P&G Draft - R1: Physiocrat vs Skizzo

[Skizzo]

To put into perspective, those three have been part of the best club side to ever play. The most dominating at its peak. Lets look at some of their actual numbers to put it into perspective.

Lionel Messi has five Balon D'or's, four of which he won consecutively. In 2009 when Messi won it, Xavi was third. In 2010, the second and third place players in voting were, you guessed it, Xavi and Andres Iniesta. In 2011 when Messi won it, Xavi was third. In 2012 when Messi won it, Iniesta was third. All playing at ridiculously high levels and elevating each others game to new heights.

Both a prolific goalscorer and a creative playmaker, Messi holds the records for most official goals scored in La Liga (383), a La Liga season (50), a club football season in Europe (73), a calendar year (91), El Clásico (26), as well as those for most assists in La Liga (149) and the Copa América (11). He has scored over 600 senior career goals for club and country

I mean, even taking a quick glance at his trophy haul and records should highlight how he has no one here who can stop him, and XavIesta running away with this.

World

• Most (FIFA) Ballons d'Or: 5 (2009–12, 2015) (Shared with Ronaldo)
• Guinness World Record as top goalscorer for club and country in a calendar year: 91 goals in 2012
• Top goalscorer in all club competitions in a calendar year: 79 goals in 2012
• Top goalscorer in a club season: 73 goals in 2011–12
• Longest goalscoring run in a domestic league: 21 matches, 33 goals in 2012–13
• Only player to have won more than one FIFA Club World Cup Golden Ball
• Most appearances in the FIFPro World XI: 11 times (2007–2017) (shared with Cristiano Ronaldo)

Continental

• Most European Golden Shoes: 5
• Most goals scored in a European Cup/Champions League game: 5 goals (shared with 13 other players)
• Most goals scored in the UEFA Champions League group stages: 60 (shared with Cristiano Ronaldo)
• Most hat-tricks scored in the UEFA Champions League: 7 (shared with Cristiano Ronaldo)
• Youngest player to make 100 appearances in the UEFA Champions League: 28 years, 84 days in 2015
• Top goalscorer in the UEFA Super Cup: 3 goals (shared with Arie Haan, Oleg Blokhin, Gerd Müller, Rob Rensenbrink, François Van der Elst, Terry McDermott, and Radamel Falcao)
• Top assist provider in Copa América: 11 assists
• Most goals scored in CONMEBOL World Cup Qualifiers: 21 goals (shared with Luis Suárez)

Spain

• Most Best Player in La Liga awards: 6 (2009–13, 2015)
• Most Best Forward in La Liga awards: 7 (2009–13, 2015, 2016)
• Top goalscorer in La Liga: 383 goals
• Top assist provider in La Liga: 149 assists
• Top goalscorer in the Supercopa de España: 13 goals
• Top goalscorer in a La Liga season: 50 goals in 2011–12
• Most hat-tricks scored in a La Liga season: 8 in 2011–12 (shared with Cristiano Ronaldo)
• First player to reach 300 La Liga goals; only player to reach 350 La Liga goals.
• Most opposition teams scored against in La Liga history: 36

Barcelona

• Top goalscorer in the Derbi barceloní: 21 goals
• Top goalscorer in El Clásico: 26 goals
• Top goalscorer in the Athletic–Barcelona clásico: 24 goals
• Top goalscorer in official competitions: 552 goals
• Top goalscorer including friendlies: 586 goals
• Top goalscorer in the UEFA Champions League: 100 goals
• Top goalscorer in European competitions: 103 goals
• Top goalscorer in international competitions: 108 goals
• Most hat-tricks scored in La Liga: 30
• Most hat-tricks scored in all competitions: 41
• Most official trophies won with the team: 32

Now you might ask, Skizzo, why post all Messi's accomplishments? we know he's a great player. Well, because sometimes the best players in these games get taken for granted, and when you look at his ridiculous list of accomplishments, it really does highlight the fact that he won't and can't be stopped in this game, and just like Maradona, letting him play his game without an actual concrete way of stopping him just means he'll take over.

 

[Physiocrat]

Ok last post before I hit the hay.

