[Zehner]

In the same vein, I think Pogba doesn't have the same role as the players you mentioned. I think you even said it yourself that someone like Thiago has a fundamentally different role and playing style from him.

With that said I agree that he can continue to improve. Within the context of his own role in the team at Man Utd.

I think people don't really know which role he plays. Maybe he himself doesn't even know. As I read, Bruno's arrival lead to Pogba playing deeper, now in a role that's actually comparable to Thiago's for Bayern and that was the case in the last few matches I caught of United. So he's sort of trapped between the two roles mentioned earlier: The free roaming genius a la de Bruyne and the controlling midfielder pulling the strings. As it stands, he's not productive enough for the first and not nearly consistent enough for the second.

If you ask me, you'd improve if you'd have one of the midfielders I mentioned in his stead. One that controls the game, distributes the ball and brings others in the situations in which they can utilize their strengths. Or he just turns into that midfielder and suppresses his instinct to play the Hollywood pass the moment he spots it. He sure as hell has the potential to do so, he even had long sequences in the Sevilla match during which he looked exactly like such a player and it improved your overall play if you ask me.

 

[Zehner]

He has scored as many goals as Modric + Kroos combined since he joined ManUtd and as many if not more assists than both of them. Doesn't mean they are poor players, it's just that they have different roles and style of play.

How many midfielders apart from KdB contribute to goals and assists like Pogba does? He has around 50 goals + assists in league alone in 3 seasons, that's a ridiculous number for a midfielder.

KdB is the best midfielder in the world and he loses possession many times and takes many shots with xg of 0.02 or even lower. Means nothing as every player have different roles.

I don't think you can argue with his goal record since it is decent at best once you take penalties out of the equation.

And yes, KdB is unique and that is sort of my point. He's not really your typical midfielder since he's encouraged to attempt so many shots/through balls/crosses etc. His profile is different to any top midfielder out there who usually all have passing accuracies around 90% but significantly fewer scorers. The player closest in profile to him IMO is Pogba - or at least he used to be until Bruno arrived. Maybe now it's Bruno. However, in contrast to those two Pogba has never had that sort of productivity although he attempted apparently just as much.

 

[roonster09]

I don't think you can argue with his goal record since it is decent at best once you take penalties out of the equation.

And yes, KdB is unique and that is sort of my point. He's not really your typical midfielder since he's encouraged to attempt so many shots/through balls/crosses etc. His profile is different to any top midfielder out there who usually all have passing accuracies around 90% but significantly fewer scorers. The player closest in profile to him IMO is Pogba - or at least he used to be until Bruno arrived. Maybe now it's Bruno. However, in contrast to those two Pogba has never had that sort of productivity although he attempted apparently just as much.

Yes because Pogba also plays deeper role and as part of midfield 2. Other 2 don't.

Pogba has scored more goals than Modric + Kroos combined in league and Pogba misses most of the season in 2019-20. It's fair to say his goal scoring record is good.

45 goal contributions in 3 seasons in league alone is very good record however you slice it.

Anyways I'm done with this. You have very narrow view of how midfielders should play, shame Cleverley left too early, you would have rated him very highly.

All these points are repeated many times. Not sure why you keep repeating same posts again.

 

[Idxomer]

Pogba isn't much of a risk-taker comparing to De Bruyne and Bruno. His tactical adaptability is also quite underrated and for all of his talents, he usually keeps his ego in check and doesn't do a Gerrard when his team's losing. The perception of his game is different because 1) People have been watching him to confirm their biases against him in the last 4 years 2) He's been playing in a slightly above average team in the same period.
3) His position had been tinkered with a lot from his managers, and again contrary to popular belief, it's not to get the best out of him but usually to mask his partners and the defenders' shortcomings.

 

[romufc]

We have seen glimpses of Pogba in his first season when we won the Europa, then his relationship with Jose went pear shape, then Ole brought him back and injured along with doubts on his future.

This is the first season in a while, we will have a saga free summer in relation to Pogba, if he can stay fit, he will be one of the most important players for this club.

He may have the ability to play as a 10 but we have Bruno who has a bit more to him in that position which means Pogba playing in a double pivot. He may take a few risks, but if he is firing, he will create goal scoring chances from nothing in that position, like he has done many times this season.

Examples can include, ball to Rashford V Chelsea home, Spurs away, Southampton home, SU home. He is capable of pinging a ball to any of the forward.

 

[Berbasbullet]

I want to see Pogba get better at controlling a game, he has the passing, the dribbling, the strength to dominate but I want to see him put in Scholes style performances where everything is running through him.

Fabulous player, glad he’s staying.

