Paul Scholes the pundit

MoskvaRed

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The Serie A had seen better times but there again, we utterly dominated the local pond for years, especially between SAF's first EPL title and up until Wenger signed with Arsenal were it was basically one horse race similarly to what Juventus are currently facing. With the only difference that while they reached the CL final twice in the past 5 years we used to get regularly thrashed in the CL. In fact the gap between the EPL and the Serie A back then was so big that an Alan Smith type of player (ie Ravanelli) could come to the EPL and absolutely own the place. That's how ridiculous it was back then

Juventus has a long history and had been consistently good in football for the past 88 years. They consistently won the title in every decade since the 30s. We're pretty much a two managers club with a staggering 18 EPL titles out of 20 won by just 2 managers. Our history between 67 and the 92s is nearly non existent. So seriously I can't see how we can say we're a bigger club to a club who had won more league titles then we have, more European trophies then we have, more FA cups then we have and had been far more consistent then we ever were. We're talking of a club who won a staggering 14 titles more then we did. That's not a frigging joke. If you subtract that from our tally then you would wipe out all SAF's title achievements + 1 (SAF won 13 EPL titles). In terms of trophies we would be at par with Aston Villa (+ 1 too as Villa won 7). That's hardly insignificant isn't it?

We're richer then Juventus and we've got more supporters then they do but we're nowhere near to them in terms of history and we're certainly nowhere near to them both in terms of developing managers and in terms of present side. Our best run was around 20-22 years. They have been dominating the league for nearly 90 years and seem to be extending that run for a while longer than that
One thing we have shared with Juventus is the recurring myth that, despite being one of the biggest clubs in the world, people in our own city are masochists and prefer supporting the other less successful* team.

*until recently anyway in Manchester
 

devilish

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One thing we have shared with Juventus is the recurring myth that, despite being one of the biggest clubs in the world, people in our own city are masochists and prefer supporting the other less successful* team.

*until recently anyway in Manchester
Well in Juventus term its a cruel financial ploy by the Agnelli family. They basically wanted to show Italy how financially shrewd they are by buying Juventus who had become the second most supported club in Turin and bring it back to its feet, turning it into a football super power.
 

Eckers99

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Not sure the bit in bold is true. Otherwise a fair point.
I think they were broadly similar in terms of rebuild. City had far more attacking talent but it looked like the whole defence needing changing, while we looked 4 or 5 decent attacking players away from genuinely challenging. Points-wise, from what I remember, there wasn't much in it between the 2 teams the season before the 2 new managers came in and it's impossible to deny the gulf that's opened up last season. And that's after the much-hyped Jose v Pep rivalry began - and fizzled out.

It aint pretty.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I think they were broadly similar in terms of rebuild. City had far more attacking talent but it looked like the whole defence needing changing, while we looked 4 or 5 decent attacking players away from genuinely challenging. Points-wise, from what I remember, there wasn't much in it between the 2 teams the season before the 2 new managers came in and it's impossible to deny the gulf that's opened up last season. And that's after the much-hyped Jose v Pep rivalry began - and fizzled out.

It aint pretty.
Which implies our defence didn’t need an overhaul. And history has proven that this was clearly not the case.

Central midfield needed to be built from scratch too. Carrick seemed to hit a wall, physically, the moment Mourinho took over, the jury’s still out on Hererra and neither Schneiderlin nor BFG have subsequenttly proven themselves United quality.

Basically the only position that was clearly fit for purpose when he arrived was our goalkeeper!
 

Kush

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He came to United because he is earning £350,000 per week mate.
You could be a journalist for Sun considering how good you're at plucking numbers out of thin air.

Meanwhile, the reality is somewhat different.
 

Stacks

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The Serie A had seen better times but there again, we utterly dominated the local pond for years, especially between SAF's first EPL title and up until Wenger signed with Arsenal were it was basically one horse race similarly to what Juventus are currently facing. With the only difference that while they reached the CL final twice in the past 5 years we used to get regularly thrashed in the CL. In fact the gap between the EPL and the Serie A back then was so big that an Alan Smith type of player (ie Ravanelli) could come to the EPL and absolutely own the place. That's how ridiculous it was back then

Juventus has a long history and had been consistently good in football for the past 88 years. They consistently won the title in every decade since the 30s. We're pretty much a two managers club with a staggering 18 EPL titles out of 20 won by just 2 managers. Our history between 67 and the 92s is nearly non existent. So seriously I can't see how we can say we're a bigger club to a club who had won more league titles then we have, more European trophies then we have, more FA cups then we have and had been far more consistent then we ever were. We're talking of a club who won a staggering 14 titles more then we did. That's not a frigging joke. If you subtract that from our tally then you would wipe out all SAF's title achievements + 1 (SAF won 13 EPL titles). In terms of trophies we would be at par with Aston Villa (+ 1 too as Villa won 7). That's hardly insignificant isn't it?

