P&G Draft - QF: MJJ vs Theon

[Theon]

What about hamrin vs marinho? Or the fact that theon has machesrano in midfield who played his prime in defense?

I can see my side controlling the midfield here and late runs from both brietner and seedorf causing havoc for theon.

There's absolutely no chance you're controlling the midfield, absolutely no chance. You don't have any possession players and the technical quality of Maradona, Rivaldo, Bonnuci and Schweinsteiger should ensure a solid grasp on the game. Your team is set up to soak and counter IMO, with that defence and solid midfield.

I can't see any way you could play expansively and go toe-to-toe with Batistuta, Rivaldo and Maradona - honest assessment is you would concede significantly more than you would score.

Meh, disagree completely on Mascherano. He's the best midfield ball-winner of his era and he's proved his midfield credentials for Liverpool, Barcelona and the Argentine national side. I'd put his '14 World Cup performances up in the higher echelons of midfield performances, he was titanic.

Agree with this from Joga in a previous game - he's not a fancy name but that's not what football or drafts are about. Question is can he do the job he's tasked with which is to keep it tight defensively, win possession and lay it off to Maradona or Schweinsteiger? Of course he can do that. He's brilliant at it.

I have Mascherano playing the holding role and there have been few DMs as impressive as him in the last decade or so alongside Gattuso. Provides the perfect platform for Schuster & Suárez to express their talents.

 

[Moby]

Those Juve defenders aren't anywhere near the likes of Nesta, Ferrara and Cannavaro. There's no question that they are a weakness at this stage, and in this pool anyway. Lucky here to not face top tier central attackers, against a GOAT names they would have nowhere to hide.

 

[MJJ]

There's absolutely no chance you're controlling the midfield, absolutely no chance. You don't have any possession players and the technical quality of Maradona, Rivaldo, Bonnuci and Schweinsteiger should ensure a solid grasp on the game. Your team is set up to soak and counter IMO, with that defence and solid midfield.

I can't see any way you could play expansively and go toe-to-toe with Batistuta, Rivaldo and Maradona - honest assessment is you would concede significantly more than you would score.

Meh, disagree completely on Mascherano. He's the best midfield ball-winner of his era and he's proved his midfield credentials for Liverpool, Barcelona and the Argentine national side. I'd put his '14 World Cup performances up in the higher echelons of midfield performances, he was titanic.

Agree with this from Joga in a previous game - he's not a fancy name but that's not what football or drafts are about. Question is can he do the job he's tasked with which is to keep it tight defensively, win possession and lay it off to Maradona or Schweinsteiger? Of course he can do that. He's brilliant at it.

Only one of them plays in midfield? And if you are talking about the technical quality of Bonnuci what about scirea who is his superior in every possible way?

I would be suprised if he has played 50 games in midfield for barca since his transfer, and yeah he was pretty awesome in '14 world cup but argentina did not really control possession or dominate the games.

I have brietner and seedorf who are very good at winning the ball and retaining the ball, your front trio as awesome as they are will not be helping out defensively. Whereas everyone in my side will be putting in a shift starting from suarez.

 

[Theon]

I would be suprised if he has played 50 games in midfield for barca since his transfer, and yeah he was pretty awesome in '14 world cup but argentina did not really control possession or dominate the games.

I have brietner and seedorf who are very good at winning the ball and retaining the ball, your front trio as awesome as they are will not be helping out defensively. Whereas everyone in my side will be putting in a shift starting from suarez.

Maradona plays in midfield.

And no idea what the position Mascherano has played in for Barcelona has to do with his ability to play the role he has in this team. Seems like you're looking for things to criticise IMO. Like I said before the question is whether Mascherano can play as a defensive, midfield ball-winner and play it simple to Maradona - and he absolutely can.

With Maradona in the side the team doesn't need a huge amount of creativity elsewhere in midfield, the set up is all about maximising Diego's influence, giving him the right platform to influence and dictate the match. Mascherano is perfect for that role, he'd do it happily and wouldn't have any problems deferring to Maradona.

