Pakistan

Edgar Allan Pillow

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What the hell is happening to that country? Are they still a 'democracy' ? They seem to be transforming into a hardcore religios nation with human rights etc declining rapidly.

Nuclear power too!

Sawan Masih, a conservancy worker who was sentenced to death for blasphemy last week by a sessions court in Lahore, has filed an appeal on Tuesday in the high court according to news reports quoting his lawyer.

Sections 295 to 295-C of the Pakistan Penal Code (PPC) are generally referred to as the blasphemy code. This is the second case this year after a Briton Mohammed Asghar was sentenced to death in January by a sessions court in Adiala Jail, Rawalpindi despite a proven record of mental illness. Masih was also fined Rs 200,000.

The case against him was filed after an argument with a neighbor where he was accused of defaming the Prophet. A mob attacked Joseph Colony where he lived in March 2013, in which nearly 100 homes and some churches in the locality were torched.

The Human Rights Watch World Report 2014 says that abuses are rife under the country's blasphemy law, which is used against religious minorities, often to settle personal disputes. Dozens of people were charged with the offense in 2013. At least 16 people remained on death row for blasphemy, while another 20 were serving life sentences.
Law not being enforced is one thing. courts actively supporting is completely different!
Very concerning, I should say.
 

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that can't be right. i can't see the link (it is blocked at work). can someone post the text
A nine-month-old boy has appeared in court in Pakistan on charges of planning a murder, threatening police and interfering in state affairs, it appears.

Baby Muhammad Mosa Khan is one of more than 30 people facing charges after a police raid to catch suspected gas thieves in the city of Lahore, The News website reports. Police say the suspects tried to murder security officers by pelting them with stones. But the Times of India newspaper quotes the infant's father as saying the group was protesting against an electricity shortage.

The infant appeared in the courtroom sitting on his father's lap and clasping a bottle. He was given bail and the case has been adjourned until 12 April, reports from Lahore say. His father is also among the accused.

The murder charges against a baby have alarmed Punjab's Chief Minister Muhammad Shahbaz Sharif. He has asked for clarification from the province's inspector-general of police and demanded "stern action" against the officials who registered the case.

The assistant superintendent who filed the charges has subsequently been suspended, The Nation website says.
 

coolredwine

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that can't be right. i can't see the link (it is blocked at work). can someone post the text
Baby Muhammad Mosa Khan is one of more than 30 people facing charges after a police raid to catch suspected gas thieves in the city of Lahore, The News website reports. Police say the suspects tried to murder security officers by pelting them with stones. But the Times of India newspaper quotes the infant's father as saying the group was protesting against an electricity shortage.

The infant appeared in the courtroom sitting on his father's lap and clasping a bottle. He was given bail and the case has been adjourned until 12 April, reports from Lahore say. His father is also among the accused.
The murder charges against a baby have alarmed Punjab's Chief Minister Muhammad Shahbaz Sharif. He has asked for clarification from the province's inspector-general of police and demanded "stern action" against the officials who registered the case.

The assistant superintendent who filed the charges has subsequently been suspended, The Nation website says.
 

Madthinker

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that can't be right. i can't see the link (it is blocked at work). can someone post the text
Where do you work that blocks the BBC, but not Redcafe?

Tbf the story isn't quite on the same lines as the OP - it seems to be one assistant superintendent being an idiot, rather than anything at a high level.
 

Red Defence

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It's a terrible state of affairs for the poor man who has been sentenced to death but this country really needs to get a grip of itself. There just is no logic to some of their laws or sentences.

Going out on a limb here, but does it really matter if someone chooses to defame the prophet. Just ignore them and leave it at that. If it's a serious enough crime in the eyes of the prophet himself then I assume he will use the power he has to deal with it directly from "up above".

Meanwhile the government should be trying to get it's law-making officials to act in a more rational and logical manner. They have a country to run and I'm sure they have far more pressing crimes against humanity that need dealing with first.

(Sorry if this offends anyone sensibilities...it wasn't intended to).
 

Sir Matt

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It's a terrible state of affairs for the poor man who has been sentenced to death but this country really needs to get a grip of itself. There just is no logic to some of their laws or sentences.