We're richer then Juventus and we've got more supporters then they do but we're nowhere near to them in terms of history and we're certainly nowhere near to them both in terms of developing managers and in terms of present side. Our best run was around 25 years. They have been dominating the league for nearly 90 years and seem to be extending that run for a while longer than that
Much of what you say is true, but I believe you have to live more in the recent climate. E.g. Chelsea are bigger than Liverpool now in my eyes because of what they have done "lately". Its nice to have a rich history but that's all it is, a rich history. And since the match fixing, Serie A hasn't recovered. Juve are seen as cheats with a deep history. Interest in Serie A has waned, leading to top players going to other leagues. I wonder how long they have been cheating their way to titles??
 

devilish

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Much of what you say is true, but I believe you have to live more in the recent climate. E.g. Chelsea are bigger than Liverpool now in my eyes because of what they have done "lately". Its nice to have a rich history but that's all it is, a rich history. And since the match fixing, Serie A hasn't recovered. Juve are seen as cheats with a deep history. Interest in Serie A has waned, leading to top players going to other leagues. I wonder how long they have been cheating their way to titles??
The match fixing scandal had little impact on the Serie A. In fact Inter was able to win the treble after that and Juventus bounce back from the Serie B to Serie A winners in a record time of 5 years. What heavily damaged the Serie A was the recession. Most clubs were heavily dependent on their sugar daddy and once the pinch was felt, these very clubs found themselves with owners who couldn't afford them anymore. This lead to a series of quick sell outs to rather shady characters who promised alot but delivered very little. Juventus were unaffected by it since they had been self sustainable since the 90s.

As said the Serie A is a one club pony these days but the same can be said about many leagues including the French league and the German league. We enjoyed such situation between our first league up until Wenger signed with Arsenal. I dare to say we remained so up till Mourinho was signed as we could have easily outspend Arsenal whenever we wanted to. With the only different that none of these leagues was able to reach the CL final twice in 5 years.

I think Juventus are a well run club and a great team for United to follow from a day to day administration point of view. However I assure you I don't like them. They are one of the most arrogant clubs in the world, a typical Italian aristocratic club that treat fans (especially foreign ones) badly. That explains why a club with such stature whose been on the high for the past 80 years lack the support base United has. United on the other hand are a more of a working class club who dearly love fans and make sure that their players treat them well. Having said that, its evident that both in terms of history and in terms of present they are a bigger club then we are. We top them in terms of finances and in terms of support base though.
 

amolbhatia50k

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This....many have said the same thing about Pogba on this forum....and he's somewhat right.
Indeed. For United Pogba has no doubt been a disappointment thus far. Winning a WC is a great achievement but it doesn't change his performances for us. Also, I'd expect a pundit to be realistic about his performances. If anything it's Jose who should be more upbeat and positive about Pogba to build confidence and harmony. His comments on Pogba were much stranger.
 

amolbhatia50k

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One thing that I found ironic about that interview was Scholes saying Mourinho looks miserable which is true but also came from a man who pretty much always looks miserable himself.
 

Stacks

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The match fixing scandal had little impact on the Serie A. In fact Inter was able to win the treble after that and Juventus bounce back from the Serie B to Serie A winners in a record time of 5 years. What heavily damaged the Serie A was the recession. Most clubs were heavily dependent on their sugar daddy and once the pinch was felt, these very clubs found themselves with owners who couldn't afford them anymore. This lead to a series of quick sell outs to rather shady characters who promised alot but delivered very little. Juventus were unaffected by it since they had been self sustainable since the 90s.

As said the Serie A is a one club pony these days but the same can be said about many leagues including the French league and the German league. We enjoyed such situation between our first league up until Wenger signed with Arsenal. I dare to say we remained so up till Mourinho was signed as we could have easily outspend Arsenal whenever we wanted to. With the only different that none of these leagues was able to reach the CL final twice in 5 years.

