Playing for the shirt, not the manager

[Someone]

When has this ever been the case with footballers?

The players are being heavily criticized by ex united players like neville and keano among other pundits, for not giving their all regardless to how they felt towards mourinho. For as long as I've been watching football, performance levels have always dropped the moment the players stopped believing in their manager.

Personally speaking, through out my career I've worked for managers that believed in me and managers that didn't, and the difference for me was huge. When you trust your manager you come to work feeling good, you work harder and you tend to go the extra mile because you know it'll be noticed and you'll be appreciated for it. It's completely different when your manager doesn't think you're good enough and you're constantly trying to prove a point, you're always stressed, you make more mistakes, and there's no motive for you to do more than you should. I don't know why we assume that footballers are somehow different than us, if anything, they're usually less mature, and being rich and famous at this young age comes with a lot of challenges and distractions, so having a manager you trust that can guide you through all this is crucial. Mourinho was never that kind of manager.

It's easy to play for the shirt when you're managed by Fergie, but it's something else with Mourinho. I don't know why is this coming as a surprise to people that's been around the game for decades.

Do you guys actually think that it's normal to expect footballers to be at their best regardless to how good/bad their manager is?

 

[Bubz27]

As a fan, I'd play for the badge.

Not a lot of players are fans of the club's they play for.

 

[RedorDead21]

When has this ever been the case with footballers?

The players are being heavily criticized by ex united players like neville and keano among other pundits, for not giving their all regardless to how they felt towards mourinho. For as long as I've been watching football, performance levels have always dropped the moment the players stopped believing in their manager.

Personally speaking, through out my career I've worked for managers that believed in me and managers that didn't, and the difference for me was huge. When you trust your manager you come to work feeling good, you work harder and you tend to go the extra mile because you know it'll be noticed and you'll be appreciated for it. It's completely different when your manager doesn't think you're good enough and you're constantly trying to prove a point, you're always stressed, you make more mistakes, and there's no motive for you to do more than you should. I don't know why we assume that footballers are somehow different than us, if anything, they're usually less mature, and being rich and famous at this young age comes with a lot of challenges and distractions, so having a manager you trust that can guide you through all this is crucial. Mourinho was never that kind of manager.

It's easy to play for the shirt when you're managed by Fergie, but it's something else with Mourinho. I don't know why is this coming as a surprise to people that's been around the game for decades.

Do you guys actually think that it's normal to expect footballers to be at their best regardless to how good/bad their manager is?

Not easy when you get the hair dryer to play for the same guy...I think it came down to knowing you were at the club that was going places...wanting to stay there and knowing if you downed tools......you couldn't see him gone...you'd be sold!

 

[The Cat]

I'd play for the money and the fans wouldn't matter what club it is. If you don't give your best you are like a dole scrounger cheating yourself and all those around you.

I don't mean people looking for work or who have genuine health issues by the way. There is a bloke in my local right now who gets a walking stick out at funerals as he knows people will see it but he's quite happy to walk a mile to the pub without it.

 

[steakpie]

I think its easy to say for us as we are fans.

 

[berbasloth4]

players are coming to united these days for money they dont give a f@@k about fans. if they did they wouldnt be losing the ball then strolling after it to get it back.

 

[Bobski]

When a manager destroys his relationship with his players, as Mourinho has done, back to back to back, at Madrid, then Chelsea, now Utd, you can't ignore the debilitating effect of his toxicity.

It has not been until very recently than we have seen a team not giving effort, maybe individuals could be picked out before, but the greater problem is the constant sight of a team confused over what it is expected to do. Beyond every other argument over the Mourinho reign that is what I can not get beyond, how abysmally coached and prepared they looked throughout his time here. That goes beyond pure talent level, we have seen teams with far less than Utd show more coherence and structure than we ever have, or did under him.

 

[Red Dreams]

mercenaries.
that is the problem.

We would not have this discussion if we had players from UK and Ireland. Those of us who grew up watching the teams in those days had players who gave their all for the club.

 

[BluesJr]

Correct. The manager and his inspiration are everything. People fail to grasp this.

 

[Denis79]

All depends on the mentality I think. I used to work as a police officer now I work at a large security firm. I can honestly say I've given my best every time I put a uniform on. The job doesn't allow me to have bad days, be angry at my captain/boss or sulk because today I didn't get a fun assignment.

