PL L FA Premier League

Arsenal 3:2 Manchester United

Post-match discussion


Sun, 22 January 2023

Orange Tree

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
2,072
If there is anything to blame, it's the Palace game. We could have won with Casemiro and a proper midweek rest.
 

TMDaines

Fun sponge.
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
13,971
What you say there has literally nothing to do with the post you quoted Which is an entirely reasonable post that nobody rational could possibly disagree with. Fecking hell. Take a break. Haven’t seen you in weeks but two bad games and you’re fecking everywhere.
Pogue, your problem is that you increasingly believe your present equilibrium and viewpoint is the only possible rational one. There’s plenty of people who mindlessly kneejerk or throw the baby with the bathwater in response to every loss, but there’s also plenty who can engage honestly and critically about getting outplayed, or have a more nuanced appraisal of our season so far.

I was presenting an alternate view that, in contrast to this poster, I did feel that this was a pretty comprehensive loss comparable to many we suffered under Ole, Rangnick and ETH earlier this season.

If you want to engage with me, do so. If not, stop just giving me ad hominem responses in lieu of anything substantive. Stick me on your ignore list if that would improve your time here. Sorry, I don’t post regular updates from Old Trafford during our home matches.
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
133,797
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Pogue, your problem is that you increasingly believe your present equilibrium and viewpoint is the only possible rational one. There’s plenty of people who mindlessly kneejerk or throw the baby with the bathwater in response to every loss, but there’s also plenty who can engage honestly and critically about getting outplayed, or have a more nuanced appraisal of our season so far.

I was presenting an alternate view that, in contrast to this poster, I did feel that this was a pretty comprehensive loss comparable to many we suffered under Ole, Rangnick and ETH earlier this season.

If you want to engage with me, do so. If not, stop just giving me ad hominem responses in lieu of anything substantive. Stick me on your ignore list if that would improve your time here. Sorry, I don’t post regular updates from Old Trafford during our home matches.
Re-read his post ffs.

He made no claims whatsoever about this being a close game, or that it wasn’t a comprehensive loss (although, for the record, it wasn’t)

You’re just looking for any excuse at all to post lengthy very similar posts (away record, xG, blah blah) about how we’re doing much worse this season than most people think.

And spare me the “I’m at Old Trafford so can’t post after home wins” crap. It’s almost midnight and here you are.
 

Gerald G

Full Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
7,546
Location
Wardrobe.
He wasn't amazing or anything but is it just a coincidence that we lost all control once Antony came off? I feel like he gives us more balance and retains the ball well/is an outlet. I feel like Zinchenko had so much space when Antony came off and I thought it was similar vs Palace.
 

tinfish

Full Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Messages
676
Location
Shanghai
Supports
Arsenal
Fantastic game overall for the neutrals. United, although second best showed glimpses of what they are building towards.

I just want to mention that Zinchenko was an absolute monster today. A cheat code - essentially a modern CM playing LB.

I feel this is what we wanted to do with Martinez initially, as he has the ability to ping delightful balls, and has the tenacity and stamina to replicate Zinchenko. Heck, even Pep is doing the same and allowing Lewis a free role in the RB position.


This touch map is insane. I suspect that’s why many of you felt like we were playing with an extra man. It’s true to an extent during the intense start of the game (before we faded) and towards the end of the second half.

Great game overall, can’t beat a classic fixture.
 

TMDaines

Fun sponge.
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
13,971
Re-read his post ffs.

He made no claims whatsoever about this being a close game, or that it wasn’t a comprehensive loss (although, for the record, it wasn’t)

You’re just looking for any excuse at all to post lengthy very similar posts (away record, xG, blah blah) about how we’re doing much worse this season than most people think.

And spare me the “I’m at Old Trafford so can’t post after home wins” crap. It’s almost midnight and here you are.
You do you. It’s pointless being polite with you.
 

RedDevil@84

Full Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2014
Messages
21,644
Location
USA
AWB showed way too much respect and fear for the Arsenal players. Should have been much more physical right from the word go.
Same goes for others.
 

Theonas

Full Member
Scout
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
4,767
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
The ultimate aim is to be able to take the game to the opposition or at least not lose the midfield against anyone. That's the standard set by the elite team in the past few years except Real Madrid and trying to copy Real is just futile.

That's what we're missing, it's really pointless to overanalyze what could have been avoided or done in a specific game. Once we can add that to our game against this caliber of teams, we will organically win more than lose.
 

