LvG subbed players having a mare already in the first half. Don't think you can bash him for that.
PL L FA Premier League
Manchester United 1:2 Manchester City
Post-match discussion
Sat, 10 September 2016
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Some interesting stuff here, probably worth 2 minutes of your time:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...lind-antonio-valencia-after-manchester-derby?
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...lind-antonio-valencia-after-manchester-derby?
It was a reply to another post. If we were judging based on the derby then you're absolutely right. Mikhi was a no show and pogba was well below par. On paper though we have the better team. That's what I meant.
I don't think you do though. On paper those players you mention aren't better than the city comparable players. Squad-wise I think we are pretty level, starting 11 we definitely edge it.
Since when does 1 game make a player? Pogba and Silva I would put about even, but one had an off day along with not really being used correctly, while the other was on it and had a system perfect for him.
Also Mkhitaryan is a few levels above Sterling, he's a brilliant player. Just had a bad half and was probably still injured anyway. Not like Sterling did anything in the entire game anyway, but it's laughable to say he's a better player then Mkhitrayan who has proven how good he is at Dortmund.
Don't think there's anything really in it overall for squad, and very little for startling 11. The biggest difference is City having those 3 ready made world class players in attack, with Aguero, Silva and De Bruyne. United have Ibra, then Mkhitaryan who I think can get close to those 2 you have, and then the rest mostly potential. Pogba if used correctly in a 3 like how Pep has his midfield 3 working I think can get us very similar in attack like your lot too.
Put it this way, if we put United's players to match City's in that system, the biggest difference for me comes in that holding midfield role, where Fernandinho is class, while Herrera hasn't played there much (but who knows, can maybe turn in to a good one as his few games have looked good). Difference between United on paper v United in real life and why City's potential is higher at the moment is because of Rooney, and I don't think Mkhitaryan, Ibra or Pogba will be at their best while Rooney is on the pitch. So when he gets dropped and we see things like the below side, then I can see both united and City become truly top teams again.
Aguero
Nolito KDB Silva Sterling
Fernandinho
Kolarov Otamendi Stones Sagna
Bravo
Ibra
Martial Pogba Mkhitaryan Rashford
Herrera
Shaw Blind Bailly Valencia
De Gea
Nolito KDB Silva Sterling
Fernandinho
Kolarov Otamendi Stones Sagna
Bravo
Ibra
Martial Pogba Mkhitaryan Rashford
Herrera
Shaw Blind Bailly Valencia
De Gea
1 game doesn't make a player, you're quite right. Silva is better than pogba by that virtue, he's been class for years, pogba is still be prove it at the highest level IMO. Otamendi is better than Bailly and Stones is better than Blind.
Micky I'll give you, I don't know much about it but I know he had a fantastic season last year. So I'll give you that one.
I agree there's not much between the two teams and I think you're analysis is pretty fair. But in those two teams you've posted, player for player, I would probably only take rashford over sterling, maybe shaw over Kolarov and de gea over bravo.
I'm impressed with Bailly but I've been equally impressed with Stones so that's a very hard call to make. I imagine you'd go with your man like I'd go with stones.
Silva is probably ahead of Pogba at his best currently with Pep, though they're at opposite ends of their careers (and comparing their last individual season is why I put them even as Pogba undoubtedly had a better year). If used correctly though I think they can have similar impacts overall. On the defence... Not sure there is much in it no matter the combo of any of both of our top 3 center backs. Different systems, different requirements.
Yeah a lot of them are very close. Valencia/Sagna, Bailly/Stones, Pogba/Silva, Ibra/Aguero are all options that you could see arguments for both. Martial I think has more about him then Nolito, who is good, but just not as dynamic as Martial. Martial just needs his form back. De Bruyne walks in, Mkhitaryan I would put on the right, Fernandinho easily the holding mid, Shaw the left back and De Gea the keeper. Rest are kind of 50/50.
One thing I'm not sure of with City is what will Pep do with Gundogan? Push De Bruyne to one of the wings and put him next to Silva? The way Silva and De Bruyne are playing together you wouldn't want to change that, but Gundogan is a quality player so he'll get in somewhere.
Yeah I agree re martial, on his day he's definitely the more explosive, deadlier player than Nolito. I do like Nolito, he's very efficient and a good all rounder.
