FWIW Jones is a good defender. A little bit last ditch at but overall he's definitely good and still very young. Himself and Smalling could make a great partnership. They both love to defend and are fecking rapid. Cant think of a quicker CB partnership in football actually.
Phil Jones Crawl
- Thread starter FortBoyard
- Start date
As said I dont see that as an act of commitment but more of well.......a sad/desperate act.One of our defenders just headed the ground in order to stop a goal and you think there's too much complacency.
New players will not only add quality and stability to the side but will also provide us with the right kick at the backside to all our defenders who had made it as first teamers without actually proving themselves on the pitch. However we need to be careful whom to bring. We need quality defenders and leaders not another Rojo type of signing
I agree not even close to Jones, but anytime you get the chance to mock that tool Terry, you gotta take it.
Meeeh!
Terry didn't even get the ball.
Our Phil is sooooo much better!
Analysis on Phil Jones' undeniable excellence:
http://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2015/5/19/8620455/how-to-defend-like-manchester-united-phil-jones
http://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2015/5/19/8620455/how-to-defend-like-manchester-united-phil-jones
Manchester United played Arsenal on Sunday afternoon, and nothing much happened. United scored the first goal, Arsenal the last, but both teams generally played like collections of humans who realised long, long ago that they wouldn't be winning the title, and would quite like to get on with the serious business of the FA Cup final/soaking up the sun in Dubai.
Except Phil Jones.
Where others bring lassitude, Jones brings commitment. Where others lie back, Jones flies in. Where others, finding themselves on all fours chasing Olivier Giroud, might think to themselves 'Ah well, it's only Olivier Giroud, he'll almost certainly shank this wide and then do that staggeringly irritating "oh, look at me, I just shanked the ball wide, what am I like?" grin', Jones does this:
Yes, he collapses like an ancient civilisation. But he gets the job done.
Defending is both an art and a science: part martial ballet, part improvisational geometry. And going by the above, one might easily assume that Jones is as a newborn giraffe to both geometry and ballet, as well as to the more prosaic business of standing up. But that would be a gross disservice to the man, and to his achievements.
Defending is sometimes sublime, and defending is sometimes ridiculous; this season, Manchester United have tended towards the latter. But what you have just watched is a moment in which the ridiculous and the sublime set aside their proverbial antipathy and unite to synthesise something perfect, something both astonishing (in a good way) and astonishing (in an 'oh my God, look at that' way). Something hypnotic. Something horribly and compellingly magnificent.
If you can tear your eyes away from the above, here's how he did it, frame by frame. Here are the Nine Stations of Philip Anthony Jones.
1. ADDRESSING THE BALL
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We open with a scene that typifies Jones' attention to detail, to the business of defending. It is axiomatic: when seeking to keep the ball from the net, one must at all times know exactly where the ball is. Here, we can be sure that of all the defenders who have ever known where the ball is, few have ever known quite so completely and profoundly as Jones at this precise moment. There is nothing else; there is just Jones, and his Nike Ordem.
(Yes, it's really called the Nike Ordem. No, we've no idea.)
2. ASSESSING THE ENEMY
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Of course, gaze too long at the ball and the ball will gaze back at you. Great defenders also like to know who and where the attackers are, and what they're up to. Here, Jones' positioning means that he can only see the boots and socks of his opponent, and as such he can't afford to relax. They might belong to Alexis Sanchez, after all. And he's actually good.
3. IN WHICH OUR HERO, IN ACCORDANCE WITH TRADITION, REMOVES HIS INVISIBLE HAT
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Because seriously, you don't want to be wearing an invisible hat when you're trying something like this.
4. APPROACHING THE BALL
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This, perhaps, is the most crucial moment of the entire manoeuvre. This is Jones' last chance to admit defeat. to abandon his limbs to gravity and the ball to chance. And it would be hard to blame him: that ball is bouncing away, and though he's got his own momentum, his limbs look all wrong. How on earth does he generate enough power from that position?
