Panorama: Man United - Into the Red, BBC One, Tuesday, 8 June

Kraftwerker

Formerly RedAddict
Joined
May 30, 2008
Messages
13,871
Location
We can't stop here. This is bat country.
Your faults with Fergie are based on such trivial things though. I mean a dispute over a racehorse. Do you really know the ins and outs of it, or the character of the other men involved. Maybe they were actually being twats and Fergie took a stand.

You really think Fergie's out to make as much money as he can from the club, when his wage is nowhere near the biggest in football, despite the fact he probably deserves to earn double any other manager, and could command and receive it from the club should he so wish.
 

Transfer United Till I Die

I am totally in the know, honest
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
7,627
Location
pessimismium
I don't think people in football should be excused their mistakes because of who they are but nor do I think they can be held to a moral standard higher than we expect of ourselves. It doesn't really help to pass judgement on things we don't even know the real facts on.

I've never really got this fergie lining his own pockets thing. Socialist as a young man or not I don't see anyone turning down the benefits of reaching the top in their chosen career.
 

Stavros

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 22, 2009
Messages
2,620
Location
I dont exist. I'm just a figment of your imaginati
fredthered said:
No I am questioning how a so called socialist who understands the working class, can sit there and watch as working class people are priced out of something that was built to benefit the community. All so his bosses can make a huge wedge out of it, some of which no doubt will find its way into his pocket in way of bonuses and sweeteners..
Click to expand...
:lol: ............ :nono:

Maybe you need to have a rethink on what you are basing your arguements on. This is precicely what I meant in my other thread. You hatred for Glazers is clouding your love for United.

What the feck do you want Fergie to do? If he speaks against the Glazers then the only options are to resign or be thrown out...and both of them would throwthe club into a turmoil from which it may never recover.

Instead I believe he has opted to stick with the club (not Glazers) and smooth things out, which is to be appreciated.
 

fredthered

I want Peter Kenyon back
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
17,845
Location
UK
Stavros said:
:lol: ............ :nono:

Maybe you need to have a rethink on what you are basing your arguements on. This is precicely what I meant in my other thread. You hatred for Glazers is clouding your love for United.
Click to expand...
Thats the whole point, my love for United is bigger than anyone one person or individual.

I couldnt care less how many trophies Fergie wins, or how many trebles he achieves. When fans are being priced out because of the debts, thats to the detriment of the club. Not Fergie, not the players, not the team. The club.

And if Fergie can idly sit by and watch as people who have been the lifeblood of the club are priced out, and actually condone it, then sorry, he's not the man I thought he was, and he's certainly going against his socialist principles by saying that he doesnt see anything wrong with having greedy owners who fleece the fans for millions, all to line their own pockets.

The fans were there long before Fergie, and they will be United supporters long after hes gone. Every single one of those fans that gives up season tickets or cannot afford to go anymore is a loss to the club.

I dont understand how anyone can even justify or attempt to justify that. Least of all the manager who we assume is the one person that should care most about the club.

If it were me, and my boss came to me and told me he would be running the business in such a way that it went against everything I stood for, I wouldnt care less, I'd walk out there and then. No job is worth selling my principles for.
 

fredthered

I want Peter Kenyon back
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
17,845
Location
UK
Kraftwerker said:
Fergie may have been a socialist but that doesn't mean he doesn't believe in normal economics, supply and demand etc. We're not talking about healthcare, housing, or benefits here.
Click to expand...
No we are talking about an institution set up for the working people of Manchester to enjoy.

So much for that idea huh...
 

Kraftwerker

Formerly RedAddict
Joined
May 30, 2008
Messages
13,871
Location
We can't stop here. This is bat country.
fredthered said:
No we are talking about an institution set up for the working people of Manchester to enjoy.

So much for that idea huh...
Click to expand...
What has that got to do with Fergie and socialism?

It's a football club that has always sought to make money from the fans in order to be successful. I don't think it was ever set up to be a charity though.

Personally, I'm all for affordable tickets, but it's a difficult one. You can't keep under-pricing your tickets, without risking falling behind your rivals who will continue to charge high prices (most of them are already charging alot more as it is).
 

fredthered

I want Peter Kenyon back
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
17,845
Location
UK
Kraftwerker said:
What has that got to do with Fergie and socialism?

