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P&G Draft - QF: MJJ vs Theon
- Thread starter Physiocrat
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
CAFU: THE BORN WINNER WHO BECAME THE MOST COMPLETE FULL-BACK OF HIS TIME
Jamie Carragher’s light-hearted jibe at Gary Neville over his career as a full-back on an episode of Monday Night Football, where he claims that no young footballer aspires to grow up and become a full-back, wasn’t too far from the truth. A position whose importance has often been neglected, it isn’t always the most fascinating prospect - but in Brazil, the land where all forms of football are beautiful, it is a different story.
Since gaining an international reputation for their aptitude in the sport, they’ve produced the world’s best in the role. Carlos Alberto and Marinho Chagas dominated the flanks in the 1970s, Flamengo pair Leandro and Júnior earned that status in the 1980s, Maicon and Dani Alves carried the superiority in the 21st century, while Marcelo and Alex Sandro are modern-day heroes of the role. In the middle of these generations, however, came two players who revolutionized the role; one being the powerful and adventurous Roberto Carlos, and the other being the iconic Cafu, who would become Brazil’s most capped footballer ever.
Born in 1970 – the same year Brazil won their third World Cup and became the sport’s most successful nation – Cafu cited his birth year as his inspiration for becoming a footballer. Growing up in the rough streets of Jardim Irene – one of the poorest regions in the city – taught him to never give up. It was a lesson he carried throughout life, as local giants São Paulo FC snapped him up as an 18-year-old following a series of rejections from some of the country’s other big clubs, including Palmeiras and Santos.
This was Cafu, in development.
Cafu owes a lot of his success to the legendary Telê Santana, the revolutionary Brazilian coach who is renowned for bringing the attacking mind back to Samba football, spectacularly displayed in Brazil’s iconic 1982 World Cup side. His methods invited Cafu to switch from being a right midfielder to a right-back - which was one of the most innovative moves in Brazilian football history.
Santana’s influence gave São Paulo a gem as Cafu’s ability to burst down the right side provided an extra, effective outlet in attack. Cafu settled in well and earned a surprise call-up to the national team in 1990, which would commence a historic career of national service to his beloved Brazil.
Two years later, he cemented himself as one of the world’s finest full-backs in a matured display as São Paulo dispatched Palmeiras 4-2 in the first-leg of the final in Brazil’s top tier. He was involved in all four goals, scoring one – a stunning volley with his weaker left foot – assisting two and winning the penalty for the fourth. A week later they overcame Johan Cruyff’s Barcelona, the champions of Europe, to win the Intercontinental Cup as Cafu’s honours list continued to grow.
By the time he turned 24, he already had two Copa Libertadores, Intercontinental Cups and Campeonato Paulista honours to his name, around 30 national caps, and was building a great reputation for his exploits down the right flank. Although he lacked finesse to his crosses, he was well-renowned for his dangerous overlapping runs, which offered another outlet down the right flank and made São Paulo such a potent attacking force. It bore fruit as he was given a spot in the squad for the Brazil side travelling to the United States for the 1994 World Cup, where he would achieve his greatest success to date.
In a side filled with champions from around the globe Brazil were favorites to go all the way. Still only 24, Cafu played second fiddle to the more experienced Jorginho as Brazil would make it all the way to the final against Italy. As fate would have it, he would spend more time on the pitch as Jorginho pulled up within the first 20 minutes, giving Cafu the chance to strut his stuff. His side would keep a clean sheet and subsequently overcome the Azzurri on penalties to win their fourth World Cup.
This was Cafu, in progression.
Gone were the days when he struggled to adapt to his defensive duties or plug-in pin-point crosses, and in came a period where he was amongst the best footballers on the planet.
In 1997, with his status as Brazil’s first choice right-back now cemented, he would taste more success on the international scene at the 1997 Copa América in Bolivia. Brazil steamrolled their opposition match after match, and the now-ripe Cafu earned a return to Europe with Roma which gave a greater audience a glimpse of his South American flair down the right flank.
If Cafu’s South American education under coaches like Santana and Parreira had taught him a lot about attacking football, he was about to enter a whole different world in Rome. The coach Zdeněk Zeman has always made good use of full-backs, and this was perfect for Cafu as his liking for darting forward was utilised perfectly.