Main points

• My deep narrow defence and midfield can do a better containing job than any of the sides who defeated the Pep Barca machine- my sides quality is far better than the 2010 Inter side and 2012 Chelsea side (Lahm, Campbell, McGrath, Alaba vs Ivanovic, Cahill (), Terry and Cole). Further my front three are perfectly placed to exploit Barca's traditional weakness on the counter and lack of physicality.
• There will be a lot of space in behind the full backs on the counter which the passing power of Gullit, Stielike and especially Overath will exploit - my midfield will be the most press resistant that Barca side had ever come across. It will also harass them Xaviesta with intelligence and industry.
• Skoglund will be a handful for Alves but Alba will stand no chance against Matthews - peak Barca had a conservative Abidal to balance Dani Alves forward forays.
• RVN and the late arriving Gullit will dominate Skizzo's CBs in the air. Further, any set play and corner will be an absolute pain for Skizzo as he only has two players over 6ft tall whereas I have Campbell, McGrath, Gullit and RVN supplied by Overath's free kicks.
• My defence is far better suited to stop Skizzo than his is to stop mine.

I had a look at the sides that beat Barca in knockout rounds under Pep between 2010 and 2012 as that is when Messi regularly played as a false 9 - it was a surprise to Utd in 09 that he played in the middle with Eto'o wide right. They win in 2011 and in 2010 Ibra was upfront which messed up Barca's system so the best comparison is against Chelsea in 2012. Now look at the Chelsea side's quality and compare it with mine - Gullit is a Ballon D'or and came second in a much more evenly competitive era.

Note also how narrow the back four is which is exactly the way I am setup. You can argue that Skizzo's side is better than the Barca side shown here, and it probably is, but my side is better in every single position with the possible exception of Cole and Cech. Skoglund and Matthews will provide far more problems than Mata and Ramires did. Further, there is no contest between Mikel, Lampard and Meireles and Gullit, Stielike and Overath - the ball moving will be so much better. Now you might contend I'm ignoring the peak of 2011 so here's the Champions League final teams -

A midfield two of Carrick and Giggs would never stand a chance against Xaviesta- surprisingly, despite his general quality Fabio was probably Utd's best player that day but Lahm is significantly better. Further, the industry of my midfield three is far, far higher than Carrick and an ageing Giggs. Note the wider defence relative to Chelsea and space for Messi. Most interestingly, you have the relatively defensive Abidal at left back to compensate for Alves' attacking forays. Had Utd gone with a 433 with a DM squeezing the space for Messi they'd had stood a much better chance. Again my front six is significantly better than Utd's was and would move the ball quicker and cause more damage on the counter.

 

[Skizzo]

Ones a 442 with a much better central partnership in Rio and Vidic.

And Chelsea is basically a 451 with Mata and Ramires doing more in the way of dirty defensive work than you’d get from Matthews and definitely Skoglund.

 

[Physiocrat]

Ones a 442 with a much better central partnership in Rio and Vidic.

A failed 442. I'd have Rio and McGrath at a similar level and Vidic at bit above Campbell but Campbell's pace would be a great asset here- overall I don't see too much in it especially when pace is a bigger factor than aeiral ability here. As I said before Utd with a competent midfield three in front of them they would have done a lot better.

And Chelsea is basically a 451 with Mata and Ramires doing more in the way of dirty defensive work than you’d get from Matthews and definitely Skoglund.

Mata was hardly known for his work rate, that's why Mourinho shipped him out. I'll give you Ramirez though. Chelsea are slightly more defensive than my side but I have much more quality in defence and midfield and are far more potent on the break.

 

[Skizzo]

A failed 442. I'd have Rio and McGrath at a similar level and Vidic at bit above Campbell but Campbell's pace would be a great asset here- overall I don't see too much in it especially when pace is a bigger factor than aeiral ability here. As I said before Utd with a competent midfield three in front of them they would have done a lot better.

I agree with the ratings, and as I said, I’m a big fan of Mcgrath. I think him and Campbell would still struggle with the dynamism and change of movement and direction of some of the passing and dribbling through. But I don’t want to beat that horse.

Mata was hardly known for his work rate, that's why Mourinho shipped him out. I'll give you Ramirez though. Chelsea are slightly more defensive than my side but I have much more quality in defence and midfield and are far more potent on the break.

Mata was practically Maldini lite with his defensive performances

For all the talk of pace though, Alves and Alba have it in abundance, which will only aid them in recovering on the counter, pressing to win it back etc.

I’ll stop going round in circles with you and let you get to bed though mate catch you around later.

 

[Skizzo]

I’ll be heading out in a bit, so I’ll just take some time to address a point that seems to be overlooked so far.

