This shower talk is strange. To the people who worry about it: Do you think about whether a stranger is gay when in a public changing room as well? I'd bet almost all of us have been in a changing room with a gay person without anyone giving it a thought.
Premier League footballer says ‘I’m gay but I’m afraid to come out’ in anguished open letter
- Thread starter esmufc07
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Here we go. The caf can't disappoint when is comes to people who are ignorant yet talk with such confidence.
True I think I mean on forums and online that there has been a lot more thought gone into it. It is more proper in the sense that it’s happened at all.
It seems, looking at that link, that the bigger studies, confirm smaller numbers of people being gay. The larger percentages seem to come from polls when they count any same sex experience as gay or bi. Getting a bj by a guy in college doesn't make you gay, it means you experimented sexually.
To be honest, i think explanations for why there are so few gay footballers reek of far left ideology. It all seems a bit like Bible and Spade archaeology to me. The conclusion is drawn and then the narrative is formed. The conclusion is that given we know there are, let's say for argument sake, 3% of gay people, that there should be 3% of gay footballers and thus there will have been hundreds in the professional game and the fact we are unaware of so few tells us that they are scared to come out, due to homophobia. It paints a picture of a horribly repressive society that needs dramatic restructuring. But could this just be a case of diaspora politics?
According to Slate.com around 50% of male fight attendants are gay. If one industry can have such an insane over representation of gay men, then why is it so hard to believe that other industries aren't insanely under represented? It makes no sense. As others have pointed out, where are all the Asian and East Asian footballers? Approximately 7% of the UK is is Asian. Yet in 28 years of Prem football, of over 2000 British players, only 4 Asian's have ever played. So we can see with our own eyes, how staggering the difference is. There is no way anyone can claim there are loads of closet Asian's pretending to be white or black. Anyone convinced there are a decent number of gay footballers, surely has to seriously consider a rethink based on that alone. It doesn't mean there aren't of course, but the certainty there must be, has to have significantly diminished in your minds.
Here is a link to the article of the 50 greatest Utd Prem players. Most will disagree with the list, but I think it's fair to say we'd all be shocked if a single one of these players were gay (even Ronaldo). Yet if this was representative of the population as large, you'd expect 1 or 2. No I know we can only speculate on the payers listed, but I have to say, I'd find it pretty ingenuous if most didn't think any were gay. Be honest with yourselves, do you really think any of that list or even the current squad are gay? I'm not asking if you think they could be, but if you genuinely think they are?
https://www.sportbible.com/football...-players-of-all-time-have-been-named-20200607
So, if in certain professions, gay men can be over represented by around 15 times, surely it makes sense that in other jobs, there is going to be the equivalent under representation. Given the already small percentage of people that are gay, I don't think it's at all hard to imagine there could only be 1 or 2 gay footballers in the Prem. Then when you take into account the Asian numbers, where they seem to be under represented by roughly 35 times, then suddenly the plausibility of very few gay footballers looks dramatically more realistic. If gay representation simply matches that of Asians, you'd have to expect just about 2 British gay players in 28 years of Prem football. That will probably be mind blowing to most people, but you have to ask yourself why? I'm not saying there have only been 2 gay players, but I'm just illustrating it's not massively unlikely to be that low, which is hard for most to get their heads around (much like the BLM data,) as political ideologies force feeds us oppression narratives.
If you think about it Kyle Walker really didn't want to get caught with a hooker. Neither did Rooney. In fact no player who gets caught cheating on his wife/GF, ever wants to get caught and have it in the tabloids. But it happens all the time. It's the same with actors, musicians and politicians etc, who don't want to be outed as gay. But they are always getting found out and it's then reported in the press. Gareth Thomas first had to come out as gay and then years later as HIV positive, due to others going to the press. So what is so special about gay footballers? Do they have some special talent for not being "outed?" It just makes no sense, but we are never shown to look at it from this perspective. All we ever hear is about gay footballers being scared to come out etc, to the point, that many think it's reasonably prevalent, but old hetro-normative power structures are ruining lives and we mist revolt!
I imagine the overwhelming subconscious thought is that everyone is straight and suddenly knowing that one person (or more) is gay would challenge a lot of that subscious approach.
People who don't believe they're homophobic might not be aware that they are and when the gay person is in the shower with them they might not be able to control the challenge to their mindset?
I mean, it's not like gay people are going to suddenly just start groping you in the showers once they're known but I've been in situations with friends where we've been in Canal Street in Manchester and they've gotten in a mood because there aren't suddenly a load of blokes hitting on them (not seeing the irony of being homophobic but wanting the attention) so it's that kind of mentality - 'oh they're gay so they're gonna check me out'. It challenges perceptions and preconceived notions that are outdated and not based in realty and people generally don't like to be challenged on that.
