Pep - Doping (?) | Are PEDs being used by footballers

[Manchester Dan]

Guardiola admitted on MNF that tactics don't play as much part as people say they do in his teams. He said the most important thing was the "run, run, run"

Do you really think the other teams in our league can't be arsed to run around as much as them?

He also said the team is always in a position where there aren’t big gaps between players so they can quickly close the ball down after losing it. So we are aggressive off the ball and run a lot, but we only need to do it in short bursts.

Also got to remember we averaged over 70% possession for the season, which is far less tiring than chasing the ball for 70% of the game. I think our running is overstated, and none of the stats point to City being ridiculously athletic compared to other sides.

 

[padr81]

I've gotten curious after all the accusations so I did a fair bit of looking into this with regards City.

A Bit About Possession:

• City averaged 71.6% possession this season.
• The ball is in play for approximately 58 minutes per game for Man City ( at least it was in November)
• The math says City spent an average of 16 minutes 30 seconds without the ball per match while the ball is in play.
• You don't need to be on PEDs to figure out thats very little time defending per match.
• You also don't need to be on PEDs to have players sprint in short bursts without the ball given the opposition are usually the ones doing the chasing and will tire first 95% of the time so our players are fresher.
• How much of that time would the ball spend with the keeper? Even if he hold the ball for 1 minute total of that 16.5 minutes, over 90 minutes City are now having to defend for 15 minutes and 30 seconds per match.

By comparison using 58 minutes per game, Cities opposition are trying to get the ball for 41 minutes 30 seconds.

Who is far more likely to be fresh after 80 minutes and look like they have amazing fitness, the guys chasing the ball and throwing all their focus into defending for 41.5 minutes or the guys who spend that amount of time stroking the ball around.

Spurs are second in terms of possession and Liverpool 4th. Strange how they also are the ones with the most intense press and who finish strongly. Maybe its not PED's and they simply spint to get the ball, then keep it, recycling possession and catching their breath?

These stats are the latest I can find but interestingly..
---------------------------
Distance Covered:
In terms of distance covered, City sat 10th in the league in January (couldn't find a newer one), 2nd lowest of the top 6 (less than 100km above United who were 20th).
As a comparison in November City were 9th, Liverpool incidentally were below them in 11th.

In terms of individual players, City had no player in the top 10 for distance covered. From the top 6, Matic, Xhaka and Eriksen were all that featured from the top 6.
----------------------------
Sprinting:
In November City led the league in sprints as a team (Liverpool had less than Arsenal which I find curious) but interestingly none of City or Liverpool had a player in the top 10, in fact Dele Alli and Hector Bellerin were the only players from a top 6 club on the list. Watford had 3 players in there.

Watford had 3 players in the most sprints and 1 in the most distance covered, must be doping right.... Doucore was 7th for most sprints and 2nd in distance covered, needs to be tested fast.
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Injuries:
At the end of February (newest data I can get yet again). City players had missed a combined 64 matches through injury according to Sport Mail. This of course was far less than United who had a rather large 107. Watford led the way with 171 (guess all that running catches up), Everton were 2nd with Burnley and United 3rd.

City sat in 13th spot for the season at that point. Newcastle, Brighton, Stoke, West Brom, Leicester, Chelsea and Southampton all had less injury issues. Chelsea came in with the lowest of the top 6 with only 37.
City, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs were all in or about the same region, Liverpool with slightly more than the other 3.
So again City and Pep's magic PEDs didn't help with injuries with City sitting midtable.
------------------------------------------------
To Sum Up.
Do Pep teams sprint more than other teams? Yes.
Do they do more running in general? Nope.

More importantly,

• Do Pep's players put up more individual sprints than other teams players? Nope. Maybe good coaching allows different players to make sprints at different times, switching the press, I've often seen KDB or Silva press a CB while Jesus/Aguero take a break, or David Silva press the RB while Sane falls into positions and KDB do the same for Sterling on the other side.
• Do Pep's players put up more individual miles than other teams players? Nope.