Gundogan is a big good problem for pep. You're absolutely right, who do you drop?! De bruyne is way less effective on the wing because he's not actually that quick. Silva can play wide, does so for Spain and actually I'd say he could do a better job than de bruyne. Still leaves us with less pace up front. I think maybe at home against the weaker teams you could play a three of Gundogan silva and de bruyne but you'll need high possession because neither are known for their tackling. Anyway good problem to have, let's see. But right now id say Gundogan has a job to get in the side!
I think I'll only get over the feelings of what ifs of those two missed chances before halftime once City lose or drop points they shouldn't have. That game was there for the taking once Bravo dropped his first clanger. Definitely feel like at least a point was dropped here tbh.
Valencia to Smalling sub at 75 minutes, Shaw to Rojo sub at 83 minutes. LvG's life wouldn't be complete without subbing both fullbacks.
Why not? Rooney gets away with it.
Exactly.
You don't become title challenger (or not), because of one game.
The general trend is that we are capable of beating/drawing with almost every team in the league.
Unless at team goes and wins virtually every game and gets a record points total, we can definitely challenge for the league.
Biggest problem for me is I still don't know our best 11? Still feel there's something missing. Front 3? Defensive 4? Midfield 4? Honestly, still need a CB, RB and quality midfielder.
Smalling, Valencia and a midfield of Pogba Herrera and Schneiderlin at the expense of Blind and Rooney would be perfect for me.
cesc's_mullet said said:I was impressed by Nolito and of course KDP, Silva and Fernandinho were superb, but the real MOTM was Otamendi who was outstanding IMO.[/QUOTE ]
Jesus wept your standards are low, Roflcopter landing in a place near you
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I don't agree with some of what he said but no one has really argued that City beat United because their players were all better than ours. Most of the focus has been on the tactics and rightly so.
Besides, based on last season Vardy and Mahrez are the best players in the entire league and that's not true so why judge 22 players on 1 game?
Great username btw.
Not convinced about either. Herrera and Schneiderlin are good players but I'm still waiting for that Utd type performance from either player. If either player were playing for opposition, I wouldn't be bothered and that's the problem. We need players that influence games and too many simply don't. For me Mata needs to play 10, he's a player that wouldn't look out of place in any team. This guy always scores in big games.....
I don't mind if Herrera never wins a game by himself or anything like that. I just care about whether or not he can do the job better than the alternatives and I would rather him than Fellaini.
A derby against City or otherwise, there's simply too much kneejerking, scapegoating and negativity.
Also starting to see fans with the "never wanted Mourinho in the first place."
It is one match. Only one match out of close to 40. Even SAF lost 6-1 against City and remarked after that the Rio was naive. Throwing Rio under the bus, too huh?
So much critcism about tactics. How many of us know better? It is simple, no? Even the best tactic, when executed incorrectly will become a terrible one. Imagine we scored 2 from hoofball at the end, fans will be praising how effective it had been.
Unlike many fans who seem stuck to opinions and ways, our managers and players do learn and improve. There are many positives and negatives, as with most games.
Once again, it is only one match.
Also starting to see fans with the "never wanted Mourinho in the first place."
It is one match. Only one match out of close to 40. Even SAF lost 6-1 against City and remarked after that the Rio was naive. Throwing Rio under the bus, too huh?
So much critcism about tactics. How many of us know better? It is simple, no? Even the best tactic, when executed incorrectly will become a terrible one. Imagine we scored 2 from hoofball at the end, fans will be praising how effective it had been.
Unlike many fans who seem stuck to opinions and ways, our managers and players do learn and improve. There are many positives and negatives, as with most games.
Once again, it is only one match.
Mikki and Lingard should be off much earlier, much much earlier than half time.
Not the way to bash LVG on this my friend.
Paul Pogba's poor discipline cost Manchester United in derby defeat against City, says Jamie Carragher: 'I even felt sorry for Marouane Fellaini'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...tml?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...tml?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490
I'm one of the ones who didn't want Mourinho, but he's obviously still looking to figure out his strongest team and best formation, and he's still looking at the potential of some players he's not so familiar with. Phil Neville is right about the City game, the problem was not so much Pogba, but the players failing to understand Mourinho's game plan. Carragher fails every time to read games. He's the worst pundit I've ever seen on TV. Pogba was obviously given licence to go forward, which means other players have to fill the gap in midfield, which they didn't do. And it's why they were hauled off.
Also we saw the defensive limitations of Blind when under severe pressure. And lastly there is the Rooney situation. The problem isn't so much that Mourinho is playing Rooney, but it's how he integrates players around him, and the understanding they have with what he's supposed to be doing.
