Player Power

[afrocentricity]

I've heard the accusations about players downing tools in an attempt to get rid of the manager.

It's not the first time I've heard them either. I recall the same accusations around Moyes departure.

I'm old school I still think nobody should be bigger than the club, but what I think, and what is the reality in 2018, may no longer be the same thing. Collectively, the players probably do have more 'power' than the manager.

Anyway, discuss... do you think this is what happened and how do you feel about it?

 

[DWelbz19]

It tends to happen frequently at certain clubs who have the displeasure of being coached by certain managers.

 

[Siorac]

I've heard the accusations about players downing tools in an attempt to get rid of the bad manager.

It's not the first time I've heard them either. I recall the same accusations around Moyes departure.

I'm old school I still think nobody should be bigger than the club, but what I think, and what is the reality in 2018, may no longer be the same thing. Collectively, the players probably do have more 'power' than the manager.

Anyway, discuss... do you think this is what happened and how do you feel about it? Sorry if there's already a thread....

But that applies to the manager, too. This should not be forgotten; United fans tend to overlook this because of Sir Alex Ferguson but he was an anomaly.

Players are more expensive and more difficult to replace than managers. They simply have more value overall.

 

[AndyJ1985]

I wouldn't blame players for trying to get rid of a tosser like Mourinho.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Normally I don’t think players should wield that power but come on, we’ve seen first hand the effect Jose was having on the club, if ever there was a case of player power being a good thing, it’s here and now

 

[haram]

If Jose falls out with a player like Pogba, who do you think the players are going to side with really? Everyone loves Pogba, Jose never wins that dressing room battle. Pogba on top of that is the most talened player in the squad, everyone including Jose knew that.

 

[Adisa]

There's not industry where the staff cannot get you out of a job if they choose to.
The fundamental part of being a manager in any job is to get the people you manage on-side.
If players had downed downed tools at any point under Ferguson, he would have been gone. There's no person above that rule unless you own the bloody thing.

 

[BrianMcClair'sBarnet]

I feel the players definitely downed tools under Moyes. I dont think having a ego in the dressing room such as Rio helped matters,as much as I rate the guy.
Him and Giggs were school Fergie and they couldn't see past that.Again understandable.That's not to say Moyes didn't mess up as he clearly did but I dont think the experienced players helped matters.

I also dont think all of the players necessarily downed tools under LVG or Jose.Even in Jose's last match against Liverpool I thought the players effort was apparent. I just think they ,along with the fans,got depressed by the football and Jose constant bickering in the media.By all account he was a different person inside Carrington. But who wants to keep playing that game ? eventually that will wear you down.

 

[Gopher Brown]

“No player is bigger than the club” is the original “Brexit means Brexit”

An empty soundbite which sounds like it means something, but that falls apart on closer inspection.

 

[Welbeckham]

”No manager is bigger than the club” is also very relevant nowadays with these egoistic managers like Mourinho and Conte. When pretty much every single player stalled with their development or declined under Mourinho, if anything, we sacked him too late.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Doesn't Ramos have a lot of power in the Madrid dressing room?

 

[Chipper]

Players do have different levels of motivation under different managers. I'm not entirely sure whether it's conscious or subconscious but that exists.

The fundamental part of being a manager in any job is to get the people you manage on-side.

This is it ultimately. The job of the manager is to get the players to perform.

Even if a team had an entire squad full of dickheads, primadonnas or to quote Fergie's take on Paul Ince "big time Charlie's" then he has to realise that and suck them off so that they produce the best results possible. It might be unpalatable, the manager might wish he had easier or 'better' characters to work with etc. and maybe he can work on getting rid of the bad eggs over time but he needs to treat them accordingly over the duration that they and he are at the club together.

If someone else could come in and get better results out of the same sets of players than you can by treating players differently then that person is a better manager for that set of players than you are.

This isn't me saying the entire United playing staff or even any of them are bellends btw, it's not team specific, and I don't think any team really has a squad entirely made of them. You just have to adapt though, being a football manager is a short-term gig, especially these days that's part of the job.

You can't expect players to be self-motivated to produce at the same level regardless of how you interact with them. It would be nice if you could, and I do like of the idea of a pro being a pro as it were, totally self motivated and producing anyway even if he didn't like the manager etc. That's how I used to see players and how they 'should' be seeing as they're getting paid so much etc. I thought they should be like machines and it was actually a bit of a hard pill to swallow when I realised they weren't. Some can and will I'm sure, but not everyone can so the manager has to treat them the best way to get the best results even if they're unpleasant narcissistic bellends or cry babies. It's the results that count.