• Do City get less injuries than the rest of the league thanks to magic PED's? Nope (all though admittedly this year hasn't been too bad at all).

-----------------------------------------------
Side Note:
Am I dumb enough to believe there is no doping in football? Am I feck, but Pep, City, Liverpool, Spurs and all the other intense teams are no more guilty of it than all the others if it exists and there are zero signs that any of their players are fitter, stronger, faster or have more stamina then the rest of the league.

 

[Charles Miller]

Sounds like it to me.
It's proven City's individual players run less than other teams.

As someone said its about sprint speed and recovery from sprints. City's players run less due to heavy possession style. But that style is only possible if you can recover the ball very fast when you lose it and have energy to do it for long periods.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

How many times will the erroneous belief that PEDS only serve to make you run around more be debated in this thread?

 

[jojojo]

There's a whole lot of prejudice (and often envy) comes through whenever people try to look for examples to accuse.

The issue I always come back to is why wouldn't English teams do it? The winner of the PL promotion playoff will pick up around £100m in extra income. For a teenager the difference between a top flight career and a drift down into the semi-pros could be a few kg of muscle, a fraction of a second on a short sprint.

It's supposed to be the richest, fastest league in Europe, the one where new players are routinely told to toughen up and bulk up to deal with the rough and tumble and that there are "no easy games". Yet, somehow it's those technical foreigners whose league opponents roll over for them, so they don't get worn out at home, and whose refs won't allow anyone to tackle them that need the drugs.

I'm dubious. I don't think football wants to know if it's got a problem. The whole testing regime smacks of a system that prefers to turn a blind eye and just pick up the occasional coke sniffer to make it look like they're interested.

I won't say I think they're all at it, though when I look at the risk/reward ratio for players at certain points in their career or for teams in certain situations I do wonder just how high the percentage is.

 

[Shane88]

Saw this posted on Reddit.

From 2016. In the middle of almost complete Spanish dominance on the European scene that is still going almost unopposed, bar our one EL.

They're doped up to the eyeballs, I'm convinced of it.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Saw this posted on Reddit.

From 2016. In the middle of almost complete Spanish dominance on the European scene that is still going almost unopposed, bar our one EL.

They're doped up to the eyeballs, I'm convinced of it.

Saw the thread as well.

I think it's a case of if a country doesn't care about doping (and Spain clearly doesn't, given what happened with Fuentes blood bags) then what's the point even pretending to take samples? Football has a big problem and it won't admit it. The fact the World Cup is being hosted in Russia and none of their players were caught doping during the Olympic scandal is telling.

 

[Lawman]

There's a whole lot of prejudice (and often envy) comes through whenever people try to look for examples to accuse.

The issue I always come back to is why wouldn't English teams do it? The winner of the PL promotion playoff will pick up around £100m in extra income. For a teenager the difference between a top flight career and a drift down into the semi-pros could be a few kg of muscle, a fraction of a second on a short sprint.

It's supposed to be the richest, fastest league in Europe, the one where new players are routinely told to toughen up and bulk up to deal with the rough and tumble and that there are "no easy games". Yet, somehow it's those technical foreigners whose league opponents roll over for them, so they don't get worn out at home, and whose refs won't allow anyone to tackle them that need the drugs.

I'm dubious. I don't think football wants to know if it's got a problem. The whole testing regime smacks of a system that prefers to turn a blind eye and just pick up the occasional coke sniffer to make it look like they're interested.

I won't say I think they're all at it, though when I look at the risk/reward ratio for players at certain points in their career or for teams in certain situations I do wonder just how high the percentage is.

You’ve pretty much summed up my thoughts on it.

 

[11101]

There's a whole lot of prejudice (and often envy) comes through whenever people try to look for examples to accuse.

The issue I always come back to is why wouldn't English teams do it? The winner of the PL promotion playoff will pick up around £100m in extra income. For a teenager the difference between a top flight career and a drift down into the semi-pros could be a few kg of muscle, a fraction of a second on a short sprint.

