an unbeaten 2011/12 and a record breaking 102 points in 2013/14 (two more than Man City). Across those titles the foundation was a defence which conceded the least number of goals in every single season and never conceded more than 27 goals. In the six years of Chiellini / Bonnuci / Barzagli only one other team ever conceded less than 30 goals (Roma in 13/14) whilst Juve did so in every single one (20, 24, 23, 24, 20, 27). On average during this six year period they conceded one goal every 1.7 games - which is exceptional and stands as the best six year record of any defence at any time from any of the big three European leagues (Serie A, La Liga and the Premiership).
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,073
Location
Moscow
Despite all the attacking talent on the show I can see this being a quite cagey affair. Theon's magnificent front three is faced by a formidable defensive unit with a highly competent midfield ahead of them — Vierchowod has a pretty good record against Batistuta and obviously there's that Maradona's praise, alongside with Scirea who is hands down the best defender on the pitch.

And IIRC Suarez doesn't have a good record against Juventus/Italy? Although I have to say, those three are lucky to face Suarez here, don't rate them that highly at that level.

Boniek - Breitner should work quite well, I can see it as a little less skillful homage to Breitenigge
 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
Finally :lol:

Good luck @Theon @Gio

Not much to criticise as I feel like you have a pretty balanced side but just to address the quality of the defence.

  • As mentioned, rio+vidic with less protection have a much better goal conceded record.
  • In 2012 champions league, Juventus defeated chelsea 3-0 and drew 2-2. Then lost in the quarterfinals to bayern(4-0) across two legs.
  • In 2013 champions league, finished third in a group featuring madrid and galatasary(losing 2-1 and drawing 2-2 to madrid)
  • In 2014 champions league, lost and drew against atletico(1-0,0-0), beat madrid 3-2 on aggregate and lost to barca 3-1. (The trio did not play together in the semis or the final)
  • In 2015 champions league,won one and lost one against city,lost to bayern 6-4 on aggregate in the first round.

So for all the accolade, the great juventus side has not really done that well against sides on par with itself and the record has largely been built in Serie A.
 

Theon

Lord of the Iron Islands
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
13,292
And IIRC Suarez doesn't have a good record against Juventus/Italy?
MJJ can correct me if I'm wrong but from recollection it's one goal in five games vs Juventus (the re-bound in the final from a Messi shot) and 0 goals in 1 game vs Italy (when he bit Chiellini :lol:).
 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
Despite all the attacking talent on the show I can see this being a quite cagey affair. Theon's magnificent front three is faced by a formidable defensive unit with a highly competent midfield ahead of them — Vierchowod has a pretty good record against Batistuta and obviously there's that Maradona's praise, alongside with Scirea who is hands down the best defender on the pitch.

And IIRC Suarez doesn't have a good record against Juventus/Italy? Although I have to say, those three are lucky to face Suarez here, don't rate them that highly at that level.

Boniek - Breitner should work quite well, I can see it as a little less skillful homage to Breitenigge
Bonucci and Suarez faced each other four times(both starting),suarez scored one goal in four matches during that period. However two of those matches were in 16/17 when he was past his peak.

At his peak, suarez was the best striker in the world. Not sure how you can not rate him that highly.

Scored 31 goals in 33 games for liverpool with not much help.
23 in 35 for barca next season and 48 goals in 44 matches.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,491
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
This would be even. Makelele and Breitner are solid reinforcements for MJJ. Don't rate Suarez at this level, but against a modern defence, he can be expected to have a equal footing. Hamrin vs Marinho works in his favour too.

Theon's defence with that shielding ahead, he can be expected to hold the fort, despite MJJ having slightly higher possession. That front trio is reminiscent of ma-gi-ca, but Diego and Rivaldo have individualistic playing styles, but have also played as part of a forward setup. So don't have anything to complain either.

Have gone for Theon simply because of Maradona. If you need a moment of magic to break a tight deadlock, he's the best man on either side to provide that.
 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
"those three" "don't rate them"
Ah okay, misread it.

In my opinion, even is suarez is neutralised to an extent boniek and hamrin will be too much for the Juve defense. Hamrin has 150 goals in 289 matches for fiorentina during the period when Catenaccio was at its peak.
 

