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- Jan 5, 2013
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If there is anything to blame, it's the Palace game. We could have won with Casemiro and a proper midweek rest.
Pogue, your problem is that you increasingly believe your present equilibrium and viewpoint is the only possible rational one. There’s plenty of people who mindlessly kneejerk or throw the baby with the bathwater in response to every loss, but there’s also plenty who can engage honestly and critically about getting outplayed, or have a more nuanced appraisal of our season so far.What you say there has literally nothing to do with the post you quoted Which is an entirely reasonable post that nobody rational could possibly disagree with. Fecking hell. Take a break. Haven’t seen you in weeks but two bad games and you’re fecking everywhere.
Re-read his post ffs.Pogue, your problem is that you increasingly believe your present equilibrium and viewpoint is the only possible rational one. There’s plenty of people who mindlessly kneejerk or throw the baby with the bathwater in response to every loss, but there’s also plenty who can engage honestly and critically about getting outplayed, or have a more nuanced appraisal of our season so far.
I was presenting an alternate view that, in contrast to this poster, I did feel that this was a pretty comprehensive loss comparable to many we suffered under Ole, Rangnick and ETH earlier this season.
If you want to engage with me, do so. If not, stop just giving me ad hominem responses in lieu of anything substantive. Stick me on your ignore list if that would improve your time here. Sorry, I don’t post regular updates from Old Trafford during our home matches.
You do you. It’s pointless being polite with you.Re-read his post ffs.
He made no claims whatsoever about this being a close game, or that it wasn’t a comprehensive loss (although, for the record, it wasn’t)
You’re just looking for any excuse at all to post lengthy very similar posts (away record, xG, blah blah) about how we’re doing much worse this season than most people think.
And spare me the “I’m at Old Trafford so can’t post after home wins” crap. It’s almost midnight and here you are.
I hope we see more of this next season.The ultimate aim is to be able to take the game to the opposition or at least not lose the midfield against anyone. That's the standard set by the elite team in the past few years except Real Madrid and trying to copy Real is just futile.
That's what we're missing, it's really pointless to overanalyze what could have been avoided or done in a specific game. Once we can add that to our game against this caliber of teams, we will organically win more than lose.
1. A 6' 6" striker who isn't great in the airBitterly disappointed with the result.
I feel like EtH got some of his tactics and decision making wrong which handed Arsenal the game.
1. We know Arsenal are fantastic at pressing this season. There’s a time and a place to play out from the back. When we’re 1-0 up, away at the league leaders with players who aren’t the best in the ball (DdG, AWB) and with a 6 foot 6 target man up top - we can occasionally go long and win the second ball. The first and third goal we conceded came from this insistence to play out. I admire and respect EtH wanting to play football a certain way, but if we just clear our lines we don’t concede those two goals.
2. It was clear that our midfield was giving up so much time and space for Arsenal to come through. When Eriksen was clearly flagging (as he was for Saka’s goal), we should have either done a straight swap with Malacia, tuck in Shaw as the 3rd CB and go to 5 at the back with Bruno dropping in next to Scotty, or we should have brought on Fred (but I still have PTSD with the McFred midfield).
3. A third option would be to take off Wout for Garnacho, play Rashford down the middle. It worked vs City and at least we can play on the counter. You could even do the Fred sun with Bruno wide right and Eriksen as a 10. The option ETH chose however meant that we were in this halfway house of lacking an out ball (other than Rashers) with Antony off, and keeping Eriksen on when he was flagging.
4. Shaw for some reason didn’t want to make a challenge of Saka. Not sure why but he kept on backing off. I wonder if the move from CB to LB has affected his decision making. Would Malacia have been a better option at LB? He’s definitely a bit more robust, although I think he had a poor game last time he faced off against Saka. In any case, we needed Shaw to play more on the front foot here today.
5. Martinez and Varane are definitely a worthy partnership, but they made Nketiah look like prime Ruud van Nistelrooy today. The winner had a heathy slice of luck on how it got to him, but I’d expect defenders of their calibre to keep him quiet throughout.
6. With 87 mins on the clock and drawing 2-2 away to the league leaders, EtH should have taken the draw. 4 points off Arsenal in a season where they’re impressive isn’t to be sniffed at. He should have shored up the midfield when we were being overrun and put Garnacho on to stretch the game. Keeping things as they were hoping to nick a win was naive.