The Corinthian

I will not take Mad Winger's name in vain
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
11,757
Bitterly disappointed with the result.

I feel like EtH got some of his tactics and decision making wrong which handed Arsenal the game.

1. We know Arsenal are fantastic at pressing this season. There’s a time and a place to play out from the back. When we’re 1-0 up, away at the league leaders with players who aren’t the best in the ball (DdG, AWB) and with a 6 foot 6 target man up top - we can occasionally go long and win the second ball. The first and third goal we conceded came from this insistence to play out. I admire and respect EtH wanting to play football a certain way, but if we just clear our lines we don’t concede those two goals.

2. It was clear that our midfield was giving up so much time and space for Arsenal to come through. When Eriksen was clearly flagging (as he was for Saka’s goal), we should have either done a straight swap with Malacia, tuck in Shaw as the 3rd CB and go to 5 at the back with Bruno dropping in next to Scotty, or we should have brought on Fred (but I still have PTSD with the McFred midfield).

3. A third option would be to take off Wout for Garnacho, play Rashford down the middle. It worked vs City and at least we can play on the counter. You could even do the Fred sun with Bruno wide right and Eriksen as a 10. The option ETH chose however meant that we were in this halfway house of lacking an out ball (other than Rashers) with Antony off, and keeping Eriksen on when he was flagging.

4. Shaw for some reason didn’t want to make a challenge of Saka. Not sure why but he kept on backing off. I wonder if the move from CB to LB has affected his decision making. Would Malacia have been a better option at LB? He’s definitely a bit more robust, although I think he had a poor game last time he faced off against Saka. In any case, we needed Shaw to play more on the front foot here today.

5. Martinez and Varane are definitely a worthy partnership, but they made Nketiah look like prime Ruud van Nistelrooy today. The winner had a heathy slice of luck on how it got to him, but I’d expect defenders of their calibre to keep him quiet throughout.

6. With 87 mins on the clock and drawing 2-2 away to the league leaders, EtH should have taken the draw. 4 points off Arsenal in a season where they’re impressive isn’t to be sniffed at. He should have shored up the midfield when we were being overrun and put Garnacho on to stretch the game. Keeping things as they were hoping to nick a win was naive.

7. We’ve definitely been affected by the multitude of games lately. Fatigue and a small squad has shown our limitations. Conceding late to Palace and Arsenal (and losing 4 points because of it) is a kick in the teeth, but EtH is doing an admirable job in the circumstance.

8. We need a fit and firing Sancho back.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Messages
17,091
The ultimate aim is to be able to take the game to the opposition or at least not lose the midfield against anyone. That's the standard set by the elite team in the past few years except Real Madrid and trying to copy Real is just futile.

That's what we're missing, it's really pointless to overanalyze what could have been avoided or done in a specific game. Once we can add that to our game against this caliber of teams, we will organically win more than lose.
I hope we see more of this next season.

We did show signs of it vs Chelsea before the WC.

That's the biggest thing missing and I hope further time/more signings allows us to do that consistently.
 

Red in STL

Turnover not takeover
Joined
Dec 1, 2022
Messages
9,695
Location
In Bed
Supports
The only team that matters
Bitterly disappointed with the result.

I feel like EtH got some of his tactics and decision making wrong which handed Arsenal the game.

1. We know Arsenal are fantastic at pressing this season. There’s a time and a place to play out from the back. When we’re 1-0 up, away at the league leaders with players who aren’t the best in the ball (DdG, AWB) and with a 6 foot 6 target man up top - we can occasionally go long and win the second ball. The first and third goal we conceded came from this insistence to play out. I admire and respect EtH wanting to play football a certain way, but if we just clear our lines we don’t concede those two goals.

2. It was clear that our midfield was giving up so much time and space for Arsenal to come through. When Eriksen was clearly flagging (as he was for Saka’s goal), we should have either done a straight swap with Malacia, tuck in Shaw as the 3rd CB and go to 5 at the back with Bruno dropping in next to Scotty, or we should have brought on Fred (but I still have PTSD with the McFred midfield).

3. A third option would be to take off Wout for Garnacho, play Rashford down the middle. It worked vs City and at least we can play on the counter. You could even do the Fred sun with Bruno wide right and Eriksen as a 10. The option ETH chose however meant that we were in this halfway house of lacking an out ball (other than Rashers) with Antony off, and keeping Eriksen on when he was flagging.