Theon

Lord of the Iron Islands
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
13,292

RIVALDO: THE MOST UNSTOPPABLE FOOTBALLER SINCE MARADONA

A common observation of pundits in this country is that, if you could marry British will with continental skill, you would have the perfect footballer. Such a mixed recipe was thrillingly in evidence in Diego Maradona. Since then, however, perhaps only Rivaldo has fused the two qualities. Yet when we discuss soccer's greatest modern midfielders, Zinedine Zidane invariably comes out on top. While it would be dubious to argue that Rivaldo was a better technician than Zidane, it is arguable that, if you took everyone playing at the absolute peak of their game, Rivaldo was the best and most unstoppable footballer since Maradona.

The Guardian said:
He combines to dazzling effect the two essential qualities of the ideal footballer: artistry and efficiency. No one in the world scores more beautiful goals, more often, than Rivaldo.


Yet despite his bona fide, bandy-legged genius, he is to some extent forgotten, still ploughing on with the Greek travesty that is the lingering death of a genuinely great career. It is potentially anomalous to argue that a former World Player of the Year was underrated, yet even at his peak Rivaldo often played under a cloud. He was frequently abused while playing for Brazil, whose fans believed he spared his best for Barcelona and who had never forgiven him for a crucial mistake in the 1996 Olympics; at club level he inspired both awe and loathing on La Rambla.

Planet Football said:
He came with the promise of goals and duly delivered, scoring 19 in 34 appearances in his debut season, helping Barça to a La Liga and Copa del Rey double. He continued to dazzle for the club, functioning as the electrifying creative outlet in a team packed with natural talent. The following season he surpassed his own impressive haul with 24 league goals before being crowned both Ballon d’Or winner and FIFA World Player of the Year.
Spanish football expert John Carlin wrote that Rivaldo "combines to dazzling effect the two essential qualities of the ideal footballer: artistry and efficiency". The same could not necessarily be said of Zidane. Sir Alex Ferguson once observed that Zidane didn't really "hurt" teams and, while it sounded sacrilegious, there was a degree of truth in it. In terms of ball retention he was probably the greatest player of all time, blessed with such grace and awareness that he could play a game of real-life Pac-Man and never be caught, but to some extent his work was done in less dangerous areas. He needed good players alongside him.

A team of 11 Zidanes would kill you time and time again, but a team of 10 Nevilles and a Rivaldo could do the same. Zidane was an avant-garde footballer, as rich in subtext as it is possible for a sportsman to be, whereas Rivaldo was a rudimentary blockbuster. Yet the suspicion remains that some appreciate Zidane without knowing exactly what they're appreciating; that they are perpetuating a discourse for fear of being seen as a philistine. Nobody wants to admit that they thought Citizen Kane was crap.

The cerebral genius of Zidane makes him the ultimate fantasy footballer, whereas Rivaldo was the ultimate Fantasy Footballer: he dealt relentlessly in the hard currency of goals (86 in 159 games for Barcelona and 34 in 74 for Brazil, outstanding for a player who invariably played on the left) and assists. He delivered when it mattered most: in the team of the tournament in 1998, man of the tournament in 1999 and in 2002 - scoring 5 goals each time - including a pearling free-kick to dispatch Argentina in the '99 quarters and a classy double in the final. And if there were another category by which we judged players – coronaries induced in opposing fans when they get the ball within 30 yards of goal – he would surely be top. When he was on one, he was utterly terrifying.

These football times said:
His absolute sledgehammer of a left foot was the most lethal attacking weapon in world football at the turn of the millennium, an emphatic answer to the right foot of Gabriel Batistuta.

Apart from a right foot, Rivaldo had everything. His wiry strength allowed him to bounce off defenders, he was a outstanding dribbler, and he had a left foot that was both educated and thuggish, subtle and a sledgehammer. He could larrup the ball in, arrow a daisy-cutter a few centimetres inside the far post (the winner against Denmark in the 1998 World Cup quarter-final is the best example, but there were so many), coax a free-kick high or low, and also pass the ball in. And his control – best exemplified by a stunning, über-Le Tissier assist against Deportivo in 2002 – was sensational.

Most of all, however, he had bronca, the word used repeatedly in Diego Maradona's autobiography to refer to "anger, fury, hatred, resentment, bitter discontent ... [it was] his motivator, his fuel, his driving force". Zidane had rage blackouts, but he could not win a game on his own by imposing his personality all over it. Rivaldo could.

Rivaldo often looked apathetic and sullen – his smile was so rare that, when it came, it broke a thousand mirrors – but when the mood took him and he fancied the challenge, he pursued it with remorseless will and purpose.