In a thousand million other universes, a thousand million other Phil Joneses fail to find the extra twitch forward. They slump to the turf and the ball rolls on. Olivier Giroud bears down on goal, while Jones has to bear the burden of the collapse without the triumph of the rescue. His moment is cut off at the second act, and the Vines are a few seconds shorter. He looks silly. Everybody laughs at him.
But not this universe. Not our Phil Jones.
5. THE SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF; THE DISBELIEF OF SUSPENSION
/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3709200/_6_-_two_hands__no_feet.0.png)
At this stage we pause to contemplate the strange vortex of circumstance that has lead to Jones, a professional footballer of more than 100 games for Manchester United, an England international and Premier League title winner, finding himself in the penalty area, in contact with the ground, with two hands, with no feet.
6. CONTACT
/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3709182/_7_-_listening_to_ball.0.png)
Here, frozen in the crucial moment, we can see the true relationship between defender and ball. So often assumed to exist in violent antagonism, here we see the secret tenderness that lies beneath. Please, Jones whispers, his voice soft. Please. I need you. I need you now more than ever. I need you to shuffle over there a touch and clank of Olivier Giroud's shin, then out for a goal kick. Yes, I love you. You know I love you. Go, my darling. And luck go with you.
7. IN WHICH OUR HERO IS DESTROYED
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This world was never meant for one as beautiful as you.
8. IN WHICH OUR HERO IS BORN AGAIN
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He came riding fast like a phoenix out of fire-flames.
9. ASCENSION
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Football fans, all of them secure in their exceptional handsomeness, like to make mockery of Phil Jones' face, which is prone to the occasional gurn at moments of high excitement. Here, though, the oversaturated video we've used serves to bring out Jones' inner fire, a searing red glow of pride. Look at him! He's glowing! It's ... it's beautiful!
I also have my doubts about Jones but can't help feel you are using the wrong example to highlight the point you are making.
He made a mistake in the prelude to the moment but rather than feeling sorry for himself and flopping to the ground impotently he retained a sense of purpose and composure and threw his head in to the line of fire in order to effect the outcome/minimize the impact of his mistake. If that is not commitment (giving ones all, even when things go wrong, for the good of the team) then I don't know what is.
Most players would have crashed to the floor and watched on in anguish as Giroud waltzed towards goal. Not Phil Jones, he managed to steal the show by making the best out of a bad situation (self created in fairness). If you wish to call it sad or desperate that is your choice but neither of those words preclude commitment. I in fact agree it was desperate but why would someone act in desperation if they were not in fact committed to a particular outcome or cause.
First of all I apologize beforehand for diverting the argument slightly. However once you finish this post you'll understand the connection to what I am saying.
I remember an old interview done, I think by SAF. He went on scouting a goalkeeper for United with a member of staff. The goalkeeper in question made some breathtaking saves which impressed the member of staff but not SAF. The reason was that the goalkeeper had placed himself into this situation due to his lack in other areas (distribution of the ball, inability to understand when he's got to go out and he shouldnt, lack of leadership etc). His shot stopping however spectacular was covering evident lack in other areas.
Returning to the subject you wont see quality defenders flopping to the ground not because they aren't committed but simply because they don't need to. It never cease to fascinate me how many of the British fans are impressed by the typical physical and hardworking player who run after the ball like some dog after a bone or who commit himself to tackles when in reality these things are rarely needed. A quality defender rarely dives in tackles, a quality midfielder in a quality side rarely run after the ball like a headless chicken (although I admit that sometimes players like that are necessary) and a defender shouldn't be involved into these acts of 'commitment'.
I assure you I have not lost hope on Jones. Anyone whose been here long enough to read my posts about John OShea can assure you what its like when I believe that a player is not good enough for United. Having said that he's not first team level yet. None of our defenders are. Id say lets stabilize the defense by bringing in 2-3 quality defenders who can lead the backline (a natural right back is a must + 2 quality CBs) and let the current defense train, learn and compete for their roles with these players. Next season's campaign is long enough for every player to play enough games to be happy with. Also most of them are young enough to wait for their chance.