It's a football club that has always sought to make money from the fans in order to be successful. I don't think it was ever set up to be a charity though.

Personally, I'm all for affordable tickets, but it's a difficult one. You can't keep under-pricing your tickets, without risking falling behind your rivals who will continue to charge high prices (most of them are already charging alot more as it is).
Click to expand...
So the club is making money from the fans to make WHO succesful exactly ?
 

fredthered

I want Peter Kenyon back
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
17,845
Location
UK
Kraftwerker said:
You can't keep under-pricing your tickets, without risking falling behind your rivals who will continue to charge high prices (most of them are already charging alot more as it is).
Click to expand...
Strangely enough not having the same money to spend on players as other teams, because you are paying it all to banks, has pretty much the same effect.
 

fredthered

I want Peter Kenyon back
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
17,845
Location
UK
RedRichio said:
Yeah, the people of London, Birmingham, Newcastle and all points in between are so lucky to have clubs that still hold on tight to those principals.......
Click to expand...
You dont see their managers with a "I am a socialist, but if people cant afford it then tough shit.. thats the way business works" attitude.
 

Allforone

Full Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Messages
11,614
Location
United could spend £85million on David De Gea, Phi
fredthered said:
No we are talking about an institution set up for the working people of Manchester to enjoy.

So much for that idea huh...
Click to expand...
Our season ticket prices are still the cheapest of the so called big 4 clubs in England and way behind the most expensive in the country.....Liverpool’s cheapest season ticket costs a lot more than ours for example so dont come back with the London clubs argument

Our ticket prices have always been great value for money and consistently the cheapest around to watch football of all the so called big clubs, even after the ticket rises of the last few years were still charging less than the other big clubs...

Some would argue our ticket prices were extremely low for many years and far to generous, of course the matchgoer isn’t going to like ticket prices going up but when you compare them with the rest their still better value for money than the others.

As for your attacks on Sir Alex Ferguson as a person (all born out of the fact he wont blindly follow your hate glazer campaign and he wont say what you want to hear on the issue of our finances) is shocking really, for what that mans done for Manchester United its utterly disgraceful actually, i think many have said it and many others starting to see it, your Hatred of the owners and all things glazer has well overtaken your love of the club these days to the extent now where your criticising the nature of a man who’s given this club more than anyone could have dreamt.
 

Stavros

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 22, 2009
Messages
2,620
Location
I dont exist. I'm just a figment of your imaginati
fredthered said:
If it were me, and my boss came to me and told me he would be running the business in such a way that it went against everything I stood for, I wouldnt care less, I'd walk out there and then. No job is worth selling my principles for.
Click to expand...
Would you still do that, if it means causing chaos to the club millions love? Cause that's what will happen if Fergie quits.
 

Transfer United Till I Die

I am totally in the know, honest
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
7,627
Location
pessimismium
For the purposes of what fred is saying it doesn't matter. He likes to mention Leeds periodically and their debt was amassed in the same way. Of course I'd rather the debt had arisen as a result of vast overspending on players but it's only the lesser of two pretty big evils.
 

UnitedRoadRed

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
5,761
Location
Manchester
RedRichio said:
For the purposes of what fred is saying it doesn't matter. He likes to mention Leeds periodically and their debt was amassed in the same way. Of course I'd rather the debt had arisen as a result of vast overspending on players but it's only the lesser of two pretty big evils.
Click to expand...
No, Leeds debt was amassed by buying players they couldn't really afford, borrowing against future season ticket sales and having a manager that couldn't deliver.
 

Transfer United Till I Die

I am totally in the know, honest
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
7,627
Location
pessimismium
UnitedRoadRed said:
Think we might be at crossed purposes here - are you compared the Leeds debt to Barca's or to ours?
Click to expand...
Sorry, I think we are, yes. I know our clubs debt is different to most, I was just countering freds assertion that other clubs aren't shelling a lot of their income on servicing debts. In fact most clubs in the uk, Spain and Italy are doing so to varying extents.
 

UnitedRoadRed

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
5,761
Location
Manchester
RedRichio said:
Sorry, I think we are, yes. I know our clubs debt is different to most, I was just countering freds assertion that other clubs aren't shelling a lot of their income on servicing debts. In fact most clubs in the uk, Spain and Italy are doing so to varying extents.
Click to expand...
I think the key difference for us is how we got in debt in the first place.
Leeds gambled and failed, it's pretty clear cut. Ridsdale bet the farm on white winning and red won.