Three examples spring to mind. There was his coconut-shy at an inspired Paul Robinson in a Champions League group game against Leeds in 2000, when Rivaldo finally equalised in the last minute to (temporarily) postpone Barcelona's exit; an astonishing tour de force against Manchester United in 1998 when, in a game Barcelona had to win to avoid elimination, he equalised twice before creaming an unbelievable shot off the bar and ingeniously creating another gilt-edged chance for Giovanni; but best of all there was the greatest hat-trick of all time, against Valencia on June 17, 2001, a midsummer night's dream of a performance that deserves a book and a film all of its own.


The Guardian said:
Outplayed by Valencia, Barcelona won thanks purely to a Rivaldo hat-trick - for its timing and for its genius the most gloriously implausible hat-trick anyone has ever scored in a top-class game.
In a straight shoot-out for the final Champions League place, which was worth tens of millions and even more in terms of pride, Barcelona needed a win and Valencia a draw. Twice Rivaldo screamed Barcelona ahead from long range, the second hit with such fury that it knocked him off his feet; twice Ruben Baraja equalised. Then, in the 89th minute, he scored with an overhead kick from outside the box so perfectly executed that it even swerved away from the dive of Santiago Canizares. Even now, it beggars belief.

 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
This would be even. Makelele and Breitner are solid reinforcements for MJJ. Have gone for Theon simply because of Maradona. If you need a moment of magic to break a tight deadlock, he's the best man on either side to provide that.
Fair enough but I think in scirea and vierchowod I have the perfect combination to stop maradona.

Just checked, scirea and maradona faced each other 8 times with maradona only scoring twice in those 8 games.

The 1986 world cup between italy(scirea+vierchowod) and argentina, ended 1-1 with maradona scoring.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,073
Location
Moscow
it is arguable that, if you took everyone playing at the absolute peak of their game, Rivaldo was the best and most unstoppable footballer since Maradona
I know that both you and Gio are big fans of his, but this is just not true. Fenomeno, Ronaldinho, Messi, Cristiano — that's at the very least
 

Theon

Lord of the Iron Islands
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
13,292
I know that both you and Gio are big fans of his, but this is just not true. Fenomeno, Ronaldinho, Messi, Cristiano — that's at the very least
It's an article harms - any feedback to the author. :)

I can't remember when it was written but the point he was making is that Rivaldo at his peak combined artistry, effectiveness (i.e. goals / assists) and big-game mentality in a way that no one else had since Maradona.

Putting Rivaldo in that bracket isn't too wrong to me.
 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
Kurt Hamrin, who was known in Italy as ‘l’uccellino’ - the little bird - was one of Serie A’s great players of the 1950s and 60s. He was also one of the finest footballers Sweden has ever produced. He was fast and direct, sturdy, skilful and courageous with superb powers of dribbling and acceleration, fantastic opportunist and brillant finisher. He was also blessed with a centre forward’s nose for goal and explosive reflexes, only Filippo Inzaghi could react quicker than Hamrin in whole Serie A history. Hamrin's speed in first 5-6 meters was unbelievable, surpassing human capacities and was never seen before or after Kurt Hamrin. His tricks were legendary, he could do everything with the ball, many times embarassing his markers.

Despite being a winger, Hamrin nearly always challenged for the title of Serie A capocannoniere. Born in 1934 he began his career with local side AIK Stockholm in 1952. Hamrin was a product of one of Sweden’s ‘Stars of the Future’ courses which were devised to replace the talent leaving the country following Sweden’s triumph at the 1948 Olympic Games in London. The policy was a huge success. Apart from Hamrin the courses also produced Skoglund, Axbom, Parling and Borjesson, all players who starred in the Swedish side that reached the World Cup Final in 1958. Hamrin’s displays for AIK - he scored an incredible 54 in 62 matches - naturally caught the attention of Italian clubs. In the 1950s Swedish players were all the rage in Italy. Gunnar Nordahl, a prolific striker, and Nils Liedholm, a graceful midfield player, had both joined Milan. Skoglund, a mercurial left winger, had gone to Inter. Selmosson, a talented striker known as the ‘Ray of Moonlight,’ signed for Udinese. Gustavsson, a hard defender joined Atalanta and Jeppson, an elegant forward, was a star at Napoli.