The goal threat from both teams here is vast. Messi stands alone as a goal scorer here, and is on his own elite tier in this match, so I’ll focus on secondary threats and how the opposition matches up.

• Its already a given that we’ll have the lions share of the ball, that’s a given. How many of Physio’s players have been put on the back foot for the majority of the game or starved for service? Ruud? Matthews? Gullit? How many have been asked to relentlessly have to follow runners and press the opposition as they knock it around? Overath? Stielike? The majority of those players were at the big clubs, where they enjoyed decent time on the ball to influence a match. They’d be starved of that same luxury here.
• To make the most of that high press and not get overrun, it requires a strong team work ethic and everyone pulling the same direction. Ruud would press reluctantly at times, but Alves would require someone tracking him. What does Wiki say about Skoglund? He was though sometimes considered as a selfish player, or a "soloist".Amongst his weaknesses were also a limited physical durability, inconsistency and lack of stamina. Not the type you’d expect to help Alaba in stopping my right flank run riot.
• I won’t question Ruud’s scoring record, although he will be starved more of service with a lack of possession here. As for secondary goal threats, it’s slim pickings. About 100 in 449 for Skoglund, 71 in 697 for Matthews, and all of Gullit’s high scoring seasons came when he was playing in a front two/three. Pulling him into a midfield battle to chase the ball limits his ability to hurt us. Those stats are also all taking into account that they were in teams who would enjoy similar possession to the opposition. Not against a juggernaut like Barca who would exhaust them by making them chase the ball and the game.

 

[Skizzo]

On the flip side—

Luis Enrique played all across the front line at Barcelona, scoring regularly from either wing or through the middle, meaning he hit double figures in all but one of his eight seasons at Barca. In total, eight out of his fifteen seasons playing ended with double figures for the year.

Allan Simonsen hit double figures in 12 out of his 18 seasons playing, and all 3 seasons at Barca.

And that Messi fella has just shy of 400 in 500 games.

Add to that the possession advantage we’d enjoy, the passing ability of XavIesta to find the forwards, and the support of Alves on that right flank, and I reiterate my belief in coming out victorious with us outscoring the opposition.

 

[Skizzo]

One final bump before heading off to bed. Not sure what else to address since it’s mostly been @Physiocrat and myself blabbing on

Think this has been the lowest vote turnout too. Shucks.

Anyway, good luck for the last couple of hours mate!

 

[Physiocrat]

Good game Skizzo. It's hard defending a side very similar to a real life setup when I can point to have they were very occasionally defeated.

If you had Abidal at left back I think you could have sneaked it.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

One final bump before heading off to bed. Not sure what else to address since it’s mostly been @Physiocrat and myself blabbing on

Think this has been the lowest vote turnout too. Shucks.

Anyway, good luck for the last couple of hours mate!

Nah, that would be my match . Good arguments could be made for both teams here, and I really liked Physio's use of his full backs, but opted for the Xaviesta midfield partnership and freaky goal threat of Messi. Their voting pull definitely seems to have faded lately though, compared to the days when they would be backed to beat a Matthaus/Tardelli midfield:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/managers-draft-r1-gio-vs-the-red-viper.397954/

or when they didn't even have to start the match together to vanquish us in that infamous final :

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/final-skizzo-vs-cal-all-time-3-yr-peak-auction-draft.406302/

 

[MJJ]

Nah, that would be my match . Good arguments could be made for both teams here, and I really liked Physio's use of his full backs, but opted for the Xaviesta midfield partnership and freaky goal threat of Messi. Their voting pull definitely seems to have faded lately though, compared to the days when they would be backed to beat a Matthaus/Tardelli midfield:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/managers-draft-r1-gio-vs-the-red-viper.397954/

or when they didn't even have to start the match together to vanquish us in that infamous final :

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/final-skizzo-vs-cal-all-time-3-yr-peak-auction-draft.406302/

How did you lose that match.

 

[harms]

Think this has been the lowest vote turnout too. Shucks.

I was on the fence until the end, I'd imagine that I was not the only one

 

[Pat_Mustard]

How did you lose that match.

feck knows . I sometimes miss having the option to make substitutions in these matches but if ever a match illustrated why it didn't work it was that one.

