Barca play press football with 2 of the slowest center backs on the planet. Puyol and Pique. Even Xavi and Buquets can't be mistaken for players blessed with pace....
Pressing football
- Thread starter Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
- Start date
Sometimes I think things get simplified on here a bit too much. Yes some of our midfield combinations are more prone to being exposed by pressing teams and they are usually not the best suited to pressing themselves. However we do have players capable of pressing and who have done it very well in the past. Carrick fletcher and ando have worked together very well to form a tight midfield that can press teams really well. Last season we played against Chelsea and got at them by pressing well. As I said we do have the players to do it but unfortunately most of them have been injured which is another topic.
Similarly i've seen people say that we cant do what Chelsea did in Europe and keep it tight. Firstly I would say its debatable how tight Chelsea actually made it but more that we do have the players but again they've been injured.
I would say though that beyond the injuries and need to get in a midfielder as a result of fletchers condition, we could help ourselves more by getting Rooney to drop deeper. Personally I don't think he played that deep this season and I think we could use him coming a bit shorter more often, particularly if we keep with scholes in the team.
Similarly i've seen people say that we cant do what Chelsea did in Europe and keep it tight. Firstly I would say its debatable how tight Chelsea actually made it but more that we do have the players but again they've been injured.
I would say though that beyond the injuries and need to get in a midfielder as a result of fletchers condition, we could help ourselves more by getting Rooney to drop deeper. Personally I don't think he played that deep this season and I think we could use him coming a bit shorter more often, particularly if we keep with scholes in the team.
Atletico did play on the counter. But they didn't merely sit off opponents like we do. They made it night impossible for opponents to play through them. Playing aggressively even in deeper areas.
In comparison for us we seem to dare the opposition to do something with the ball when they have it.
As for Chelsea. For me they hardly count. They were simply playing defiance football. Albeit in a highly organized fashion.
Another set of games in which the type of pressing I'm talking about worked a treat was vs Arsenal in 2009, in the champions league. Anderson, Carrick and Fletcher gave them hell whenever they had the ball. Even when we sat deeper. It was very hard for them to play through or around us.
To be fair how do you press the opposition lots with Scholes and Carrick as part of the midfield two? You could make it a three but only by adding Giggs which still wouldn't work. We need Anderson and Cleverley to press well and we did at the start of the season when they were available.
Damn that injury curse. It cause still birth to that Ando-Cleverly project
I would like to see us press more as well. If not for the whole 90 minutes (difficult I know) then at least in our own half.
We all too often don't press and allow teams to almost walk the ball to the edge of our box before we start trying to win it back. Good for counter attacking when teams over push, but shit for us having to always start so far back - and then we end up slow playing it out to the wings and back to the middle and out to the wings etc etc. (not always but you get the jist of it)
Any team that presses us causes us problems. Liverpool do it every time we play them and I think that's part of the reason for their recent good form against us.
If you believe that the last time we went out to press an opponent was the 7-1 game vs Roma, you've obviously missed a few games since.Who called it radical?
Hypebole. Since 2008 we have hardly played pressing football at all. 2008 was the season in which we morphed into a counter attacking old school Serie A style team and we've been like that ever since.
Besides, the last time we went out to deliberately press an opponent we slaughtered them 7-1 at OT. (AS ROMA).
I'm also not convinced you can't hunt in packs for the ball, with a few 30 + year old's in your team. Especially if they are very good at keeping the ball.
I think there's a lack of clarity over what is being meant by pressing.
If you mean high pressing like Barcelona and Bilbao the reason we don't do it is because we have fewer players comfortable in possession than they do. To successfully play that way and not get exhausted after half an hour you need not only to win the ball high up the field but keep it so that your players aren't having to run the length of the field constantly. As Cruyff said the reason Barca don't appear to tire is because they play the game almost entirely in their opponents' half if they didn't keep the ball so well and had to keep sprinting around to get it back they'd be knackered by half time. Our players can't match Barca and Bilbao in their ability to play triangles and dribble their way out of trouble. Even Carrick who is great when given time and space to choose his spots panics and plays lose balls when put under sustained pressure in a way someone like Martinez or Sergi Busquets doesn't.