Hamrin’s destination in 1956 was Juventus, but he had an injury spoiled time in Turin. After scoring 5 goals in opening 4 matches of season, he got injured. He was part of a mediocre Juve side, the Bianconeri finishing a disappointing ninth. Not surprisingly there was a clearout. Two new forwards, Omar Sivori and John Charles arrived and Hamrin, after just one season with Juve, was offloaded to Padova who were then managed by Nereo Rocco who would later win trophies galore at Milan. It proved an inspired move for Hamrin. Virtually everyone had tipped little Padova for the drop. "Words, words, nothing but words. What the newspapers write, we should take no notice of," Rocco told his players. The Coach built a robust and well-amalgamated side with Hamrin forming a sublime understanding with the Argentine playmaker Rosa and striker Brighenti.

The men from Veneto finished third, thanks mainly to Hamrin’s goals and that summer he returned - understandably on a high - to his native Sweden to take part in the World Cup. The winger made his international bow in 1956 but after joining Juventus where he turned professional, he forfeited his place in the national side since only amateurs could play for Sweden. However, on the eve of the 1958 Finals, this rule was relaxed by the Swedish FA - no doubt to improve Sweden’s chances on home soil. Hamrin emerged as one of the stars of that World Cup, coming into his own in the quarter-final against Russia and the semi-final against West Germany. Against the Russians he unleashed his full armoury of tricks, dummying both ways and accelerating past his markers. The Swedes won 2-0 with Hamrin heading the first and setting up the second, beating three men before cutting the ball back to the grateful Simonsson. One journalist describing this match said: "It was though Hamrin had launched a personal blitzkrieg."

Against the ruthless Germans he was once again Sweden’s danger man, tormenting his marker, full-back Juskowiak, time and time again. The defender became so wound up that when Hamrin - who, wrote the English journalist Brian Glanville, bore his way through the German defence "like an inspired mole" - fouled him 12 minutes into the second half, he lost his temper and retaliated, resulting in him being sent off. With the Germans down to 10 men Sweden won 3-1 with Hamrin scoring the third a minute from time. It was arguably the best individual goal of the competition. Receiving the ball he began to trundle with it towards the touchline "like a man stricken by temporary amnesia," wrote Glanville. Then he suddenly came alive, beating one man, then a second and a third before slipping the ball past German goalkeeper Herkenrath. Sweden were in the Final where they faced Brazil, but couldn't make the final step forward and lost the game 5-2.

By now Hamrin was a Fiorentina player, signed by Coach Fulvio Bernadini to replace the Brazilian winger Julinho who had returned to Brazil. Julinho’s were big boots to fill but the Swede proved a sensation in Florence, scoring 26 goals in his first season and another 26 in his second. By the time he left for Milan in 1967 he had become Fiorentina’s record scorer with 150 goals. It was only surpassed by Gabriel Batistuta in the 1999-2000 season. Sadly, Hamrin never won the capocannoniere title. Twice he finished second, to Juventus’ Sivori in 1960 and to Bologna’s Nielsen in 1964. He came close to winning Lo Scudetto with Fiorentina on three occasions, in 1959, 1960 and 1962 although he did help the Viola win the first ever Cup-Winners’ Cup in 1961 against Glasgow Rangers. In 1967 his love affair with Florence ended. He was transferred to Milan, to be reunited with Rocco, in exchange for the Brazilian star Amarildo. "They must have been crazy to let him Hamrin go, absolutely crazy," Rocco later remarked.

It was with the Rossoneri that Hamrin won most silverware, picking up another Cup-Winners’ Cup medal as well as Lo Scudetto in 1968, followed by the European Cup the following year. Hamrin, even though he was now well into his 30s, offered Milan more options and he eased the attacking burden from playmaker Gianni Rivera and striker Pierino Prati. As the late Rocco himself said: "Yes, we have Rivera and Prati but this would not be enough without Hamrin. Any team with brains in their heads could plug the centre just by bringing an extra forward back into the penalty area. But with Hamrin we have two options, wing play and centre play. All right, so Hamrin is past his best but then his best was fantastic. Show me a better winger in Italy, if not Europe."

