Pep - Doping (?) | Are PEDs being used by footballers

[jojojo]

Silva plays well in the seasons when City win titles. He plays well in teams that are playing well. He's just been through three seasons of winning next to nothing and he's hungry - and presumably he's hungry to play for Spain as well.

In terms of Guardiola's management, there's that old idea that the "first 5 yards are in the head" and I can easily believe that's what we seeing here.

Otamendi was a good defender in Spain, it took him a while to become a good one here. Players are able to improve and learn. Particularly if the players around them are playing to a consistent style and you know what their positioning will be.

In other words, I'm not seeing something unnatural about City this season. What I do see though is that football as a whole has a very casual attitude to the topic, and has managed to avoid actually asking the hard questions.

Why wouldn't young players with a massive financial incentive to get a first contract risk it (they do in other sports and even for no financial gain) and why wouldn't a Championship club who stand to get millions on promotion take the gamble. At every level in the game there's an incentive to get the last drop out of the players, whether it's a World Cup final or a U18 squad place. Yet apparently more or less nobody does it, which seems just as unlikely as everyone does.

 

[KirkDuyt]

The things Dutch people say about Pep on Dutch forums are so nauseating. A few gems after last night:

"Pep makes every league boring, what a great manager"

"We are so privileged to live in the Pep-era"

"having Pep as a manager is like cheating"

"It's beautiful that Pep implements his own passing game in the hoofball prem"

Feck off, just, I don't even, ugh.

 

[GhastlyHun]

The things Dutch people say about Pep on Dutch forums are so nauseating. A few gems after last night:

"Pep makes every league boring, what a great manager"

"We are so privileged to live in the Pep-era"

"having Pep as a manager is like cheating"

"It's beautiful that Pep implements his own passing game in the hoofball prem"

Feck off, just, I don't even, ugh.

This isn't quite the right thread for that, is it?

 

[KirkDuyt]

This isn't quite the right thread for that, is it?

Ah my bad, I saw Pep in the title and in my blind rage didnt look any further

 

[Javi]

Silva plays well in the seasons when City win titles. He plays well in teams that are playing well. He's just been through three seasons of winning next to nothing and he's hungry - and presumably he's hungry to play for Spain as well.

In terms of Guardiola's management, there's that old idea that the "first 5 yards are in the head" and I can easily believe that's what we seeing here.

Otamendi was a good defender in Spain, it took him a while to become a good one here. Players are able to improve and learn. Particularly if the players around them are playing to a consistent style and you know what their positioning will be.

In other words, I'm not seeing something unnatural about City this season. What I do see though is that football as a whole has a very casual attitude to the topic, and has managed to avoid actually asking the hard questions.

Why wouldn't young players with a massive financial incentive to get a first contract risk it (they do in other sports and even for no financial gain) and why wouldn't a Championship club who stand to get millions on promotion take the gamble. At every level in the game there's an incentive to get the last drop out of the players, whether it's a World Cup final or a U18 squad place. Yet apparently more or less nobody does it, which seems just as unlikely as everyone does.

That's a very sensible and good post and reflects pretty much how I see the topic as well.

 

[AP88]

Saw this thread bumped and straight away knew it had to be about Silva. I mean how has he all of a sudden turned into this elite presser with incredible pace and stamina.

Amazing how a scrawny little non-athlete suddenly develops an intensity and stamina that he previously hasn’t shown in any of his previous 7 seasons in England, at the age of 32, while coached by a proven drugs cheat. Merlin indeed.

Fernandinho came back from a hamstring injury after exactly 15 days. Is that normal?

In the magical world of Pep apologists, of course.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

In the magical world of Pep apologists, of course.

Or, alternatively, in the not so magical word of medicine.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/hamstring-injury/

 

[Guy Incognito]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Not happy with Pep's doctors?

 

[JustFootballFan]

most dopers do.

98% and those who don´t never get another job. That´s exactly how it was in cycling.