 

[Rozay]

I don't think you can argue with his goal record since it is decent at best once you take penalties out of the equation.

And yes, KdB is unique and that is sort of my point. He's not really your typical midfielder since he's encouraged to attempt so many shots/through balls/crosses etc. His profile is different to any top midfielder out there who usually all have passing accuracies around 90% but significantly fewer scorers. The player closest in profile to him IMO is Pogba - or at least he used to be until Bruno arrived. Maybe now it's Bruno. However, in contrast to those two Pogba has never had that sort of productivity although he attempted apparently just as much.

If you’re taking penalties away Bruno has been no more productive than Pogba at all. And Pogba has the same sort of scoring record as De Bruyne since they’ve been in the PL. And De Bruyne scores penalties too.

I think this sort of analysis over a longer period is hard as Pogba has played different roles over his time here. Free-roaming, deep-lying - and both come with different levels of expectation in terms of output and ball retention.

But also, it’s important to not compare every individual directly. And Pogba is famously an enigma as a player, as he has a unique mismatch of qualities that make him hard to compare with others. I don’t really see his particular blend elsewhere, and it even confuses me at times! Maybe Milinkovic-Savic perhaps. His physical profile and his technical profile would likely be seen as contradictory to many. You have mentioned Thiago and Modric a lot for example in comparison - but there is no other version of them in the game that has the same physical profile as Pogba. There are many other versions of themselves who have the same physical limitations that they do. I think Pogba even confuses his managers with his mismatch of qualities. If you look at him, you could say he has the potential to do both a Fellaini role and a Verratti role! You have raised some interesting points about how he seems to be doing the Modric role in a De Bruyne sort of way almost. I think a team needs to just decide whether they think the rough and smooth is worth it with Pogba - because I can’t see him changing. He’s not a 20 goal midfielder, but he’s also totally wasted being asked to sit back and play ‘sensible’ all game. It would make everything easier for everyone if he just scored an extra 7 or 8 goals a season. As it stands, he is in a space where he can’t really get away with being weak at any phases of midfield play, because a different person would expect a different version of him.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

He have been playing ever-going changes of different roles and positions since he joined.

Seasons 16/17 to 18/19
(always changes between these two main roles throughout each seasons)

1. Dual CDM - The more passing and attacking role of the duo but with same discipline and defensive workrate. Deep-lying playmaker. Slightly free license to attack at times, depending on situations.
2. LCM in midfield of three - Main attacking and playmaker roles of the trio. Free movements.

Season 19/20
(finally one strict role)

1. Dual CDM - deep-lying playmaker, but with greater emphasize on discipline and defensive workrate, and less attacking. Movements are definitely more restricted.

Never settle on one role except the recent season which hugely affected his goal stats.

	app	G - p	G/app	A	A/app
2016/17	51	9 - 1 = 8	0.16	6	0.12
2017/18	37	6	0.16	12	0.32
2018/19	47	16 - 8 = 8	0.17	11	0.23
2019/20	22	1	0.05	4	0.18

Definitely more productive by scoring more goal when he's performing a more attacking and freer roles, yet assisting and chances creation are basically the same in whatever roles. No stats for the chances creation to prove this though. If anyone can find the CC stats, I'm confident it'll be roughly consistent. 16/17 we had finishing issues, so his assist rate is lowered. 17/18 is a good scoring season hence his peakest assist stat.

Hopefully upcoming season will be better?

 

[charlenefan]

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[roonster09]

If you’re taking penalties away Bruno has been no more productive than Pogba at all. And Pogba has the same sort of scoring record as De Bruyne since they’ve been in the PL. And De Bruyne scores penalties too.

I think this sort of analysis over a longer period is hard as Pogba has played different roles over his time here. Free-roaming, deep-lying - and both come with different levels of expectation in terms of output and ball retention.

But also, it’s important to not compare every individual directly. And Pogba is famously an enigma as a player, as he has a unique mismatch of qualities that make him hard to compare with others. I don’t really see his particular blend elsewhere, and it even confuses me at times! Maybe Milinkovic-Savic perhaps. His physical profile and his technical profile would likely be seen as contradictory to many. You have mentioned Thiago and Modric a lot for example in comparison - but there is no other version of them in the game that has the same physical profile as Pogba. There are many other versions of themselves who have the same physical limitations that they do. I think Pogba even confuses his managers with his mismatch of qualities. If you look at him, you could say he has the potential to do both a Fellaini role and a Verratti role! You have raised some interesting points about how he seems to be doing the Modric role in a De Bruyne sort of way almost. I think a team needs to just decide whether they think the rough and smooth is worth it with Pogba - because I can’t see him changing. He’s not a 20 goal midfielder, but he’s also totally wasted being asked to sit back and play ‘sensible’ all game. It would make everything easier for everyone if he just scored an extra 7 or 8 goals a season. As it stands, he is in a space where he can’t really get away with being weak at any phases of midfield play, because a different person would expect a different version of him.