 

[steeeb]

When you are a high level athlete every little counts.

If you think things should be better and the manager is saying the wrong things it can dsmotivate you.

A devlmotivated player and a motivated player can give there all - but at a high level it makes a world of difference.

It's like a striker that's banging them in for fun can keep doing so. But a player that hasn't scored in a couple of games can miss sitters. It's not because he's not trying it's a confidence thing.

 

[IrishRedDevil]

‘‘If a player thinks they are above the control of a manger, there is only one word to say to them - goodbye.’’ SAF.

That quote from the great man might be slipping away in modern football.

 

[Rozay]

I’ve always disagreed with the criticism of ‘player power’, and the use of the term as some negative. The most important people in the game are the players.

There’s a wider conversation to be had about money in football, for example, but so long as it’s there, the players should be the ones benefitting the most.

They are spoilt babies, but the suits in the game need to find ways to work with them I think.

 

[Maxii]

I would like to think that the players have a bit of a say in how the team plays. If someone feels like a certain system is not working or if they have any ideas on how things on the pitch could be improved, then I would like a manager to not just dismiss their opinion and to take all things into consideration.

Obviously there is a limit to this and ultimately what a manager says goes, but I think being stubborn and thinking your way is the only way and it’s not working out then you’re going to have problems.

I’m not saying that players should decide what tactics the team should use, and if some players are overstepping the boundaries and causing trouble because they want everything their way well then they should be pulled up on it, but a bit of open discussion and feeling like their opinions matter would surely improve their motivation.

 

[Buster15]

‘‘If a player thinks they are above the control of a manger, there is only one word to say to them - goodbye.’’ SAF.

That quote from the great man might be slipping away in modern football.

I really don't get this so called 'modern footballer'.

To me it is a typical silly generalisation that means nothing.
Fifteen years ago the class of 92 were modern players.

If anybody thinks that SAF was always nice to them, read his books or look at youtube.
He always used to shout and ball out Ryan Giggs while never shouting at Eric Cantona even after the dreaded kick.

He certainly didn't always put his arm round them even if they won.

I fully appreciate that SAF was brilliant at man management but so called modern players would still love him.

 

[RedNed77]

I've heard the accusations about players downing tools in an attempt to get rid of the manager.

It's not the first time I've heard them either. I recall the same accusations around Moyes departure.

I'm old school I still think nobody should be bigger than the club, but what I think, and what is the reality in 2018, may no longer be the same thing. Collectively, the players probably do have more 'power' than the manager.

Anyway, discuss... do you think this is what happened and how do you feel about it?

I don’t personally think they downed tools. I think they were just unclear on what Moyes and Jose wanted from them. Be creative but stay in this rigid formation, be like Phil Jagielka, proshess. Our last three managers have been a combo of inept/incoherent/contradictory. Even worse with the last manager they were thrown out for the dogs when they failed to interpret the impenetrable instructions. It was easier for them to just sit back and put in 6/7 out of 10 performances each week. They couldnt even work their arse off for Jose as he wanted them to sit back to conserve energy and shape. It was a hiding to nothing.

 

[SCP]

If by this topic you mean Pogba then... One thing is to say its factual players today have more power than they had 25 years ago. Doesn't matter if it is Pogba wih Raiola as his agent or Ronaldo with Jorge Mendes.

Does that mean his performances were bad because he wanted to sack Mourinho? No, because if it was only this time it could be true. Problem is this is the third consecutive club it happened under the same manager. So he is responsible for that.

But yes, players and agents are more powerfull today than in the past.

 

[Sayros]

Players have far more power than ever before, and that's across most sports. They generate insane sums of money and they are the product more than anything else in football. Before, those players had close to no rights or power, but once football became about money over anything else, that's when players slowly started realizing and executing their power. Personally, I think it's better now than it was in the past. Things are a bit more balanced between ownership and the players and, as someone mentioned earlier, it's much easier to replace a manager than a bunch of players.

 

[Florida Man]

I don’t necessarily support players downing tools but a new manager has to have earned that stature of being the Boss like Fergie did. Ole is new but comes in already with authority because of his history with the club. If Ole or another manager can succeed for a long time, he will have all the leverage over player power.