It's supposed to be the richest, fastest league in Europe, the one where new players are routinely told to toughen up and bulk up to deal with the rough and tumble and that there are "no easy games". Yet, somehow it's those technical foreigners whose league opponents roll over for them, so they don't get worn out at home, and whose refs won't allow anyone to tackle them that need the drugs.

I'm dubious. I don't think football wants to know if it's got a problem. The whole testing regime smacks of a system that prefers to turn a blind eye and just pick up the occasional coke sniffer to make it look like they're interested.

I won't say I think they're all at it, though when I look at the risk/reward ratio for players at certain points in their career or for teams in certain situations I do wonder just how high the percentage is.

I expect English teams do dope. However, if you have ever followed cycling you will know there are lots of different levels of 'doping' as a catch all term. You can take minor performance enhancers, or you can be full on high as a kite, and its a cat and mouse game. The takers are always a step ahead of the testers, the question is how far are they willing to push it and how much risk are they prepared to take, as the more you push the more likely you are to get caught out.

Along those lines I fully believe that Leicester team found something new and were prepared to risk it for a season, but after that the testers caught up and they couldn't/didn't want to risk it anymore. Likewise Pep is quite obviously prepared to live closer to the edge than most, safe in the knowledge that football will protect its prize asset if he ever does slip up.

As that chart above illustrates nicely, if you exist in a league where you know they are at least pretending to be interested in drug testing, you will be far more conservative in what you do than if you play in a league where they will actively protect you from getting caught.

 

[Treble]

Saw this posted on Reddit.

From 2016. In the middle of almost complete Spanish dominance on the European scene that is still going almost unopposed, bar our one EL.

They're doped up to the eyeballs, I'm convinced of it.

They are technically superior to English teams though. And English teams cover much more ground than Real and Barca. Liverpool run 120 km in some games. Spurs run like lunatics too. Barca averaged 103 km in the CL. Who is more likely to dope? Liverpool, Spurs and City or Barca and Real?

How could a Liverpool team including Arnold, Lovren, Milner, Henderson and the likes compete for the CL against Ronaldo, Modric, Kroos, Bale, Isco etc.? Who is doping?

 

[Treble]

Liverpool and Spurs run more than City. Liverpool ran 9km further than City in the CL tie between them. People talk about City because City won the league convincingly. Had Spurs or Liverpool won, they'd talk about them being doped. It's difficult to concede that the rivals are better. It must be doping that makes them better.

 

[Gbenger]

Liverpool and Spurs run more than City. Liverpool ran 9km further than City in the CL tie between them. People talk about City because City won the league convincingly. Had Spurs or Liverpool won, they'd talk about them being doped. It's difficult to concede that the rivals are better. It must be doping that makes them better.

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The advantage players get from doping especially in a sport like football might not be reflected in distance covered stats.

Do some research and enlighten yourself.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The advantage players get from doping especially in a sport like football might not be reflected in distance covered stats.

Do some research and enlighten yourself.

You said “might not,” so would you care to enlighten us as to what other advantages may be gained other than fitness?
You’re statement implies that you haven’t done any research

 

[Irish Jet]

They are technically superior to English teams though. And English teams cover much more ground than Real and Barca.

This really doesn't take into account how modern PED's work. It's a very simplistic view.

Everything can be improved with particular supplements. Physical, mental, emotional - Everything.

 

[Treble]

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The advantage players get from doping especially in a sport like football might not be reflected in distance covered stats.

Do some research and enlighten yourself.

Tell me stats which suggest that Madrid and Barca and City are doping but not Liverpool, Spurs and the other English clubs. Which stats are more relevant if not stats about running (including sprints)? Recovering and injuries? But why the teams that run more would recover worse than teams that run less? Is it injuries? Or mental concentration (how are we going to measure it?)

 

[Inigo Montoya]

This really doesn't take into account how modern PED's work. It's a very simplistic view.

Everything can be improved with particular supplements. Physical, mental, emotional - Everything.

