Phil Jones

What kind of role do people think Jones could play in midfield? I don't think he has the natural ability or game awareness to be a great CM. At best he could perform a Fletcher type role where he relies more on physical abilities than his brain a la Wilshere/Cleverley etc.

He could however become a quality ball playing centre half. He isn't a stupid player by any means but he could improve on his reading of the game. Shock horror, he's 19 and Evans is 23. He has the ability and time on his hands to learn where to make tackles and where to use those physical traits to shut attackers down, like Rio did in his prime. That's something I think Evans still struggles with. Smalling is my favourite of the 3, I hope we see more of him next season at centre half.
 
Steven Seagull said:
What kind of role do people think Jones could play in midfield? I don't think he has the natural ability or game awareness to be a great CM. At best he could perform a Fletcher type role where he relies more on physical abilities than his brain a la Wilshere/Cleverley etc.

He could however become a quality ball playing centre half. He isn't a stupid player by any means but he could improve on his reading of the game. Shock horror, he's 19 and Evans is 23. He has the ability and time on his hands to learn where to make tackles and where to use those physical traits to shut attackers down, like Rio did in his prime. That's something I think Evans still struggles with. Smalling is my favourite of the 3, I hope we see more of him next season at centre half.
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You couldn't have got fletcher more wrong. It's because he's such an intelligent player he's got as far as he has despite his shortcomings in the creative area. It's not his physical work but his footballing brain that makes him the player he is.

In regards to Jones, I think "midfield destroyer" could be his role. He will learn positioning in time and in midfield it won't be such a disaster if he's caught out.

His charging forward if refined can cause some real problems, hes so unrefined as a player right now it's untrue. That's the result of the Blackburn academy instead of a United, Arsenal, Clairfontaine or La Masia.
 
Cheesy said:
I'm not overrating him at all. When I say he's up there with the best in the world, I mean probably just in the top 5. He's not of the level of the players you mentioned, but he's still a top quality defender, and is much better than Evans nevertheless.

I don't deny that Evans has had a very good season, and I think he'll be a good player for us. It just stems back to my original point though on topic, that I expect Jones to be a better centre back than him when he reaches his prime and I expect Smalling and him to be our future partnership, with Evans maybe still here as backup, unless he's desperate to be a starter elsewhere, which would be fair enough I guess.
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Ironically, even after Rio retires and Vidic's aging, he may well find himself in a worse position than he was at when being back-up for Rio-Vidic. Reminiscent of Tomasz Kuszczak's agony after long-awaited Van der Sar's departure.
 
Pexbo said:
In regards to Piqué, I always think he's a well above average defender but nowhere near world class with a lot of the attributes of a top midfielder without having the pace, engine or agility to be an actual top midfielder. As a result you have a player who would be an above average but not great defender or average midfielder at any other club in the world but in Barca's team fits like an octagon peg in an octagon hole.
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Exactly. The same case goes for many other Barca's outfield players. The chemistry is unbelievable.
 
Steven Seagull said:
What kind of role do people think Jones could play in midfield? I don't think he has the natural ability or game awareness to be a great CM. At best he could perform a Fletcher type role where he relies more on physical abilities than his brain a la Wilshere/Cleverley etc.

He could however become a quality ball playing centre half. He isn't a stupid player by any means but he could improve on his reading of the game. Shock horror, he's 19 and Evans is 23. He has the ability and time on his hands to learn where to make tackles and where to use those physical traits to shut attackers down, like Rio did in his prime. That's something I think Evans still struggles with. Smalling is my favourite of the 3, I hope we see more of him next season at centre half.
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How many of the top central midfielders looked amazing at 20? I wouldn't worry about him not having the ability to become a central midfielder.

One thing I've noticed that happens in many sports that is hard for people to appreciate is what happens when a young player starts to learn advanced team tactics. Young players don't have the tactical awareness of a more experienced player, the often rely on their athleticism or individual technique to get ahead, they're less likely to have a strong team around them to rely upon anyway.

When a young star joins a top team they often start out looking good, the team's quality means they have time and space on the ball and they can use their often superior athleticism to take advantage. But when they start to take on advanced tactics suddenly their have to re-learn their instincts, re-train themselves how to react in each situation, they start to look awkward. Imho this happened to Nani and Evans for example. I never believed they had lost their talent, I always think of it as waiting for them to come out of the other side of the tunnel.