I find it strange that Jones gets tons of stick for this stuff while when people like Varane make mistakes everyone talks about great recovery and how he is still learning. For most people John Terry has been possibly the best defender in the league this season and if you watch regularly Chelsea as a team do so much of this last ditch defending where people are flying off all over the place. In the end the idea is to keep the other team from scoring and how it is done is irrelevant. Every single defender in the world makes errors, people are going to be shocked by the number of mistakes Hummels makes if we end up signing him but obviously because we watch our defenders everyday it does seem like that they are awful and making far too many mistakes.
I fully agree with the sentiment that a player shouldn't put themselves in the position whereby they have to perform some sort of heroic miracle to avert danger when a bit more initial savvy could have contained the situation more efficiently.
Jones does sadly have a penchant for this either through poor positioning or trying to win the ball in near impossible situations mostly, and the odd inexplicable error here or there. To his credit he generally does do a good job of cleaning up his own sh*t by and large.
My general point was about commitment. Something Jones has plenty of and it could be argued too much of on some occasions. He needs to work on his judgement and positional discipline if he wants to become a mainstay in the team.
With regards your description of the type of players we need: Do you not think Smalling comes incredibly close to being a Rioesque defender in the way he largely doesn't have to go to ground to win back the ball?
I agree, he has a fair way to go to become the player that we need at CB. However, I do like his commitment, and that clip is the funniest thing I've seen in ages.
Smalling Rio'esque? I know what you're saying - doesn't get dirty knees but a better comparison would be Gary Pallister because Smalling cant clean Rio's boots when it comes to ball skills. His Achilles heel is his ability and lack of composure on the ball. If he can somehow become a good footballer then he'd be a hell of a centre half.
Put this thread in the classics and give the OP a suitable tagline for his magnificent contribution.
It's all well and good mentioning this moment as an example of Jones having to recover; however no one ever mentions moments like in the first 5 mins where Sanchez got clean through past Valencia and Smalling, yet Jones had read the danger and didn't even come across that much, just got in the way of his route to goal and we recovered.
Jones has done this many times this season when hes been outnumbered and he's managed to hold the ball player up and block passing options to allow us to recover. But because he does have moments where he slips or makes a mistake, people judge him as a defender on those mistakes and ignore what a great defender he actually is.
It's ironic really, because the people that use defending subtleties as an argument against Jones are actually focussing too much on his action packed nature and are ignoring the subtleties he possesses by suggesting they're not there. No one denies Jones has things he needs to improve on, but he's young and got a lot of time to do so. Then someone will rave about Varane when if they watched him every week they'd realise he's just as much of a mistake waiting to happen.
Can anyone actually think of 2/3 CBs that are U23 that are better than Jones?
Jones has done this many times this season when hes been outnumbered and he's managed to hold the ball player up and block passing options to allow us to recover. But because he does have moments where he slips or makes a mistake, people judge him as a defender on those mistakes and ignore what a great defender he actually is.
It's ironic really, because the people that use defending subtleties as an argument against Jones are actually focussing too much on his action packed nature and are ignoring the subtleties he possesses by suggesting they're not there. No one denies Jones has things he needs to improve on, but he's young and got a lot of time to do so. Then someone will rave about Varane when if they watched him every week they'd realise he's just as much of a mistake waiting to happen.
Can anyone actually think of 2/3 CBs that are U23 that are better than Jones?
Good post.
Great post. I'm going to watch Jones really close because I have been critical of him before. Perhaps I remember the insane lunges too much.
The infamous crawl got included in this weeks trickbox video on the Manchester United website.
Only one that i have seen of and can speak for confidently is Laporte. Big, strong, great in the tackle, technically sound and comfortable with the ball.
Laporte, Varane, Marquinhos, Gimenez. I prefer all of them over Jones. Others in the list are on a similiar level too imo. The problem with Jones is not his age imo, for his age he is decent, but I can't see him developing anywhere near world class, a level which the other mentioned defenders will reach imo (not so sure about Marquinhos, but full of potential at least).
That dailymail list is pretty shit in a lot of positions to be honest.
That dailymail list is pretty shit in a lot of positions to be honest.