4. Shaw for some reason didn’t want to make a challenge of Saka. Not sure why but he kept on backing off. I wonder if the move from CB to LB has affected his decision making. Would Malacia have been a better option at LB? He’s definitely a bit more robust, although I think he had a poor game last time he faced off against Saka. In any case, we needed Shaw to play more on the front foot here today.

5. Martinez and Varane are definitely a worthy partnership, but they made Nketiah look like prime Ruud van Nistelrooy today. The winner had a heathy slice of luck on how it got to him, but I’d expect defenders of their calibre to keep him quiet throughout.

6. With 87 mins on the clock and drawing 2-2 away to the league leaders, EtH should have taken the draw. 4 points off Arsenal in a season where they’re impressive isn’t to be sniffed at. He should have shored up the midfield when we were being overrun and put Garnacho on to stretch the game. Keeping things as they were hoping to nick a win was naive.

7. We’ve definitely been affected by the multitude of games lately. Fatigue and a small squad has shown our limitations. Conceding late to Palace and Arsenal (and losing 4 points because of it) is a kick in the teeth, but EtH is doing an admirable job in the circumstance.

8. We need a fit and firing Sancho back.
1. A 6' 6" striker who isn't great in the air
3. Taking Antony off was mistale Fred for Erikesen would have been the right call IMO and later Garnacho for Weghorst
4. Malacia tends to dive in, he would have been a red card in waiting
5. Nketiah's goals were down to De Gea and AWB
6. With who?
7. Like it or not ETH is not blameless, he's made a couple of bad decisions in the last 2 games
 

UDontMessWith24

Full Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2011
Messages
4,023
Fantastic game overall for the neutrals. United, although second best showed glimpses of what they are building towards.

I just want to mention that Zinchenko was an absolute monster today. A cheat code - essentially a modern CM playing LB.

I feel this is what we wanted to do with Martinez initially, as he has the ability to ping delightful balls, and has the tenacity and stamina to replicate Zinchenko. Heck, even Pep is doing the same and allowing Lewis a free role in the RB position.


This touch map is insane. I suspect that’s why many of you felt like we were playing with an extra man. It’s true to an extent during the intense start of the game (before we faded) and towards the end of the second half.

Great game overall, can’t beat a classic fixture.
This made a huge difference, and not having Dalot, who can do the same thing, had a big impact on our midfield running out of gas. Also, Antony was crap and we never had anyone there to really worry Zinchenko, which was one of the mistakes ETH made today. With Garnacho or even Pellistri could have at least kept him honest a little more.
 

Zetrio2002

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
368
Rashford and L.Martinez continued to show how important they are. What an impressive shot from Rashford and an equally hard fought header goal by Martinez.
 

noodlehair

"It's like..."
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Messages
16,287
Location
Flagg
Overall not too displeased seeing as we were missing our best player, and playing the 1st placed side away who also had the benefit of being given the whole week off to help them prepare.

They deserved to win and ultimately it'll get portrayed as us still having "a long way to go" but, if Arsenal had to come to Old Trafford three days after another tough away game, without their best player, and with us having a full week to prepare, I would expect us to win, and wouldn't expect it to require a 91st minute circus goal. Important to keep that in mind really.

Apart from the fact we effectively forfeited our first two games of the season and Arsenal being allowed to dictate their own fixture schedule, I don't think there's a big difference between the two teams at all. Our biggest problem is we have too many games and not enough players, which is an improvement on last season when our biggest problem was that we were completely rubbish at everything.

Few things did annoy me today though:

Luke Shaw - he was backing off Saka so much that he might as well have gone and played in goal. Saka is a good player but if the reason he can't get past you is because you're too scared to get in his way in the first place, that's not a good thing.

Panicking - We deliberately sat back in the second half, yet couldn't defend our own box because whenever the ball came into it none of our players were marking anyone and all flailing their legs randomly around like they were wearing blindfolds. Even when it was passed or crossed straight to one of them they'd just scuff it into a more dangerous area or boot it directly up in the air. If non league teams and most 7 year olds can do better than this I'm not sure there's any excuse for it.

Mctominay - I don't expect him to be Casemiro but where was he the entire second half? Only time I noticed him was when he picked up the ball in attack then ignored an easy ball to Rashford to set up the Arsenal attack that they scored the winner from.

Southgate - just the knowledge that he was watching trying to work out which one of Saka/Rashford he can still drop so his mate Sterling can play.
 

Theonas

Full Member
Scout
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
4,767
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
I hope we see more of this next season.

We did show signs of it vs Chelsea before the WC.