Following his season in Rome, Cafu went into the ’98 World Cup in which Brazil would be at their sparkling best again. The attacking trifecta of Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Bebeto led their charge, but right at the start of the tournament, it was Cafu who did the job at the other end of the pitch. Playing under the shining sun with the scores level at 1-1 against Scotland, it was Cafu’s strike that gave Brazil the win in their opening game.
Cafu was a permanent fixture in the side, playing in every game as as Brazil marched through the group and knockout rounds, overcoming Chile and Denmark in the round of 16 and quarter-finals, but Cafu’s successive bookings meant that he would miss the game against Holland in the semi-finals.
The final in Saint-Denis was a completely different story as France, led by Zinedine Zidane, outclassed Brazil in one of the most one-sided finals in World Cup history. The damning result saw Brazil in heartbreak, but Cafu would head back to Rome, where he and Fabio Capello would make history following the departure of Zeman.
This was Cafu, in transition.
Capello’s first season saw their rivals across the city claim the title in stunning fashion as Lazio, with the impressive Sven-Göran Eriksson and Pavel Nedvěd, triumphed over Juventus by a point. The following year, however, saw a brilliant Roma side earn what they thoroughly deserved.
Cafu was part of a great attacking outfit as Capello’s effective use of his forwards Francesco Totti, Vincenzo Montella and top-scorer Gabriel Batistuta saw them beat Juventus to the title by two points with a mammoth 68 goals. Cafu was moved into a more advanced wing-back role and became one of the most important cogs in the team, along with Frenchman Vincent Candela down the left wing.
Running up and down the flank, galloping past opponents with speed and ferocity, was the norm at the Stadio Olimpico as Cafu’s reputation continued to grow. A fearsome sight on the ball, he made overlapping runs at every opportunity, while his partnership with his attackers continued to improve as the season went on.
In the summer preceding the title win, Roma had splashed out a massive £50 million, bringing in Walter Samuel in defence, Emerson to rampage around the middle of the park, and Batistuta to put the ball in the net. But it was Cafu, who for 90 minutes every week roamed up and down the pitch to strengthen both halves, who was critical in helping them win their first Scudetto in 18 years.
The following year would be the grandest event in football, the 2002 World Cup, which would be 103-cap Cafu’s third and first as captain. Scolari used Cafu just as effectively as Capello, with his back-three system bringing the best out of his captain, who was used primarily as a wing-back. Once again, Cafu’s efficiency and energy were utilised as he played every second of the campaign – exactly what’s expected of a captain – and his troops charged through the competition to throw away the demons of France 98.
The final against Germany, a team that hardly featured any world beaters bar Michael Ballack, was a tense affair. This German side was unlike any of their predecessors and stumbled their way to the final, where their defensive resistance was halted by the heroics of Ronaldo. The Player of the Tournament scored his seventh and eighth of the finals and etched his name in history, giving Brazil their fifth world title.
In what was already a historic night for Cafu, where he became the first player in the history of the sport to participate in three successive World Cup finals, he had the proud moment of hoisting the prestigious trophy closer to the skies. While he did so, he didn’t forget home, having engraved the words “100% Jardim Irene” on his match-worn shirt. This significant image is still on display all over Brazil, as the captain became an inspiration all over the country.
This was Cafu, an icon.
Barcelona, Manchester United, Inter Milan and PSV were all taken apart, and for the first half, Liverpool seemed like a walk in the park, with Milan going into half-time in Istanbul with one hand on the trophy. But their six-minute collapse threw away glory, as a Steven Gerrard-led Liverpool hoisted the trophy on a dramatic night.
The Rossoneri were only good enough to challenge in Serie A but lacked the extra spark to capture another Scudetto. Nevertheless, just two years later, Carlo Ancelotti’s European pedigree was on complete display again, as Milan took apart the finest across the continent to make it to the final, once again against Liverpool, offering Cafu another shot at redemption.
With the experience of Paolo Maldini, Alessandro Costacurta, Filippo Inzaghi and Cafu himself amongst their ranks, they strolled to a win, with Inzaghi scoring in his typical poacher’s style to give Milan their seventh European honour, and for Cafu, a moment of personal satisfaction as he achieved everything he had dreamt of so late in his esteemed career.