Wasn’t there a player in the MLS that came out? How did fans react to him?
Different cultures and different levels of importance within (soccer in the US is nothing compared to football here) so not a great comparison but I believe he was pretty well supported in the main.
The shower comparison is disingenuous - footballers are showering together as part of their job. Players are professional. They are not going to work to look at their teammates' cocks any more than I am going to work every day to see a female coworker's legs or cleavage, e.g. The better comparison is with the workplace - if one of your coworkers said they didn't feel comfortable working in the same workspace as you because they were worried you'd be 'checking them out', are you saying you wouldn't feel offended?
So quite a lot then.
Deeney specifically said showers I believe. But also, I think he seemed to be saying that was on him to get used to it. There is just no need to get offended and I think in those circumstances, most reasonable people, without the input of idealogs, would understand.
The bigger question is why Louis Theroux even asked about it. It's like an obsession people have with this idea that there are lots of oppressed gay footballers and it's clearly ideological. Louis Theoroux is a super smart guy, with a first class honours degree from Oxford. Yet he parrots the same orthodoxy we see all the time in media and doesn't seem even think about it. Why? I just don't get what the desperation to find oppression and reasons to be offended in everything is. I know where it comes from, but I don't get why people don't question it.
It's a much nicer view of the world to assume their are just very few gay footballers. There is an abundance of reasoning to support this. But for certain factions there is no incentive to believe it and every reason to believe in the oppression narrative. Stuff like this is breaking our society and people don't seem to care.
I'm genuinely curious to know how you think it's breaking our society.
Have you not seen the constant social unrest? There is a desperation to make certain groups look oppressed and thus suggest other groups are oppressing them.
I hope that the respective team captains speaks up in the dressing room and adresses this and makes it abundantly clear that the entire team will support him if he's a player of his club.
Robbie Rogers and Collin Martin. No one really cared and they were both well supported.
The crowds are rather different though. MLS supporters are largely younger and more tolerable people. The drunk overweight idiot yelling obscenities which are a dime a dozen at football matches in England aren’t the type to follow football/soccer in the USA and Canada. Those types in USA are the kind of guys to say soccer is a pussy sport and for women so they aren’t following the MLS to have any idea who Collin Martin even is to abuse him or anything.
Just one of many players. Most popular sport in the world and I doubt someone here can name 3 gay footballers without googling.
I think it might take a player like Zlatan, somebody with a big character to come out first and others might follow.
You aren't naive at all. I agree with you though that it is a leap to come out alone and perhaps a group of people announcing it at the same time is the way to go. Or perhaps people should keep their personal lives personal.
Sad letter.
On a similar note, what is women's football like with regards to this? Are they more accepting?
On a similar note, what is women's football like with regards to this? Are they more accepting?
There's loads of out female players from what I've seen. I'm assuming Casey Stoney was out whilst playing too. Doesn't seem to be an issue in the women's game, though fewer fans means less attention for them to deal with so its probably a lot easier for them in that respect.
I understand people's words and doings can easily stings, I means giving harmful things and ruin your days and life.
But then, that then pose several questions.
1. Why do you care so much about what other people say or react or behave etc? People and press in general/overall will always say bad things, it's unavoidable.
2. Why do you need to come out and tell the whole world (or in OP's hidden footballer case, tell the manager and teammates) your sexuality?
3. Why not just keep it be and casually have that kind of relationship and express that sexuality without the need to tell everyone? I mean try and find someone who also have the same interest? Just do that by having personal talk with someone whom you trust.
4. So just why have this necessity or feelings of necessary to tell people? Insecure? Wanting validation? To feel more special? Does it even matter if they know or not?
5. I mean, we all have our own interests essentially, a lot but then are we genuinely wanting to know every single thing about other people? even the things that are meaningless or even important to other people but not us? Not really. Let's admit it, generally we don't care.
For example: "Hey guys, I'm interested in that girl at the coffee shop", or "Hey you all, I'm interested in woman", "I like to play football and tennis", "I'm into foot-wear" etc. Usually unless we find that people interesting, we just don't care and it'll be like "meh.." or "okay.." or if you're honest "look man, I don't care and don't want to know".
Long story short, it's not necessary to tell the people in this case. They're just co-workers/teammates.
I do get managing mental health (the footballer said his mental health is affected) is complicated.
And yeah, I don't know what the footballer went through. I just don't get why he need to tell his team. If his team is good people, then honestly telling them should be fine. Just tell them, "eventhough I'm gay, I'm not interested in you all so don't worry, just keep things like how we used to, I just want you all to know". Be upfront and honest, and earnest. If they're good people, then they would be understanding and respectfully still accepts you. If not, then expect abuse or at least cynical teasings. Realistically, there'll be mixed results, some accepts, some rejects. After revealing, if you expect things to be the same as before, then you're not being realistic. New info about yourself will lead to people react differently.
