The thread title is really annoying. It's like enquiring whether we should put shouldn't paper over cracks.
Papering over the cracks - yay or nay?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
That's a pretty low threshold for a good season! For me, that's an ok season. A good season will be a win in the FA Cup/ League Cup, SF of CL (unless we met Barca, Bayern or Madird before that) and top 2 in PL. That should be a good base for a challenge on all fronts next season.
Me too! And Shaw + Januzaj.
I don't think he is creating that sense at all. He did that last season, but I haven't heard him complain about his squad or his team even once this season. All he has done is protect his young players with statements like - they'll need time to adapt, he is young and young players do not have consistency etc.
He made 1 statement on our squad being in transition and said - you cannot expect the title from a squad in transition, but if we are there, we will grab it. That was in a positive context. His players are talking of winning games, and the expectation is that we need to win each game. I think the doom and gloom is more on this forum than in the squad or with the manager. Plus, LVG is a winner and would want to win the league (at least) and CL (if possible) with the last ever team he manages. He has 2 seasons to do this. He has made it clear that he will retire at the end of his contract.
Is this another false crack?
Or are we papering over the dawn?
Or are we papering over the dawn?
A season similar to Chelsea 13/14 would stand up is an good position to emulate their success 14/15. With the changes we've made over the last 14 months what you believe is a good season would be a phenomenal one. The season you mention would be a good season under Sir Alex (top 2, final of CL and a Cup), let alone where we are currently, where we've changed our entire team, which I think people tend to forget.
We are on the verge of witnessing something special....
I find this sentence the most illuminating here. The alternative view, and the one that the optimist takes, is that Blind has proven remarkably error free and our attack now has a hugely exciting new acquisition banging the goals in.
The caf in microcosm?
Blind has made loads of mistakes already, particularly against Gomis and Pelle. And nobody in their right mind would have expected Martial to make the impact he has. Our current position is as much down to luck as judgement.
By the way, I consider myself a realist. I'm critical where our weaknesses are obvious, but I'm also hopeful about the likes of Jones and Memphis.
By the way, I consider myself a realist. I'm critical where our weaknesses are obvious, but I'm also hopeful about the likes of Jones and Memphis.
Whereas those who see things differently are delusional?
Your use of language though belies your stance. It's an entirely negative interpretation of Martial's performances that he is holding our attack together. He's doing what strikers do and that is score goals. He's taken the opportunity presented to him, earlier than expected, and there's no luck involved in that whatsoever. It's an interesting narrative this one, and one that I've seen in the press, that somewhow we have accidentally hit the jackpot with Martial and that little credit is due to club and management.
As for Blind we all have reservations re his physicality and aerial ability in particular but those errors have been few and far between and I don't think anybody expects him to fill the cb position long term.
I'd also struggle with your description of yourself as a realist and yet you remain hopeful about Jones. That in itself is a contradiction.
Without Martial's pace and composure up front, we'd have fared much worse than we have done. Rooney's off form and we've been lucky that a teenager we bought for the future (according to the club and management itself) has hit the ground running. It's not like he's had a track record of scoring thus far in his career. 11 goals in 49 games before he came here. Memphis, Rooney and Mata hardly inspires confidence on current form. If Martial returns to his previous goalscoring form, that's what we'll be left with again.
Blind has made loads of mistakes. I don't know how you haven't seen them. The fact you don't rate Jones' potential belies your own pessimism.
Blind do so much good things in our buildup play that he can be forgiven one or two mistakes at defending. And what people usually also fail to notice is that Blind is the one in defense who is most responsible for putting opposition players under pressure often running much further than the rest of the back line which make us vulnerable and it looks like Blind is not doing his job but in most cases it lead to an opposition losing the ball.
My point is, LVG has had his 1 season of transition - and it was his choice to ship people off in this summer and start a 'second rebuilding'. Our definition of good season should not change because the team has changed substantially. I think a good cup run, a top 3 and a QF at Champs League is the logical expectation from this team - and therefore, that's an ok season. A good season needs to exceed this logical threshold.
But we do have Martial upfront. I don't get this argument. I'd suggest we saw enough in him to warrant the outlay and he has taken the opportunity presented to him, through our lack of other options, superbly. Earlier than expected yes but luck? No more so than when ever investing in young talent and more a clear vindication of our purchase of him.
Blind has also contributed greatly particularly through his ability on the ball. That's why he's there for now and until we have a left footed footballing cb available that LVG fancies.
We are 4 years down the line with Jones and that "potential" needs realising fast. This season in fact. I predicted last year that he would be gone at the end of this campaign and I stand by that due to erratic peformances and repeat injuries. He has started the season unavailable yet again.