 

[Tincanalley]

Player power will hurt the game even more in the future if it continues to grow. Let’s forget recent scenes at United or whether or no Pogba & Co. ‘Downed tools’. You saw it at Chelsea; we have seen it at international level. Moyes felt it here.

In some cases you can understand the players- read Rio on Moyes for example. But it’s not a big step to the point at which players become entirely unmanageable. Remember Rooney’s agent whispering in his ear to the frustration of SAF. It’s a team game. I look forward to the memoirs of players of this era who played a major team role - without fanfare, without the big wages, the major sponsors.

Let me pause to salute and show my respect to the effective and dedicated ‘squad players’; and to thank our lucky stars for the generosity and commitment of the low profile pros.

 

[M Utd]

It's a fickle sport with fickle fans. Fans rarely moan about a player who downs tools for a move to their club but are up in arms when one of their current players does the same tactic.
I do lose patience with players when the throw those toys out of the pram. They are paid (and paid well) to fulfil a contract. Sadly most players who act up and up getting what they want. It makes me have even greater respect for someone like De Gea as there have probably been plenty of times he's been advised to speak in the press or start with the antics to force a move when Real came sniffing. Credit it to him he did his job like a true professional.

 

[RochaRoja]

I’ll never understand why people want players to be subservient bots who follow the demands of a manager no matter how daft or unreasonable they are.

It seems to be a big thing in Britain especially. Coaches are fetishized to a ridiculous level and seem to be promoted by the media as the main event ahead of the actual talent. It’s natural that “player power” is going to be a thing when the star players are the most valuable asset of the industry.

I think part of the reason why it seems natural for the British to side with the manager is what they’re fed from pundits who, by and large, are either failed, bitter managers themselves or worked under Alex Ferguson who was an exceptipn rather than the rule. Gary Neville is a double whammy which is why he seems to spout so much rubbish on the subjects of “player power” and giving managers time despite being spot on about so many other things.

It’s also partly cultural in my opinion. British society is historically very hierarchical and about “knowing your place”. Therefore they want their players to just shut up and get on with it.

 

[Varun]

A manager vs players situation at any club, regardless of who the manager is only ends one way. Its not even a Mourinho thing, no club can afford to replace half the squad.

 

[Rash Decision]

Players going against the manager does not mean players acting bigger than the club. Why do people equate the manager with the club? It's particularly ironic when you recall that the manager in question has publicly discredited the club in order to protect his own reputation - essentially putting himself above the club.

 

[The United]

I feel the players definitely downed tools under Moyes. I dont think having a ego in the dressing room such as Rio helped matters,as much as I rate the guy.
Him and Giggs were school Fergie and they couldn't see past that.Again understandable.That's not to say Moyes didn't mess up as he clearly did but I dont think the experienced players helped matters.

I also dont think all of the players necessarily downed tools under LVG or Jose.Even in Jose's last match against Liverpool I thought the players effort was apparent. I just think they ,along with the fans,got depressed by the football and Jose constant bickering in the media.By all account he was a different person inside Carrington. But who wants to keep playing that game ? eventually that will wear you down.

I really want to know where you got those from.

It seemed like he was toxic on and off the pitch. Plus I have no idea what kind of game he played with being mean in the media by throwing everyone under the bus and nice behind it. Would be pointless and pretty dumb.

 

[Dancfc]

For anyone who thinks players just switch it on and off when it suits, listen to Shaka Hislop's explanation which includes an example of his own story with a similar situation. Should open your eyes to the mental aspect of football a bit.

 

[kouroux]

Player power exists and in our particular case the "downing tools" is just nonsense. I keep asking the question regarding the various come backs/late wins we've had under Jose this season and how those were possible if the players were downing tools. Speciallly in the match vs Newcastle were the defeat would have probably gotten Jose sacked.
I haven't seen a single answer so far

 

[Bojan11]

How is it player power?

Jose just simply didn’t know how to coach attacking football. His own players from the past said it he would just leave the forward players to their own devices and hope for some individual brilliance.

Then there are other details where he would tell the team after scoring to sit back as you are most vulnerable after scoring.

He didn’t know where to play Pogba. He always had his fullbacks really far back. It wasn’t player power. Jose’s tactics were outdated and crap.