 

[MJJ]

Maradona plays in midfield.

And no idea what the position Mascherano has played in for Barcelona has to do with his ability to play the role he has in this team. Seems like you're looking for things to criticise IMO. Like I said before the question is whether Mascherano can play as a defensive, midfield ball-winner and play it simple to Maradona - and he absolutely can.

With Maradona in the side the team doesn't need a huge amount of creativity elsewhere in midfield, the set up is all about maximising Diego's influence, giving him the right platform to influence and dictate the match. Mascherano is perfect for that role, he'd do it happily and wouldn't have any problems deferring to Maradona.

I kind of am as I do think your team doesn't have much weaknesses other than the quality of juve defenders and marinho being a poor fit stylistically.

That was more in counter to you saying he has proved his midfield credentials at barca.

 

[Theon]

Fair enough mate. All's fair in draft games!

 

[Gio]

The 1986 world cup between italy(scirea+vierchowod) and argentina, ended 1-1 with maradona scoring.

Lovely performance and goal (getting away from Scirea's clutches).

And one of my favourite great goals denied to us by the lax refereeing of the 1980s:


Like a knife through butter.

 

[idmanager]

So I wanted to vote for MJJ here but then that front 3 is let down by Suarez which sort of makes that Juve back 3 ok.

From my memory of Italy Uruguay bite gate game, Suarez was well contained. Have they faced in any other games? Not sure if already discussed but that is probably what will decide my vote. I love that 5 behind Suarez and dont miss a number 10 with Breitner and Seedorf there. Pretty balanced in attack and defense against Maradona. And that CB pairing with Mcgrain is exactly what is needed here against Batstuta and Rivaldo.

Will wait for a take on this and then vote.

 

[Gio]

So I wanted to vote for MJJ here but then that front 3 is let down by Suarez which sort of makes that Juve back 3 ok.

From my memory of Italy Uruguay bite gate game, Suarez was well contained. Have they faced in any other games? Not sure if already discussed but that is probably what will decide my vote. I love that 5 behind Suarez and dont miss a number 10 with Breitner and Seedorf there. Pretty balanced in attack and midfield against Maradona. And that CB pairing with Mcgrain is exactly what is needed here against Batstuta and Rivaldo.

Will wait for a take on this and then vote.

Suarez has played against Juventus 5 times for Barcelona and scored once. His one goal came from a rebound from a Messi shot, but otherwise he has been completely nullified in those games. Especially in the 2016/17 Champions League quarter-finals when Juventus kept clean sheets home and away against Barcelona. He wasn't able to score in either of the group stage games last season, despite again playing the full 90 minutes in both games. If we include international games that stat stretches to 7 games and just the 1 goal, with Italy shutting him out twice in 2013 and 2014.

 

[idmanager]

Suarez has played against Juventus 5 times for Barcelona and scored once. His one goal came from a rebound from a Messi shot, but otherwise he has been completely nullified in those games. Especially in the 2016/17 Champions League quarter-finals when Juventus kept clean sheets home and away against Barcelona. He wasn't able to score in either of the group stage games last season, despite again playing the full 90 minutes in both games. If we include international games that stat stretches to 7 games and just the 1 goal, with Italy shutting him out twice in 2013 and 2014.

That is solid enough a weakness for me. Sorry MJJ, really wanted to vote for you and that beautiful setup keeping the opposition in mind, but Suarez just about isn't good enough for me there and the Juve backline is a good enough match for him, especially with the real life data available. A 4-3-3 would definitely demand a great all round striker rated higher in the all time context. While Suarez is as all round as it gets, he is the weakest attacker on the pitch for me.

 

[MJJ]

So I wanted to vote for MJJ here but then that front 3 is let down by Suarez which sort of makes that Juve back 3 ok.

From my memory of Italy Uruguay bite gate game, Suarez was well contained. Have they faced in any other games? Not sure if already discussed but that is probably what will decide my vote. I love that 5 behind Suarez and dont miss a number 10 with Breitner and Seedorf there. Pretty balanced in attack and defense against Maradona. And that CB pairing with Mcgrain is exactly what is needed here against Batstuta and Rivaldo.