That's the biggest thing missing and I hope further time/more signings allows us to do that consistently.
I am very confident we will mainly because that's what EtH wants to do. The last manager who we had who thought that was important was LvG. Obviously just identifying it as a cornerstone of your team is not enough as was the case with LvG but with EtH as you say, we are already seeing signs and he has the age and enthusiasm of a young coach.

I remember Arteta's Arsenal criticized for parking the bus against the big teams a couple years back. I am not even sure if they were parking the bus or just outplayed. He built the team slowly because there is nothing harder in football coaching than building a team that can take the game to the opponent. We don't even park the bus to that extent and our possession stats are much better against teams who aren't City and Arsenal. I remember we could barely control a game under the previous regimes.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Messages
17,091
I am very confident we will mainly because that's what EtH wants to do. The last manager who we had who thought that was important was LvG. Obviously just identifying it as a cornerstone of your team is not enough as was the case with LvG but with EtH as you say, we are already seeing signs and he has the age and enthusiasm of a young coach.

I remember Arteta's Arsenal criticized for parking the bus against the big teams a couple years back. I am not even sure if they were parking the bus or just outplayed. He built the team slowly because there is nothing harder in football coaching than building a team that can take the game to the opponent. We don't even park the bus to that extent and our possession stats are much better against teams who aren't City and Arsenal. I remember we could barely control a game under the previous regimes.
I'm sure he's planning to do so, but I do wonder what he thinks of De Gea if he's trying to implement a positional game. He's just not good enough as a keeper for that type of style. His distribution is lacking and he doesn't come off his line enough.

And there's definitely been good signs of progress. I think we're arguably ahead of schedule. We can still get better at creating chances with waves and waves of attack vs the cannon fodder in the league and monopolizing the ball even more(like the 2nd half vs Palace - though we should have had a pen).

I don't think we need that many signings, but I think replacing a GK is up there.
 

big_jeffstar

Full Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
468
Can’t say I’m that bothered by the result today, they’re a team that’s fully built now, they scraped past half of our first team, and a tired one at that.. F.A screwed us over and had to apologise for it, their manager somehow manages to be more cringe than pep and Klopp put together, and the ref gave us nothing all game… again…
nice to be their cup final again though I suppose
 

Theonas

Full Member
Scout
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
4,767
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
I'm sure he's planning to do so, but I do wonder what he thinks of De Gea if he's trying to implement a positional game. He's just not good enough as a keeper for that type of style. His distribution is lacking and he doesn't come off his line enough.

And there's definitely been good signs of progress. I think we're arguably ahead of schedule. We can still get better at creating chances with waves and waves of attack vs the cannon fodder in the league and monopolizing the ball even more(like the 2nd half vs Palace - though we should have had a pen).

I don't think we need that many signings, but I think replacing a GK is up there.
I was not a fan of De Gea even when he was our best player of the season. Nothing against him as I think he seems like a positive presence in the dressing room and a humble guy but yeah I can't think of an elite team that plays with a passive keeper. He is the equivalent of a goal scorer who isn't dynamic enough. Yes he will get you goals but the overall team performance might suffer.

I think launching wave after wave of attack is just another organic progress of what EtH is trying to do. You can measure a team's ability by how high up the pitch they can be comfortable in possession. Arsenal today, like City at their best can pass the ball around in your own third. Average teams can do it around the half way line if not deeper. We're moving there and you can see we're much more comfortable in the final third against the mid table teams now. If we can progress from the all time low that was in May 2022 to where we are now, I am really excited about how progress we will make in another 6 to 12 months.
 

tentan

Poor man's poster.
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
4,549
Arsenal better team won.

I'm glad we stood toe to toe with them. We usually would've lost heavily and performed badly last season and the years before, but its a step in the right direction.
 

Basso

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
193
Location
Barcelona
Those stats shown on match of the day were pretty one dimensional! XG and touches in the opposition box was sky high in Arsenal's favour.
 

tenpoless

No 6-pack, just 2Pac
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
16,316
Location
Ole's ipad
Supports
4-4-2 classic
Think about it, if Arteta who was just a meme just one year ago can do this, then Ten Hag can do it as well. Ten Hag has transformed us in such a short space of time. But we need to splash the cash. As the man himself said, we have bought too many players that don't fit the club.

The timing of new ownership couldn't be better, just hope it won't be someone like Boehly.
 
Last edited:

Esquire

Full Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Messages
2,318
People need to realize that Arsenal aren't lucky, they are legitimately the best team in the league this season.