 

[harms]

or when they didn't even have to start the match together to vanquish us in that infamous final :

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/final-skizzo-vs-cal-all-time-3-yr-peak-auction-draft.406302/

Zidane over Iniesta with Xavi, Messi and Alves starting
To be fair, Cristiano - Pelé - Messi is the ultimate start-studded attack that can actually function quite well

 

[idmanager]

Zidane over Iniesta with Xavi, Messi and Alves starting
To be fair, Cristiano - Pelé - Messi is the ultimate start-studded attack that can actually function quite well

Aye I would have voted for that front 3 with that midfield no matter which of Zizou and Iniesta started

 

[Skizzo]

Good game Skizzo. It's hard defending a side very similar to a real life setup when I can point to have they were very occasionally defeated.

If you had Abidal at left back I think you could have sneaked it.

You too mate. Once Abidal went, I knew the Barca theme was a bit of a risk, but decided to stick with it and mix up my drafting strategy a bit for once

Good luck going forward.

 

[antohan]

Funny that this is the second time Abidal is mentioned as critical for a possession side/high line, yet whenever I had him in a back three he was always painted as a weakness. How much was his going rate?

On the game, I would have voted @Physiocrat That's a very interesting setup which I can see working very well. I like sides that can adapt their shape to good effect with the right players to deliver it.

Have the opposite situation with @Skizzo. He sports many players I'm told I have an irrational hard on for, but for the same reason I don't buy it. The 80s/90s Cruyff influenced Barca wasn't a tiki taka side, it appreciated the merit of possession but it was extremely vertical and direct.

I have a hard time working out what (if anything) would work with that personnel. Tiki taka masters mixed with lightning transitions where one pass and the constant movement upfront combine to eviscerate an entire defence in seconds.

There's the temptation of thinking they could combine the best of both approaches, but that requires a massive leap of good faith.

 

[Physiocrat]

Funny that this is the second time Abidal is mentioned as critical for a possession side/high line, yet whenever I had him in a back three he was always painted as a weakness. How much was his going rate?

On the game, I would have voted @Physiocrat That's a very interesting setup which I can see working very well. I like sides that can adapt their shape to good effect with the right players to deliver it.

Have the opposite situation with @Skizzo. He sports many players I'm told I have an irrational hard on for, but for the same reason I don't buy it. The 80s/90s Cruyff influenced Barca wasn't a tiki taka side, it appreciated the merit of possession but it was extremely vertical and direct.

I have a hard time working out what (if anything) would work with that personnel. Tiki taka masters mixed with lightning transitions where one pass and the constant movement upfront combine to eviscerate an entire defence in seconds.

There's the temptation of thinking they could combine the best of both approaches, but that requires a massive leap of good faith.

I think we forgot Abidal when creating the lists so he would have been 15m In our defence we did value I think over 350 players.

Glad you appreciated the setup. I was thinking it would have been a hard sell but no-one questioned its functionality. Some wanted Gullit at 10 but that was about it.

With respect to tiki-taki I can see the motivation to add some more directness to it otherwise it can end up like the tumescent Spain 2012 side. It's just difficult trying to determine how the more direct players would fit into the system. Pep may well try that when he moves on to either PSG or possibly to Italy if the money rolls in there.

 

[antohan]

I think we forgot Abidal when creating the lists so he would have been 15m In our defence we did value I think over 350 players.

Glad you appreciated the setup. I was thinking it would have been a hard sell but no-one questioned its functionality. Some wanted Gullit at 10 but that was about it.

With respect to tiki-taki I can see the motivation to add some more directness to it otherwise it can end up like the tumescent Spain 2012 side. It's just difficult trying to determine how the more direct players would fit into the system. Pep may well try that when he moves on to either PSG or possibly to Italy if the money rolls in there.

Nah, I think you get more out of Gullit like this. Why constrain such a marvellous and complete player? Most times I see him deployed as #10 there's people doing jobs all around him so he seems like some sort of static lamp post who is a bit tall and can win headers. feck that, give him space to work in and cover, he will dominate it in all phases. Absolute monster of a player.

 

[Physiocrat]

Nah, I think you get more out of Gullit like this. Why constrain such a marvellous and complete player? Most times I see him deployed as #10 there's people doing jobs all around him so he seems like some sort of static lamp post who is a bit tall and can win headers. feck that, give him space to work in and cover, he will dominate it in all phases. Absolute monster of a player.

Agreed. I'd forgotten how quick he was before rewatching some videos and his dribbling is quality too. One of the most complete players ever.