You describe yourself as a realist but that really doesn't come across particularly when talking of being "hopeful" of Jones and of his "potential". This is wishful thinking surely, not realism, which looks at his track record and sees more reason to expect him to continue to disappoint than to make it. I think if we were to put him up for sale we might make, what, £10 - 12 million realistically? There's your guide there to where Jones is at. And you have to see the irony that Blind is being played out of position and a "mistake waiting to happen" partly because the likes of Jones haven't progressed?
An optimist expects. A realist hopes. Figure it out.
It wasn't speculation. I made no predictions about Jones. Christ!
Realists don't speculate.
Mr Tumble doesnt come on til 3am, Quiten down!
Being hopeful is speculating on the future. Being hopeful about Jones you are speculating that he's going to come good. And speculation is different from prediction.
Yours philsophically.
I disagree. It wasn't Van Gaal's choice to inherit a squad full of player's who were either so reliant on Fergie that they became completely useless once he left, which wasn't helped by their confidence being then shattered by Moyes. Or they were aging to the extent that they had to be replaced either way. To expect a manager to be able to completely replace a team in 12 months is too big an ask. Most managers would take 4-5 years to be able to rebuild a quality team from basically scratch (the fact that we could field a team of 11 players who've all only been at the club 18 months is testament to that).
You are either arguing that Van Gaal should have kept the likes of Welbeck, Evans, Rafael, Cleverley, Anderson, Nani, RVP etc and that these player's could form the spine of a title challenging team; or you are arguing that the manager should be able to take a team from 7th to competing for the title in 18 months. I disagree with both notions.
A good season given where we were and the work that needed doing is a comfortable top 3 finish, getting to the final in a domestic cup and getting the the last 16 of the CL. Bearing in mind the only outfield player's who are key to our success who were here 2 years ago are Smalling, Carrick & Rooney. The latter two of which are showing big signs of aging.
But you seem to have conveniently forgotten the other things he has said/done. Every pundit and most fans thought and probably still think we need a CB. Van Gaal decided not to get Otamendi and stuck with Blind. He benched a british transfer record player in favour of Young when none of us in here thought Young even had a future left at United. Let go of RVP, Falcao, Hernandez and replaced them with much younger players.
Isnt that what you are talking about?
We'll know at the crack of dawn.
One thing to consider, you're less likely to get your trousers pulled down if you have 70% of the ball. You might not win, you might even lose, but its hard to get battered when you have such a large amount possession.
I think we have the makings of a really good team. But aren't a really good team at the moment. Losing Shaw was a huge blow.
I don't think we will particularly struggle against the big teams, though. The way we play is arguably more suitable for the big games than the smaller teams who hit on the counter.
I don't think we will particularly struggle against the big teams, though. The way we play is arguably more suitable for the big games than the smaller teams who hit on the counter.
I wouldn't say what we've done as papering over the cracks. Compare this seasons' line-up to that of Moyes' season and it's very different, and some of the players that are the same seems better now (mainly thinking of Smalling). This has always been a re-build and we're nearly there now, we're looking good in every position, our only worry is lack of depth in some areas (up front and in defense). We don't even have that much deadwood left.
We aren't the best in the league for sure, but I don't think we're average either, even if our attacking pace may seem it.
We aren't the best in the league for sure, but I don't think we're average either, even if our attacking pace may seem it.
Pretty much this. If we're to mount a challenge for CL and PL we should look for CB and attacker as soon as January.
One or two injuries upfront and it will be pretty crap.
I thought United did really well against Southampton. Given we played with 10 men.
No it's not papering over anything. We needed a better striker to finish chances. We bought one. We're fine.
Probably not going to win the league but I'd be shocked (barring a major injury crisis) if we finished outside the top three.
Also the idea of 'better opposition' beating us just goes against the theme of Van Gaal's short reign. The big games aren't the problem.
No it's not papering over anything. We needed a better striker to finish chances. We bought one. We're fine.
Probably not going to win the league but I'd be shocked (barring a major injury crisis) if we finished outside the top three.
Also the idea of 'better opposition' beating us just goes against the theme of Van Gaal's short reign. The big games aren't the problem.
Hardly an aspiration is it.
City so far have roughly conceded a similar amount of chances to us but have created nearly double. We're definetely playing on fine margins and ideally we'd all like more attacking ambition but in the short term if making it tough for the opponent works then they'll be no complaints from me.
I am not arguing about the benefits of what Van Gaal has done over the last 2 summers. He needed to do this to build a long term team and I think he has purchased players very smartly. If he had got rid of Rooney and gotten a proven striker in, it would have been a perfect window for me.
What I'm arguing is that, Van Gaal has been backed by the club to deliver this season. Last season was a transition, and this season will also be one. However, I am not going to get over the moon about an average season because its 'transitory'. We are not arsenal or liverpool. I don't want to look at this team and start thinking that 'next season will be the good one'. If we have no trophies this season, but we are in with a shot at the title in March/ April I'd think it is a good season. But that means we should end up in the top 2. A comfortable 3rd is a par season.