However, I don't think they are much better than us.

The problem we faced all game was, despite how good our defenders were on the ball ( our defenders are better both on and off the ball than theirs), when the ball was played into midfield, Odegaard, Xhaka and Partey were always able to control it. They could hold and turn, in a similar way to our defenders. On the other hand, neither Eriksen or Mctominay had the bravery or balance to do this, hence our defenders tried to play it up to Weighorst ( who had the challenge of knowing two defenders were on him). People can insult Antony, but he was our best outlet. He did a really good job of holding onto the ball and bringing others in. Bruno was decent, as was Rashford, as was Weighorst, as were the defenders including AWB. However, when facing a team that presses like Arsenal, if you don't have midfielders that can provide numbers on the ball for you, the team will struggle to keep possession. In addition, we were very tame at winning the ball in midfield. Weighorst, Antony and Bruno did a good job at trying to win it, but once they got bypassed, it was way to easy for Arsenal to get to our final third.

Games like this are useful. I don't think any other team in the league beats us at the moment. So getting a team that can fully expose potential weaknesses highlights areas of focus for the future.

We obviously need a striker. We need to decide what happens on the right flank ( we have the players, just need to know who takes it). We also need a midfielder with the skill to play for us, but also the positioning and energy to play well in the best of games. Eriksen should be more in the rotation. We can win cups with the current team and will get top 4. However, I really think with the team we have with these additions, we can compete for everything.
Generally agree with you on a lot of your points but cannot agree Eriksen was bad. We where playing a 4321 and McT was absolutely atrocious yesterday. Eriksen basically was a single pivot and you saw they were focused on stopping his passing. Then he got tired and was a passenger from 70’ onward. People are giving Bruno a pass here but he was almost invisible yesterday. Maybe ETH told him to stay up near the forwards but I thought he needed to come back and involve himself more to help the DMs. He contributed very little yesterday. Odegard won that battle of the 10s.
 

simonhch

Horrible boss
Joined
Aug 17, 2010
Messages
14,476
Location
Seventh Heaven
Supports
Urban Combat Preparedness
I didn’t watch the game. Was already having a bad day and I couldn’t risk making it any worse. When I saw the score I wasn’t surprised. Not because I don’t have faith in this team but because of (a) Martial being out again, (b) Casemiro being suspended, and most importantly (c) having only 3 days rest when Arsenal had a whole week.

fecked up.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

New Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2019
Messages
8,363
Those stats shown on match of the day were pretty one dimensional! XG and touches in the opposition box was sky high in Arsenal's favour.
One team has been coached for 3+ season with a manager allowed autonomy to change things, the other is Manchester United.

Those stats will change once ownership does & we can get rid of the dross.
 

Bohman

Full Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Messages
440
Location
Sweden
McTominay, Wan-Bissaka and Bruno had a very bad game. I´m suprised why Bruno continue to get the chance every game even when he missplace ball after ball. None of them should be playing.
 

NewGlory

United make me feel dirty. And not in a sexy way.
Joined
Jul 13, 2019
Messages
4,348
Licha's goal and celebration! Highest moment of the game for me (even though Rashford's goal was truly unbelievably magical).

Licha has only played half a season for us, but I swear he is already a legend in my heart. Absolutely amazing guy. Can't feel anything but love for his skills and passion.
 

Ludens the Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
17,468
Location
London
Fantastic game overall for the neutrals. United, although second best showed glimpses of what they are building towards.

I just want to mention that Zinchenko was an absolute monster today. A cheat code - essentially a modern CM playing LB.

I feel this is what we wanted to do with Martinez initially, as he has the ability to ping delightful balls, and has the tenacity and stamina to replicate Zinchenko. Heck, even Pep is doing the same and allowing Lewis a free role in the RB position.


This touch map is insane. I suspect that’s why many of you felt like we were playing with an extra man. It’s true to an extent during the intense start of the game (before we faded) and towards the end of the second half.

Great game overall, can’t beat a classic fixture.
Our right hand side is basically the aids virus regardless of who plays there. So it doesn’t surprise me he was given so much room.
He’s very very good at that if you allow it to happen which unfortunately we did. Be interesting to see how that works against City who are very strong down that side.
 

