Only happened twice... We beat Wolves in the cup and he was sent off in a 3-4 defeat in Blackburn. I wouldn't call it a success but it wasn't a disaster. The whole United team wasn't exactly vintage and he was partnered with Rooney!
Phil Jones
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
If Centreback is going to be his position he's got a hell of a lot to learn and fast.
Vidic (3 years at least), Ferdinand (1 year) Evans (8 years?) Smalling (10 years+) all ahead of him. Both Evans and Smalling are light years ahead of him in terms of technical ability and the mental aspect of defending.
Now that the initial buzz surrounding him has settled and his honeymoon period is over we are left looking at a youngster who is realistically 2 or 3 seasons away from being a polished player. The problem he has is that the players in his position now are also young and will also get better. He's very much going to be the new O'Shea IMO.
Vidic (3 years at least), Ferdinand (1 year) Evans (8 years?) Smalling (10 years+) all ahead of him. Both Evans and Smalling are light years ahead of him in terms of technical ability and the mental aspect of defending.
Now that the initial buzz surrounding him has settled and his honeymoon period is over we are left looking at a youngster who is realistically 2 or 3 seasons away from being a polished player. The problem he has is that the players in his position now are also young and will also get better. He's very much going to be the new O'Shea IMO.
That's a fair point but it does prove that Fergie was actively considering him for that role and gave up on the project sharpish.
I read Roy Keane was played at right back at first for United, perhaps Fergie is following that course with Jones as well.
I'm not sure at all... It was after Keane left and Scholes was out with his eye problem, we weren't exactly fully stocked in midfield. For whatever reason, Smith, O'Shea and Giggs, the three main players to form our midfield in the second half of the season (Smith until his injury, anyway) were not in the squad for Blackburn. So I don't know if there was ever anything in it beyond one or two matches for the simple lack of options.
I think Jones has the basic abilities to become a terrific midfielder. Or a right back. Or a centerhalf. But we will need to make up our minds. There's no reason for this kid to become an O'Shea - a decent player at several positions. He can be world class in one or two.
Evans isn't going to be ahead of him, and I think you're exaggerating how much better he is. He's not got better technical ability than Jones. Not that it really matters for a centre back and not that Jones is brilliant on the ball himself, but he's not better on the ball than him.
People are only really saying that Evans is a much better player than him based on the past few months. Yes, Evans has played well, while Jones hasn't, but I still expect Jones to comfortably be the better defender of the two in a couple of years, and I expect him to probably be light years ahead of Evans once he reaches his prime.
Evans is a good player who will continue to improve, but I don't see him being anymore than a good defender to be honest, even if some disagree. I feel that with Jones, on the other hand, he really has the potential to be a top class centre back when he's developed more and ironed out the mistakes in his game, which are largely down to inexperience in all fairness.
I just don't agree that Jones will become a new O'Shea for us. It's nothing against O'Shea, but he was largely a utility player because he couldn't really permanently nail down a spot in the team. Jones will probably be able to once he reaches his prime, and those who say he won't be able to are probably basing it on a few months of poor form, which is a bit kneejerk.
Based on what, exactly?
There's nothing as of yet to suggest Jones will be better than Evans so I think you're being a bit idealistic about Jones's future development to be honest. Evans has already demonstrated he's capable of a great season (twice) where as for me Jones has never demonstrated his capabilities as a CB, for Blackburn he just didn't have to consider positioning as he spent nearly all his time in front of two other defenders as a ball winner.
Evans has better technique than Jones as well.
I think you'll find you are severely under estimating Evans ability. I followed him through reserved level where he was a clear cut above everyone, including Piqué. At Sunderland in his first spell he was excellent and quickly became a mainstay in a Championship winning team and did the same at Shbderland a year later in a tough situation helping them avoid relegation. A year after that he would go on to play in 6 of the 11 game clean sheet run, 1 more than Ferdinand and just 22 years old.
This season and still only 24 he's made the spot his own and alongside Ferdinand has looked assured, solid and despite what you might believe, technically sound. Statistically he is by far our best passing Centreback and he carries the ball forward very well as well. He's not blood and thunder like jones and he's not silky like Smalling. He's just a quality Centreback who is improving all the time. He's going to be fantastic in a couple of seasons and Smallings quality is there for all to see already I just can't see how Jones will get ahead of them. He has shown none of the intelligence and natural defensive craft that Evans shown at his age. On the contrary he has shown himself to be naive and prone to a rush of blood to the head. He's not a natural defender by any stretch of the imagination, a natural footballer, sure.
First off that's a bit of nonsense(the first bit bolded). Evans' technical ability is much better than Jones'. I feel much better seeing Evans trying to control the ball or shimmying past an opposition player of our defenders apart from Rio. Not sure what's wrong with your eyes there.
Or could be because Evans has performed well every season he's been a first teamer apart from 10/11. He was a better defender than Jones at Jones' age and is miles ahead of him now. Evans has merited starting ahead of Vidic and Ferdinand on occasion and done so and performed well.
Based on what exactly? Can only think people say stuff like this because of Jones' bursting runs forward or his Terry-like tackles.