Rocco had coached Milan’s European Cup-winning side of 1963 but reckoned the class of 1969 were better. "Hamrin, I think, tilts the balance between this team and that one," he explained after the second European Cup triumph. He was released by Milan after that terrific 4-1 victory over Ajax in Madrid’s Estadio Bernabeu and he ended his career with Napoli, finally retiring in 1971. He still lives in Florence and the now portly Hamrin can often be spotted at Fiorentina’s home matches.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,357
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
Oh, sorry, I thought that you wrote it.
And yes just to clarify - it was written in 2008 before Messi kicked into gear. But I think the sentiment holds true for that time period, as in between Maradona and Messi, he was the player most devastating at grabbing a game by the bollocks to wrestle it his way.
 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
Also, @Theon marinho was a right footed left back who liked to cut in. How do you see him providing width here?


Clip from 1974 world cup, around the 48 second mark, Marinho gives the ball away with a poor pass then fails to come back in time to prevent lato from scoring.
 

idmanager

New Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
2,843
I am not a fan of Barzagli after the first round. Banking just on a real life partnership is not my cup of tea. Especially one which was not ever dominant in the big stakes context. No UCL won. Having someone rated highly in an all time context was the game won for me. Gives Cafu the freedom while not worrying about the roaming unpredictable Boniek.

Breitner-Seedorf-Makalele is an awesome midfield and should make it relatively less difficult against Drugadona

Don't like Macherano as well in a 5-3-2 in the latter rounds. You would want someone a little more expansive while being defensively good. Breitner for example.

The game is closer than it actually could/should have been.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,357
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
Juventus reached 2 Champions League finals in 3 years between 2015 and 2017 and, unlike the Spanish giants who they came up against in both finals, that achievement was based on the rock-solid foundations of that defensive unit. It was only elsewhere on the park that Barcelona and Real Madrid had an advantage. In 2016/17, they conceded a mere 3 goals in 12 CL games en route to the final. That's outrageous given they faced Barcelona (and Suarez) twice, peak Monaco twice, Porto twice and Sevilla twice. Even when they reached the quarter finals in 2012/13, their top scorer netted 10 goals all season - which is unthinkably low for a modern day elite club - showing just how reliant Juventus have been on that back line.



That above is the best extended defensive record for any team in a top 3 league in Europe. Conceding 0.6 goals a game, season after season, with the same core there year after year - it's unprecedented.
 

Theon

Lord of the Iron Islands
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
13,292
Also, @Theon marinho was a right footed left back who liked to cut in. How do you see him providing width here?

Clip from 1974 world cup, around the 48 second mark, Marinho gives the ball away with a poor pass then fails to come back in time to prevent lato from scoring.
Marinho was an offensive fullback, he always provided width so I don't really see what there is to answer? He was right footed but still provided width on the left. Not doing anything different here at all really, just his usual attacking game.

For what it's worth Marinho was voted second in the South American Footballer of the Year awards - that's despite being up against the likes of Rivelino, Kempes etc.

He was a skillful and innovative left back who was considered at the time one of the top players at his position. He was a complete player who was strong on defense but also enjoyed joining the attack and did so very effectively, and is considered a pioneer, becoming very influential in helping the left back position evolve into what it is in today's Brazilian football.
Also no idea what that clip you posted shows by the way mate. That's a massive stretch, to just post a clip of a mistake and suggest it indicates anything at all. I may as well post a clip of Suarez biting Chiellini and suggest that he'll get sent off!
 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
Marinho was an offensive fullback, he always provided width so I don't really see what there is to answer? He was right footed but still provided width on the left. Not doing anything different here at all really, just his usual attacking game.

For what it's worth Marinho was voted second in the South American Footballer of the Year awards - that's despite being up against the likes of Rivelino, Kempes etc.



Also no idea what that clip you posted shows by the way mate. That's a massive stretch, to just post a clip of a mistake and suggest it indicates anything at all. I may as well post a clip of Suarez biting Chiellini and suggest that he'll get sent off!
The video shows his lack of pace or defensive effort in comparison to lato though, I can just as easily see hamrin doing the same here given how direct he is.