Escobar

Shameless Musketeer
Joined
Jun 8, 2004
Messages
30,194
Location
La-La-Land
Erikson was covering Saka which did bot make much sense either. Tactics did not wotk out overall snd a draw would have been flattering
 

norm87cro

New Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
1,782
Location
Split, HR
He wasn't amazing or anything but is it just a coincidence that we lost all control once Antony came off? I feel like he gives us more balance and retains the ball well/is an outlet. I feel like Zinchenko had so much space when Antony came off and I thought it was similar vs Palace.
Its bollocks mate. (I'm not attacking you just giving you my POV) It wasnt Antonys absence he was quite absent hymself. It was the fact that ETH went with Fred (while having both McTominay and Eriksen on the pitch) instead of young Garancho that seald our faith. There was no wide players except Rashford who could carry the ball in the face of relentless Arsenal pressure. We might have lost with Garancho offcourse but at least we would have a counter or two with him.
 

Buster15

Go on Didier
Joined
Aug 28, 2018
Messages
13,456
Location
Bristol
Supports
Bristol Rovers
Bitterly disappointed with the result.

I feel like EtH got some of his tactics and decision making wrong which handed Arsenal the game.

1. We know Arsenal are fantastic at pressing this season. There’s a time and a place to play out from the back. When we’re 1-0 up, away at the league leaders with players who aren’t the best in the ball (DdG, AWB) and with a 6 foot 6 target man up top - we can occasionally go long and win the second ball. The first and third goal we conceded came from this insistence to play out. I admire and respect EtH wanting to play football a certain way, but if we just clear our lines we don’t concede those two goals.

2. It was clear that our midfield was giving up so much time and space for Arsenal to come through. When Eriksen was clearly flagging (as he was for Saka’s goal), we should have either done a straight swap with Malacia, tuck in Shaw as the 3rd CB and go to 5 at the back with Bruno dropping in next to Scotty, or we should have brought on Fred (but I still have PTSD with the McFred midfield).

3. A third option would be to take off Wout for Garnacho, play Rashford down the middle. It worked vs City and at least we can play on the counter. You could even do the Fred sun with Bruno wide right and Eriksen as a 10. The option ETH chose however meant that we were in this halfway house of lacking an out ball (other than Rashers) with Antony off, and keeping Eriksen on when he was flagging.

4. Shaw for some reason didn’t want to make a challenge of Saka. Not sure why but he kept on backing off. I wonder if the move from CB to LB has affected his decision making. Would Malacia have been a better option at LB? He’s definitely a bit more robust, although I think he had a poor game last time he faced off against Saka. In any case, we needed Shaw to play more on the front foot here today.

5. Martinez and Varane are definitely a worthy partnership, but they made Nketiah look like prime Ruud van Nistelrooy today. The winner had a heathy slice of luck on how it got to him, but I’d expect defenders of their calibre to keep him quiet throughout.

6. With 87 mins on the clock and drawing 2-2 away to the league leaders, EtH should have taken the draw. 4 points off Arsenal in a season where they’re impressive isn’t to be sniffed at. He should have shored up the midfield when we were being overrun and put Garnacho on to stretch the game. Keeping things as they were hoping to nick a win was naive.

7. We’ve definitely been affected by the multitude of games lately. Fatigue and a small squad has shown our limitations. Conceding late to Palace and Arsenal (and losing 4 points because of it) is a kick in the teeth, but EtH is doing an admirable job in the circumstance.

8. We need a fit and firing Sancho back.
An interesting post, most of which I do agree with.
Like you, I am mystified as to why the manager did not bring on Garancho. Although not at 87 minutes, but a bit earlier.
I certainly do not subscribe to the 'coward' accusation as some have called. He is very far from that.
So there must have been a good reason why he chose not to.

But arsenal have shown us just what is possible with strategic recruitment.
They have signed some exceptional players and produced a very good team indeed.
 

Buster15

Go on Didier
Joined
Aug 28, 2018
Messages
13,456
Location
Bristol
Supports
Bristol Rovers
McTominay, Wan-Bissaka and Bruno had a very bad game. I´m suprised why Bruno continue to get the chance every game even when he missplace ball after ball. None of them should be playing.
Bruno is a very good player.
But. And it is a very big but for me.
Far too often in big games when we need him most, he goes missing. As he did again yesterday. It happens far too often.
 