In between this came the World Cup, where he had the armband and a nailed-down starting spot at right-back again – a great achievement for a 36-year-old. France and Zidane would be their nemesis once more, as Cafu bowed out at a stage that wasn’t the final for the first time, albeit with his head held very high.
A record-breaking 142 caps meant that he was the country’s most capped footballer ever and he has every reason to be proud of his career. Two Serie A titles, two Italian and European Super Cups, a Club World Cup and entries into both the Roma and AC Milan Halls of Fame were added in his time in Italy, and they are moralities he can be proud of.
He’s an equally classy figure off the pitch, giving back to his beloved Jardim Irene by opening the Cafu Foundation, a centre for sports and recreational activities which looks to give underprivileged kids and families a new lease of life. He is Brazil through and through. A winner, a role model, an icon and a gentleman, Cafu embodies the spirit of sport and the spirit of his country.
This is Cafu, a legend.
To be fair it doesn't really compare their respective World Cups in 1998 either. Rivaldo had an excellent tournament at France '98, scoring 3 goals and getting 2 assists, from a deeper left-sided position; whereas Zidane was largely posted missing until the final. I agree that game is why Zidane is remembered so fondly from that generation of players that peaked around the turn of the century, but Brazil were broken for that final after Ronaldo's fit and it's not really a fair representation of the tournament, never mind the era. I also agree that Rob Smyth under-rates Zidane's big game impact a little there in his piece.
Even though Maradona rates Vierchowod's defending highly, he used to tear strips into the guy. In 16 games against Vierchowod, he scored 8 goals. That is hugely impressive for a playermaker who started fairly deep and in a majorly defensive and competitive league like Serie A in the 1980s where the goals-per-game average was down around 2.0 goals per game or less. And it doesn't count the countless chances he created carving up the opposition, before usually getting binned by some agricultural tackle on the edge of the box.
This is where context is inportant, half those goals were penalties and came when vierchowod was playing for sampdoria with no help defensivelud
It's a different story here with the legendayl scirea as a partner against whom Maradona has a poor record.
JUVENTUS BACKLINE
Thought I would draft this post to respond to some of the criticisms in this thread about the Juventus back line - my honest assessment is they've proven themselves as the best modern defensive partnership and some of the comments seem completely undeserved. I think it plays down genuine achievements over almost a decade of football (in the case of Chiellini especially). Note I would never suggest that the modern three at Juve' are at the same level as the likes of Baresi, Scirea or Bergomi, but IMO they have proven themselves to be world-class and their achievements deserve an element of recognition.
In terms of the point around modern Serie A - I can understand some criticism of the league but personally don't think it's justification to completely play down their records (which are historic). You can only defend against what you're up against and I think just watching Chiellini / Bonnuci / Barzagli makes it apparent that they’re an extremely complimentary old-school defensive partnership.
Now obviously they are helped by having played with some wonderful midfielders, such as Pirlo, Marchisio or Pogba, but at the same time I don't see how anyone can watch Juventus play across that period and not recognise how central the defense is to the success of the side - yes they have had excellent midfielders, but the defense has been the foundation of the side.
As a final point they've had some fantastic performances both in the Champions League and Internationally (in a poor Italy side) which shows they can and have done it outside the Serie A context.
They began playing together as a defensive unit in the 2011/12 season and I have compiled some stats from across that timeline to showcase particular achievements:
Serie AThe Guardian said:
- Six Serie A titles in a row (most ever consecutive titles)
- 49 consecutive matches unbeaten including the entire the 2011/12 season
- Highest ever Serie A points total with 102 points in 2013/14
- Over the six years they played together they have averaged one goal conceded every 1.7 games (or 0.59 goals each game) - the best consecutive record of any defence in Serie A, La Liga or the Premiership ever
Goal.com said:
Champions League
- Runner up in the 2014/15 CL conceding 7 goals in 12 games – despite playing two matches each against Atletico Madrid, Real Madrid, Borussia Dortmund and Monaco
- Runner up in the 2016/17 final conceding 3 goals in 12 games – including holding clean sheets both home and away to Barcelona.
BBC Juventus 0 – 0 Barcelona said:
International for Italy
- Runner up in Euro 2012 including a defensive masterclass against Spain, then knocking out Croatia, England and Germany en route to the final.