Will wait for a take on this and then vote.

Hoping you still have an open mind

So unfortunately suarez does have a bad record against the juve/italy defense.

However, he has only played one game against the juve trio, the group stages from 2014 which ended 1-0 in Uruguay favour. In the other games italy/juve have played four at the back so it would be unfair to take his performances into account.

That does bring me into an important element of the game though.

1. The left hand side of theon game is basically non-existant, rivaldo will operate more centrally than ADP was doing so previously and marinho as a fullback was very defensively inept and liked to cut in and shoot.
2. Marinho taking shots from 30 feet out will hamper theon's game a bit as I would rather he tries his luck than any other.

Now we compare the goal threat of the two.

Just like Suarez has a bad record against Juve trio(in a four man defense) so does theon's side against me defenders.

1. Batistuta only scored four goals from open play in 13 matches against vierchowod
2. Maradona has only scored two goals in 8 matches against scirea

So the front man of both sides has in real life struggled against the other sides defense. Where I feel the advantage lies for my side is that we can fully utilise the full width of the pitch, the overload created on marinho's side will have a significant impact on the match too.

And finally the goal threat from midfield. Brietner, has almost a 1 in 3 scoring ratio and even seedorf has more than a 100 career goals.

 

[Gio]

So unfortunately suarez does have a bad record against the juve/italy defense.

However, he has only played one game against the juve trio, the group stages from 2014 which ended 1-0 in Uruguay favour. In the other games italy/juve have played four at the back so it would be unfair to take his performances into account.

He's still head to head against the same central defenders - we can't let him off the hook that easily. I mean he only had Messi servicing him in most of those games.

 

[MJJ]

He's still head to head against the same central defenders - we can't let him off the hook that easily. I mean he only had Messi servicing him in most of those games.

Thats true, I am just trying to put a positive spin on it

Gio what do you feel about your left side being non-existent from an attacking pov?

The same way suarez did not do much against the juve defenders, batistuta and maradona did not do much against mine so I feel that cancels out.

 

[harms]

Upgrade Suarez and I would've voted for @MJJ

 

[Gio]

On the head-to-heads, I'm counting:

• Batigol has 4 in 6 v Vierchowod in the early 1990s. I didn't go later than that because Pietro was getting on a bit.

Sounds pretty good to me.

 

[MJJ]

On the head-to-heads, I'm counting:

• Batigol has 4 in 6 v Vierchowod in the early 1990s. I didn't go later than that because Pietro was getting on a bit.

Sounds pretty good to me.

Also, because he did not score since? Its 5 in 13 with one of them being a penalty.


https://www.transfermarkt.com/gabri.../verein/0/status/0/pos/0/gegner/116750/plus/1

Upgrade Suarez and I would've voted for @MJJ

Too late to say its inter's suarez?

I also feel suarez is being underrated a bit here, he was still the best striker in the world at his peak.

 

[MJJ]

Any comments on your left side @Gio ?

 

[MJJ]

Plus, Marinho might be a smaller name, but very important for the attacking balance of the left flank - especially given Neville's defensive function, and also - in terms of being a bridge to Gérson because he attacked with his right foot and came into the inside channels quite frequently:

This from invictus, sadly the video he posted does not work anymore. Based on everything, I have read on him he liked cutting in a lot and shooting. Not really what you want in a 3-5-2 with a centralistic rivaldo.

 

[Enigma_87]

What about hamrin vs marinho? Or the fact that theon has machesrano in midfield who played his prime in defense?

I can see my side controlling the midfield here and late runs from both brietner and seedorf causing havoc for theon.

Hamrin vs Marinho would be more highlighted in a back 4 IMO. Here Marinho would be used more to stretch the pitch in the attacking third, and quite possibly would get exposed from time to time, but a designated #10 would IMO facilitate Hamrin's use a lot better.

Eventially @Gio 's point on Suarez is also the deciding factor for me and if you had a better striker you'd have my vote mate.