Stu Pearson

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
31
Arteta has had a few seasons to get things right and it’s not all been good. Fans were calling for his head not so long ago, also it’s Eric’s first season we have to trust him.
 

justsomebloke

Full Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2020
Messages
5,923
Our big issue this game was defending our own box - we were unable all game to interfere effectively when they were in control around our box - just dropped inside without much pressure on the ball-carrier. Do that against a team as good at that as Arsenal is, and you're in trouble. All three of their goals came from such situations. That's mainly on the CMs, who are the ones who have to break things up in front of the box. Fair to say we missed Casemiro, and Eriksen had a particularly bad night. It also didn't help that Rashford had evidently been relieved of backchecking responsibilities - Shaw was repeatedly put in hopeless positions (though there's of course a tradeoff there, maybe one that was worth it). 24 shots against, more than 20 Arsenal touches in our box and a 2.90 xGA tell their own story.

All in all, I find it oddly hard to feel very disappointed. The result seems right - this is where we are right now. For now, they are simply a better team than we are - when they play to their level and we play to ours (which we probably more or less did, given no Casemiro or Martial), we will lose unless we're lucky. And this time we weren't. (Or maybe we were - our xG was 0.29, just not lucky enough). But we've come a good way. Maybe next year we'll be at the same level.
 

justsomebloke

Full Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2020
Messages
5,923
Bitterly disappointed with the result.

I feel like EtH got some of his tactics and decision making wrong which handed Arsenal the game.

1. We know Arsenal are fantastic at pressing this season. There’s a time and a place to play out from the back. When we’re 1-0 up, away at the league leaders with players who aren’t the best in the ball (DdG, AWB) and with a 6 foot 6 target man up top - we can occasionally go long and win the second ball. The first and third goal we conceded came from this insistence to play out. I admire and respect EtH wanting to play football a certain way, but if we just clear our lines we don’t concede those two goals.

2. It was clear that our midfield was giving up so much time and space for Arsenal to come through. When Eriksen was clearly flagging (as he was for Saka’s goal), we should have either done a straight swap with Malacia, tuck in Shaw as the 3rd CB and go to 5 at the back with Bruno dropping in next to Scotty, or we should have brought on Fred (but I still have PTSD with the McFred midfield).

3. A third option would be to take off Wout for Garnacho, play Rashford down the middle. It worked vs City and at least we can play on the counter. You could even do the Fred sun with Bruno wide right and Eriksen as a 10. The option ETH chose however meant that we were in this halfway house of lacking an out ball (other than Rashers) with Antony off, and keeping Eriksen on when he was flagging.

4. Shaw for some reason didn’t want to make a challenge of Saka. Not sure why but he kept on backing off. I wonder if the move from CB to LB has affected his decision making. Would Malacia have been a better option at LB? He’s definitely a bit more robust, although I think he had a poor game last time he faced off against Saka. In any case, we needed Shaw to play more on the front foot here today.

5. Martinez and Varane are definitely a worthy partnership, but they made Nketiah look like prime Ruud van Nistelrooy today. The winner had a heathy slice of luck on how it got to him, but I’d expect defenders of their calibre to keep him quiet throughout.

6. With 87 mins on the clock and drawing 2-2 away to the league leaders, EtH should have taken the draw. 4 points off Arsenal in a season where they’re impressive isn’t to be sniffed at. He should have shored up the midfield when we were being overrun and put Garnacho on to stretch the game. Keeping things as they were hoping to nick a win was naive.

7. We’ve definitely been affected by the multitude of games lately. Fatigue and a small squad has shown our limitations. Conceding late to Palace and Arsenal (and losing 4 points because of it) is a kick in the teeth, but EtH is doing an admirable job in the circumstance.

8. We need a fit and firing Sancho back.
1. I don't think I'd attribute those two goals to our playing out from the back. Rather I'd point to our inability to interfere effectively with their control when in possession around our box. Hoofing it wouldn't have removed that problem, though it might have avoided some dangerous turnovers.

2. Agreed, Eriksen was in trouble all night - and the combination of him and an a badly supported Shaw spelled trouble on that side.

4. Shaw couldn't challenge Saka because he had no support, and so had no other option than to back off. Rashford wasn't backchecking - presumably by design.
 

Hughes35

Full Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2014
Messages
2,575
Gutted by the result, but so many positives to take from the game.

We are a million miles nearer to being PL contenders than we were when ETH took over. Still a long way to go but you can see it coming together.