Going out on a limb here, but does it really matter if someone chooses to defame the prophet. Just ignore them and leave it at that. If it's a serious enough crime in the eyes of the prophet himself then I assume he will use the power he has to deal with it directly from "up above".

Meanwhile the government should be trying to get it's law-making officials to act in a more rational and logical manner. They have a country to run and I'm sure they have far more pressing crimes against humanity that need dealing with first.

(Sorry if this offends anyone sensibilities...it wasn't intended to).
Woah, woah, woah. Let's not be reasonable.
 

MJJ

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Yes. It is.
It's a terrible state of affairs for the poor man who has been sentenced to death but this country really needs to get a grip of itself. There just is no logic to some of their laws or sentences.

Going out on a limb here, but does it really matter if someone chooses to defame the prophet. Just ignore them and leave it at that. If it's a serious enough crime in the eyes of the prophet himself then I assume he will use the power he has to deal with it directly from "up above".

Meanwhile the government should be trying to get it's law-making officials to act in a more rational and logical manner. They have a country to run and I'm sure they have far more pressing crimes against humanity that need dealing with first.

(Sorry if this offends anyone sensibilities...it wasn't intended to).
 

Dante

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It's the Muslim equivalent of Christian witch trials: a convenient way to get an enemy in shit whilst all and sundry trip over themselves to prove they're holier than thou. It wouldn't happen if the judiciary wasn't so corrupt.
 

Sultan

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Going out on a limb here, but does it really matter if someone chooses to defame the prophet.
The laws are in place to protect the citizens than the Prophet. In an ultra religious country if people given free reign to defame someone regarded so highly would cause civil riots, damage to religious infrastructure and bloodshed. The issue of riots and bloodshed would be even more severe if those defaming comes from a minority religion in that particular country.
 

Sultan

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What the hell is happening to that country? Are they still a 'democracy' ? They seem to be transforming into a hardcore religios nation with human rights etc declining rapidly.

Nuclear power too!



Law not being enforced is one thing. courts actively supporting is completely different!
Very concerning, I should say.
The judiciary needs to be seen to be acting tough on these matters as a deterrent. As an Indian you should understand more than anyone how fragile these issues are in these parts of the world. Imagine the carnage if a Muslim was to defame a statue of a revered Hindu God in public? In Gujarat it's against the law to slaughter cows for consumption to protect the sensibilities of the majority Hindu population, and people are actually prosecuted for breaking this law.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow

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The judiciary needs to be seen to be acting on these matters more as a deterrent. As an Indian you should understand more than anyone how fragile these issues are in these parts of the world. Imagine the carnage if a Muslim was to defame a statue of a revered Hindu God? In Gujarat it's against the law to slaughter cows for consumption to protect the sensibilities of the majority Hindu population, and people are actually prosecuted for breaking this law.
Understand that Sults, but OP was on my opinion that the country is imploding internally, not on intra-religious conflicts. If you look at the OP, both death penalty accused were muslims too (by their names, I presume). The take I got from those articles and my colleagues from there is that that country is becoming too radical even for 'normal' muslims (for lack of a better word). The radical elements are gaining momentum and blasphemy laws used against anyone who does not show explicit support! I think the situation will deteriorate even without other countries/religions intervention.
 

Sultan

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Understand that Sults, but OP was on my opinion that the country is imploding internally, not on intra-religious conflicts. If you look at the OP, both death penalty accused were muslims too (by their names, I presume). The take I got from those articles and my colleagues from there is that that country is becoming too radical even for 'normal' muslims (for lack of a better word). The radical elements are gaining momentum and blasphemy laws used against anyone who does not show explicit support! I think the situation will deteriorate even without other countries/religions intervention.
There's no doubt Pakistan are at crossroads at present. It's always been particularly a particularly volatile nation since the partition (which should never have happened). Pakistan have also been in an unfortunate situation because they are bordering Afghanistan and Iran. The refugee problem over the last decade has seen a few million political and religious refugees flood into Pakistan causing more problems to an already difficult situation.

Although a lot is made of these blasphemy cases nothing much ever comes out of these. They're generally local disputes between individuals and are then used as a tool for revenge. I would guess the people accused are from a minority Muslim sect called the Qadianis regarded as heretics in Pakistan.
 