 

[Ecstatic]

Voted for Theon even if his defensive unit is a bit underwhelming in an all-time draft.

Luis Suarez is a fantastic striker who has nothing to envy, maybe the striker #1 of the decade. The issue is not Suarez but the relatively lack of support: he's relatively isolated while he's a player who is better with players close to him.

Theon - Attack - 4*
Theon - Defence - 3*
MJJ - Attack - 3*
MJJ - Defence - 3.5*

Theon - 7
MJJ - 6.5

 

[MJJ]

Hamrin vs Marinho would be more highlighted in a back 4 IMO. Here Marinho would be used more to stretch the pitch in the attacking third, and quite possibly would get exposed from time to time, but a designated #10 would IMO facilitate Hamrin's use a lot better.

Eventially @Gio 's point on Suarez is also the deciding factor for me and if you had a better striker you'd have my vote mate.

But stretching the pitch is against his natural game?

The video shows his lack of pace or defensive effort in comparison to lato though, I can just as easily see hamrin doing the same here given how direct he is.

Marinho’s surging runs forward was a feature of his game that provoked as much admiration as criticism. The left flank of the defense which he so often left unprotected, especially when playing home matches at the mythical Maracana Stadium, merited the sarcastic term of “Marinho Avenue”.

It kind of alerted Brazil's national team coaches, after 74, about the convenience of relying on a left back who, although tremendously skillful and generator of many attacks from the back, could not be much relied for the defensive work

His surging runs and willingness to take a shot from outside the box endeared himself, not just to neutrals, but to an impressionable 12-year-old, living on the outskirts of Liverpool. I have vivid memories of watching Franciso play for Brazil, then the next possible chance I would get, re-enact his runs down the left-hand side. I would cut in 30 yards from the goal and unleash a shot Marinho style

The guy loved cutting inside, having mcgrain/hamrin on that side should pull cheillini outside and leave space in the middle. Given the quality of my midfield, if bonucci sits too deep brietner will bang one in so he cant really be behind cheillini to cover for his mistakes.

One on One, hamrin vs cheillini is only ending one way.

 

[MJJ]

Voted for Theon even if his defensive unit is a bit underwhelming in an all-time draft.

Luis Suarez is a fantastic striker who has nothing to envy, maybe the striker #1 of the decade. The issue is not Suarez but the relatively lack of support: he's relatively isolated while he's a player who is better with players close to him.

Theon - Attack - 4*
Theon - Defence - 3*
MJJ - Attack - 3*
MJJ - Defence - 3.5*

Theon - 7
MJJ - 6.5

Despite being a winger, Hamrin nearly always challenged for the title of Serie A capocannoniere. I think with hamrin+boniek+breitner my side has enough goals to make a difference?

Also, with no wingers off the opposite side both boniek and hamrin will push up and stay up to provide the support and one touch play suarez thrives on.

 

[MJJ]

@Enigma_87 if you are taking suarez record into account, you should take batistuta and maradona's goal scoring record against vierchowod and scirea too.

 

[Ecstatic]

Despite being a winger, Hamrin nearly always challenged for the title of Serie A capocannoniere. I think with hamrin+boniek+breitner my side has enough goals to make a difference?

Also, with no wingers off the opposite side both boniek and hamrin will push up and stay up to provide the support and one touch play suarez thrives on.

Each team has its pros and cons as usual

 

[harms]

I also feel suarez is being underrated a bit here, he was still the best striker in the world at his peak.

It's not even Suarez himself (a better striker would've been preferable, but tbf not many match him as a hardworking 9), it's his underwhelming record against a defence that would've been a weakness against another attacker.

 

[Enigma_87]

But stretching the pitch is against his natural game?

The video shows his lack of pace or defensive effort in comparison to lato though, I can just as easily see hamrin doing the same here given how direct he is.

The guy loved cutting inside, having mcgrain/hamrin on that side should pull cheillini outside and leave space in the middle. Given the quality of my midfield, if bonucci sits too deep brietner will bang one in so he cant really be behind cheillini to cover for his mistakes.