So I disagree when someone says it's understandable when players don't give a 100% because they don't like the manager. Although I agree when someone says that a certain manager can't bring the best out of his players and that it isn't the players fault if their talent isn't highlighted but a player not giving a feck because he sulks, not professional in my book.

 

[Red Rom]

I rarely ever post, but I fully agree with the OP. This is something that has really been bothering me as I see all of these supporters bashing our own players, especially Pogba.

People seem to think that because they are making all of this money or something, that they should then become less human and always just "play for the shirt". Now don't get me wrong, anybody that seems not to care about our club can go and leave. But all I've seen is a manager who creates a toxic environment with his players and makes them not want to play for him, not the club itself.

Take Martial for example, he's always been a fan favorite and when he first arrived, he scored many crucial goals for us. But then when Jose began to randomly and publicly criticize him he began to suddenly "not care" for a period in time. To me, that's on Jose not the player, Jose's job was to get the best out of his players and that certainly wasn't helping.

Take me, an average person, for example. If my boss ever started publically criticizing me and giving me less hours even if I was just as talented as everyone else if not more, suddenly I would look like I'm not caring too. There's no way I would want to work for a company or a manager that seems to have an agenda against me no matter how much I would be adored by others there.

So for me, the same goes for United. People can't expect Jose to treat people like trash and then there be no consequences from that. I don't hate Jose either, I think he's a fantastic manager. But he's terrible at man management and always has been. Chelsea was no different, and their fans were even hating Hazard by the end of Jose's reign.

Fast forward to the present and he's back as their best player with their fans loving him once more, and so to me that just shows that Jose is manipulative, toxic, and while I'm thankful for what he brought is, it was time for him to go. But now that he's gone I really hope our fans can also start fresh and get behind every single one of our players, instead of listening to some of these pundits including ex players, and getting on their backs at every mistake. We already have enough negativity it's time to start fresh with some positivity imo.

 

[BluesJr]

All depends on the mentality I think. I used to work as a police officer now I work at a large security firm. I can honestly say I've given my best every time I put a uniform on. The job doesn't allow me to have bad days, be angry at my captain/boss or sulk because today I didn't get a fun assignment.

So I disagree when someone says it's understandable when players don't give a 100% because they don't like the manager. Although I agree when someone says that a certain manager can't bring the best out of his players and that it isn't the players fault if their talent isn't highlighted but a player not giving a feck because he sulks, not professional in my book.

When morale is low it’s hard to give your best, as a team when there is no consistency or confidence from the management how are you supposed to find form as a unit? The players have been playing safe and with fear for too long.

 

[Cassidy]

mercenaries.
that is the problem.

We would not have this discussion if we had players from UK and Ireland. Those of us who grew up watching the teams in those days had players who gave their all for the club.

Lola we dont have any pkayers from the UK

 

[sullydnl]

If all players were capable of being 100% commited regardless of what their manager does then management would be an awful lot easier than it is. It's completely unrealistic to expect a professional footballer's attitude and performances to be unaffected by poor interpersonal relationships and morale.

 

[Red Dreams]

Lola we dont have any pkayers from the UK

what?

 

[In Rainbows]

mercenaries.
that is the problem.

We would not have this discussion if we had players from UK and Ireland. Those of us who grew up watching the teams in those days had players who gave their all for the club.

If mercenaries are the problem how do City do what they do?

 

[BluesJr]

If mercenaries are the problem how do City do what they do?

Doesn’t suit the agenda.

 

[Denis79]

When morale is low it’s hard to give your best, as a team when there is no consistency or confidence from the management how are you supposed to find form as a unit? The players have been playing safe and with fear for too long.

I agree it's hard to give your best but not your 100% (Hope you understand what I mean). Totally understand they fall out of form, make more mistakes and play badly because of all the things you mentioned above, I agree. But not giving 100% is unprofessional plain and simple even if it's 100% of low quality because of bad form.

I can see alot of similarities between a team of footballers and let's say the police force. If only a few don't give a feck it puts the rest of the team in a weaker position. They played with fear you say, I know how it is to work with fear, for me it was fear for my life at times and I needed my team to be focused and give 100% or I wouldn't have done my job properly.

The thing I disagree with is not that their form is poor because of bad management, it is no doubt. I disagree with a person being considered professional at his job but he doesn't give all he has, even if it's poor at the time. We have professionals in our team, who gave everything even when our football was at it's worst and we have those who didn't, who in my view are unprofessional.

 

[K2K]

If mercenaries are the problem how do City do what they do?