 

[Thunderhead]

Amazing how a scrawny little non-athlete suddenly develops an intensity and stamina that he previously hasn’t shown in any of his previous 7 seasons in England, at the age of 32, while coached by a proven drugs cheat. Merlin indeed.

non-athlete, he's a professional footballer ffs, and just because he was never asked to do it by previous managers there is nothing to suggest he couldn't have done it.

 

[Ikon]

I think he could be blood doping them. It's an old practice of taking a pint of blood from them then injecting it back into them just before a performance. It can be dangerous having an extra pint of the good red cell stuff. Drugs tests don't always show this but it is considered illegal in all athletics.

There was this Scandinavian runner from years back that was always average in rankings but ran out of his skin come the medals and won almost everything. I forget his name but he was a blood doper. Older generations will recall it..

That would be Lasse Virén...
"In distance running circles people vaguely acknowledge Lasse Viren as the godfather of doping. The lean Finn won the 5K and the 10K in successive Olympics, but his performance during the intervening years was so modest that many onlookers, ABC's Erich Segal included, accused him of doctoring his blood for the Games. Amid the hoarfrost of the Cold War, Viren was easy to vilify. Socialist Finland seemed a step away from communist East Germany, which had sponsored a state-wide doping program. And Viren didn't do much to clear his name. When indignant reporters asked him his secret, he quipped, "reindeer milk."

Since then he's denied the doping allegations. A 1977 Sports Illustrated profile ascribes his Olympic success to a training regimen of 150 miles per week, an uncanny natural hematocrit, and a coach who knew how to peak his athletes. We know his teammate Kaarlo Maaninka doped (not because he was caught, but because in retirement he became evangelical and confessed). But we know nothing about Viren's purported doping and little about blood transfusions of his era. Two reasons: no one tested for doping until the International Olympic Committee banned it in 1985, and shortly afterward athletes began using something else."

 

[padr81]

non-athlete, he's a professional footballer ffs, and just because he was never asked to do it by previous managers there is nothing to suggest he couldn't have done it.

Absolutely pathetic, Silva was also amazing under Mancini, like Aguero etc.. he kind of took the last 2 years under Pellegrini off when we didn't have the ball so its skewed perceptions on here. He's always been intense without the ball, lots of comparisons to Scholes in the way he was constantly fouling while closing down etc.. under Mancini and Pellgirini's first season plus he's probably played less this season than any other but Pep is doing well so "drugs".

 

[PepsiCola]

This thread is very small-time.

 

[Adisa]

At least change the title to doping in general until something concrete links Pep to it.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Not happy with Pep's doctors?

“
I think I would have been able to moderate the conflict between Mull and Pep Guardiola," Hoeness said.

"Pep Guardiola is a very proud Catalan, and the Spanish football coaches have a very different relationship with the medical department of the clubs.”

ROFL what is Hoeness actually implying here!!!!

 

[Adisa]

“
I think I would have been able to moderate the conflict between Mull and Pep Guardiola," Hoeness said.

"Pep Guardiola is a very proud Catalan, and the Spanish football coaches have a very different relationship with the medical department of the clubs.”

ROFL what is Hoeness actually implying here!!!!

Think he's saying in Spain, doctors still take instructions from the coaches. Think Wohlfarht was used to having some independence.

 

[Gio]

Fernandinho came back from a hamstring injury after exactly 15 days. Is that normal?

Why not? A hamstring injury isn't like a broken leg - there are different degrees of strain depending on how many muscle fibres have been torn. City said that it wasn't serious and so it was only ever gonna take 2-4 weeks to recover from. It also depends on you rehab it - some of the traditional methods take a lot longer, but there are (non-PED) ways to do it where you can really knock the time off.

 

[Sterling Archer]

I avoided this thread for some time, not wanting to bring my personal bias and opinion into something that should be factually based and proven. In doing so, I've missed quite a few comments so excuse me if I'm repeating something.

I just recently watched the documentary 'Icarus' which covers in great detail how thorough the doping regime in professional sports can be. Whether it's cycling or an Olympic event, they get by. Highly recommend the film of you haven't seen it - it's on Netflix.