- Defensively excellent in Euro 2016 conceding 2 goals in 5 games with matches against Belgium, Germany and Spain
BBC – Italy 2 – 0 Spain said:
The biggest reason for the success of this defensive partnership is that each member compliments the other and brings something different to the back-line:Sqawka – Italy 2 – 0 Belgium said:
ANDREA BARZAGLI: TACTICAL TERMINATOR
Four Time Serie A Team of the year (second most ever along with Pirlo)
Position: Right Centre BackFour Time Serie A Team of the year (second most ever along with Pirlo)
Main function: Providing resilience on the right flank.
Not as brilliantly eye-catching as Bonucci nor as cynically effective as Chiellini, Barzagli is certainly the most understated member of BBC yet at the age of 36 he remains hugely influential. Barzagli is not a flashy player but he excels in the art of defending, using his intelligence and experience to shut down attacking avenues time and again down the right flank.
The Guardian said:
LEONARDO BONUCCI: THE MODERN LIBERO
Serie A Footballer of the Year (only defender ever along with Cannavaro)
Serie A Footballer of the Year (only defender ever along with Cannavaro)
Position: Centre Back/Sweeper
Main function: Covering defender and launch attacking moves from defence
The undisputed king when it comes to distribution from defence, Leonardo Bonucci has firmly established himself as the world’s leading ball-playing central defender. Bonucci possesses the passing range of an elite central midfielder and his raking crossfield passes have become an important counter-attacking weapon for both Juventus and Italy.
His passing numbers from this season highlight this as he completed more passes (1,818) than any Juventus player despite playing only 29 games, while his average pass length of 24m is higher than all of the club’s outfield players. Acting as the middleman in the Juventus back line, Bonucci is essentially the sweeper both in front and behind the other two and therefore ranks top for interceptions (60) as well.
TacticalCalcio said:
GIORGIO CHIELLINI: THE MASTER OF THE DARK ARTS
Three time Serie A Defender of the Year (second only to Nesta)
Position: Left Centre BackThree time Serie A Defender of the Year (second only to Nesta)
Main function: The no-nonsense destroyer
This is what a central defender should look like. While Barzagli is the composed one and Bonucci is the ball-player, Chiellini is the archetypal defensive destroyer and a throwback to the old school defender of a bygone era. Standing at 6’2, Chiellini is the most imposing, powerful presence in Juventus’ defence and he simply relishes the art of defending, getting stuck into challenges and excelling at the dark arts.
Despite making only 21 appearances in Serie A this season, Chiellini made more blocks (14) than any other Juventus players and the joint-highest number of clearances (101). But while it is his defensive play that Chiellini is renowned for, he is far more than just an old fashioned brute, providing Juventus with left-footed balance at the back and averaging an 87% pass accuracy rate.
Would recommend reading that before voting given some of the comments in the thread (also.. it took ages to compile 
).
@BlackShark_80 @Don Alfredo @Himannv not sure if the criticisms of the Juventus backline (which were way over the top in my opinion) influenced your vote - if so I've tried to address them in a response.
). @BlackShark_80 @Don Alfredo @Himannv not sure if the criticisms of the Juventus backline (which were way over the top in my opinion) influenced your vote - if so I've tried to address them in a response.
Nah, you can't hide behind Viercho having weaker teammates as an excuse considering Maradona never played with Rivaldo, Batistuta, Cafu or Schweinsteiger.
I think ultimately there's just far more goal threat in our side and I can't see any way that you'll manage to stifle all of them. Batistuta hit 85 in 117 games during peak 90’s Serie A and 54 goals in 77 games for Argentina - that's an unbelivable record, and on paper he's our worst attacker!
Rivaldo has the most lethal left-peg in football at the height of his powers was the best player in world football. He led Barcelona to domestic success as top scorer from the inside left position, and internationally was the player of the tournament in both the '99 Copa and '02 World Cup.
Then you have Maradona.
In contract that Juve back-line has a real life factual record of shutting on Luis Suarez, with just 1 goal in 6 games scored.
Excuse me? Of course I can defend it. Maradona teammates were far better than vierchowod, in fact I am pretty sure almost everyone here can't name a defender he played with. When he was with scirea, the match ended 1-1.
There is a reason why Maradona was so complementary about him.
Scirea also has a real life factual record of shutting out Maradona and same with vierchowod and Batistuta.
My side also doesnth have a defender with a proven record of ignoring their defending duties and costing the team.