Can't quite believe people are having a go at Jones over this ffs
I've never been his biggest fan but he lost his footing and recovered any way he could. How can you criticise that?
I think he's done well second half of this season. His big problem has always been the brainfarts and, touch wood, he seems to be eliminating them. I'm expecting a good 15/16 season from him.
I've never been his biggest fan but he lost his footing and recovered any way he could. How can you criticise that?
I think he's done well second half of this season. His big problem has always been the brainfarts and, touch wood, he seems to be eliminating them. I'm expecting a good 15/16 season from him.
Exactly! So many people ignore much of his good work only to focus on his more extravagant moments. He was a great partner for Smalling during that run from Tottenham to Man. City. Most people praised Blind for being very good at left back, but Jones did an excellent job of covering for Blind and either winning the ball or slowing down the opposition enough to allow us to recover our shape. Too often do I see people ignore such good defensive work only to focus on him charging into players, slipping around, or making faces.
I never got this argument. What prevents Jones from becoming world class? What obstacle does he have to overcome that someone like Josema Gimenez (another stopper) doesn't have to overcome?
Ever since I saw him play for Blackburn as a teenager, I knew that he would become a world class stopper, and he's already moved on from his youthful exuberance that cost us points during his first season here. With his weaknesses suppressed, he just needs to adjust himself for van Gaal, and depending on how that goes, we can see if Jones can become world class as I anticipated or not.
@mazhar13 I think people generally underrate the "stopper" role and their importance to the defense. You see it with people hoping Hummels/Smalling or Varane/Smalling as their CB pair. For some their idea of a great defender is someone who never goes to ground and never throw themselves about. But, that only works if your side never deals with a dangerous attack. Defensively you would like to prevent fires from ever taking place but, when trouble comes you need a CB who can put out fires. And while Jones does not always do it gracefully he is someone who can put out fires.
Exactly, which is why Ferdi - Vida worked so well. Both could contain when they needed to however one could play his way out of trouble whilst the other was all out clatter the other guy style. Smalling - Jones will be a solid partnership if they stay fit.
For me the main reason is his intellegence. He is exactly the opposite of a clever defender. And that's just something you need to have from the beginning, everything else can improve with hard work, but I can't see Phil Jones, who has his braindead moments in every game developing into a clever defender, Vidic was better and we don't even need to talk about Rio in that regard, Smalling has much more potential here too. That's also the reason why someone like David Luiz will never be a great defender, he will have his moments where he just win all his hard tackles and runs like a maniac around the pitch while winning every ball, but the week after that he will look like a clown again.
If you were hanging over the edge of a cliff he'd be the man to pull you up on the rope but then he'd trip over it, bang his head and stagger over the edge, have his fall broken by a bush with thorns and then get bitten by a rare spider.
Completely forgot about Gimenez. He's a great prospect. For a young inexperienced defender he plays like a veteran almost.
Sums him up really well. Gets the job done but the manner in which he does it....painful
Can't believe the amount of attention this is getting. He slipped and did very well to recover. Every other player on the pitch fell on their arse at least once and some multiple times but none of them showed the same desire to recover as Jones did so he should be credited for that if anything
And you believe that he will never overcome those few braindead moments? I can't say the same, myself. The fact that he's improved on this regard ever since he first came here tells me that he's overcoming that weakness and isn't just stalling on it like David Luiz did.
Another thing I will mention is that Jones gets lambasted for these moments, but when defenders like Terry, Cahill, Ashley Williams, Koscielny, or Kompany become overaggressive and successfully recover, they are lauded for it.
I don't think he's "braindead". He just sometimes seems ungainly. Not entirely in control of his body. This "crawl" episode showed it but it was just the latest in a long line of funny events like this.
He's nothing like Luiz. For starters, his positioning is good. His mistakes tend to be feckups on the ball, slips etc not failing to track his man.
Exactly this.
Jones is still quite young for a central defender. It's why I still do have hopes for him in the future, and I certainly don't want him sold.
He's not ready to be our first choice central defender yet though.
He's not ready to be our first choice central defender yet though.