 

[Treble]

There is no City player in the top 10 of the most sprints table:

Most sprints in a PL season


2017/18 Since 2013/14

Player Sprints Player Sprints
Dele Alli 2,163 Dele Alli 2,621
A. Doucoure 1,988 George Boyd 2,587
Roberto Firmino 1,942 Scott Arfield 2,532
Jordan Ayew 1,908 Nathaniel Clyne 2,522
Joe Allen 1,852 Roberto Firmino 2,497
Hector Bellerin 1,850 Adam Lallana 2,455
Richarlison 1,829 Gylfi Sigurdsson 2,408
Christian Eriksen 1,761 George Boyd 2,359
Jay Rodriguez 1,719 Seamus Coleman 2,265
Andros Townsend 1,686 Olivier Giroud 2,243

https://www.premierleague.com/news/650237

People have suspected that KDB has managed too many sprints. Turns out Alli and Eriksen are making much more sprints.

 

[PepG]

There is no City player in the top 10 of the most sprints table:

Most sprints in a PL season


2017/18 Since 2013/14

Player Sprints Player Sprints
Dele Alli 2,163 Dele Alli 2,621
A. Doucoure 1,988 George Boyd 2,587
Roberto Firmino 1,942 Scott Arfield 2,532
Jordan Ayew 1,908 Nathaniel Clyne 2,522
Joe Allen 1,852 Roberto Firmino 2,497
Hector Bellerin 1,850 Adam Lallana 2,455
Richarlison 1,829 Gylfi Sigurdsson 2,408
Christian Eriksen 1,761 George Boyd 2,359
Jay Rodriguez 1,719 Seamus Coleman 2,265
Andros Townsend 1,686 Olivier Giroud 2,243

https://www.premierleague.com/news/650237

People have suspected that KDB has managed too many sprints. Turns out Alli and Eriksen are making much more sprints.

BOOM! (In Klopp's voice)
Running is for animals. For football you need a brain and a ball (Louis Van Gaal)
There is no need for doping to avoid fatigue if you are positioning yourself better on the pitch than your opponent, making a better desicions with or without the ball and generally being fresh and ready to win!

 

[Classical Mechanic]

There is no City player in the top 10 of the most sprints table:

Most sprints in a PL season


2017/18 Since 2013/14

Player Sprints Player Sprints
Dele Alli 2,163 Dele Alli 2,621
A. Doucoure 1,988 George Boyd 2,587
Roberto Firmino 1,942 Scott Arfield 2,532
Jordan Ayew 1,908 Nathaniel Clyne 2,522
Joe Allen 1,852 Roberto Firmino 2,497
Hector Bellerin 1,850 Adam Lallana 2,455
Richarlison 1,829 Gylfi Sigurdsson 2,408
Christian Eriksen 1,761 George Boyd 2,359
Jay Rodriguez 1,719 Seamus Coleman 2,265
Andros Townsend 1,686 Olivier Giroud 2,243

https://www.premierleague.com/news/650237

People have suspected that KDB has managed too many sprints. Turns out Alli and Eriksen are making much more sprints.

FFS Treble, not this again. Spurious attempts at proving your favourite team can't be doping.

 

[GhastlyHun]

FFS Treble, not this again. Spurious attempts at proving your favourite team can't be doping.

It certainly shows that City players do not produce superhuman physical performances every week, and that their success is not down to running harder, faster, and longer than anyone else, contrary to what some in here suggest without providing any data for it.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

It certainly shows that City players do not produce superhuman physical performances every week, and that their success is not down to running harder, faster, and longer than anyone else, contrary to what some in here suggest without providing any data for it.

The idea that the benefits of doping are limited to the increase of CV capacity is very naive.

City are a possession based team that usually faced packed defences, why would they be sprinting more than other sides?

 

[Treble]

FFS Treble, not this again. Spurious attempts at proving your favourite team can't be doping.

Indeed. I''m still waiting for your first intelligent post on here.

 

[Treble]

The idea that the benefits of doping are limited to the increase of CV capacity is very naive.

City are a possession based team that usually faced packed defences, why would they be sprinting more than other sides?