I don't expect Van Gaal to take us to the title from 7th in 24 months. But, it would be an average performance (and not a good one) by LVG if we had no trophies after 2 full seasons. It's not bad however, and I'd still fully support LVG in his third season.
The point is everything is about context. This season will be a good season if we're comfortably in the top 3, compete in the domestic trophies and get into the last 16 of the Champions League. Those "achievements" wouldn't be successful in 2008 or 1999, but where we are at the moment that's clear progress and moving in the right direction.
Now I'm not saying we should all start celebrating once we achieve this, but we should see it at progress and another step towards where we should be. I don't think this would be "average" just because Van Gaal would've been here 2 seasons. Everything is about context and in terms of our squad, our manager, our backroom staff and our board room we have gone through a complete overhaul. Par to me this season to me would be 4th again but far more comfortably than last season, round of 16 in the Champions League and later knockout stages of the cups.
Next season for me is the season where we should be competing for the title (even if we end up 2nd), competing for domestic trophies (even if we are a losing finalist) and competing in Europe (only getting knocked out by 4-5 of the big teams).
Fair enough. To each his own. I agree with the context bit, and I will be very happy if we made progress this season in the terms you mentioned. However, inherently I find it tough to categorize that as a good season.
I know where you're coming from, I was 5 years old when I started watching games regularly which coincided perfectly with the first Premier League title, so all I've known for the 22 years since is success. If we didn't win the league it was a failure of a season, even if we won a domestic trophy.
It's impossible to instantly change that mentality and to be honest, I don't want to change it because my belief is still that going forward winning the league should be the main target and if we don't it's a failure. I gave Van Gaal a free pass last season (top 4 was my only expectation) because of where we were and I've given him to some degree another free pass this season based on the sheer turnover of players that he's overseen, most of which I completely agree with. The fact that he's had the gonads to tear our squad to bits has probably endeared him to me in the sense of allowing him to build something new.
However the flip side is that he has nowhere near the same leway next season, because it'll be 100% his team that's been built over 3 Summers.
Leicester last season after beating us went on a long barren run too.
If anyone papered over the cracks it was Fergie. I think he saw the writing on the wall, was happy to wring a championship out of that team and then move on. Age caught up with that team all at once and all of a sudden.
Giggs, Scholes, Rio, Vidic, RvP. That's the spine of the team all going downhill all at once together. Not only that, but Fergie made an enormous mistake with Pogba. Had he moved Pogba (who was clearly ready) into the first team and not brought Scholes out of retirement, can you imagine what our midfield would look like now?
It's a testament to Fergie as arguably the GOAT manager that he got a final championship out of that team, but the moment you took Fergie out of the equation and tacked another year of wear and tear onto those aging players and well Moyes got to see the results first hand. It was dire.
Giggs, Scholes, Rio, Vidic, RvP. That's the spine of the team all going downhill all at once together. Not only that, but Fergie made an enormous mistake with Pogba. Had he moved Pogba (who was clearly ready) into the first team and not brought Scholes out of retirement, can you imagine what our midfield would look like now?
It's a testament to Fergie as arguably the GOAT manager that he got a final championship out of that team, but the moment you took Fergie out of the equation and tacked another year of wear and tear onto those aging players and well Moyes got to see the results first hand. It was dire.
I do not expect us to with the PL or the CL. However I won't be suprised if we win the PL. I believe we are still couple of season away from being a regular CL semi-finalist. Big teams bring it on.. VG finds a way to win these.
Yayyyyy, top of the league.
I find it impossible to vote on this because the United team is such an enigma at the moment. Am just taking every game as it comes.
Providing we don't get a sudden injury crisis I don't think we'll be surprised by this team now, we have a good record under Van Gaal in the big games, he gets us well prepared and we do better against sides that don't completely sit back. We're making slow and steady progress, we've strengthened some big weaknesses since last year and I don't see us suddenly getting blown away when we play City, Arsenal and Chelsea. With a spine of De Gea, Smalling, Schweinsteiger and Martial we'll do alright this year.
I think we are genuinely a few top players away from challenging for the PL but some way from CL. The foundation that is being laid with this current team will see us winning something soon.
Yeh for the first time in a few seasons we seem to have a big key player in all areas of the pitch. Obviously it will depend on fitness and Martial's form as he's only 19 (
). Last time we had a strong spine throughout as I recall was 12/13 with De Gea, Ferdinand, Carrick and RVP. I'd argue this years is a level above that and the surrounding players are also of a higher standard so it's a promising side that's for sure.I am a little concerned. Martial is 19 which means he's going to have some terrible games as he is still learning. However, Rooney seems to be getting his form back and Mata is playing really well. Them too are key players and when they are on form we have the ability to beat any team in the world.