Stop speaking sense.

 

[Smores]

Pros must love it when ordinary fans discount all their decades of expertise because it doesn't match their own simple lives

Sound like fecking brexiteers talking about the economy in terms of household budgets

 

[Peyroteo]

Players play because of the money and because they want to do well, at this level pretty much all of them are great professionals that obviously do their best for the team.

Different managers getting different things out of a player is usually a matter of confidence or tactical changes, not really a matter of motivation.

This is generally speaking of course, there are also plenty of examples of players screwing over a manager. Don't think it's correct to assume that was the case with Mourinho at United though.

 

[simpandenstore]

Its easy to say for us fans that the player should play for the badge even if their manager is toxic and so on, but have you ever been in a player shoes in those circumstances? Its easy for keane and neville to say so because they played under one manager, SAF, who everyone loved and respected, they havent been in this situation.
Its a different thing if one or two players have hard times, but if the whole team plays bad its obvious something is wrong. Without a proper gameplan and tactics it doesent matter if you give it your best.
Trust, respect and humbleness between coach and players goes a long way for a team.

 

[JeffBoomTetris]

mercenaries.
that is the problem.

We would not have this discussion if we had players from UK and Ireland. Those of us who grew up watching the teams in those days had players who gave their all for the club.

And players outside the UK & Ireland don't play for the club?

 

[FutbolFan]

mercenaries.
that is the problem.

We would not have this discussion if we had players from UK and Ireland. Those of us who grew up watching the teams in those days had players who gave their all for the club.

Wow really?? I dont think thats fair or accurate

 

[red thru&thru]

You play football as a youngster because you enjoyed/loved the game. Soon as you have to earn money, it becomes a business, whether that’s from semi-pro or professional level.

When you have mortgages and mouths to feed and provide a good life for your family, it becomes less and less about the shirt and more about your present and future away from football. Players only have a limited time in the game, they have to make the most of it. So it does become like any other business.

If that weren’t true, why didn’t the likes of Neville play for a standard national living wage? Yes these guys might love the club, however, love isn’t going to provide food and a roof over your head for the restof yours and your families lives. I’d wish people just stop being so naive.

The funny thing is, even one of United’s Tweets said something like, “last day of work before Christmas”, showing the players coming out to the training ground!

 

[kouroux]

mercenaries.
that is the problem.

We would not have this discussion if we had players from UK and Ireland. Those of us who grew up watching the teams in those days had players who gave their all for the club.

That's not a problem, footballers are by definition mercenaries. They don't play for free. It's a matter of level of professionalism

 

[FujiVice]

If that weren’t true, why didn’t the likes of Neville play for a standard national living wage? Yes these guys might love the club, however, love isn’t going to provide food and a roof over your head for the restof yours and your families lives. I’d wish people just stop being so naive.

You are being way to far on the opposite end of it there, though. Sure the Neville, Giggs and Keane got what they felt was deserved, but it was never solely about money. If it was, they'd have went elsewhere without a second thought. Giggs and Beckham especially could have earned ridiculous money in Italy and Spain during a time when we had that mad salary cap implimented by Martin Edwards. For what Beckham brought in commercially to the club, he should have been the highest paid player in the world.

That's the big thing about United in the 90s. Our players werent getting what the likes of Baggio, Romario, Hagi etc. were getting. But they all stayed. Imagine that now? It would never happen. We've got Lingard and Smalling on superstar wages. There was a time when we couldnt by Gabriel Batistuta because he wanted more than Andy Cole was on. Now we're giving mad contracts to players like Chris Smalling!

 

[Champ]

As a footballer who has played for a lot of clubs and under a lot of managers, and also has worked the 9-5 under several managers too, I can say that a manager has the greatest effect on how much effort you give.
The fact that you are playing for United won't mean a bean if the manager is speaking crap.
I played for a team who were going places, funded well and were paying some players very good money but the manager was an idiot, needless to say everyone was happy to pick up the money and let the manager take the flak, wrong as it may be.
Had the manager changed some of his mentality then I'm sure the players would have backed him more and tried even harder.
Sometimes it's something you do without even realising, not trying but on the flip side the new manager came in and changed the mentality, all of a sudden promotion was won.

 

[AkaAkuma]

Maybe they played for the shirt by not performing for the Manager.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

If you go out and play for the badge - there is every chance that this goes against the managers tactics & gameplan.

Then its not the badge that will keep you safe & settled as the manager will chuck you out.