For me, Rooney is a number 10, but because he keeps dropping back, players around him struggle to understand what kind of system is in place. Managers are seeing that when Rooney is man marked, he's too slow to shake his marker off. He's not particularly good at turning with the ball, and more often than not gets stuck with nowhere to go, where in reality he should be high up the pitch with the goal or Ibra in mind.
I think Mourinho is trying to give Rooney every chance, and he's been trying out other players as well like Lingard, Mata, Martial, Herrera, and where he's some good things against lesser sides, there is not the consistency yet we're hoping for. It's only a matter of time before the right formation is discovered, and the players understand each other, and then we'll be a beast.
I said I didn't want Mourinho to begin with, but the transfers he's pulled off have really impressed me, and I've been happy with how positive he is about going for the title. I still think we'll with the league, but Mou needs to know what his strongest team is soon so the players can understand the game plans with the player understanding each other.
Also we saw the defensive limitations of Blind when under severe pressure. And lastly there is the Rooney situation. The problem isn't so much that Mourinho is playing Rooney, but it's how he integrates players around him, and the understanding they have with what he's supposed to be doing.
For me, Rooney is a number 10, but because he keeps dropping back, players around him struggle to understand what kind of system is in place. Managers are seeing that when Rooney is man marked, he's too slow to shake his marker off. He's not particularly good at turning with the ball, and more often than not gets stuck with nowhere to go, where in reality he should be high up the pitch with the goal or Ibra in mind.
I think Mourinho is trying to give Rooney every chance, and he's been trying out other players as well like Lingard, Mata, Martial, Herrera, and where he's some good things against lesser sides, there is not the consistency yet we're hoping for. It's only a matter of time before the right formation is discovered, and the players understand each other, and then we'll be a beast.
I said I didn't want Mourinho to begin with, but the transfers he's pulled off have really impressed me, and I've been happy with how positive he is about going for the title. I still think we'll with the league, but Mou needs to know what his strongest team is soon so the players can understand the game plans with the player understanding each other.
And he is not wrong, Pogba has no discipline, Deschamps calls him out for it all of the time concerning the national side. He's a young, half complete CM and should not be relied upon to contribute very much defensively. Paying 90+ million for him was a glaring error if we wanted
someone with any defensive qualities. Matuidi at about a third of the price was a far bettter option.
What would he be doing 'better' than Fellaini based on the last 4-5 games...?
Honestly, I never understand some fans. For years we've moan about how the best players in the world go to either Bayern, Real or Barca. We lost out to them more times than not. For the first time in years we genuinely buy a player that would not look out of place in any of them and we through him under the bus after on defeat?
For me, in the future he'll play 10 but we need someone to play 6. At present I've not seen anyone to play there. I'd have hoped it was schneiderlin but clearly not seen anything like the Southampton player. It's funny cause you might get your wish, as I could see Matuidi here next window....
didn't think I threw him under the bus, just stated that he doesn't really have the qualities, as of yet, for the role that he's been given and that that was a known fact. He needs to play in the role that he had at Juve, on the left side of a midfield 3 with a free role.
Its taken me til Tuesday to reply....
Here's my post match pennies worth: Aside from the obvious, ie City were brilliant in that first half. Zlatan's goal kept it alive and we could've nicked it, but best team won etc, here's a few observations:
Firstly, watching our boys stride out onto the pitch filled me with pride and hope. Our squad has a presence again. These players could (and I believe will) restore the Old Trafford fear factor. Obviously City didnt read this script, but lesser teams (which is most of the Prem of course) will. City moved the ball about so well in that first half I couldnt help but admire it. We had to chase the ball, and anyone who's played the game knows how damned tiring that is, so it was no surprise that a lot of players were absolutely knackard by full time. In previous years we would have lost this game 5-0, no doubt about that. Instead we very nearly got something out of it. If Zlatan could've kept one of those 3 shots down as we started the 2nd half, we might have even gone on to win
Mourinho could be blamed for starting Lingard and Mkhitaryan, as neither player could handle the pace of the game, but its nice to have a manger who's brave enough to see it, and to make the subs early. Rash and Herrera made a difference. btw - Lingard and Mkhitaryan will learn from this - quality players who will both get better.
Watching us get overrun in midfield, should Mourinho have asked Rooney to sit deeper to make up the numbers?