7. We’ve definitely been affected by the multitude of games lately. Fatigue and a small squad has shown our limitations. Conceding late to Palace and Arsenal (and losing 4 points because of it) is a kick in the teeth, but EtH is doing an admirable job in the circumstance.
8. We need a fit and firing Sancho back.
This made a huge difference, and not having Dalot, who can do the same thing, had a big impact on our midfield running out of gas. Also, Antony was crap and we never had anyone there to really worry Zinchenko, which was one of the mistakes ETH made today. With Garnacho or even Pellistri could have at least kept him honest a little more.Fantastic game overall for the neutrals. United, although second best showed glimpses of what they are building towards.
I just want to mention that Zinchenko was an absolute monster today. A cheat code - essentially a modern CM playing LB.
I feel this is what we wanted to do with Martinez initially, as he has the ability to ping delightful balls, and has the tenacity and stamina to replicate Zinchenko. Heck, even Pep is doing the same and allowing Lewis a free role in the RB position.
This touch map is insane. I suspect that’s why many of you felt like we were playing with an extra man. It’s true to an extent during the intense start of the game (before we faded) and towards the end of the second half.
Great game overall, can’t beat a classic fixture.
I am very confident we will mainly because that's what EtH wants to do. The last manager who we had who thought that was important was LvG. Obviously just identifying it as a cornerstone of your team is not enough as was the case with LvG but with EtH as you say, we are already seeing signs and he has the age and enthusiasm of a young coach.I hope we see more of this next season.
We did show signs of it vs Chelsea before the WC.
That's the biggest thing missing and I hope further time/more signings allows us to do that consistently.
I'm sure he's planning to do so, but I do wonder what he thinks of De Gea if he's trying to implement a positional game. He's just not good enough as a keeper for that type of style. His distribution is lacking and he doesn't come off his line enough.I am very confident we will mainly because that's what EtH wants to do. The last manager who we had who thought that was important was LvG. Obviously just identifying it as a cornerstone of your team is not enough as was the case with LvG but with EtH as you say, we are already seeing signs and he has the age and enthusiasm of a young coach.
I remember Arteta's Arsenal criticized for parking the bus against the big teams a couple years back. I am not even sure if they were parking the bus or just outplayed. He built the team slowly because there is nothing harder in football coaching than building a team that can take the game to the opponent. We don't even park the bus to that extent and our possession stats are much better against teams who aren't City and Arsenal. I remember we could barely control a game under the previous regimes.
I was not a fan of De Gea even when he was our best player of the season. Nothing against him as I think he seems like a positive presence in the dressing room and a humble guy but yeah I can't think of an elite team that plays with a passive keeper. He is the equivalent of a goal scorer who isn't dynamic enough. Yes he will get you goals but the overall team performance might suffer.I'm sure he's planning to do so, but I do wonder what he thinks of De Gea if he's trying to implement a positional game. He's just not good enough as a keeper for that type of style. His distribution is lacking and he doesn't come off his line enough.
And there's definitely been good signs of progress. I think we're arguably ahead of schedule. We can still get better at creating chances with waves and waves of attack vs the cannon fodder in the league and monopolizing the ball even more(like the 2nd half vs Palace - though we should have had a pen).
I don't think we need that many signings, but I think replacing a GK is up there.
Generally agree with you on a lot of your points but cannot agree Eriksen was bad. We where playing a 4321 and McT was absolutely atrocious yesterday. Eriksen basically was a single pivot and you saw they were focused on stopping his passing. Then he got tired and was a passenger from 70’ onward. People are giving Bruno a pass here but he was almost invisible yesterday. Maybe ETH told him to stay up near the forwards but I thought he needed to come back and involve himself more to help the DMs. He contributed very little yesterday. Odegard won that battle of the 10s.People need to realize that Arsenal aren't lucky, they are legitimately the best team in the league this season.
However, I don't think they are much better than us.
The problem we faced all game was, despite how good our defenders were on the ball ( our defenders are better both on and off the ball than theirs), when the ball was played into midfield, Odegaard, Xhaka and Partey were always able to control it. They could hold and turn, in a similar way to our defenders. On the other hand, neither Eriksen or Mctominay had the bravery or balance to do this, hence our defenders tried to play it up to Weighorst ( who had the challenge of knowing two defenders were on him). People can insult Antony, but he was our best outlet. He did a really good job of holding onto the ball and bringing others in. Bruno was decent, as was Rashford, as was Weighorst, as were the defenders including AWB. However, when facing a team that presses like Arsenal, if you don't have midfielders that can provide numbers on the ball for you, the team will struggle to keep possession. In addition, we were very tame at winning the ball in midfield. Weighorst, Antony and Bruno did a good job at trying to win it, but once they got bypassed, it was way to easy for Arsenal to get to our final third.