Marinho’s surging runs forward was a feature of his game that provoked as much admiration as criticism. The left flank of the defense which he so often left unprotected, especially when playing home matches at the mythical Maracana Stadium, merited the sarcastic term of “Marinho Avenue”.
It kind of alerted Brazil's national team coaches, after 74, about the convenience of relying on a left back who, although tremendously skillful and generator of many attacks from the back, could not be much relied for the defensive work
His surging runs and willingness to take a shot from outside the box endeared himself, not just to neutrals, but to an impressionable 12-year-old, living on the outskirts of Liverpool. I have vivid memories of watching Franciso play for Brazil, then the next possible chance I would get, re-enact his runs down the left-hand side. I would cut in 30 yards from the goal and unleash a shot Marinho style
Stylistically he just seems a bad fit in a side where he is required to provide width and delegate the shot taking to your awesome front three.
 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
Juventus reached 2 Champions League finals in 3 years between 2015 and 2017 and, unlike the Spanish giants who they came up against in both finals, that achievement was based on the rock-solid foundations of that defensive unit. It was only elsewhere on the park that Barcelona and Real Madrid had an advantage. In 2016/17, they conceded a mere 3 goals in 12 CL games en route to the final. That's outrageous given they faced Barcelona (and Suarez) twice, peak Monaco twice, Porto twice and Sevilla twice. Even when they reached the quarter finals in 2012/13, their top scorer netted 10 goals all season - which is unthinkably low for a modern day elite club - showing just how reliant Juventus have been on that back line.



That above is the best extended defensive record for any team in a top 3 league in Europe. Conceding 0.6 goals a game, season after season, with the same core there year after year - it's unprecedented.
While there defensive record in Serie A is excellent, vidic+rio had a much better defensive record in the PL in a more adventurous system. So while the Juve trio are good, I would personally rank them a step below Rio+Vidic.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,357
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
While there defensive record in Serie A is excellent, vidic+rio had a much better defensive record in the PL in a more adventurous system. So while the Juve trio are good, I would personally rank them a step below Rio+Vidic.
That's not true though. Even if we reduce their record down from 7 to 4 seasons to align with the United partnership's reduced longevity, the Juventus trio are still ahead:

Rio and Vidic from 2006/07 to 2009/10 - average conceded 0.66 goals a game.
Juve trio from 2012/13 to 2015/16 - average conceded 0.59 goals a game.

Whatever way we compare them, statistically the Juve boys have the records. Rio and Vidic were a brilliant partnership, hugely complementary, and solidified even more with Van der Sar behind them, but they aren't really relevant to this discussion.
 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
That's not true though. Even if we reduce their record down from 7 to 4 seasons to align with the United partnership's reduced longevity, the Juventus trio are still ahead:

Rio and Vidic from 2006/07 to 2009/10 - average conceded 0.66 goals a game.
Juve trio from 2012/13 to 2015/16 - average conceded 0.59 goals a game.

Whatever way we compare them, statistically the Juve boys have the records. Rio and Vidic were a brilliant partnership, hugely complementary, and solidified even more with Van der Sar behind them, but they aren't really relevant to this discussion.

Rio+Vidic=153 goals in 197 games=0.78
Juve Trio=192 goals in 232 games=0.83

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/rio...ium=2&wettbewerb=&liga=&verein=&pos=&status=0
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/rio...ium=2&wettbewerb=&liga=&verein=&pos=&status=0

Can you please provide a source for your numbers? They are relevant in the sense that they are the last great centreback partnership of the modern era so directly comparable with the Juve trio and their claim to greatness.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,357
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
Rio+Vidic=153 goals in 197 games=0.78
Juve Trio=192 goals in 232 games=0.83

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/rio...ium=2&wettbewerb=&liga=&verein=&pos=&status=0
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/rio...ium=2&wettbewerb=&liga=&verein=&pos=&status=0

Can you please provide a source for your numbers? They are relevant in the sense that they are the last great centreback partnership of the modern era so directly comparable with the Juve trio and their claim to greatness.
Here are their respective records:

Champions League
Chiellini and Bonucci - 0.76 goals a game conceded
Chiellini and Barzagli - 0.82 goals a game conceded
Bonucci and Barzagli - 0.92 goals a game conceded
Ferdinand and Vidic - 0.92 goals a game conceded

League
Bonucci and Barzagli - 0.61 goals a game conceded
Chiellini and Barzagli - 0.62 goals a game conceded
Chiellini and Bonucci - 0.71 goals a game conceded
Ferdinand and Vidic - 0.71 goals a game conceded

Whatever way we look at it, the Juve boys stand tall.
 
Last edited:

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,664
@Gio I really wouldn't compare Juve's feats in Seria A, as the gap between them and the others is really big.

Last year Juve conceded just 24 goals with a defensive line of Benatia, Rugani, Chielini and 37 years old Barzagli in front of 40 years old Buffon.

Just look at Italian teams record in Europe over the past few years(all results on aggregate).