If you mean allowing the other side to play in our half well that's very different. I still remember Sheffield United having a corner against us was it in 94 or 95 and Cantona heading it out and starting a move that 4 passes later ended in Cantona scoring. Its always been a feature of our play to be able to transition from defence to attack and over the years we have been excellent at absorbing pressuring and springing the counter. We mastered it during the late 90s when we had to find a solution to that Juve. 2 banks of 4, every zone covered and an extra man playing what we used to call 'the Del Piero' role dropping back and making sure there were 3 players surrounding the man on the ball at all times. In the past 2 years that's vanished a bit. For the most part because the midfielders and the man in the hole are not working as a cohesive unit when we're not in possession.
If you mean high pressing like Barcelona and Bilbao the reason we don't do it is because we have fewer players comfortable in possession than they do. To successfully play that way and not get exhausted after half an hour you need not only to win the ball high up the field but keep it so that your players aren't having to run the length of the field constantly. As Cruyff said the reason Barca don't appear to tire is because they play the game almost entirely in their opponents' half if they didn't keep the ball so well and had to keep sprinting around to get it back they'd be knackered by half time. Our players can't match Barca and Bilbao in their ability to play triangles and dribble their way out of trouble. Even Carrick who is great when given time and space to choose his spots panics and plays lose balls when put under sustained pressure in a way someone like Martinez or Sergi Busquets doesn't.
If you mean allowing the other side to play in our half well that's very different. I still remember Sheffield United having a corner against us was it in 94 or 95 and Cantona heading it out and starting a move that 4 passes later ended in Cantona scoring. Its always been a feature of our play to be able to transition from defence to attack and over the years we have been excellent at absorbing pressuring and springing the counter. We mastered it during the late 90s when we had to find a solution to that Juve. 2 banks of 4, every zone covered and an extra man playing what we used to call 'the Del Piero' role dropping back and making sure there were 3 players surrounding the man on the ball at all times. In the past 2 years that's vanished a bit. For the most part because the midfielders and the man in the hole are not working as a cohesive unit when we're not in possession.
Very good post
You raise a very interesting point.
I agree about the pressing you talked about. 2 banks of 4, every zone covered and an extra man playing what we used to call 'the Del Piero' role dropping back and making sure there were 3 players surrounding the man on the ball at all times. That is the pressing United has stopped using.
Nowadays we just stand off opponents and rely on sheer numbers and the intercepting qualities of a Carrick to win back the ball.
We play counter with wingers, we haven't got the players to press at the moment although we came close with ando and cleverly playing together at the start of the season when a lot of the play was focused through the middle. Perhaps this will change over the next couple of seasons
We pressed Barcelona well for the first ten minutes in the '11 and '09 Champions League finals, we were knackered pretty soon though and ended up getting well beaten in both games.
#07 is pretty much spot on. To press like Barca, you need to be able to keep the ball like them too which is something we cant. So we press less. We still do it though but mindless closing down cannot last for more than 20-30 mins as shown in the CL finals vs Barca when we tried it. Its something that needs to be worked on endlessly or you risk being exposed or tired if you cant keep the ball when you get it.
What you should see when you play United and you're looking to play out of the back is two walls of four. You look one side you see the winger, you look the other side the centre midfielder, you turn around the second striker is coming at you.
You play it down the wing you look ahead the full back is there, to the side the centre midfielder, to the rear the winger. Or into the centre of midfield ahead of you centre backs, behind you a centre midfielder one coming, one tracking the free centre midfielder.
That is how we used to play. How we played for much of the last 15-20 years really. Over the last two seasons its all gone to pot. Arguably its cos some of the younger players are naive and don't work as a unit, arguably its cos we've lost some mobility in centre midfield. Whatever it is it must frustrate Fergie no end having spent the 90s trying to figure out how to conquer England and Europe only to see his tactical blueprint betrayed by quite basic mistakes.
Our midfield shield does not move as a line and even at times our defence doesn't move as a line. They sort of stand there and let Carrick try to screen the defence without anyone pressing the man on the ball and then when someone gets into a dangerous position its panic stations and people throwing themselves at the ball or desperately trying not to give away a penalty...
We often play pressing football. The difference between us and Barca is often the positional play.
We do press, but it's harder to press the team effectively when the midfield is as deep as ours can be at times - and with Carrick and Scholes tending to be our midfield, it's not exactly suited
I made a thread about this very thing after the Blackburn (I think) game, and it was the same against Basel - we really struggled to get the ball back from them at times, we still dominated possession, but there were times they could comfortable keep the ball for a long period
I'm sure as the central midfield and central defence starts to get younger, we'll start to get better with it again, it's just one of those natural things I guess that it gets harder to do as the players get older
I made a thread about this very thing after the Blackburn (I think) game, and it was the same against Basel - we really struggled to get the ball back from them at times, we still dominated possession, but there were times they could comfortable keep the ball for a long period
I'm sure as the central midfield and central defence starts to get younger, we'll start to get better with it again, it's just one of those natural things I guess that it gets harder to do as the players get older
I'd quite like it if we at times tried pressing a bit higher up the pitch, if that's what the OP is getting at. If that means using players with higher energy levels, so be it. It gives us a variety we don't really have defensively.