Games like this are useful. I don't think any other team in the league beats us at the moment. So getting a team that can fully expose potential weaknesses highlights areas of focus for the future.
We obviously need a striker. We need to decide what happens on the right flank ( we have the players, just need to know who takes it). We also need a midfielder with the skill to play for us, but also the positioning and energy to play well in the best of games. Eriksen should be more in the rotation. We can win cups with the current team and will get top 4. However, I really think with the team we have with these additions, we can compete for everything.
One team has been coached for 3+ season with a manager allowed autonomy to change things, the other is Manchester United.Those stats shown on match of the day were pretty one dimensional! XG and touches in the opposition box was sky high in Arsenal's favour.
Our right hand side is basically the aids virus regardless of who plays there. So it doesn’t surprise me he was given so much room.Fantastic game overall for the neutrals. United, although second best showed glimpses of what they are building towards.
I just want to mention that Zinchenko was an absolute monster today. A cheat code - essentially a modern CM playing LB.
I feel this is what we wanted to do with Martinez initially, as he has the ability to ping delightful balls, and has the tenacity and stamina to replicate Zinchenko. Heck, even Pep is doing the same and allowing Lewis a free role in the RB position.
This touch map is insane. I suspect that’s why many of you felt like we were playing with an extra man. It’s true to an extent during the intense start of the game (before we faded) and towards the end of the second half.
Great game overall, can’t beat a classic fixture.
Its bollocks mate. (I'm not attacking you just giving you my POV) It wasnt Antonys absence he was quite absent hymself. It was the fact that ETH went with Fred (while having both McTominay and Eriksen on the pitch) instead of young Garancho that seald our faith. There was no wide players except Rashford who could carry the ball in the face of relentless Arsenal pressure. We might have lost with Garancho offcourse but at least we would have a counter or two with him.He wasn't amazing or anything but is it just a coincidence that we lost all control once Antony came off? I feel like he gives us more balance and retains the ball well/is an outlet. I feel like Zinchenko had so much space when Antony came off and I thought it was similar vs Palace.
An interesting post, most of which I do agree with.Bitterly disappointed with the result.
I feel like EtH got some of his tactics and decision making wrong which handed Arsenal the game.
1. We know Arsenal are fantastic at pressing this season. There’s a time and a place to play out from the back. When we’re 1-0 up, away at the league leaders with players who aren’t the best in the ball (DdG, AWB) and with a 6 foot 6 target man up top - we can occasionally go long and win the second ball. The first and third goal we conceded came from this insistence to play out. I admire and respect EtH wanting to play football a certain way, but if we just clear our lines we don’t concede those two goals.
2. It was clear that our midfield was giving up so much time and space for Arsenal to come through. When Eriksen was clearly flagging (as he was for Saka’s goal), we should have either done a straight swap with Malacia, tuck in Shaw as the 3rd CB and go to 5 at the back with Bruno dropping in next to Scotty, or we should have brought on Fred (but I still have PTSD with the McFred midfield).
3. A third option would be to take off Wout for Garnacho, play Rashford down the middle. It worked vs City and at least we can play on the counter. You could even do the Fred sun with Bruno wide right and Eriksen as a 10. The option ETH chose however meant that we were in this halfway house of lacking an out ball (other than Rashers) with Antony off, and keeping Eriksen on when he was flagging.
4. Shaw for some reason didn’t want to make a challenge of Saka. Not sure why but he kept on backing off. I wonder if the move from CB to LB has affected his decision making. Would Malacia have been a better option at LB? He’s definitely a bit more robust, although I think he had a poor game last time he faced off against Saka. In any case, we needed Shaw to play more on the front foot here today.
5. Martinez and Varane are definitely a worthy partnership, but they made Nketiah look like prime Ruud van Nistelrooy today. The winner had a heathy slice of luck on how it got to him, but I’d expect defenders of their calibre to keep him quiet throughout.
6. With 87 mins on the clock and drawing 2-2 away to the league leaders, EtH should have taken the draw. 4 points off Arsenal in a season where they’re impressive isn’t to be sniffed at. He should have shored up the midfield when we were being overrun and put Garnacho on to stretch the game. Keeping things as they were hoping to nick a win was naive.