I think Juventus are a well run club and a great team for United to follow from a day to day administration point of view. However I assure you I don't like them. They are one of the most arrogant clubs in the world, a typical Italian aristocratic club that treat fans (especially foreign ones) badly. That explains why a club with such stature whose been on the high for the past 80 years lack the support base United has. United on the other hand are a more of a working class club who dearly love fans and make sure that their players treat them well. Having said that, its evident that both in terms of history and in terms of present they are a bigger club then we are. We top them in terms of finances and in terms of support base though.
Fair enough. Funnily, I had this debate with my colleague (a Liverpool fan) where I admitted that Juventus were the Man Utd of Italy, as he believed Milan were the biggest. I have always been fond of "the old lady" since they used to whoop us in the CL. you have provided sound arguments and reasoning
 

FlawlessThaw

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Indeed. For United Pogba has no doubt been a disappointment thus far. Winning a WC is a great achievement but it doesn't change his performances for us. Also, I'd expect a pundit to be realistic about his performances. If anything it's Jose who should be more upbeat and positive about Pogba to build confidence and harmony. His comments on Pogba were much stranger.
Agree. I’m less bothered by what Scholes says about Pogba than I am about what Mourinho says.
 

KM

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What the hell has he said wrong that he's getting criticised so much? He's a fan of the club and doesn't like the way we're playing. How's that so wrong? Christ, the fecking mention of CO92 gets under the skin of people here for some reason.
 

Rockets Redglare

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It seems that this trashing up your successor is indeed a United thing. Keane left Scholes, Giggs and Gaz out of his best XI. I find it pretty crass to be honest

Giggs was on the bench for Ronaldo (not exactly a ridiculous choice) and he said if anything he’d take himself out for Scholes.
So he’s hardly trashed anyone.
 

devilish

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Giggs was on the bench for Ronaldo (not exactly a ridiculous choice) and he said if anything he’d take himself out for Scholes.
So he’s hardly trashed anyone.
Ronaldo had barely ever played LW for us. So why not play him on the RW? I am hardly the biggest fan of the Neville brothers but even I admit that Gaz was way better then Parker. Meanwhile Scholes was far better then Incey. It seems that Keane went to great pains to remove the SAF's boy scouts, those who followed him blindly like ducklings with their mummy duck. Schmeichel (he defied SAF by joining City), Parker (he's got a bit of an axe to grind at us because we gave him a free transfer which kind of ruined his career), Pally (who can forget the I had a Pally shirt), Stam (the famous diary), Ince, Beckham, himself, Ronaldo (he had issues with the old man when he declared he wanted to leave us), RVN and bad boy Cantona.

With such bias and attitude, no wonder why none of our former players were able to become a half decent manager.
 

11101

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What the hell has he said wrong that he's getting criticised so much? He's a fan of the club and doesn't like the way we're playing. How's that so wrong? Christ, the fecking mention of CO92 gets under the skin of people here for some reason.
Its not what hes said this time, but that he doesn't like anything we do. If it's different to when he was playing and SAF was managing, he has something negative to say. He can't move on. If we won the treble he'd find a reason to complain, probably that we didn't use enough Manchester lads or something.
 

devilish

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Fair enough. Funnily, I had this debate with my colleague (a Liverpool fan) where I admitted that Juventus were the Man Utd of Italy, as he believed Milan were the biggest. I have always been fond of "the old lady" since they used to whoop us in the CL. you have provided sound arguments and reasoning
I know I am being a bit controversial here. However I don't think that there's any EPL club who can claim to be like Juventus. Both Liverpool and us had our share of dominating the league. However we're talking here of a nearly 90 year old stint. 5 titles during the 30s, 1 league title during the 40s (Italy was a mess during that period), 3 titles during the 50s, 2 titles during the 60s, 5 titles during the 70s, 4 titles during the 80s, 2 titles during the 90s, 4 titles during the 2000s and 7 titles during the past decades. That's terrifying.

AC Milan are a mix between Nottingham Forest (a club with great history) and Shitty (ie a club who was made big by plastic money). They do share an old history being the oldest club in Milan but 8 of their 18 titles and 5 of their 7 CLs came at a time when sugar daddy Berlusconi owned the club. The least said about the guy's money the better.
 