If Scott Parker can become the EPL player of the season doing what he does, Jones may win the Ballon d'Or doing the same thing. ;)
 
Pexbo said:
You couldn't have got fletcher more wrong. It's because he's such an intelligent player he's got as far as he has despite his shortcomings in the creative area. It's not his physical work but his footballing brain that makes him the player he is
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I don't agree with that about Fletcher. He's got a good footballing brain, all players at this level have. But he's definitely relied at least equally on his physical abilities to allow him to look so dominant in certain games until his illness and subsequent fitness problems.

In regards to Jones, I think "midfield destroyer" could be his role. He will learn positioning in time and in midfield it won't be such a disaster if he's caught out.

His charging forward if refined can cause some real problems, hes so unrefined as a player right now it's untrue. That's the result of the Blackburn academy instead of a United, Arsenal, Clairfontaine or La Masia.
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That's what I'm worried about. I believe the things that need refining in his game (in order to become a quality midfielder) are the basic skills you're taught at La Masia when you're 12. The positioning and other things that need refining for him to become a centre half can, and will be learned with experience



gooDevil said:
How many of the top central midfielders looked amazing at 20? I wouldn't worry about him not having the ability to become a central midfielder
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I've just named one in my post. Surely you can see Wilshere is far more technically proficient with a football than Jones, and that's without even mentioning his spatial awareness and vision. I know it's an old joke on the caf about improving "technique after 16 years of age", but there's more than an element of truth to that. I don't think Jones is a good enough footballer to warrant persisting with him as any more than the midfield destroyer Pexbo sees him as, and I think that would be a waste of the qualities that could be used to become a top class centre half.

The whole thing reminds me slightly of trying to get Rio to play in midfield, rather than just finding a natural quality CM
 
Fergie needs to find him a position and play him there until he gets it.

I don't see how playing him all over will help out his game.
 
Steven Seagull said:
I've just named one in my post. Surely you can see Wilshere is far more technically proficient with a football than Jones, and that's without even mentioning his spatial awareness and vision. I know it's an old joke on the caf about improving "technique after 16 years of age", but there's more than an element of truth to that. I don't think Jones is a good enough footballer to warrant persisting with him as any more than the midfield destroyer Pexbo sees him as, and I think that would be a waste of the qualities that could be used to become a top class centre half.

The whole thing reminds me slightly of trying to get Rio to play in midfield, rather than just finding a natural quality CM
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I didn't ask you to name one, but I'm sure you understood my point, center backs and central midfielders take longer to mature because their job is more about decision making than speed or dribbling. You usually see those players come great in the mid to late 20s.

I don't think all of your outfield players should be silky Wilshere types, I think you need at least 1 player more defensively minded, but good enough offensively to keep the ball moving. Combative box-to-box midfielders rarely dribble the ball as well as Wilshere. Though I'm sure if there was another Wilshere available we'd buy him, might player him next to Jones in the future.

Jones can come to be just as good on the ball as Carrick which has been good enough to win the Champion's League and the Premiere League. If we didn't have SAF in charge of handling the whole thing I might have more doubt.
 
gooDevil said:
I didn't ask you to name one, but I'm sure you understood my point, center backs and central midfielders take longer to mature because their job is more about decision making than speed or dribbling. You usually see those players come great in the mid to late 20s.

I don't think all of your outfield players should be silky Wilshere types, I think you need at least 1 player more defensively minded, but good enough offensively to keep the ball moving. Combative box-to-box midfielders rarely dribble the ball as well as Wilshere. Though I'm sure if there was another Wilshere available we'd buy him, might player him next to Jones in the future.

Jones can come to be just as good on the ball as Carrick which has been good enough to win the Champion's League and the Premiere League. If we didn't have SAF in charge of handling the whole thing I might have more doubt.
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Jones is never going to be a Carrick. Dynamism is what he brings to the midfield, certainly not the awareness of what's around him that Carrick has. Of course he'll improve in this regard with age and experience, but that's never the type of player he's going to be. The awareness needed to be a top centre-half is, however, within his grasp. He'll be an awesome centre-back.
 
gooDevil said:
I didn't ask you to name one, but I'm sure you understood my point, center backs and central midfielders take longer to mature because their job is more about decision making than speed or dribbling. You usually see those players come great in the mid to late 20s.

I don't think all of your outfield players should be silky Wilshere types, I think you need at least 1 player more defensively minded, but good enough offensively to keep the ball moving. Combative box-to-box midfielders rarely dribble the ball as well as Wilshere. Though I'm sure if there was another Wilshere available we'd buy him, might player him next to Jones in the future.