Doesn’t explain why they got hammered by the scousers in the UCL and allowed a turnaround against us

 

[Treble]

This really doesn't take into account how modern PED's work. It's a very simplistic view.

Everything can be improved with particular supplements. Physical, mental, emotional - Everything.

Ok but how can we tell who is doped? Those who win, right?

 

[Treble]

You said “might not,” so would you care to enlighten us as to what other advantages may be gained other than fitness?
You’re statement implies that you haven’t done any research

He knows feck all, you can be sure of that.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

He knows feck all, you can be sure of that.

Oh I know.

It was the condescending nature of his post that got me

 

[GazTheLegend]

Doesn’t explain why they got hammered by the scousers in the UCL and allowed a turnaround against us

One off games, and Liverpool scored 3 in the what, first 30 minutes before tailing off pretty badly in the second half.

 

[GazTheLegend]

You said “might not,” so would you care to enlighten us as to what other advantages may be gained other than fitness?
You’re statement implies that you haven’t done any research

I'll do the job for him too - injury recovery is a HUGE part of modern football. Look at how many players Guardiola sent to Spanish doctors over the course of the season. Aguero - Jesus - Mendy have all spent spells in Spain. They can't work miracles though - players recover at different rates depending on how they respond to the treatment and their own physiology.

Google "microdose epo recovery". That's the one that most footballers if not ALL footballers are doing - it's massively beneficial for injury recovery. I expect that's why Pep sends his players to Barcelona and Ramon Cugat in order to recover from injury - it needs to be a good, careful doctor who knows exactly what he's doing or you can cause damage.

And there's a case for it being allowed professionally - if only because it's pretty much impossible to detect.

 

[Treble]

One off games, and Liverpool scored 3 in the what, first 30 minutes before tailing off pretty badly in the second half.

Liverpool ran in the second half as much as they did in the first half: 60km. City ran 55km in the second half. So, no, Liverpool just wanted to preserve the advantage from the first half.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Liverpool ran in the second half as much as they did in the first half: 60km. City ran 55km in the second half. So, no, Liverpool just wanted to preserve the advantage from the first half.

Fair enough I didn't see that. Actually hugely impressive, just thinking back to my impressions of the game and I was sure City were much better in the second half.

 

[Treble]

I'll do the job for him too - injury recovery is a HUGE part of modern football. Look at how many players Guardiola sent to Spanish doctors over the course of the season. Aguero - Jesus - Mendy have all spent spells in Spain. They can't work miracles though - players recover at different rates depending on how they respond to the treatment and their own physiology.

Google "microdose epo recovery". That's the one that most footballers if not ALL footballers are doing - it's massively beneficial for injury recovery. I expect that's why Pep sends his players to Barcelona and Ramon Cugat in order to recover from injury - it needs to be a good, careful doctor who knows exactly what he's doing or you can cause damage.

And there's a case for it being allowed professionally - if only because it's pretty much impossible to detect.

Why was Mendy 7 months out then? He was out injured as long as Zlatan who is 36 y.o. You are engaging in pure speculation here. You 'expect'. You don't have a clue at all, let's be honest here.

Personally, I think that all English clubs and all top clubs in Europe are doped. Some are probably slightly better at it.

 

[11101]

You said “might not,” so would you care to enlighten us as to what other advantages may be gained other than fitness?
You’re statement implies that you haven’t done any research

Fitness is not just about how many km you can cover.

One of the ways cycling catches its drugs cheats is to look at power outputs on climbs and breakaways. It looks like peaks and troughs over a stage. It doesn't matter how good the cyclist is, those power output peaks should be decline in each successive phase following a fairly consistent ratio. They catch the cheats by seeing who is not losing enough power. It's the same in football. Which players can sprint just as hard after 80 minutes as they can after 10.

 

[Irish Jet]

Doesn’t explain why they got hammered by the scousers in the UCL and allowed a turnaround against us

Doping doesn't equate to total dominance - Just vast improved. Every side ever has lost some games - Are you suggesting no side has ever doped?