Rafaeldagold

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What the hell has he said wrong that he's getting criticised so much? He's a fan of the club and doesn't like the way we're playing. How's that so wrong? Christ, the fecking mention of CO92 gets under the skin of people here for some reason.
I think it’s because there seems to be no leeway for Jose- everything is pounded upon as a negative (I think the style thing is blown out of proportion- we’ve played both very well and entertaining as well as insipid)

It’s almost as if Scholes wants him to fail before the seasons begun- why not just say positive things now and if it turns terrible in the season then say so? You never saw ex Liverpool players slagging off the scousers/manager pre season.

Before a season starts you need a whole club onside & optimistic to give you the best chance. What Scholes & his comments does is put us in a negative light before a balls been kicked
 

cyberman

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But we do know how we want to play?
Just because Scholes doesn't agree with it doesn't mean it isn't there.
 

Beachryan

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That's an extremely reasonable summation. Won't last as a pundit ;)
 

Beagle

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He didn't say anything wrong/OTT in those 2 clips. Do people go through the OP before posting stuff like Scholes should shut up. He is entitled to give his opinion and knows a lot more about football than we do. Also his opinion in this case is nothing far-fetched or controversial.
 

Shamsu007

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Paul Scholes had spent his entire career being second judged. As a Kid he was laughed by other talent scounts and youth coaches because he couldn't last more then 20 minutes on the pitch without running out of breath. Harrison protected him and believed in him when most didn't. Scholes replaced Cantona magnificently during the suspension but SAF still brought in Teddy, forcing Scholes to move in CM. Then after so many sacrifices the boss added Veron to the team. He is in fact the only class of 92 who had to fight for a first team place with a world class player. His story with England is pretty much the same. He was second guessed multiple time as fans would argue if he's truly better then Gerrard or Lampard.

I'd expect him from all people to understand Pogba. The French man comes from a disadvantaged family. At age 16 he moved to England. Most of the class of 92 wouldn't even leave Manchester at that age let alone move to a new country altogether. At age 19 he took a courageous decision to move again and join a club which is absolutely ruthless with players. Many had failed at Juventus from Thierry Henry to Ian Rush, yet this kid, did the unthinkable and that despite having to compete for a first team place against the likes of Pirlo, Vidal and Marchisio. In 2016 he had the world at its feet yet he chose to join us (a downgrade compared to Juventus who were winning titles for fun) and that's because he felt he owe us one.

So seriously, why can't he can't get off his back for once? Its not his fault that we're not doing well.
Does that gives him the right to be immuned to constructive criticism.

I don't see anything wrong with what Scholes said, he's just like any concerned fan here who doesn't think we are on the right path to win trophies.
 
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3KDré

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But we do know how we want to play?
Just because Scholes doesn't agree with it doesn't mean it isn't there.
He’s not wrong though. We are trying to be a counter attackinng team but half our counter attacks look disjointed.

I don’t want to add to the moaning but there’s no flaws in what he’s said. And I don’t see why people moan about him moaning when he’s been paid by Sky for his honest opinion.
 

Minimalist

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Can't disagree with Scholes at all with what he says there. Sums it up well.

No point sticking our heads in the sand.
 

Justin Bieber

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I kinda wish he was quiet and mysterious again with the odd photo from his holidays in Spain with a ciggy hanging out of his mouth getting posted in Match magazine.
 

Beagle

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Why do people have a problem with his punditry? I just watched him and Phil Neville reacting to the Brighton game and both made perfect sense. Scholes' criticism of Pogba is not at all over the top.
 

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He's getting money for nothing. When he was a player he dodged the media as often as he could. Keano said in his book that Scholes, even though it was his turn, always managed to dodge post match interviews, consequently other players always had to stand in for him. Erm I mean even Wazza did it when he had to.
Now however, he's quick to get on the media and critisize. Certainly not pundit material lacks expression, always looks miserable and has zero charisma.
 

Beagle

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He's getting money for nothing. When he was a player he dodged the media as often as he could. Keano said in his book that Scholes, even though it was his turn, always managed to dodge post match interviews, consequently other players always had to stand in for him. Erm I mean even Wazza did it when he had to.
Now however, he's quick to get on the media and critisize. Certainly not pundit material lacks expression, always looks miserable and has zero charisma.
Never knew that's what was required to be a pundit.