Good post. Also there is a clever play with stats and percentages. For example, if a player completes 8/10 passes and other player completes 9/10 passes, percentage wise there is a difference of 10% but in raw numbers it's just 1 more misplaced pass.

On an average midfielders play around 70 passes, if one player completes 60 passes and other player completes 65 passes then percentage wise it's 85% completion vs 92%. But it's just 5 more completed passes and no one even knows in which area those extra passes are completed. Usually deeper midfielders plays lot of short passes with CBs.

I tried to take few relevant stats for the players compared (last 3 seasons)

Some of the criticism is weird as the points raised are Pogba vs mix of 3-4 midfielders.

He doesn't dribble more than Modric/Thiago, he doesn't create as many chances as Kroos, his goal scoring record is no better than KdB . It's all mashed up, cherry picking better stats from 3-4 CMs and then point out how Pogba is not better than them.

Anyways, Pogba misplaces around 5-6 passes more than other 3 CMs on an average but his quality of chances is always better than other 3 midfielders, this season and last , his expected assists per 90 mins is almost same as other 3 combined.

Is 5-6 passes worth what Pogba brings to the team?

Goals from Open play
Pogba	13​
Kroos + Modric	16​
Kroos + Thiago	16​
Modric + Thiago	14​

Assists (Open Play)
Pogba	21​
Kroos + Modric + Thiago	26​
Kroos + Modric	19​
Kroos + Thiago	12​
Modric + Thiago	21​

XA/90
Pogba	0.56​
Kroos + Modric	0.69​
Kroos + Thiago	0.55​
Modric + Thiago	0.64​

Btw, again this is not to say Pogba > any midfielder, just to point out how midfielders are different and contribute is so many other ways. There is no need to take one particular attribute from each midfielder to compare them with Pogba.

 

[Zehner]

If you’re taking penalties away Bruno has been no more productive than Pogba at all. And Pogba has the same sort of scoring record as De Bruyne since they’ve been in the PL. And De Bruyne scores penalties too.

I think this sort of analysis over a longer period is hard as Pogba has played different roles over his time here. Free-roaming, deep-lying - and both come with different levels of expectation in terms of output and ball retention.

But also, it’s important to not compare every individual directly. And Pogba is famously an enigma as a player, as he has a unique mismatch of qualities that make him hard to compare with others. I don’t really see his particular blend elsewhere, and it even confuses me at times! Maybe Milinkovic-Savic perhaps. His physical profile and his technical profile would likely be seen as contradictory to many. You have mentioned Thiago and Modric a lot for example in comparison - but there is no other version of them in the game that has the same physical profile as Pogba. There are many other versions of themselves who have the same physical limitations that they do. I think Pogba even confuses his managers with his mismatch of qualities. If you look at him, you could say he has the potential to do both a Fellaini role and a Verratti role! You have raised some interesting points about how he seems to be doing the Modric role in a De Bruyne sort of way almost. I think a team needs to just decide whether they think the rough and smooth is worth it with Pogba - because I can’t see him changing. He’s not a 20 goal midfielder, but he’s also totally wasted being asked to sit back and play ‘sensible’ all game. It would make everything easier for everyone if he just scored an extra 7 or 8 goals a season. As it stands, he is in a space where he can’t really get away with being weak at any phases of midfield play, because a different person would expect a different version of him.

I generally agree with that. He's very hard to categorize since his profile is indeed very unique and he has played multiple roles in midfield. Which makes it hard to back up arguments with stats since they are hardly comparable between seasons.

In the last thread, I posted a video and gave minute marks of his actions that frustrated me. That's the thing for me. He sometimes takes decisions I just don't get and they've got nothing to do with the role he plays. He could be an 80% passing midfielder and Id be fine with that if he cut away those things. But sometimes I watch him play and I have the feeling he just turned off his brain at this very moment. Thing is, attacking roles are more forgiving with short periods without focus but in the midfield you need to maintain your concentration all the time (which is why I think players need more maturity in there and sometimes break through later) and that's what bothers me with him - especially since I don't get the feeling that he sees that as an issue. He doesn't get angry with himself if he played a avoidable misplaced pass but just continues as if nothing happened.