Personally, I wouldn't have player Casemiro against Palace and I'd have replaced Eriksen with Fred + put Garnacho on........... Having said that, I'd have also started Rashford up front and he was excellent on the left so what do I know?
 

mitchmouse

loves to hate United.
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
17,546
The actual result was a lot better than I feared. Arsenal are quite some way ahead of us but then Arteta has been in his job quite a lot longer. I'm not 100% sure Casaemiro would have made as big a difference as some are saying. He might have picked up Partey but it was Odegaard who made the difference for me and what we really missed was the pace up front that Arsenal had a a centre forward who threatens to score every time he's in the opponent's box. Mute point but, say, we had Halaand, their defence would have been under more sustained pressure, not only making them work harder but giving our defence a breather. it's why I wanted either Shaw or Lindelof at CB with Martinez taking Casemiro's role.

Have to be a bit critical of ETH - surely he could see the way the game was going and knowing we've conceded a lot more goals than many sides around us, he should have given us a fresh attacking outlet and extra pace by bringing on Garnacho for at least the last 20 minutes. But we have to admit we were beaten by the better team on the day, one that has already rebuilt and continues to add players - something we need to do big time still, or forget being a real threat.

That said, we did enough to show that we could finish in the top four which I was far from certain of back in August but we need to start picking up points in games like these. Chelsea, Liverpool and Newcastle away are places we can't afford to lose at
 

Lentwood

Full Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2015
Messages
6,829
Location
West Didsbury, Manchester
Fantastic game overall for the neutrals. United, although second best showed glimpses of what they are building towards.

I just want to mention that Zinchenko was an absolute monster today. A cheat code - essentially a modern CM playing LB.

I feel this is what we wanted to do with Martinez initially, as he has the ability to ping delightful balls, and has the tenacity and stamina to replicate Zinchenko. Heck, even Pep is doing the same and allowing Lewis a free role in the RB position.


This touch map is insane. I suspect that’s why many of you felt like we were playing with an extra man. It’s true to an extent during the intense start of the game (before we faded) and towards the end of the second half.

Great game overall, can’t beat a classic fixture.
Yeah he was absolutely outstanding, I felt him and Saka really elevated the Arsenal attack to another level
 

Resonance

Full Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
957
Location
Manchester
Its bollocks mate. (I'm not attacking you just giving you my POV) It wasnt Antonys absence he was quite absent hymself. It was the fact that ETH went with Fred (while having both McTominay and Eriksen on the pitch) instead of young Garancho that seald our faith. There was no wide players except Rashford who could carry the ball in the face of relentless Arsenal pressure. We might have lost with Garancho offcourse but at least we would have a counter or two with him.
Shaw was struggling against Saka on the left, this is why he brought Fred on. I also don't think bringing Garnacho on earlier would've made much difference. We couldn't get out of our box, couldn't get hold of the ball, even when we did we just hoofed it back to Arsenal.
 

padzilla

Hipster
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Messages
3,389
I think if we had more goalscoring options than Rashford then yesterday could have been a very different story - we gave them a game for long periods yesterday but faded badly in the last 20 minutes or so.
 

Player Ratings

5.6 Total Average Rating

Highest Rated Player

Lowest Rated Player

Compiled from 252 ratings.

Score Predictions

90,104,49
  • Man Utd win
  • Arsenal win
  • Draw

Detailed Results

  • 21% Arsenal 1:2 Man Utd
  • 15% Arsenal 2:1 Man Utd
  • 13% Arsenal 1:1 Man Utd
  • 9% Arsenal 2:0 Man Utd
  • 8% Arsenal 3:1 Man Utd
  • 5% Arsenal 0:1 Man Utd
  • 5% Arsenal 3:0 Man Utd
  • 5% Arsenal 1:3 Man Utd
  • 5% Arsenal 2:2 Man Utd
  • 2% Arsenal 0:0 Man Utd
  • 2% Arsenal 2:3 Man Utd
  • 2% Arsenal 0:2 Man Utd
  • 2% Arsenal 4:0 Man Utd
  • 1% Arsenal 3:2 Man Utd
  • 1% Arsenal 1:0 Man Utd
  • 1% Arsenal 1:4 Man Utd
  • 0% Arsenal 5:0 Man Utd
  • 0% Arsenal 5:1 Man Utd
  • 0% Arsenal 9:1 Man Utd
  • 0% Arsenal 0:3 Man Utd
  • 0% Arsenal 0:5 Man Utd
  • 0% Arsenal 4:1 Man Utd
Compiled from 243 predictions.
Show more results Score Predictions League Table

Match Stats

  1. Arsenal
  2. Man Utd
Possession
58% 42%
Shots
25 6
Shots on Target
5 4
Corners
12 4
Fouls
8 9

Referee

Anthony Taylor