JustAFan

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The laws are in place to protect the citizens than the Prophet. In an ultra religious country if people given free reign to defame someone regarded so highly would cause civil riots, damage to religious infrastructure and bloodshed. The issue of riots and bloodshed would be even more severe if those defaming comes from a minority religion in that particular country.
Sounds perfectly sane.
 

Eboue

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The laws are in place to protect the citizens than the Prophet. In an ultra religious country if people given free reign to defame someone regarded so highly would cause civil riots, damage to religious infrastructure and bloodshed. The issue of riots and bloodshed would be even more severe if those defaming comes from a minority religion in that particular country.

So the laws prevent people from saying mean things because another group of people might get violent?

Shouldn't the law be focused on people committing violence?
 

Sir Matt

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The laws are in place to protect the citizens than the Prophet. In an ultra religious country if people given free reign to defame someone regarded so highly would cause civil riots, damage to religious infrastructure and bloodshed. The issue of riots and bloodshed would be even more severe if those defaming comes from a minority religion in that particular country.
Essentially, Pakistan is happy to kill a relatively small number of people for their words to keep the majority from rioting. The rights of the minority be damned. The larger issue is that a sizable part of the Pakistani population are stuck several centuries in the past. The government should be more worried about those who riot than those who speak. The fault lies with them for being hyper-sensitive children.
 

Sultan

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Essentially, Pakistan is happy to kill a relatively small number of people for their words to keep the majority from rioting. The rights of the minority be damned. The larger issue is that a sizable part of the Pakistani population are stuck several centuries in the past. The government should be more worried about those who riot than those who speak. The fault lies with them for being hyper-sensitive children.
You'll find hardly anyone has ever been killed for blasphemy.

There are already laws in place for rioters.

There are laws against defamation, slander, restrictions on freedom of speech, libel, and censorship in all Western nations. We really need to look closer to our own backyards before calling others out.
 

Eboue

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You'll find hardly anyone ever killed for blasphemy.

There are already laws in place for rioters.

There are laws against defamation, restrictions in freedom of speech, libel, and censorship in all Western nations. We really need to look closer to our own backyards before calling others out.
You are right there are restrictions in western nations. We have hate crime laws in the US and even the UK had less than liberal free speech laws. But that is several orders of magnitude off what we are seeing in Pakistan.
 

Sultan

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You are right there are restrictions in western nations. We have hate crime laws in the US and even the UK had less than liberal free speech laws. But that is several orders of magnitude off what we are seeing in Pakistan.
That's because Pakistan was basically found on religious ideology, and laws.

All Western nations are now based on secular laws. Just a few decades back we in the West would also have had serious repercussions for blaspheming against religion. A few minutes from where I live in the UK we had witch trials, girls locked up in mental institutions for life just for getting pregnant out of wedlock and accused of being possessed.

Lets not judge others by our standards. Change takes time.
 

Eboue

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That's because Pakistan was basically found on religious ideology, and laws.

All Western nations are now based on secular laws. Just a few decades back we in the West would also have had serious repercussions for blaspheming against religion. A few minutes from where I live in the UK we had witch trials, girls locked up in mental institutions for life just for getting pregnant out of wedlock and accused of being possessed.

Lets not judge others by our standards. Change takes time.
But we can encourage change by pointing out where it needs to happen.
 

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Part of the atavism in Pakistani culture is a reaction to what the natives view as Western interference in traditional values.
 

Dante

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It's easy to espouse Western liberal values from a Western liberal country, but Pakistan is so far from that it's unreal.

Any government's first duty is to the stability of the nation. Pakistan is having a hard enough time maintaining that, let alone attempting to enforce fair and just social laws. That's where eduction is supposed to come in and, unfortunately, much of that is financed by Saudi Wahabists.
 

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You'll find hardly anyone has ever been killed for blasphemy.

There are already laws in place for rioters.

There are laws against defamation, restrictions in freedom of speech, libel, and censorship in all Western nations. We really need to look closer to our own backyards before calling others out.
People are sentenced to death for it. That, whether or not they are executed, is deplorable. What's the government going to do with those people when there's a chance they'll be killed for commuting or annulling sentences as has happened previously?

In the US, there are quite narrow limitations on freedom of speech. There are restrictions on speech that would result in immediate violence or lawless action. Blasphemous, racist, or otherwise offensive speech are legal. Libel is nearly irrelevant for public figures with the burden being very high for the complainant.