7. We’ve definitely been affected by the multitude of games lately. Fatigue and a small squad has shown our limitations. Conceding late to Palace and Arsenal (and losing 4 points because of it) is a kick in the teeth, but EtH is doing an admirable job in the circumstance.
8. We need a fit and firing Sancho back.
Bruno is a very good player.McTominay, Wan-Bissaka and Bruno had a very bad game. I´m suprised why Bruno continue to get the chance every game even when he missplace ball after ball. None of them should be playing.
1. I don't think I'd attribute those two goals to our playing out from the back. Rather I'd point to our inability to interfere effectively with their control when in possession around our box. Hoofing it wouldn't have removed that problem, though it might have avoided some dangerous turnovers.Bitterly disappointed with the result.
I feel like EtH got some of his tactics and decision making wrong which handed Arsenal the game.
1. We know Arsenal are fantastic at pressing this season. There’s a time and a place to play out from the back. When we’re 1-0 up, away at the league leaders with players who aren’t the best in the ball (DdG, AWB) and with a 6 foot 6 target man up top - we can occasionally go long and win the second ball. The first and third goal we conceded came from this insistence to play out. I admire and respect EtH wanting to play football a certain way, but if we just clear our lines we don’t concede those two goals.
2. It was clear that our midfield was giving up so much time and space for Arsenal to come through. When Eriksen was clearly flagging (as he was for Saka’s goal), we should have either done a straight swap with Malacia, tuck in Shaw as the 3rd CB and go to 5 at the back with Bruno dropping in next to Scotty, or we should have brought on Fred (but I still have PTSD with the McFred midfield).
3. A third option would be to take off Wout for Garnacho, play Rashford down the middle. It worked vs City and at least we can play on the counter. You could even do the Fred sun with Bruno wide right and Eriksen as a 10. The option ETH chose however meant that we were in this halfway house of lacking an out ball (other than Rashers) with Antony off, and keeping Eriksen on when he was flagging.
4. Shaw for some reason didn’t want to make a challenge of Saka. Not sure why but he kept on backing off. I wonder if the move from CB to LB has affected his decision making. Would Malacia have been a better option at LB? He’s definitely a bit more robust, although I think he had a poor game last time he faced off against Saka. In any case, we needed Shaw to play more on the front foot here today.
5. Martinez and Varane are definitely a worthy partnership, but they made Nketiah look like prime Ruud van Nistelrooy today. The winner had a heathy slice of luck on how it got to him, but I’d expect defenders of their calibre to keep him quiet throughout.
6. With 87 mins on the clock and drawing 2-2 away to the league leaders, EtH should have taken the draw. 4 points off Arsenal in a season where they’re impressive isn’t to be sniffed at. He should have shored up the midfield when we were being overrun and put Garnacho on to stretch the game. Keeping things as they were hoping to nick a win was naive.
7. We’ve definitely been affected by the multitude of games lately. Fatigue and a small squad has shown our limitations. Conceding late to Palace and Arsenal (and losing 4 points because of it) is a kick in the teeth, but EtH is doing an admirable job in the circumstance.
8. We need a fit and firing Sancho back.
Yeah he was absolutely outstanding, I felt him and Saka really elevated the Arsenal attack to another levelFantastic game overall for the neutrals. United, although second best showed glimpses of what they are building towards.
I just want to mention that Zinchenko was an absolute monster today. A cheat code - essentially a modern CM playing LB.
I feel this is what we wanted to do with Martinez initially, as he has the ability to ping delightful balls, and has the tenacity and stamina to replicate Zinchenko. Heck, even Pep is doing the same and allowing Lewis a free role in the RB position.
This touch map is insane. I suspect that’s why many of you felt like we were playing with an extra man. It’s true to an extent during the intense start of the game (before we faded) and towards the end of the second half.
Great game overall, can’t beat a classic fixture.
Shaw was struggling against Saka on the left, this is why he brought Fred on. I also don't think bringing Garnacho on earlier would've made much difference. We couldn't get out of our box, couldn't get hold of the ball, even when we did we just hoofed it back to Arsenal.Its bollocks mate. (I'm not attacking you just giving you my POV) It wasnt Antonys absence he was quite absent hymself. It was the fact that ETH went with Fred (while having both McTominay and Eriksen on the pitch) instead of young Garancho that seald our faith. There was no wide players except Rashford who could carry the ball in the face of relentless Arsenal pressure. We might have lost with Garancho offcourse but at least we would have a counter or two with him.
Anthony Taylor