But maybe you're right and it has to do with expectations that differ broadly for him since he's been deployed in so many different roles. In the end it's just my subjective impression but I believe you'll have a hard time becoming a real title contender with him since his habit of gifting possession to the opponent too easily haunts you against teams that are good on the ball and make it very difficult for you to win it back. Against City or Bayern, every loss of possession really hurts.

Good post. Also there is a clever play with stats and percentages. For example, if a player completes 8/10 passes and other player completes 9/10 passes, percentage wise there is a difference of 10% but in raw numbers it's just 1 more misplaced pass.

On an average midfielders play around 70 passes, if one player completes 60 passes and other player completes 65 passes then percentage wise it's 85% completion vs 92%. But it's just 5 more completed passes and no one even knows in which area those extra passes are completed. Usually deeper midfielders plays lot of short passes with CBs.

I tried to take few relevant stats for the players compared (last 3 seasons)

Some of the criticism is weird as the points raised are Pogba vs mix of 3-4 midfielders.

He doesn't dribble more than Modric/Thiago, he doesn't create as many chances as Kroos, his goal scoring record is no better than KdB . It's all mashed up, cherry picking better stats from 3-4 CMs and then point out how Pogba is not better than them.

Anyways, Pogba misplaces around 5-6 passes more than other 3 CMs on an average but his quality of chances is always better than other 3 midfielders, this season and last , his expected assists per 90 mins is almost same as other 3 combined.

Is 5-6 passes worth what Pogba brings to the team?

Goals from Open play
Pogba	13​
Kroos + Modric	16​
Kroos + Thiago	16​
Modric + Thiago	14​

Assists (Open Play)
Pogba	21​
Kroos + Modric + Thiago	26​
Kroos + Modric	19​
Kroos + Thiago	12​
Modric + Thiago	21​

XA/90
Pogba	0.56​
Kroos + Modric	0.69​
Kroos + Thiago	0.55​
Modric + Thiago	0.64​

Btw, again this is not to say Pogba > any midfielder, just to point out how midfielders are different and contribute is so many other ways. There is no need to take one particular attribute from each midfielder to compare them with Pogba.

IMO, that's not a clever play with percentages and stats but a reflection of the way it is. I even pointed that out in one of my previous posts. Yes, it's just 5 misplaced passes less but it essentially halves your possession losses in midfield. For me, it just goes to show how impressive it is if a player racks up 93+% passing accuracy. The difference between 95% accuracy and 92% is bigger than between 92% and 89%. You need to be focused all the time in order to achieve such stats. A player like Pogba loses more than twice as many balls as Kroos - that's the truly impressive stuff if you ask me, especially since Kroos maintains a similar key pass and long ball ratio as Pogba. It's the very top percentile and such a midfield really suffocates you because they are incredbile at ball retention.

But you're right, Pogba ultimately has a higher likelihood of assists and that's a very good point. I don't even want him to change that and become a Kroos clone. However, by watching him play I get the feeling he still has much room for improvement regarding his decision making since he takes too many passes that are destined to be possession losses. IMO he could maintain these assist stats but simultaneously improve his passing accuracy by 2-3% at least by cutting removing this stuff from his game.

 

[roonster09]

IMO, that's not a clever play with percentages and stats but a reflection of the way it is. I even pointed that out in one of my previous posts. Yes, it's just 5 misplaced passes less but it essentially halves your possession losses in midfield. For me, it just goes to show how impressive it is if a player racks up 93+% passing accuracy. The difference between 95% accuracy and 92% is bigger than between 92% and 89%. You need to be focused all the time in order to achieve such stats. A player like Pogba loses more than twice as many balls as Kroos - that's the truly impressive stuff if you ask me, especially since Kroos maintains a similar key pass and long ball ratio as Pogba. It's the very top percentile and such a midfield really suffocates you because they are incredbile at ball retention.

But you're right, Pogba ultimately has a higher likelihood of assists and that's a very good point. I don't even want him to change that and become a Kroos clone. However, by watching him play I get the feeling he still has much room for improvement regarding his decision making since he takes too many passes that are destined to be possession losses. IMO he could maintain these assist stats but simultaneously improve his passing accuracy by 2-3% at least by cutting removing this stuff from his game.

He completes 67/78 passes so thats around 85%. To achieve 88% he should complete just 2 more passes, it hardly makes any difference. I'm fine with him losing 5-6 passes more than Kroos, Modric, Thiago as long as he creates better quality chances (which he does by good margin).

His goals, assists, xA/90 mins all paint the picture that most know and why he is different. Like I said, 2-3 midfielders best attributes are mashed up and compared with Pogba. Yes he doesn't complete passes like Kroos but he creates much better chances and dribbles than Kroos, not to forget goals and assists.