Why would they need to dope then?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Why would they need to dope then?

As we have discussed on here before, doping most importantly combats against fatigue, this enables quicker recovery times in between games and the ability to stay mentally and physically sharp for longer in games. Fatigue is the enemy of competitors in skill based sports as it hinders decision making and causes a loss in technical skills. The highest proportion of goals scored in a football match comes in the final stages of games, this is because the players become tired and make more mistakes.

Doping also improves recovery time from injury, it is easy to see why having more players available more often is an advantage.

As I have said before in this thread. I only become suspicious of Pep's sides at certain times, always in bigger games, the 2011 CL final when Barca were just like a storm and KDB against Spurs this season, a game in which he made the most high intensity sprints and covered the most distance, playing pretty much like a man possessed.

These are only suspicions of course, in the absence of hard evidence we must give them the benefit of any doubt.

That said, it seems obvious to me, that if a side was going to use nefarious means of improving performance that would result in serious sanctions if uncovered, that those means would only be used at times when they would have a more profound effect on the teams fortunes. The idea that all players would be juiced in Premier League games against weaker opposition would seem an unnecessary risk, more that you would give players that dictate the tempo of games a 'boost' in major games that help define the season.

 

[kouroux]

PEDs are in football, of that I have no doubt, it's a matter of seriously scanning for it or not.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

PEDs are in football, of that I have no doubt, it's a matter of seriously scanning for it or not.

Doesn't make much of a difference, you only catch the really dumb or really unlucky ones. The Balco scandal revealed major sports stars that doped their way to the top their whole careers and never tested positive.

Mostly it is leaks, hacks etc that expose dopers.

That said, testing in football is weak. The Spanish authorities were not even testing La Liga players at all recently.

 

[Treble]

As we have discussed on here before, doping most importantly combats against fatigue, this enables quicker recovery times in between games and the ability to stay mentally and physically sharp for longer in games. Fatigue is the enemy of competitors in skill based sports as it hinders decision making and causes a loss in technical skills. The highest proportion of goals scored in a football match comes in the final stages of games, this is because the players become tired and make more mistakes.

Doping also improves recovery time from injury, it is easy to see why having more players available more often is an advantage.

As I have said before in this thread. I only become suspicious of Pep's sides at certain times, always in bigger games, the 2011 CL final when Barca were just like a storm and KDB against Spurs this season, a game in which he made the most high intensity sprints and covered the most distance, playing pretty much like a man possessed.

These are only suspicions of course, in the absence of hard evidence we must give them the benefit of any doubt.

That said, it seems obvious to me, that if a side was going to use nefarious means of improving performance that would result in serious sanctions if uncovered, that those means would only be used at times when they would have a more profound effect on the teams fortunes. The idea that all players would be juiced in Premier League games against weaker opposition would seem an unnecessary risk, more that you would give players that dictate the tempo of games a 'boost' in major games that help define the season.

It's a possibility that they dope in big games. We need more data to see whether they run much more than usual in these games. I agree that KDB's performance against Spurs was very impressive physically wise. But I don't think that Spurs or Liverpool run less in big games. If some of their players (Alli, Firmino, Erisken..) run further and make more sprints that the players of the other big teams includng City, then they need doping to combat fatigue. And the same applies to lesser players like Doucoure, Allen, Ayew, etc. Why would City need to dope more than Liverpool and Spurs (some form of doping takes place in all teams, imo) when none of their players makes so many sprints and none of them is in the top 10 of distance covered either? Maybe having more possession helps them to press better because they need to run less up and down the pitch? Regarding injuries, City have had injury crises too, only 3-4 of their regular startes haven't had injuries so far. That's not different from the other big clubs.

Anyway, if Guardiola succeeds to this extent because of some sophisticated way of doping his teams, he will be caught at some point. The other big clubs will be very interested in stopping him. And that will be curtains for him. No one could/should get away with cheating, especially at that level.

 

[RedFish]

Of course they are. I wonder how many kids trying to earn a professional contract are using PED's, that is the interesting question for me.