As well as not having a functioning left side.
I quite like the Juventus backline. I think they work quite well together and I don't agree that Barzagli was the weak link as some suggested. He was the best of the trio at one point by my reckoning. I did like his Scirea and Vierchowod pairing as well though, so it's basically two defenses that I like for different reasons.Would recommend reading that before voting given some of the comments in the thread (also.. it took ages to compile
@BlackShark_80 @Don Alfredo @Himannv not sure if the criticisms of the Juventus backline (which were way over the top in my opinion) influenced your vote - if so I've tried to address them in a response.
My vote is swayed more by his midfield and general quality overall (with the exception of Suarez as I said earlier). I like the combination of Breitner, Seedorf, and Makelele and for me they are better than the Mascherano and Schweinsteiger combo. In all honesty I quite liked your team in round 1 and voted for them but expected you to reinforce your midfield for this round.
You really can't when it the same breath you then talk up Scirea's record against Maradona's Napoli, when Scirea played for a far better side than Diego did. I'll respond to that after, as Diego has taken both Scirea and Viercho apart - the head to head is nothing at all like Suarez's shut outs.
As for the second part.. it's taking draft arguments to the absolute extreme. Marinho Chagas is known as one of the best left backs to come from South America, and I've never seen him criticised in the way you're doing before.
He was voted second in the South American Footballer of the Year awards (a huge achievement for a fullback given the competition) and was part of a solid Brazilian defence in '74 which conceeded just 4 goals in 7 matches.
Here's the opinion of an actual Brazilian poster MJJ:
You did an excellent job with Suarez vs the Juve defence. At this rate, nobody is gonna pick Suarez for a while againWould recommend reading that before voting given some of the comments in the thread (also.. it took ages to compile
@BlackShark_80 @Don Alfredo @Himannv not sure if the criticisms of the Juventus backline (which were way over the top in my opinion) influenced your vote - if so I've tried to address them in a response.
I like Barzagli the most, maybe because he did prove himself outside of his comfort side, when he was a key player in a title winning side in Germany. In contrast, Bonucci looked woefully out of his depth at Milan last season.What swayed me was Hamrin vs your left side. MJJ did really well in portraying Marinho like an Aldi version of Marcelo. Don't know if he is that, can't say too much about him. However, MJJ did make a compelling case that he will leave your left side exposed to the threat of Hamrin, who I rate to be too much to handle for Chiellini.
Equally, I rate Diego to be too good for Makelele. Man, this is so hard to decide
When a keeper punches a world class fullback footballer for not followimg tactics and leaving his area and the manager takes the side of thr keeper it says something.
I have also posted comments from Brazilian footballers and articles on him.
Don't think this is borne out with the facts I'm afraid. Maradona's Napoli played Vierchowod's Sampdoria 16 times and the record was dead even, with 5 wins for each side. Samp gave them a few skelpings over the years as well. 8 goals in those games is mightily impressive given it was such a ruthless and cynical league.
Scirea is obviously an incredible footballer, but even he was regularly beaten by the great man and just couldn't keep up with such unparalleled ball-carrying ability:
And if you look at them together, they couldn't do much to stop him there either:
Either way, he's got the upper hand. And when you throw in Batistuta and Rivaldo burying any chances that come their way, then it looks like we are well set here.
Unlucky Scirea mate.
Agree with both yourself and @Himannv on Barzagli being the purest defenders out of all three of them. He's not as highly rated by most fans, but that's a reflection of the fact he usually relies on his positioning as opposed to eye-catching tackles (as reflected in the statistics).You did an excellent job with Suarez vs the Juve defence. At this rate, nobody is gonna pick Suarez for a while again
What swayed me was Hamrin vs your left side. MJJ did really well in portraying Marinho like an Aldi version of Marcelo. Don't know if he is that, can't say too much about him. However, MJJ did make a compelling case that he will leave your left side exposed to the threat of Hamrin, who I rate to be too much to handle for Chiellini.
On the latter point - that's completely what I'm talking about with MJJ's arguments
. The hatchet-job on Chagas is unjust and purely done to get votes. Chagas was rated as the second best footballer in all of South America and twice also won the Bola de Prata for best in position at left back. Look at the opinion I posted above from a Brazillian poster who has actually watched him play, it's light-years away from the presentation put forward by MJJ. Some other evidence which was found to support his argument:
Man, I don't know about these lists. Many names I have never heard of.Agree with both yourself and @Himannv on Barzagli being the purest defenders out of all three of them. He's not as highly rated by most fans, but that's a reflection of the fact he usually relies on his positioning as opposed to eye-catching tackles (as reflected in the statistics).