You can pick stats like pass completion, long passes and say how Kroos is better, then you can also pick stats like goals, assists, quality of chances created, dribbles and say how Pogba is better.

End of the day, I don't think those extra 2 passes completed will make any difference but the quality of chances, his drive from midfield, risky moves when he pulls them off are worth it and makes the difference.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

He completes 67/78 passes so thats around 85%. To achieve 88% he should complete just 2 more passes, it hardly makes any difference. I'm fine with him losing 5-6 passes more than Kroos, Modric, Thiago as long as he creates better quality chances (which he does by good margin).

His goals, assists, xA/90 mins all paint the picture that most know and why he is different. Like I said, 2-3 midfielders best attributes are mashed up and compared with Pogba. Yes he doesn't complete passes like Kroos but he creates much better chances and dribbles than Kroos, not to forget goals and assists.

You can pick stats like pass completion, long passes and say how Kroos is better, then you can also pick stats like goals, assists, quality of chances created, dribbles and say how Pogba is better.

End of the day, I don't think those extra 2 passes completed will make any difference but the quality of chances, his drive from midfield, risky moves when he pulls them off are worth it and makes the difference.

The passing is fine, usually he makes fantastic decisions. The issue for me is he needs to stop getting dispossessed so easily, looks at his weakest when he tries to play his way out of danger.

 

[Zoo]

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[ash_86]

Feck

 

[kouroux]

The passing is fine, usually he makes fantastic decisions. The issue for me is he needs to stop getting dispossessed so easily, looks at his weakest when he tries to play his way out of danger.

In dangerous areas specially, that's my main gripe with him. I'm happy with the rest of his football.

 

[sammsky1]

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Oh dear. Hope he recovers very quickly.

 

[MetoTTT]

I've just read it on RMC. No transfers, Pogba positive for COVID 19...

 

[Cassidy]

Ha you couldnt make up our summer so far. To be honest its good as I dont think he or any United player should be playing in these internationals

 

[Adisa]

So how long are we looking at before he returns?

 

[jackal&hyde]

That's at least two weeks without training and possible more then a month before he can play, if everything goes well. Hope Lingard is on form because we don't need transfers.

 

[Cassidy]

That's at least two weeks without training and possible more then a month before he can play, if everything goes well. Hope Lingard is on form because we don't need transfers.

Why more than a month? He can likely train in isolation as well

 

[slored1]

Wish him a quick recovery. Hopefully he'll be allright.

 

[RonaldoVII]

That kid best isolate..

 

[jackal&hyde]

Why more than a month? He can likely train in isolation as well

Train while sick? Maybe, but i doubt it. It's probably 2 weeks rest till tested negative; after that however long it takes to get match fit.

 

[Mercurial]

So how long are we looking at before he returns?

2 weeks of isolation given all goes complication free

 

[Tmac1090]

Wishing him a quick recovery!

The start of the season is looking good, our captain is "arrested", Pogba got the rona and no new signings.

 

[AltiUn]

He took his job as "the virus" too literally.

Wishing him a quick recovery.

 

[Bubz27]

Some of you going on about United. Just hope Pogba recovers fully and stays well.

 

[SATA]

So where did he got it from? Where did he go for his holiday?

 

[OleBoiii]

What a summer we're having so far...

Speedy recovery, please.

 

[RonaldoVII]

Train while sick? Maybe, but i doubt it. It's probably 2 weeks rest till tested negative; after that however long it takes to get match fit.

He may have no symptoms.

 

[NoMidfielders]

Another bit of bad news, just what we needed at the moment. Hope he gets well soon.

 

[Phil]

Ugh I hoe he's ok and has no long lasting impact of it

 

[GwilDor]

Wishing him a quick recovery!

The start of the season is looking good, our captain is "arrested", Pogba got the rona and no new signings.

You can’t make this shit up, can you? Maybe we should make a thread predicting the next news. I’ll start: - Lingard, Martial, Rashford and Fred quaranteened after Pogba’s positive test.

 

[bosnian_red]

Hope he's fine. This summer is a disaster for us so far

 

[kouroux]

Train while sick? Maybe, but i doubt it. It's probably 2 weeks rest till tested negative; after that however long it takes to get match fit.

He could be without symptoms and be 100% fine to still train on his own.

 

[jackal&hyde]

He may have no symptoms.

I hope so. Wish him the best!

 

[Rado_N]

For the love of fecking Christ when will people learn how performance threads work?

News like this = start a new thread.

 

[VP89]

Hope its asymptomatic, for anyone who gets it really