11-12 EL:
Palermo bombed out against Thun
Roma lost against Slovan Bratislava
Lazio - 1-4 against Atletico.
Udinese - 1-2 against AZ.

12-13 EL:
Inter eliminated by Spurs
Lazio lost 1–3 to Fenerbahçe
Napoli were dismantled 0–5 by Viktoria Plzeň
Udinese - eliminated in a group consisting of Anzhi, Young Boys and Pool.

13-14:

Lazio lost 3–4 to Ludogorets
Napoli 2-3 to Porto
Fio 1-2 to Juve
Udinese 2-4 to Slovan Liberec

14-15
Inter 2–5 vs VfL Wolfsburg
Fio 0-5 vs Sevilla
Napoli 1-2 vs Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk
Torino 1-2 vs Zenith
Roma 1-4 vs Fiorentina

15-16
Fio 1-4 Tottenham Hotspur
Samp 2-4 Vojvodina
Napoli 1-2 Villareal
Lazio 1-4 Sparta Prague

16-17
Fio 3-4 Borussia Mönchengladbach
Sassuolo eliminated in a group consisting of Genk, Athletic Bilbao and Rapid Wien
Inter eliminated in a group consisting of Sparta Prague, Southampton and Hapoel Be'er Sheva
Roma 4-5 Lyon

17-18
Atlanta 3-4 Borussia Dortmund
Lazio 5-6 Red Bull Salzburg
Milan 1-5 Arsenal
Napoli 3-3(a) RB Leipzig

Their CL record(apart from Juve is also kinda crap):

Napoli - 3rd in group stage last year, 2-6 against Real in 16/17, 2-4 against Athletic Bilbao in Play off round, before that 3rd in a group consisting of Marseille, Arsenal and Dortmund.
Milan - 2-4 against Barca in 12/13, 1-5 against Atletico.
Roma - 1-4 against Porto in play off round, 0-4 against Real and last year 6-7 against Liverpool in the best Italian club appearance (apart of Juve) since Inter won it in 09/10

The quality in Seria A at the moment isn't all that.

In fact if you go by the stats Bayern's defence should be better than Juve's defence considering they rarely concede more than 20 goals per season and the German teams apart from Bayern do better all things considered compared to Italian teams in Europe..
 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
Here are their respective records:

Champions League
Chiellini and Bonucci - 0.76 goals a game conceded
Chiellini and Barzagli - 0.82 goals a game conceded
Bonucci and Barzagli - 0.92 goals a game conceded
Ferdinand and Vidic - 0.92 goals a game conceded

League
Bonucci and Barzagli - 0.61 goals a game conceded
Chiellini and Barzagli - 0.62 goals a game conceded
Chiellini and Bonucci - 0.71 goals a game conceded
Ferdinand and Vidic - 0.71 goals a game conceded

Whatever we look at it, the Juve boys stand tall.
Can you please provide a source for this?
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,357
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
Can you please provide a source for this?
That's all transfermarkt.

Pretty conclusive - and shoots down the point about the Juve boys only cutting it in Serie A when their CL credentials are rock solid.
 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
That's all transfermarkt.

Pretty conclusive - and shoots down the point about the Juve boys only cutting it in Serie A when their CL credentials are rock solid.
Rio+Vidic=153 goals in 197 games=0.78
Juve Trio=192 goals in 232 games=0.83

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/rio...ium=2&wettbewerb=&liga=&verein=&pos=&status=0
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/rio...ium=2&wettbewerb=&liga=&verein=&pos=&status=0

Can you please provide a source for your numbers? They are relevant in the sense that they are the last great centreback partnership of the modern era so directly comparable with the Juve trio and their claim to greatness.
If you click on the link above, it will show rio+vidic at 0.78 whereas the juve trio at 0.83? Not sure why you are getting different results although I suppose taking out all other competitions might be having an impact but it seems like that is being done just to manipulate the numbers.

As I posted above, they pretty much lost to almost every decent side they faced in the UCL and did not really achieve much.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,664
Juventus reached 2 Champions League finals in 3 years between 2015 and 2017 and, unlike the Spanish giants who they came up against in both finals, that achievement was based on the rock-solid foundations of that defensive unit. It was only elsewhere on the park that Barcelona and Real Madrid had an advantage. In 2016/17, they conceded a mere 3 goals in 12 CL games en route to the final. That's outrageous given they faced Barcelona (and Suarez) twice, peak Monaco twice, Porto twice and Sevilla twice. Even when they reached the quarter finals in 2012/13, their top scorer netted 10 goals all season - which is unthinkably low for a modern day elite club - showing just how reliant Juventus have been on that back line.