One on One, hamrin vs cheillini is only ending one way.

Unfortunately my knowledge about Marinho ends at the 1974 WC. I've saw him and Brazil's games at the time(mainly due to watching Rivelino footage mind) and he was indeed an attacking minded full back in the Marcelo mold defensively. He was very good in the attacking third, indeed liked to cut in and use his stronger foot(he had a pretty good goalscoring record for a full back at the time as well).

If you use him in a back four and especially against a winger in Hamrin's quality he'll be a liability. In a back 5 with more attacking instruction he'd be better utilized IMO, especially in all time draft.

I'd probably have him as a bit worse version of Marcelo. I rate him and was well capable of carrying the ball forward and was very important to Brazil's attacking game at the WC. It wasn't only his shots he had some nice delivery from outside as well.

 

[MJJ]

It's not even Suarez himself (a better striker would've been preferable, but tbf not many match him as a hardworking 9), it's his underwhelming record against a defence that would've been a weakness against another attacker.

That is true but theon's side are more reliant on maradona+batistuta who also have poor goal scoring records against my defenders.

As long as suarez does his duty defensively, I feel like my midfield can contribute enough for me to edge the match.

And suarez does have a goal and two assists which isnt too bad.

 

[MJJ]

Unfortunately my knowledge about Marinho ends at the 1974 WC. I've saw him and Brazil's games at the time(mainly due to watching Rivelino footage mind) and he was indeed an attacking minded full back in the Marcelo mold defensively. He was very good in the attacking third, indeed liked to cut in and use his stronger foot(he had a pretty good goalscoring record for a full back at the time as well).

If you use him in a back four and especially against a winger in Hamrin's quality he'll be a liability. In a back 5 with more attacking instruction he'd be better utilized IMO, especially in all time draft.

I'd probably have him as a bit worse version of Marcelo. I rate him and was well capable of carrying the ball forward and was very important to Brazil's attacking game at the WC. It wasn't only his shots he had some nice delivery from outside as well.

He would be but in that case, you would want somebody who goes outwide from the LAM not somebody like rivaldo who prefers to stay central. The goal I posted from the 1958 finals is something that is relevant here, marinho loses the ball with a lose pass, does not bother tracking back and leaves lato one on one with a central defender.

The goal against germany in 1958.

Just like lato brushed past him, hamrin can do the same with just as much ease. So its not that he is poor positionally, its more than he completely leaves his area unmarked.

The left flank of the defense which he so often left unprotected, especially when playing home matches at the mythical Maracana Stadium, merited the sarcastic term of “Marinho Avenue”.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 if you are taking suarez record into account, you should take batistuta and maradona's goal scoring record against vierchowod and scirea too.

Yeah I saw that mate, and not much to separate the sides if any. Probably would back the more elite forward line tho in terms of tie breaker.

 

[MJJ]

Yeah I saw that mate, and not much to separate the sides if any. Probably would back the more elite forward line tho in terms of tie breaker.

Given who our manager is, we should backing the stronger defense

Seriously though, in a tight game mistakes count and marinho is more likely to make a mistake than anyone else on the pitch.

 

[MJJ]

Also, @Theon marinho was a right footed left back who liked to cut in. How do you see him providing width here?


Clip from 1974 world cup, around the 48 second mark, Marinho gives the ball away with a poor pass then fails to come back in time to prevent lato from scoring.

Meant to post this earlier.

 

[Gio]

Gio what do you feel about your left side being non-existent from an attacking pov?