 

[Adam-Utd]

If Athletes are doping at the Olympics, Boxing, Cycling, Tennis and most other high cardio sports, you can be sure as hell that football is doping too. It's sad but true.

Peps Barcelona was the first team I've ever truly believed did dope, the way they stayed so fresh, intense and played practically the same 11 every game for 60+ matches without getting tired was a major indicator.

Wether he's taken that to Bayern and City is hard to prove, but there's definitely been a significant improvement in certain players that is hard to fathom.

Shame those Spanish reports got buried, I wonder just how deep they went.

 

[VeevaVee]

Meanwhile we have a team full of dopes has this joke been made yet?

 

[Hitchez]

Accusing City of doping without any evidence seems to be in bad taste imo.

 

[podurban2]

Some in here are an embarrassment





Those who don’t suspect City are using PEDs.

 

[Mogget]

I'm curious if the posters in here who are convinced Pep's City are doping would be open to the idea that Ferguson's United sides also doped. All those last minute winners..

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I'm curious if the posters in here who are convinced Pep's City are doping would be open to the idea that Ferguson's United sides also doped. All those last minute winners..

It is certainly possible too. If doping is widespread I doubt we would be innocent. I doubt us under Mourinho would be better than City under Pep when it comes to morals and cheating.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I'm curious if the posters in here who are convinced Pep's City are doping would be open to the idea that Ferguson's United sides also doped. All those last minute winners..

You have to be open to the idea but where is the smoke, just the smallest bit? Pep has plenty of smoke around his career, on the other hand.

@Treble

City are among the best in the league at avoiding injury and missing players through injuries according to these sources

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...eague-injuries-teams-2017-2018-sportgalleries

http://dailycannon.com/injury-league/

 

[GazTheLegend]

I'm curious if the posters in here who are convinced Pep's City are doping would be open to the idea that Ferguson's United sides also doped. All those last minute winners..

There are some interesting quotations from Alex Ferguson that lead me to believe that he never doped his players.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-games-are-cause-for-concern-1201198.html?amp

“The Manchester United manager said he was worried about the long-term effects on players of both the jabs and Hoddle's promotion of the controversial food supplement Creatine.

"At United we use more traditional methods to get results," he said. "Chemicals can become addictive. You are putting things in the body that are not normally there. You wonder about the long-term effects."

Ironic then that the Juventus team we faced that decade certainly
had less moral compunction

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....of-juves-team-of-the-nineties-728710.html?amp

 

[DonFerguson]

Accusing City of doping without any evidence seems to be in bad taste imo.

We used to hear opposition fans accuse us of buying officials all the time, when we were dominating English football, and would call those rival fans "pathetic" for their sour grapes.

It's a shame that we have a few here who have stooped to that level. All it does, is make us look small time.

There's no evidence that one particular team is more likely to have used PEDs than another and there was non of this talk last season, when City weren't romping to the title. It's as if some of our folk cannot handle the fact that a team they detest is on top and their recourse is to accuse said team of doping. It's silly and as plenty on here have mentioned, it is in bad taste.

The reaction here by the neutrals - I'm seeing a few posts from Arsenal and Chelsea fans - say it all. If they think it's laughable, that's because it is. They're removed from the situation and are less likely to have a myopic view on things.

Some of the tripe on here is a little embarrssing. I remember feeling sad for the Liverpool fans who repeatedly accused Ferguson of handing PFA officials brown envelopes back in 2009 (Rafa Benitez's meltdown might have lit a fire in some of them) and at the moment, I can't help but feel that opposition fans must read some of these comments and cringe.

 

[Rashford2good]

How could pep or city be doping players and get away with it? There are frequent random drug tests, there are urine tests after games, if they are being doped then how could an entire squad get away with it? Because to a man they have been superb, they have upped their game 100% and have got an obvious game plan that they stick to.
We sound a bitter lot saying their success is purely through doping, let's take our red tinted glasses off and say they have been head and shoulders above the rest of us, been lucky with injuries and have rode their luck in a couple of matches with late winners.