On the latter point - that's completely what I'm talking about with MJJ's arguments
Some other evidence which was found to support his argument:
The common factor in both lists I found was that Eyzaguirre is suspiciously close to Marinho, and I would absolutely expect Hamrin to roast that dude
I believe you that Marinho was not an average fullback, I just think that you need an exceptional one (in a defensive sense) to stop Hamrin.
Will have to think about it again while I am having lunch. I must go now
Fair enough.
I think those credentials are rock solid and his award recognition is more substantive than anything MJJ has mustered.
Hamrin vs Marinho and Chiellini doesn’t seem like any bigger route to goal than Maradona, Rivaldo and Batistuta imo.
Firstly, on Chagas. I wouldn't be pretending he's the world's best defender if he was rooted in a back four. But he's playing wing-back, with the support of a back three behind him and two defensively solid central midfielders. The role is designed to both get the best out of him and to mask any perceived defensive weaknesses he has. Not only that, he has Chiellini, a pure left-sided defender behind him, who has excelled at club level, in Europe and internationally - crucially at left back, left centre back in a three and centre-back in a four. He is proven in all of those roles. Hell even Messi has played twice on the right of the attack against Chiellini and drew a blank both times - no goals or assists. Regardless of how you rate Chiellini, he's got a pretty good record against players even more threatening than Hamrin.You did an excellent job with Suarez vs the Juve defence. At this rate, nobody is gonna pick Suarez for a while again
What swayed me was Hamrin vs your left side. MJJ did really well in portraying Marinho like an Aldi version of Marcelo. Don't know if he is that, can't say too much about him. However, MJJ did make a compelling case that he will leave your left side exposed to the threat of Hamrin, who I rate to be too much to handle for Chiellini.
Equally, I rate Diego to be too good for Makelele. Man, this is so hard to decide
Secondly, Chagas boasts some serious quality. Let's deal in facts again. He came 2nd in the South American Footballer of the Year award. Now, the only other full-backs - never mind just left-backs - to come in the top two of either the South American Footballer of the Year, the European Footballer of the Year and then the effectively merged (in terms of openness and player movement) Ballon D'Or from the mid-1990s on are Giacinto Facchetti and Roberto Carlos. So we have Chagas in a select group of three there alongside two of the top five wing-backs of all time, in my view. Heady company indeed.
So ultimately when you consider the tactical set-up designed to get the best out of him and his actual quality, he's miles from the weakness he has been painted out to be here, and actually poses some proper flank-dominating threat there that will cause plenty of problems to the opposition.
What was the average finishing position of both? Only here will sampdoria be thought of as these great opponents.Don't think this is borne out with the facts I'm afraid. Maradona's Napoli played Vierchowod's Sampdoria 16 times and the record was dead even, with 5 wins for each side. Samp gave them a few skelpings over the years as well. 8 goals in those games is mightily impressive given it was such a ruthless and cynical league.
Scirea is obviously an incredible footballer, but even he was regularly beaten by the great man and just couldn't keep up with such unparalleled ball-carrying ability:
And if you look at them together, they couldn't do much to stop him there either:
Either way, he's got the upper hand. And when you throw in Batistuta and Rivaldo burying any chances that come their way, then it looks like we are well set here.
Unlucky Scirea mate.
Anyways having scirea and a man Maradona himself described as his toughest opponent seems good enough to me.
Secondly, Batistuta has a poor record against vierchowod and Maradona against scirea so so am happy with that
Why did chsrgas not play for Brazil again if he was that good? He was an attacker converted to a full back, by his own admission, who cut inside too much and left his area.
Irrelevant. Every full-back was converted there from another position. Very few full-backs actually start their careers there, as they go through the youth system they usually either drop back from further up the flank or go out wide from a more central role.
Anyway, do we really think McGrain is going to shut out Rivaldo? Being a Scot, I rate McGrain highly and have championed him on here before. But there's little evidence of him playing against absolute top tier opposition. It's an unknown, whereas every other defender on the park has solid credentials against the very best attackers. I'd struggle to remember who the best left-sided attacker was in the Scottish game in the 1970s, after Lennox of course who was McGrain's team-mate. Certainly weren't any Brazilians knocking about the SPL then.