No chance. Chagas was chosen by Theon because he's very tidy and creative going forward and the wing-back role suits his technical and attacking nature. But Rivaldo peeling wide from the inside-left channel suits him to a tee. From the left:

He can cross like this:

Spoiler

Or he can cut in and score like this:

Spoiler

Or almost score like this:

Spoiler

Or he can rattle one in the onion bag like this:

Spoiler

 

[MJJ]

No chance. Chagas was chosen by Theon because he's very tidy and creative going forward and the wing-back role suits his technical and attacking nature. But Rivaldo peeling wide from the inside-left channel suits him to a tee. From the left:

He can cross like this:

Spoiler

Or he can cut in and score like this:

Spoiler

Or almost score like this:

Spoiler

Or he can rattle one in the onion bag like this:

Spoiler

If you read the quotes I posted earlier, he did like to attack and was very good offensively however his mode of attacking was cutting in on his right foot and shooting. He has an absurd number of goals for a fullback, secondly he wasnt that good defensively and left his area unmanned.

The brazilian goalkeeper in the 1974 3rd place final even punched him as he blamed him for the defeat.

No doubt rivaldo can go out wide but he prefers staying central and thats where he is going to be in terms of average position.

 

[harms]

The goalkeeper in the 1958 final even punched him as he blamed him for the defeat.

He punched a 6 y.o. baby? Brutal.

 

[MJJ]

He punched a 6 y.o. baby? Brutal.

1974, had 1958 on my mind due to Hamrin who led sweden into the finals that year.

 

[Gio]

If you read the quotes I posted earlier, he did like to attack and was very good offensively however his mode of attacking was cutting in on his right foot and shooting. He has an absurd number of goals for a fullback

Well welcome to the right-footed left-back club, current luminaries include Giacinto Facchetti, Paulo Maldini and Ruud Krol. All providers of proper width keeping that field nicely stretched.

I take your point that he's right-footed, but he's not an inverted full-back like Junior for instance coming into the centre of the park all of the time. They're pretty rare truth be told.

 

[MJJ]

Well welcome to the right-footed left-back club, current luminaries include Giacinto Facchetti, Paulo Maldini and Ruud Krol. All providers of proper width keeping that field nicely stretched.

I take your point that he's right-footed, but he's not an inverted full-back like Junior for instance coming into the centre of the park all of the time. They're pretty rare truth be told.

His surging runs and willingness to take a shot from outside the box endeared himself, not just to neutrals, but to an impressionable 12-year-old, living on the outskirts of Liverpool. I have vivid memories of watching Franciso play for Brazil, then the next possible chance I would get, re-enact his runs down the left-hand side. I would cut in 30 yards from the goal and unleash a shot Marinho style

This is from the people who saw him play and their personal anecdotes regarding him.

Marinho’s surging runs forward was a feature of his game that provoked as much admiration as criticism. The left flank of the defense which he so often left unprotected, especially when playing home matches at the mythical Maracana Stadium, merited the sarcastic term of “Marinho Avenue”.

It kind of alerted Brazil's national team coaches, after 74, about the convenience of relying on a left back who, although tremendously skillful and generator of many attacks from the back, could not be much relied for the defensive work

Look at both videos and his average position, half his highlights show him in the centre of the pitch. He also says he was an attacker who was converted to fullback which explains his lack of defensive nous.

After that 1974 defeat in the WC to Poland, Leao (goalkeeper) whacked him in the changing rooms for attacking too much and leaving Lato to do what he wanted.

 

[MJJ]

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

are you serious? Please call Leão (brazilian goalkeeper in 1974 and other 3 WCs and former Brazil NT Head-Coach) and ask him what he thinks about Marinho Chagas... Especially against Holland in 1974.

He ****ing PUNCHED the idiot in the face after the game Poland. If not for people intervening he would probably kill him. Marinho cost us the games against Holland and Poland with his stupidness.

as we say in brazil his back was an "avenue". amateurish player.

From a brazilian poster. Awesome attacking wise but very poor defensively.

 

[MJJ]

The move to a sub-draft forum has had an impact in the number of views and votes imo.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

Disappointing that article posted compares Zidane and Rivaldo so much, yet ignores the '98 final where Rivaldo had a poor game and Zidane began to really build his legend as ultimate big-game player. Looking back, that was THE key game(with both facing each other no less) that largely dictated who many would rate as the greater player between the two. Rivaldo gets the win for Brasil that night with a strong performance and a goal or two and Zidane is poor, i'd wager only a minority would rate Zidane over him.