You lot are either underrating/overrating Jones or underrating/overrating Evans in here. No middle ground.
Nah. Jones has the potential to be a great player, where that is though no one knows for sure. Evans is already a quality CB and could become even better.
Keane was quality at right back. Just ran at them like a tank!
I get the feeling we're not going for the much needed Martinez/M'Vila type midfielder because SAF thinks that could be Jones, which I'm worried about because I still see him as a center back.
Jones is still incredible young but has shown that he has great drive and loves a tackle. Also pretty good on the ball. I think he needs a season or two to refine his positioning and reading of the game. I can see him playing RB a lot until he works on these as he is sometimes still a bit naive in the centre. Will be a great player no doubt though
Is anyone overrating Evans? He's had 2 excellent seasons for us in which we'd have been fecked in both had we not had him. Further, and it's already been said, but he was better than Pique for our reserves, a better defender at 19 than Jones, and was fantastic for Sunderland - their fans were raving about him from what I can remember. I think he joined them in January in the Championship and was consistently one of their best players in every game onwards from that point.
Basically, he's one of the best defenders of his age on the planet.
He's your old fashioned blood and thunder player. Physical steam roller who gets stuck in which is why everyone loves him. I'm just not sure how valuable an asset that sort of player will be in the future of football where technicality and intelligence is clearly going to reign with the referees encouraging it and discouraging Jones' style physical style of play.
I'd trade him for Martinez in a heartbeat.
Martinez is at another level but Jones is a few years younger. I think the Jones type of player still has a place, hell there were many times this season where we were crying out for a fiery character like Roy Keane.
I think the thing with such a role is that it is now more important than ever to be a good ball player as well as a great destroyer. Basically the player Busquets is.
I meant when comparing the 2. I definitely don't think Evans was a much better defender than Jones aged 19.
I suppose it's a difficult one to be fair given that, at Jones' age, Evans was playing in the Championship.
For me, he had better positioning, better reading of the game, more composed in defence, better one on one...etc
I'd like to say there's clear daylight on the defensive side of things but, yeah, I suppose it's not like we're comparing Baresi with Bramble. Jones strikes me as someone, similar to Bale, who's development curve will rise very sharply at one point. Not sure why, just an impression I get.
For me, he had better positioning, better reading of the game, more composed in defence, better one on one...etc
I'd like to say there's clear daylight on the defensive side of things but, yeah, I suppose it's not like we're comparing Baresi with Bramble. Jones strikes me as someone, similar to Bale, who's development curve will rise very sharply at one point. Not sure why, just an impression I get.
Indeed, that would be very concerning. Think Jones could still come on as a midfielder (although I've previously felt that he wouldn't develop a sufficient enough level of technical ability), and the talent is clearly there for him to become excellent in some position, but he is not the answer yet.
I would honestly wank myself silly if we got Martinez. I can't remember the last time there was such a perfect player out there for a United. To be honest, it was probably when Essien was at the height of his powers for Chelsea, which wasn't really long ago...but yeah, Martinez would be absolutely spot on. We could control the midfield in pretty much any game with Rooney dropping back, we could still play to our strengths and play this magical midfield two with two wingers in Valencia and Nani and, more importantly, it would have enough defensive know how to allow our full backs to get forward and to allow our front men to do what they please.
Getting a bit giddy thinking about it, really.
Evans can look comfortable on the ball at times, but he's a disaster waiting to happen when the opposition apply pressure to him. I'm not saying that Jones is incredible himself on the ball, and I've actually been one to criticise him for his forward runs and I felt myself that people overrated him on the ball, but I still feel that he has a lot more ability than Evans.
You're exaggerating with Evans as well here. Every other season? He was never exactly brilliant in 09/10 and was lucky enough to find himself beside Vidic when he was having one of the best spells in his career, as well as Van Der Sar playing superbly in goal then as well. Evans wasn't exactly poor, but I do feel that people overstate his performances in a defence where those who he had beside him really helped him out to be honest. This has been his first very good season, and even then, he was exposed in a couple of our most important matches as well. Even now, his best performances come in the easier games when he's not really put under a lot of pressure.
Jones has clearly looked like a very good defender at times who is simply inexperienced and still has a lot to learn as a player as well. Most people were hyping him up beyond belief at the start of last season, and it just seems that they've suddenly changed their mind on him based on a few months of poor form, where his flaws are all ones that can be fixed with playing time and experience.
This seems a very unfavourable interpretation of the events, to be honest. I remember that run of games when Van Der Sar got the clean sheet record, for example...I love Van Der Sar, but he had virtually nothing to do because of the way whole defence performed. Genuinely, he had about a save every other game to make. Evans has been really, really good before this season, and has not simply been carried by Vidic.
Fantastic for Sunderland (for two half seasons - helping them to promotion, and helping them stay up), fantastic for us.
basically jones still needs time to get the blood and thunder approach from Blackburn and Sam Allardyce out of his system while we make him into a more refined fletcher. Fergie's new golden boy
I find it weird how anyone who has watched both Jones and Evans this season can say that Jones is better technically than Evans. Evans is as good as Ferdinand with the ball in his feet, the best young CB in the league when it comes to composure. Jones currently doesnt come close.