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Fitness is not just about how many km you can cover.

One of the ways cycling catches its drugs cheats is to look at power outputs on climbs and breakaways. It looks like peaks and troughs over a stage. It doesn't matter how good the cyclist is, those power output peaks should be decline in each successive phase following a fairly consistent ratio. They catch the cheats by seeing who is not losing enough power. It's the same in football. Which players can sprint just as hard after 80 minutes as they can after 10.

I see, good points. How can you factor in the extra skill level involved in football though? I get the extreme fitness demands of tour cycling and such extreme sports events

 

[Irish Jet]

Ok but how can we tell who is doped? Those who win, right?

You can't know. Just speculate based on what you see, hear and feel. May be nothing's happening or maybe a case of being hidden in plain sight.

I'm pretty sure it's rife within the sport. Someone mentioned Mendy vs Zlatan when if there's one player to suspect - It's Zlatan.

The only question to me is whether it's simply done on an individual level or if there's also systematic, organized doping. I'd suspect the latter.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Why was Mendy 7 months out then? He was out injured as long as Zlatan who is 36 y.o. You are engaging in pure speculation here. You 'expect'. You don't have a clue at all, let's be honest here.

Personally, I think that all English clubs and all top clubs in Europe are doped. Some are probably slightly better at it.

What's the point of doping if it still makes you a rubbish team?

 

[Treble]

You can't know. Just speculate based on what you see, hear and feel. May be nothing's happening or maybe a case of being hidden in plain sight.

I'm pretty sure it's rife within the sport. Someone mentioned Mendy vs Zlatan when if there's one player to suspect - It's Zlatan.

The only question to me is whether it's simply done on an individual level or if there's also systematic, organized doping. I'd suspect the latter.

Me too. But I don't think that only the very best dope.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Doping doesn't equate to total dominance - Just vast improved. Every side ever has lost some games - Are you suggesting no side has ever doped?

I don’t know, I really don’t have an idea of this.

My personal knowledge starts and ends with athletics of whom I know many international sportspeople.

 

[Irish Jet]

I see, good points. How can you factor in the extra skill level involved in football though? I get the extreme fitness demands of tour cycling and such extreme sports events

Lack of fatigue would give you far more consistent technique.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

What's the point of doping if it still makes you a rubbish team?

I think Stoke and WBA were doped with something else

 

[breakout67]

What's the point of doping if it still makes you a rubbish team?

Have you seen how much money these rubbish teams pull in? I suspect it's a prerequisite at the top level of football to dope because without it you'll be completely destroyed.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Lack of fatigue would give you far more consistent technique.

Ok, I can see that

 

[Irish Jet]

Me too. But I don't think that only the very best dope.

Oh absolutely not.

I'd imagine it's rife across the board. It can make the difference between semi-pro and pro, football league and premier league, club level and international level. There's incentive wherever you look and by all accounts the system is pretty easy to beat. Joey Barton said you'd almost have to try to fail a drug test it's that bad.

 

[Treble]

What's the point of doping if it still makes you a rubbish team?

Rubbish? You mean West Brom or Arsenal?

The point is to be competitive. There are different levels: the PL, top 4, champions, CL. If you are not competitive, you die.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Have you seen how much money these rubbish teams pull in? I suspect it's a prerequisite at the top level of football to dope because without it you'll be completely destroyed.

The teams who got relegated still get there money, but were still relegated. I just wouldn't feel comfortable messing with players health for ultimately no reward anyway. They might get players back quicker from injury, or enhance their reflexes slightly etc, but a rubbish footballer is still a rubbish footballer.

 

[Random Task]

What's the point of doping if it still makes you a rubbish team?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Rubbish? You mean West Brom or Arsenal?

The point is to be competitive. There are different levels: the PL, top 4, champions, CL. If you are not competitive, you die.

I can see why the top sides feel they need to take the risk, but cannot see the point in the bottom clubs doing it. It obviously didn't work.