Can't even recall who Rangers' left winger was in the 1970s. There's basically nobody to prove he will cut it against a Ballon D'Or winning Tour De Force like Rivaldo. Frankly, that's as big a concern as any other flank battle on the park.
Oh, someone changed his vote
Agreed. This thread has three pages in it now (with a lot of content) and has been getting bumped pretty much constantly, but there hasn't been a vote in about three hours. Not a great indication for the new sub-forum at all.
Respect your opinion and thanks for clarifying - it's always good to get reasons from voters, nothing more irritating that getting pumped in a match and having no idea why.
I do disagree with the above though, for me I'd rate Schweinsteiger as the best midfielder on the park (if you don't consider Maradona a midfielder). The only one I'd have in the same tier is Breitner, but I think over their respective body of work Schweinsteiger achieved a slightly higher level. In my opinion he's the most complete midfielder of the last twenty years or so, outstanding defensively but also a genuine playmaker and asset on the ball.
Internationally he was brilliant with Germany in both 2010 and 2014 and was undoubtedly the best player in the final, where he was effective in shutting down Messi. I don't think there's really any other midfielder than combined the defensive and possession aspects of their game so completely as he did.
Would highly recommend this video by the way if you ever get a chance or are bored on the train! One of my favourites on all youtube:
Feck sake who switched for MJJ. Looks like this is over
Ultimately I think there's too much attacking power here:
GABRIEL BATISTUTA
- Dominated Serie A and boasts a superb international goalscoring record
- Bound to finish any chances that come his way from such quality service
RIVALDO
- Ballon D'Or winner who shone brightest in the same inside-left channel he has here, up against a relatively unproven McGrain
DIEGO MARADONA
- Has taken Scirea and Vierchowod to the cleaners several times - two of the greatest ever defenders.
Compare that to the blunted Suarez up the other end, there should only be one outcome.
GABRIEL BATISTUTA
- Dominated Serie A and boasts a superb international goalscoring record
- Bound to finish any chances that come his way from such quality service
RIVALDO
- Ballon D'Or winner who shone brightest in the same inside-left channel he has here, up against a relatively unproven McGrain
DIEGO MARADONA
- Has taken Scirea and Vierchowod to the cleaners several times - two of the greatest ever defenders.
Compare that to the blunted Suarez up the other end, there should only be one outcome.
OMG another switch!
Crazy ending to this match!
Crazy ending to this match!
We were winning that about five minutes ago, then losing it about 90 seconds before the poll closed, and somehow it flipped again
A draft game for the ages
A draft game for the ages
Well done @MJJ
Match was extremely close which I think was a lot to do with the quality and tenacity of your arguments.
Match was extremely close which I think was a lot to do with the quality and tenacity of your arguments.
Tight match. Some extra time goals probably settled it in the end.
The vote low before the sub-forum switch for this draft was 28 in your and Ecstatic's game. The highest was in MJJ and P-Nut at 43. This is another 28 game. We should watch closely in the SF and Final.
Edit - Tuppet's had 25 votes
Defensive upgrade must be a priority for Theon! Current D has pulled all it's weight.
My guess is they'll upgrade Rivaldo to Eusebio
My guess is they'll upgrade Rivaldo to Eusebio
Yeah I think it's clear that the games are not getting the same level of coverage, which is a shame.The vote low before the sub-forum switch for this draft was 28 in your and Ecstatic's game. The highest was in MJJ and P-Nut at 43. This is another 28 game. We should watch closely in the SF and Final.
Edit - Tuppet's had 25 votes
No the Don switched a while ago.
There were two switches at the end, one of me and one for you as well.
Theon and Gio always have a trick or two up their sleeve to somehow win in the last minutes. Spooky ...fishing
...fishingFine team you assembled @MJJ and well argued case. Defensively rock solid and a tremendously hard to break down midfield.
Nothing wrong with that opinion, but personally I'd pick Breitner as the best one. Schweiny was probably better defensively, well, both were outstanding, but offensively Breitner was simply on another level, both in terms of goalscoring (significantly) and playmaking (a bit less so)
Congratulations on the win!