Still no reason why it's necessary to tell. Why do you even want to tell them again in the first place?
But then, that then pose several questions.
1. Why do you care so much about what other people say or react or behave etc? People and press in general/overall will always say bad things, it's unavoidable.
2. Why do you need to come out and tell the whole world (or in OP's hidden footballer case, tell the manager and teammates) your sexuality?
3. Why not just keep it be and casually have that kind of relationship and express that sexuality without the need to tell everyone? I mean try and find someone who also have the same interest? Just do that by having personal talk with someone whom you trust.
4. So just why have this necessity or feelings of necessary to tell people? Insecure? Wanting validation? To feel more special? Does it even matter if they know or not?
5. I mean, we all have our own interests essentially, a lot but then are we genuinely wanting to know every single thing about other people? even the things that are meaningless or even important to other people but not us? Not really. Let's admit it, generally we don't care.
For example: "Hey guys, I'm interested in that girl at the coffee shop", or "Hey you all, I'm interested in woman", "I like to play football and tennis", "I'm into foot-wear" etc. Usually unless we find that people interesting, we just don't care and it'll be like "meh.." or "okay.." or if you're honest "look man, I don't care and don't want to know".
Long story short, it's not necessary to tell the people in this case. They're just co-workers/teammates.
I do get managing mental health (the footballer said his mental health is affected) is complicated.
And yeah, I don't know what the footballer went through. I just don't get why he need to tell his team. If his team is good people, then honestly telling them should be fine. Just tell them, "eventhough I'm gay, I'm not interested in you all so don't worry, just keep things like how we used to, I just want you all to know". Be upfront and honest, and earnest. If they're good people, then they would be understanding and respectfully still accepts you. If not, then expect abuse or at least cynical teasings. Realistically, there'll be mixed results, some accepts, some rejects. After revealing, if you expect things to be the same as before, then you're not being realistic. New info about yourself will lead to people react differently.
Still no reason why it's necessary to tell. Why do you even want to tell them again in the first place?
No offence, but your post illustrates exactly where the problem lies and how little you've actually thought about what the situation is actually like for someone in that position. Do you really not get it? They don't want to 'tell' anyone. They want to get on with their lives. You say they shouldn't care what people think, then follow it up with wondering why they feel the need to 'tell the world'. You've essentially presented a reality for a young man, where they should be comfortable hiding a huge part of themselves that no straight person is asked to hide, to lie and second guess every word out of their mouths (in case they give themselves away) for however long their career may last. We live in the age of social media. Fernandes can post about his wife on insta, go for a meal, take her to an awards dinner, go on holiday etc...But gay players should hide away?
Can you imagine the sun sending their paparazzi after him for months. His private life would be all over the papers for months.
Load of shite that the man can't just get on with his life. It's 2020 FFS.
I agree. If one comes out then others will. And hopefully sooner or later someone will. My heart goes out for this Guy
A couple of things. You seen pretty intent on getting the numbers of gay footballers down. Not sure why. You're right in that gay men might be found more in some professional contexts, but even if they constitute 3% of all UK men and only 1% of footballers (seems like a conservative estimate to me), then there should 4 gay players in the EPL. (20 teams with 20 players per squad.)
Also, anti-gay sentiments might be part of the reason why gay men prefer certain professional contexts, in which case there would be nothing 'normal' about a relatively low perctange in football.
Finally, what are you trying to get at with that list of 50 great footballers? Are you suggesting that we should all be able to figure out who's gay and who isn't based on their appearances or playing style...?
I think a major obstacle in Europe is the expected reaction from opposition fans. Football isn't nearly as partisan in North America, so that really changes the dynamic.
Sorry, but this is an absolutely awful take. Gay men aren't waiting for their chance to safely step into the limelight and publicly announce to all the world that they're gay. They just want to live normal lives, with normal relationships. The problem is that, if you do that as a gay footballer, before long people will find out that you're dating a guy, and then you're in the gossip rags, and then suddenly it is very public. Especially since there are no known active gay footballers, it will be a huge thing once someone is 'discovered' to be gay. That's not their choice, it's what society would impose upon them.
You could then bring in your argument about not caring about public opinion, but do you really just expect people to shrug off incessant (possibly) chats from opposition fans, unwanted media attention, the pressure of suddenly being seen as some kind of icon, and so on? That's a lot of pressure and abuse to just not care about. No-one is that stress-resistant.
To be honest, thinking that 'coming out' is some kind of big public event that gay people enjoy or want is absolutely part of the problem they face.