The issue this season was Jose also forgot how to coach a defence too, so with no real attacking plan and a defence conceding for fun he wasn’t going to last long. We currently conceding under Ole but we look for better because we in control of every match.

 

[BrianMcClair'sBarnet]

I really want to know where you got those from.

It seemed like he was toxic on and off the pitch. Plus I have no idea what kind of game he played with being mean in the media by throwing everyone under the bus and nice behind it. Would be pointless and pretty dumb.

Largely from Luke Shaw.
He said something along the lines of Jose being far more supportive with him and the players behind the scenes.

 

[Pexbo]

Player power has always been a thing. The key is having a manager who is at the top of their game and more indispensable than the players.

There was a romantic notion that the club would back the manager over the players to give them the same control and authority that Ferguson had but it was always nonsense. Ferguson’s authority didn’t come from the backing of the board, it was earned by everything he did and how he carried himself.

 

[Raees]

At any level of sport, or in any profession - when a new manager comes in, they're afforded a base level of respect but in essence the man or woman in charge needs to earn their employee's respect and trust... that is what solidifies their position and ensures they and their charges enjoy a harmonious and successful relationship. The player's need to collectively believe that the person in charge of them is wiser than them and has their best interests at heart.

Below are some quotes from Fergie.. now tell me if Mourinho did any of this during his time here. He basically managed in such a way that the player's respect for him eroded to a huge extent and who can blame them. No manager should be allowed to be a dictator when their actions do not merit them being placed in a position of senior responsibility.

There is no room for criticism on the training field. For a player – and for any human being – there is nothing better than hearing 'well done'.

You can't always come in shouting and screaming. That doesn't work. No one likes to get criticised. But in the football dressing room, it's necessary that you point out your players' mistakes. I do it right after the game. I don't wait until Monday, I do it, and it's finished. I'm on to the next match. There is no point in criticising a player forever.

If they misbehave, we fine them, but we keep it indoors.

One of my players has been sent off several times. He will do something if he gets the chance – even in training. Can I take it out of him? No. Would I want to take it out of him? No. If you take the aggression out of him, he is not himself. So you have to accept that there is a certain flaw that is counterbalanced by all the great things he can do.

 

[Hope7]

I don’t personally think they downed tools. I think they were just unclear on what Moyes and Jose wanted from them. Be creative but stay in this rigid formation, be like Phil Jagielka, proshess. Our last three managers have been a combo of inept/incoherent/contradictory. Even worse with the last manager they were thrown out for the dogs when they failed to interpret the impenetrable instructions. It was easier for them to just sit back and put in 6/7 out of 10 performances each week. They couldnt even work their arse off for Jose as he wanted them to sit back to conserve energy and shape. It was a hiding to nothing.

I think also that Jose playing banter formations, and mctominay CB etc helped fan the flames ...any pro player would see through that nonsense. Coupled with his constant negativity and non attacking; player power is correct here.

Imagine jose got full backing. Pogba gone, martial gone, perisic and Willian in? Toby in admittedly. Matic fellaini mctominay midfield. Brrrr.

 

[Bobcat]

I've heard the accusations about players downing tools in an attempt to get rid of the manager.

It's not the first time I've heard them either. I recall the same accusations around Moyes departure.

I'm old school I still think nobody should be bigger than the club, but what I think, and what is the reality in 2018, may no longer be the same thing. Collectively, the players probably do have more 'power' than the manager.

Anyway, discuss... do you think this is what happened and how do you feel about it?

I think our view got massively warped by having Fergie as a manager for so long. He had been here for ages, had won everything there was to win and had complete authority so our position was a complete anomaly compared to most other clubs.

Moyes, despite being hopelessly under qualified, also had an nearly impossible job taking over the reins after the greatest manager ever, especially considering the squad he inherited, which was full of experienced winners and big personalities. LvG i cant say there was any signs of mutiny and after all he did bring on board players like Martial, Shaw and Herrera. His problem was not the players downing tools, it was that he had his head to far up his arse with his philosophy.

Jose, well thats a different story, but with the same events repeating themselves over three different clubs with three different squads its pretty clear what the common denominator is. I cant say i recall any discussion about "player power" in the 90's and 00's, but its not exactly like everyone who played back then were flawless model professionals either. Its not like being a semi-alcoholic and having 10 pints the eve before matchday is any better than making instagram posts