It's how Barca's debt came about that I'm particularly interested in, especially in an environment of fan ownership.
 

Moriarty

Full Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
19,155
Location
Reichenbach Falls
Kraftwerker said:
Fergie may have been a socialist but that doesn't mean he doesn't believe in normal economics, supply and demand etc. We're not talking about healthcare, housing, or benefits here.
Click to expand...
I notice you're using the past tense here. However, Fergie's personal beliefs and politics are tempered by his realism in that he has to work within the prevailing system.
 

Stavros

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 22, 2009
Messages
2,620
Location
I dont exist. I'm just a figment of your imaginati
fredthered said:
Strangely enough not having the same money to spend on players as other teams, because you are paying it all to banks, has pretty much the same effect.
Click to expand...
Is that an assumption on your part cause Fergie has not spent the Ronaldo money yet?

If Fergie says the market is over inflated to make any decent purchase, then I am satisfied to believe him. We did buy Berba and put in a bid for Benzema, but there is no way we can compete against Real or Shitty.
 

Transfer United Till I Die

I am totally in the know, honest
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
7,627
Location
pessimismium
UnitedRoadRed said:
I think the key difference for us is how we got in debt in the first place.
Leeds gambled and failed, it's pretty clear cut. Ridsdale bet the farm on white winning and red won.

It's how Barca's debt came about that I'm particularly interested in, especially in an environment of fan ownership.
Click to expand...
Well, like Madrid it comes from having a president who once elected can do what the feck he wants, including gashing borrowed money in an effort to get reelected.
 

UnitedRoadRed

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
5,761
Location
Manchester
Stavros said:
Is that an assumption on your part cause Fergie has not spent the Ronaldo money yet?

If Fergie says the market is over inflated to make any decent purchase, then I am satisfied to believe him. We did buy Berba and put in a bid for Benzema, but there is no way we can compete against Real or Shitty.
Click to expand...
Of course we can compete with City, how do you think we signed Berbatov?

Playing champions league football for the biggest club in Britain under Sir Alex Ferguson's guidance is still one hell of a draw for players. Others are more mercenary.
 

Stavros

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 22, 2009
Messages
2,620
Location
I dont exist. I'm just a figment of your imaginati
UnitedRoadRed said:
Of course we can compete with City, how do you think we signed Berbatov?

Playing champions league football for the biggest club in Britain under Sir Alex Ferguson's guidance is still one hell of a draw for players. Others are more mercenary.
Click to expand...
City was too new at that time and nobody took it that seriously. We lost Benzema to RM and will probably lose Silva to Shitty.

Does anybody here think that players do not want to sign for us because they may deem us financially unstable?
 

anver

Shart stop
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Messages
5,284
Location
Colombo. Sri-Lanka
Fred, that thing about fergie, coming from you, a loyalist United fan, is a bit OTT. Come on, and retract some of your words. your credibility is at stake.
 

UnitedRoadRed

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
5,761
Location
Manchester
Stavros said:
City was too new at that time and nobody took it that seriously. We lost Benzema to RM and will probably lose Silva to Shitty.

Does anybody here think that players do not want to sign for us because they may deem us financially unstable?
Click to expand...
That assumes we're in for Silva. If you read the papers, we're signing a cast of thousands, from freebies to £35m
 

GCHQ

Glazer Crevice Headquarters
Newbie
Joined
Feb 4, 2010
Messages
4,028
Location
Sir Alex Ferguson, Ben Foster, Hayley McQueen.....
UnitedRoadRed said:
Maybe not all of them.

What's your point anyway about posting that?
Click to expand...
That particular line about the club losing money without the sale of Ronaldo was all over the national media. Please don't try and make out like it wasn't.

And as we all know, that particular line like so many others that the media have spouted in recent months, was completely spurious.

Yer man Andersred admitted as much himself.
 

datura

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
11,330
Location
A substandard bag of meat and bones.
UnitedRoadRed said:
Maybe not all of them.

What's your point anyway about posting that?
Click to expand...
I'm not entirely sure. The papers were actually correct, the club would have made a financial loss (as reported in the Financial Accounts) without the profit from the Ronaldo sale.

As has been discussed in depth though, if you deduct the accouting adjustments then it doesn't look quite so bad.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.