So.... I'm still gutted we lost, but mucho optimism going forward. Sometimes an early season disappointment can be a reality check, and galvanize the squad into working even harder. The fact remains that City have the ECL distraction, so I still fancy us to win the Prem
Here's my post match pennies worth: Aside from the obvious, ie City were brilliant in that first half. Zlatan's goal kept it alive and we could've nicked it, but best team won etc, here's a few observations:
Firstly, watching our boys stride out onto the pitch filled me with pride and hope. Our squad has a presence again. These players could (and I believe will) restore the Old Trafford fear factor. Obviously City didnt read this script, but lesser teams (which is most of the Prem of course) will. City moved the ball about so well in that first half I couldnt help but admire it. We had to chase the ball, and anyone who's played the game knows how damned tiring that is, so it was no surprise that a lot of players were absolutely knackard by full time. In previous years we would have lost this game 5-0, no doubt about that. Instead we very nearly got something out of it. If Zlatan could've kept one of those 3 shots down as we started the 2nd half, we might have even gone on to win
Mourinho could be blamed for starting Lingard and Mkhitaryan, as neither player could handle the pace of the game, but its nice to have a manger who's brave enough to see it, and to make the subs early. Rash and Herrera made a difference. btw - Lingard and Mkhitaryan will learn from this - quality players who will both get better.
Watching us get overrun in midfield, should Mourinho have asked Rooney to sit deeper to make up the numbers?
So.... I'm still gutted we lost, but mucho optimism going forward. Sometimes an early season disappointment can be a reality check, and galvanize the squad into working even harder. The fact remains that City have the ECL distraction, so I still fancy us to win the Prem
Did you say that when we're winning the first 3 football matches or once we signed him before he kicked a football for us?
Before we signed him yes. I'm sure you could find it in one of the Pogba threads.
And winning games...? Everyone can be a Monday morning manager.....
I don't think I made very much comment at all after winning games, wasn't around much in August. Pogba is often ill disciplined, it's well known, that is all.
Maybe you should have watched them first and then you could have been more balanced than just the game we've lost....oh how many Juve or France games have you watched him play in then to form your own opinion?
i watched the games, just didn't make much comment as far as I can recall. For the France games, I've seen every one since about 1985, attending about 30% personally, and about half of Juve's games in the last 10 years or so...Enough for you...
I see the Bertie loonies now are campaigning to get Zlatan banned for an alleged elbow on Otamendi, which isn't an elbow at all.
They just never stop, do they?
They just never stop, do they?
Can anyone tell me how brutal the highlights are? I havent watched them yet and I dont think I want to if we look utterly hopeless.
Pep has got them passing very well. At times it was very Barca like. The same feelings of frustration from our previous meetings with Barca appeared when we couldn't get the ball. They have very clever players like KDB, Silva and Fernandinho which is perfect for Pep. They were very impressive. However the first half an hour settled the game. We can't let any team do that to us if we want to be successful.
Man of the Match
Runners-up
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14%
Marcus Rashford
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13%
Marouane Fellaini
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12%
Eric Bailly
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10%
Antonio Valencia
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8%
Luke Shaw
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8%
Wayne Rooney
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7%
Zlatan Ibrahimovic
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4%
David de Gea
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1%
Paul Pogba
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1%
Daley Blind
Player Ratings
Total Average Rating
Highest Rated Player
Lowest Rated Player
Compiled from 744 ratings.
Score Predictions
793,61,221
- Man Utd win
- Man City win
- Draw
Detailed Results
- 32% Man Utd 2:1 Man City
- 13% Man Utd 2:0 Man City
- 12% Man Utd 1:1 Man City
- 10% Man Utd 1:0 Man City
- 8% Man Utd 3:1 Man City
- 4% Man Utd 0:0 Man City
- 4% Man Utd 3:2 Man City
- 3% Man Utd 2:2 Man City
- 3% Man Utd 1:2 Man City
- 3% Man Utd 3:0 Man City
- 2% Man Utd 5:0 Man City
- 1% Man Utd 1:3 Man City
- 1% Man Utd 4:1 Man City
- 1% Man Utd 0:2 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 0:5 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 2:3 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 4:2 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 0:1 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 0:3 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 5:1 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 5:4 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 4:0 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 1:4 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 0:4 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 3:3 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 5:5 Man City
Match Stats
- Man Utd
- Man City
- Possession
- 40% 60%
- Shots
- 14 18
- Shots on Target
- 3 6
- Corners
- 4 4
- Fouls
- 15 10
Referee
Mark Clattenburg
Man Utd Lineup
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replaced by Anthony Martial
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-
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replaced by Marcus Rashford
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replaced by Ander Herrera
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