I dont see how Evans can be a "disaster waiting to happen" when pressured either.. He seems to have excellent awareness of passing options. Hardly ever hoofs the ball and has made a low amount of errors this season, which is especially impressive when he is a "pass the ball out of trouble" kind of player.
I dont see how Evans can be a "disaster waiting to happen" when pressured either.. He seems to have excellent awareness of passing options. Hardly ever hoofs the ball and has made a low amount of errors this season, which is especially impressive when he is a "pass the ball out of trouble" kind of player.
Such true words
Since the other points have been addressed by others I'll tackle this. For me, I haven't rated him more or less over the course of the season. Yes I've wanted others to start ahead of him at various points but that's normal when you see a player out of form. I noticed some flaws earlier in the season but I was mostly for him playing because he was doing well. When he started doing badly quite rightly people were wary of him playing. Simple as that. Don't think you'll find many people who don't want Jones here or that think he'll not go on to be great or at least good player.
Jones will end up at the least a very good versatile defender or at best a top class centre back.
I don't think his long term position is midfield, it's not his discipline that worries me as he's only 19/20 but he doesn't strike me as somoene who is cool enough in possession when players close him down. Having a midfielder who isn't comfortable when being pressed is just an accident waiting to happen.
I think his long term position is centre back and the one thing he does have over Evans is the fact he's physically a tank. He's extremely quick and although he's not tall he's good in the air too. Evans is certainly the better player right now, he was also a better CB than Jones at his age but that doesn't mean that much considering Jones is still raw. I think Smalling will be better than both.
Currently a very good right back too, extremely good crosser of the ball and can make his barnstorming runs forward whilst being a more aerially solid option than Rafa.
I don't think his long term position is midfield, it's not his discipline that worries me as he's only 19/20 but he doesn't strike me as somoene who is cool enough in possession when players close him down. Having a midfielder who isn't comfortable when being pressed is just an accident waiting to happen.
I think his long term position is centre back and the one thing he does have over Evans is the fact he's physically a tank. He's extremely quick and although he's not tall he's good in the air too. Evans is certainly the better player right now, he was also a better CB than Jones at his age but that doesn't mean that much considering Jones is still raw. I think Smalling will be better than both.
Currently a very good right back too, extremely good crosser of the ball and can make his barnstorming runs forward whilst being a more aerially solid option than Rafa.
No. Agree with a lot of what you said, but that is plain wrong. And a few good crosses, does not make up for all the ones that end up in the crowd.
Really? Strange, I always thought he was one of our best crossers of the ball. Seems to get some whip on it and generally goes into a dangerous area. I might be totally wrong though.
Think Allardyce said something about crossing being a real strength of Jones'. From what I've seen, it's been mixed.
Young player in being inconsistent shocker.
Young player in being inconsistent shocker.
I thought Jones' crossing was terrific around the start to the middle of the season.
Then he got injured, lost form and his crossing was dire and effectively Jamie Carragher at right back.
Then he got injured, lost form and his crossing was dire and effectively Jamie Carragher at right back.
His crossing came good again as his form in general picked up again. Peach of a cross to set Rooney up for his goal against Sunderland.
Well I think there are a lot whose opinions have changed completely on him. Many saying that he's only going to be a utility player who sometimes plays would've been touting him up as a world class player potentially back at the start of the season. That shows a clear change in opinion.
I think the whole thing with Evans is an example as that. Yes, Evans has had a good season, but I think it's ridiculous to suggest that he's light years ahead of Jones. If you truly believe that then you're either grossly overrating Evans or grossly underrating Jones.
As a centerback Jones is about 2 years experience away from Evans, they currently aren't close.
Yeah though I am currently trying to scrub the last weekend of the Premier League from my mind.
I thought his performances in the last few games of the season as a whole were pretty good. He was very solid defensively and I don't think we would have let 4 goals in if he had started against Everton.
I disagree, at 19 Evans was much much better. Evans is now 5 years on and I'll admit he isn't as good as the promise at 19 suggested he would be, he is still a long way ahead of Jones.
Jones has made a reputation here from his charging runs and his 110% attitude. If you assess his actual defensive attributes they don't read well:
Tackling: Rash, sometimes very good.
Positioning: Atrocious
Heading: Not good enough
Reading of play: Not good enough
Composure: Erratic
Decision Making: Equally erratic
Like I said, he's got all the physical and some of the technical attributes to be a great footballer, along with the attitude but he really has a long way to go before he can be trusted as a defender.
You do realise I said basically the same thing you did?
Yeah I guess you did, I just don't think he is 2 years off Evans. In two years time I think we'll all still feel a little uncomfortable when he is named as a starting CB. I'd love to be wrong though, I genuinely like the lad and two years training at United while getting first team games is a long time. If his learning curve is anything like as steep as Smallings he'll be quality in a couple of years. I'm not saying it's impossible I just think it's unlikely he will be ahead of Smalling, Evans or Vidic in two years.