 

[Raees]

Comparing playing football to being a police officer is laughable as it would be comparing them to doctors or nurses. If you don’t do your job as a police officer or emergency services - someone’s life could be at risk.

Even if you hate your manager, people who enter those roles have a specific mindset to go into a job which will be tough, you’ll be treated like shit but it is part and parcel of the job and if you can’t handle it - then you’re not cut out for those roles. It’s a very hard line of work to go in.

Football is meant to be fun, it is meant to be an enjoyable profession, and it is meant to be a form of expression albeit you have to put in the hard yards fitness wise and be able to handle the physical nature of elite sport and a combat sport. Nevertheless if you’re feeling like it’s a chore, the coaching is non existent and you’re not getting results - players will rebel. Football has a short shelf life in terms of a career and no top player is going to risk wasting their short career in a shit environment where they are not going to enjoy their work.

Secondly the sheer range of clubs is very different to being able to move to a different police station or hospital where the environment is more likely to similar wherever you go as the nature of the role demands a disciplined environment and you’ll have difficult patients and criminals to deal with wherever.

Final point - much easier to motivate yourself playing under a Fergie, than it is in an unsuccessful, inhospitable and toxic environment. Keane couldn't handle it under McCarthy but he was good as gold under Fergie, but even then he exploded near the end.

 

[red thru&thru]

You are being way to far on the opposite end of it there, though. Sure the Neville, Giggs and Keane got what they felt was deserved, but it was never solely about money. If it was, they'd have went elsewhere without a second thought. Giggs and Beckham especially could have earned ridiculous money in Italy and Spain during a time when we had that mad salary cap implimented by Martin Edwards. For what Beckham brought in commercially to the club, he should have been the highest paid player in the world.

That's the big thing about United in the 90s. Our players werent getting what the likes of Baggio, Romario, Hagi etc. were getting. But they all stayed. Imagine that now? It would never happen. We've got Lingard and Smalling on superstar wages. There was a time when we couldnt by Gabriel Batistuta because he wanted more than Andy Cole was on. Now we're giving mad contracts to players like Chris Smalling!

Where are you getting the fact our players would move elsewhere for more money? Our players can earn more money in China, none of them gone. In fact, you had players from Chelsea’s league winning teams moving to China. You had Paulinho move from Barca, who won the league there, move to China. Other than AdM, who didn’t want to come in the first place, that I can think of who really wanted to leave in the past 5 years.

 

[championo]

Jose man management style went out of style long time ago. He probably used to scare poor players to play their hearts out. Now he is dealing with rich young kids who requires a softer touch and he never developed that side of him. He probably believes antagonizing the players with fear and public shaming was going to want them to play harder. It has backfired so far in three of his most recent stops.

 

[Scholsey2004]

Everyone wants to play for the shirt, nobody gives a feck about the shorts anymore. Just the way footballs going I guess.

 

[freeurmind]

How about the play because that's what they get paid to do?

 

[Mint]

If mercenaries are the problem how do City do what they do?

It's diiferent when you have the chance to win trophies. Mercenairies who join teams bottom of the table do not care if they are relegated.

 

[FujiVice]

Where are you getting the fact our players would move elsewhere for more money?

I didnt. I was responding to this ridiculous musing about why players from the 90s didnt work for a standard living wage or something. They played for far less wages for the talent they had. Can you say the same about this lot? Is there anyone outside of David De Gea that is underpaid?

 

[ravi2]

If mercenaries are the problem how do City do what they do?

City seems to always be trying to make the team and the infrastructure around the team better. Their management - from dof to manager seem to share a common vision and execution.

They buy the best players available and price is not an issue for them.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[L1nk]

I remember reading something about how it's not so simple as 'playing for the badge' and how, under Mourinho, where the players were apparently suffering, it's basically saying I don't care if he makes you suffer you must carry on playing for the badge or the fans and isn't right, really, is it. Don't understand how people can't understand that these guys are human beings, despite how much they might be getting paid, if my manager is treating me like shit and making the atmosphere toxic at a place I worked, I certainly wouldn't be under the guise of 'I don't care i MUST continue to work here' and I certainly wouldn't do it for the customers.

 

[Eyepopper]

The first thing I'd do if I was Ole would be to get Fergie in to give the whole squad a motivational speech about what it is to be a Man Utd player, and what's demanded.

If that's not enough to get them playing for the shirt I don't know what would be.