That above is the best extended defensive record for any team in a top 3 league in Europe. Conceding 0.6 goals a game, season after season, with the same core there year after year - it's unprecedented.
Whilst those numbers might look impressive if you compare to Dante/Boateng CB pairing in 12/13 the latter might be even better, yet nobody would pick them in all time sense mate. Dante and Boateng led the defensive line that conceded 2 goals in 7 games in the knockout stage against Arsenal, Dortmund, Barcelona and Juventus - much better sides than what Juve faced.



^^ their record in all comps.

I'm not sure how the Juve trio somehow reached all time status in such short span.

They were obviously excellent players individually and as a unit, but Rio and Vidic as a unit and individually are tier or two above and the Juve defence isn't really the best of its generation - Atletico's is by a big big margin.

Both Barca and Real swept them aside rather easily in both finals and most of the issues in both final games were exactly in defence.

Compare it to Atletico's team in finals and how they contained those Real sides.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,357
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
As I posted above, they pretty much lost to almost every decent side they faced in the UCL and did not really achieve much.
Come on - it's pretty clear how heavily reliant they were on that defence. The backbone of that team has always been that defence. It's other parts of the team that have let them down when it came to getting over the final line in Europe. For example, in their first foray into the CL in 2012/13 their top scorer got 10 goals for the season, which is almost pathetic in the modern elite club game where most top strikers at top clubs are rattling in 30-40 goals. Their Champions League record would have been so much worse without such a reliable defensive unit to call upon when the going got tough.
 
Last edited:

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,664
As for the game, think I'd rather agree with Edgar on this one.

Would've preferred a more of a goalscoring #10 in MJJ's side who would slot right in against that 5-3-2. Cafu on the right side also helps a lot against Lizarazu/Boniek flank and generally is a tad more defensive set up which would help Theon being more heavy up top with Rivaldo/Batigol/Maradona trio nicking a goal more.
 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
Come on - it's pretty clear how heavily reliant they were on that defence. The backbone of that team has always been that defence. It's other parts of the team that have let them down when it came to getting over the final line in Europe. For example, in their first foray into the CL in 2012/13 their top scorer got 10 goals for the season, which is almost pathetic in the modern elite club game where most top strikers at top clubs are rattling in 30-40 goals. Their Champions League record would have been so much worse without such a reliable defensive unit to call upon when the going got tough.
And the midfield, they probably had the best midfield in the competition with pogba,vidal,marchisio and pirlo.

Who are even the decent strikers in serie a during this time? Icardi?

As for the game, think I'd rather agree with Edgar on this one.

Would've preferred a more of a goalscoring #10 in MJJ's side who would slot right in against that 5-3-2. Cafu on the right side also helps a lot against Lizarazu/Boniek flank and generally is a tad more defensive set up which would help Theon being more heavy up top with Rivaldo/Batigol/Maradona trio nicking a goal more.
What about hamrin vs marinho? Or the fact that theon has machesrano in midfield who played his prime in defense?

I can see my side controlling the midfield here and late runs from both brietner and seedorf causing havoc for theon.
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,225
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
Personally I don't rate the modern Juve trio as highly in an all-time sense as some. I think just pulling the GA stats in isolation of context can't prove much. As enigma showed the gap between Juve and the rest of serie A is probably one of the biggest gaps in that league's history.

Also we have to keep on mind other factors besides opponents like tactics and teammates. For me that first Juve CL final was more the result of their midfield than the back three. I have a Juve supporting friend and I was constantly hearing about Vidal, Marchisio, Pirlo and Pogba in midfield. That midfield was crucial in controlling games. And also they had Buffon, probably the best keeper of the last 20 years as well.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,357
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
I am not a fan of Barzagli after the first round.
Think he's really under-rated personally. Arguably the purest defender of the trio, just gets the job done, no frills and no fuss. Interestingly, his Serie A media ratings are worth a mention:

2011/12 - 6.48
2012/13 - 6.35
2013/14 - 6.32
2014/15 - 6.49
2015/16 - 6.52

Obviously not as tough an era than what others faced so I'm not saying he's as good, but think those are better ratings than what Cannavaro got and pretty much on par with some of the big hitters like Ferrara and Nesta fwiw.