Jones can come to be just as good on the ball as Carrick which has been good enough to win the Champion's League and the Premiere League. If we didn't have SAF in charge of handling the whole thing I might have more doubt.
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Carrick at 17 was a much better user of the ball than Jones is now, that midfield of 17 year old Carrick, 17 year old Cole and 19 year old Lampard was really exciting back in the day.
 
gooDevil said:
I didn't ask you to name one, but I'm sure you understood my point, center backs and central midfielders take longer to mature because their job is more about decision making than speed or dribbling. You usually see those players come great in the mid to late 20s.

I don't think all of your outfield players should be silky Wilshere types, I think you need at least 1 player more defensively minded, but good enough offensively to keep the ball moving. Combative box-to-box midfielders rarely dribble the ball as well as Wilshere. Though I'm sure if there was another Wilshere available we'd buy him, might player him next to Jones in the future.

Jones can come to be just as good on the ball as Carrick which has been good enough to win the Champion's League and the Premiere League. If we didn't have SAF in charge of handling the whole thing I might have more doubt.
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Don't agree at all. That's comparing ducks to swans.
 
Phil Jones is a centre back. A very, very good centre back at that. If you put a composed ball playing centre half beside him like Rio or Smalling and give him licence to attack the ball and throw his body at it you have a player who could credibly emerge to be the next Bruce, Stam or Vida. We should stop trying to shoehorn him into midfield or turn him into a makeshift full back and let him have a good focussed run of games in his preferred role so he can really learn that position and be ready to make it his when the time is right.
 
I think of Rio and Vida and the idea sort of CB pairing, but my memory is that Rio was the one who went out and attacked the ball and Vida stayed a bit behind him, before this season where they switched sides. Rio would attack the balls that were played in front of the CBs and Vida would go after the ones played behind them. Am I wrong?

Jones seems more like Vida than Rio in this way, Rio's amazing reading of the game lets him go right to the place where a headed ball will land nearly every time. Vida went out to attack the ball this season, before he was injured, but he wasn't as good at it as Rio. Smalling seems to be the most natural reader of the ball in our defense and I'd like to see him paired with Vida next season and given a chance to take up Rio's old role.

Since Vida will be a starter for quite a while and has as much steel as any defender ever born, I'd want him paired with a silky defender like Smalling. I think Jones would be stuck behind Vida for many years if the plan is for him to become a blood and thunder defender.
 
#07 said:
Phil Jones is a centre back. A very, very good centre back at that. If you put a composed ball playing centre half beside him like Rio or Smalling and give him licence to attack the ball and throw his body at it you have a player who could credibly emerge to be the next Bruce, Stam or Vida. We should stop trying to shoehorn him into midfield or turn him into a makeshift full back and let him have a good focussed run of games in his preferred role so he can really learn that position and be ready to make it his when the time is right.
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You do realise the Jones and Ferdinand partnership conceded 11 goals in 5 games together? 2.2 per game.

The Ferdinand - Evans Partnership conceded 16 in 19 games together....
 
Jones starting as a right back for England tonight, shouldnt really have any troubles with either of the wingers Norway will throw at him, and he should look good against us.
 
Pexbo said:
You do realise the Jones and Ferdinand partnership conceded 11 goals in 5 games together? 2.2 per game.

The Ferdinand - Evans Partnership conceded 16 in 19 games together....
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Whilst I agree Evans is a much better parter for Rio now, would it be possible to see the teams that played in these games please? Would be quite interesting to see the CM partners in front of them
 
Don't think Jones was helped by how narrow England defended and by the fact he was seemingly told not to overlap in 2nd half, there weren't many England players showing for the ball either. Jones just looks a bit tired to me, he's such an energetic player but he's still very young. Hopefully the time with Gary Neville will do him some good. He'll be a fabulous CB eventually, patience is needed.
 
KingEric7 said:
Was decent, I thought.
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Yupp, but he was hardly tested though. Showed some really nice composure I thought but he was hardly under any pressure in a friendly against Norway. Still, it's good to see that he was one of the very few who came away looking good after the game.
 
I clenched when I saw this get bumped. I immediately thought "injured". Phew...
 
Cold_Boy said:
Most of our players have not so fit girlfriends or wives.

Wtf Phil!
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She is lovely

kaya-hall-uk-wags-2.jpg
 
I always kind of presumed Jonsey was gay :nervous:

Fit bird though, well in lad :drool:
 
RedDevilCanuck said:
Fergie needs to find him a position and play him there until he gets it.

I don't see how playing him all over will help out his game.
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I think Centreback will be his eventual position because thats where he envisions himself. Unfortunately though, we had too many injuries to our back line for him to play consistently in one spot.

Its not like he played poorly at right back either. He was fantastic right from the off and I really enjoy watching his ability to bomb forwards.
 
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