If we are not to judge them by our standards, should we condemn them when someone shoot small children for wanting an education? They were just defending their delicate sensibilities when they shot Malala Yousafazi in the head. Coddling them will not lead to cultural development.
 

Sultan

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People are sentenced to death for it. That, whether or not they are executed, is deplorable. What's the government going to do with those people when there's a chance they'll be killed for commuting or annulling sentences as has happened previously?

In the US, there are quite narrow limitations on freedom of speech. There are restrictions on speech that would result in immediate violence or lawless action. Blasphemous, racist, or otherwise offensive speech are legal. Libel is nearly irrelevant for public figures with the burden being very high for the complainant.

If we are not to judge them by our standards, should we condemn them when someone shoot small children for wanting an education? They were just defending their delicate sensibilities when they shot Malala Yousafazi in the head. Coddling them will not lead to cultural development.
Racism is legal in USA? That's shocking if true!

No one is defending the shooting of Malala.
 

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Racism is legal in USA? That's shocking if true!

No one is defending the shooting of Malala.
Ideas, no matter how despicable, aren't illegal. Nor is the speech expressing them. While there are a number of radical racist groups in the US, they are effectively powerless. Trying to stamp out their beliefs would only encourage them. I found out recently that there is a Klan chapter within 50-100 miles of where I live, but I have never heard about it in 20+ years because they don't do anything.

I'm not saying that you were, but we can't set aside our societal standards because their are different. There is no will within Pakistan to change. If anything, there's a desire to regress to previous social norms.
 

Sultan

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Ideas, no matter how despicable, aren't illegal. Nor is the speech expressing them. While there are a number of radical racist groups in the US, they are effectively powerless. Trying to stamp out their beliefs would only encourage them. I found out recently that there is a Klan chapter within 50-100 miles of where I live, but I have never heard about it in 20+ years because they don't do anything.
Yes it's legal. There shouldn't be laws against thoughts, no matter how despicable they are.
I'm genuinely shocked how you guys are excusing freedom of speech or thought as an excuse to use racist language. Personally it's despicable not having a law against racism.
 

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I'm genuinely shocked how you guys are excusing freedom of speech or thought as an excuse to use racist language. Personally it's despicable not having a law against racism.
Who decides what qualifies? The problem with laws against speech and thoughts is that right now, we might agree with what a government want a to restrict. But there will come a time where that isn't the case.
 

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I'm genuinely shocked how you guys are excusing freedom of speech or thought as an excuse to use racist language. Personally it's despicable not having a law against racism.
To be fair Sultan, I do think that sentencing someone to death for saying mean things is a lot worse than allowing mean things to be said.

Having vile thoughts isn't illegal. People are entitled to them, however cretinous it makes them.
 

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I'm genuinely shocked how you guys are excusing freedom of speech or thought as an excuse to use racist language. Personally it's despicable not having a law against racism.
:confused: We are not excusing it. It's just not illegal. Racism is quite obviously despicable, but that doesn't mean it can be legislated out of existence. Many racist actions are illegal, but how would you go about making being a racist illegal? Thought police? If you make racist speech illegal, what else would you include? There is no right not to be offended.
 

JustAFan

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I'm genuinely shocked how you guys are excusing freedom of speech or thought as an excuse to use racist language. Personally it's despicable not having a law against racism.

There are plenty of laws against racism in the US, they have not made racism go away but many of them have helped improve the situation, still a long way to go. People are able to seek restitution when they have been victims of racism (ie denied a job, schooling, etc). We have hate crimes laws, so that should say some KKK guys decide to lynch someone in part or only because of that persons race, they can have additional charges and stiffer sentencing brought against them. The courts, legislature and society in the US have spent a couple of centuries and are still trying to define where the line to free speech ends. It is not easy to balance everyone's rights. Even the right to be a complete ignorant idiot.

However, in the delicate balance that is maintained with regards to freedom of speech, offensive statements are at times protected. Whether we like it or not.
 

Sultan

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To be fair Sultan, I do think that sentencing someone to death for saying mean things is a lot worse than allowing mean things to be said.

Having vile thoughts isn't illegal. People are entitled to them, however cretinous it makes them.
:confused:

Why would I, or any sane person would ever think otherwise?