But certain groups are oppressed. If pointing that out causes social unrest, then what does that say about society.
It's also an interesting choice of word. Desperate. Just who do you think is desperate to make certain groups seem oppressed? And for what purpose?
You do know that in shower, they're naked. What does it have to do with "Players are professional"?? Getting shower naked together is not part of footballer's job, or activity to get them functioned well in their job.
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The abuse would be horrific. Even if it came from only 1% of fans, it would still amount to a lot of abuse. Sadly, there's a long way to go regarding homophobia here in the UK. Then you've got the rest of the world to deal with in this digital age plus the fact that many footballers travel abroad to play football.
I think we're a very long way away from the time when a gay footballer doesn't feel the need to hide their sexuality. Depressing thought.
I think we're a very long way away from the time when a gay footballer doesn't feel the need to hide their sexuality. Depressing thought.
I'm afraid to even ask ... Why?
The media are a byproduct of consumer demand. People love gossip, scandal and witch-hunts. Unfortunately this kind of topics usually marginalised people and creates two camps, one of which is also very susceptible to violence.
Please stop talking. You may then hear the whooshing sound above your head.
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It is much higher. Even surveys where 2/3% of people identify as being gay you will usually get 4% who do not answer. I'd be guessing that not many heterosexuals don't want to say and those who haven't come out may also incorrectly answer the question.
It seems certain the the true figure is at least 5% and probably much higher, 8-10%, especially if you included all those who aren't 6/6 heterosexual.
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I f*cking give up.
What a knob.
I say this in all of these threads...
Many gay footballers are not hiding their sexuality. There is zero need for anyone to come out publicly.
Also - there are gay footballers in homosexual relationships doing just fine in life. Living together. Kissing men in bars in their respective cities. Squads know.
This obsession with other people’s personal lives is disgusting and weird.
I feel for, and support the human that wrote the letter. Obviously.
Honestly as a gay man I have no issue with what Deeney said. He's not endorsing it, he's just being typically forthright. And he's right. That is exactly the kind of thing that a load of unreconstructed footballers are going to be thinking for a couple of weeks when they find out their teammate is gay, until they get used to the idea. It's naive and unhelpful to pretend otherwise.
It's better that people be honest about the problem, even if that includes their own opinions. I'd rather 'know my enemy', for want of a better phrase. The really fecked up thing about being gay in this country is that if you listen to the media you'd imagine that 90% of people are accepting and we live in some kind of post-homophobia wonderland. Whereas in fact the feeling you get in general life is that you've got at best about a third of people at best genuinely fine with it, a third not really comfortable with it but likely to put up with it or at least pretend to do so, and a third openly homophobic in any setting less public than a national TV interview.
It's better that people be honest about the problem, even if that includes their own opinions. I'd rather 'know my enemy', for want of a better phrase. The really fecked up thing about being gay in this country is that if you listen to the media you'd imagine that 90% of people are accepting and we live in some kind of post-homophobia wonderland. Whereas in fact the feeling you get in general life is that you've got at best about a third of people at best genuinely fine with it, a third not really comfortable with it but likely to put up with it or at least pretend to do so, and a third openly homophobic in any setting less public than a national TV interview.
I think this is probably the best answer/idea I’ve seen, maybe this is something the PFA could help with, a group of players across the leagues coming out as a group. Obviously they’d have to feel under no reassure to do so, but I can completely understand no one would want to be the first openly gay prem footballer. The scrutiny and pressure you’d suddenly be under would be fecking horrendous.
Yeah, but a troll like me doesn't have to worry about all these gay men popping raging boners as soon as they lay eyes on me. It's obviously different for Troy Deeney.
Fair play.
Also, I don’t know much about Deeney except he seems to give it 100% when playing so not sure why he gets so much flak on here.
That's just not true
If you are right, then the writer of that letter is essentially bringing up a non-issue. So I am curious how you would know that, if the writer doesn't and no-one else (as far as I can tell) seems to know about all these gay footballers either.
Probably on average one in every two or two in every three squads; see the stats posts earlier in the thread.
No. The letter wrote is bringing up their issue. And it’s important to them.
I know it to be true as my friend briefly dated a footballer. Said footballer is now settled down with his boyfriend. When I was told, my face said it surprised me. His response told me I shouldn’t be. He saw plenty of players out in gay bars when he was single. Uninhibited.
None of this is to say that a Southampton midfielder coming out in public, wouldn’t be abused by West Ham fans.
What we really need is for Antonio to see all this noise, come out fresh after smashing in four this weekend, West Ham get behind him, defend him, him to kick on and finish up top scorer next year. The whole thing probably goes away overnight.
It’s still less of an issue than people believe though. It’s case by case.
EDIT : Used Antonio as example
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