Sir Alex
To expand..The kind of players he brings in. He obviously believes in a different style/system
i've been saying this for the last three or four years. some of our players do it sometimes but as a general rule United hardly ever play pressing football. we have a few players that can do it, and United did it very early last season with success, but went back to our usual soft defensive style. we don't get pressed much in the prem but when we are we always struggle and usually lose if the other team can sustain the pressure. teams know that's our weakness and the smart ones use it against us. it's especially bad when we play outside the prem...in europe. until we get past this, ultimate success in europe will elude United.
We rarely do. Most of the time we have stand-off-ish approach.
And I don't see why everyone keeps comparing what Chief is talking about and what Barca do. Theirs is an extreme form of pressing which probably comes off only if you're as good at keeping the ball as they are. There are other degrees of pressing too. And every other team around does that.
It's quite clearly a tactic we've chosen that we think suits us (pressing rarely). This season I don't think we had the players to do otherwise. And when we had them we did do it. So hopefully in the future as the team takes a new shape (especially in midfield) we see us pressing more and more.
People dont really understand how and why Barca press. Firstly the idea that Barca press high is misleading.
Barca press the moment they lose the ball. they do this because they play a short passing game which means the moment they lose the ball they have decent numbers of players near to the opposition and its easier to press right away. However if you watch Barca when they lose the ball when they dont have numbers nearby they simply drop off. They then work off the ball to "encourage" the opposition move to an area of the pitch where they can then squeeze and press.
Barca dont press high, they press when its appropriate, quite a big difference.
We press in some games and dont in other games, it all depends on what the opposition are doing. Pressing against teams which have a defensive setup which has a view to counter attacking is a dangerous thing to do.
Barca press the moment they lose the ball. they do this because they play a short passing game which means the moment they lose the ball they have decent numbers of players near to the opposition and its easier to press right away. However if you watch Barca when they lose the ball when they dont have numbers nearby they simply drop off. They then work off the ball to "encourage" the opposition move to an area of the pitch where they can then squeeze and press.
Barca dont press high, they press when its appropriate, quite a big difference.
We press in some games and dont in other games, it all depends on what the opposition are doing. Pressing against teams which have a defensive setup which has a view to counter attacking is a dangerous thing to do.
I agree. I hope we get it back next season.
Maybe we should try and press like this team? First clip and 2.35 being prime examples.
http://youtu.be/M5YLG57a2GE
http://youtu.be/M5YLG57a2GE
You mean ... the other teams half?
In The Methodological Basis of the Development of Training Models, the book he co-wrote with Anatoliy Zelentsov, Lobanovskyi lays out three different kinds of pressing. There is full-pressing, when opponents are hounded deep in their own half; half-pressing, when opponents are closed down only as they cross halfway; and there is false pressing, when a team pretends to press, but doesn't – that is, one player would close down the man in possession, while the others would sit off.
Particularly against technically gifted opponents, Lobanovskyi would have his sides perform the full-press early to rattle them, after which false pressing would often be enough to induce a mistake – and often, of course, his side would be comfortably ahead after the period of full-pressing.
Particularly against technically gifted opponents, Lobanovskyi would have his sides perform the full-press early to rattle them, after which false pressing would often be enough to induce a mistake – and often, of course, his side would be comfortably ahead after the period of full-pressing.
Not gonna give Jonathan Wilson the credit for that? You old plagiarist you.
You can "encourage" teams to move wide for example before pressing. Ideally teams prefer to press once they have the opposition in tighter areas. That can be in a number of different areas of the pitch but dependent on whats appropriate at the time.
I think "full pressing" as pete refers to here is a very useful tactic agains teams coming to OT, and also against supposed lesser sides away from home - it helps box them in and around their own area, and gives a sense of superiority. It is very psychologically draining to be put under the kosh from the get go.
Obviously it's implausible to do so for 90 minutes, but why not start the first 15 minutes or so of each half pressing high up the pitch? It only adds variety to our defensive approach, and makes us harder to read.
Obviously it's implausible to do so for 90 minutes, but why not start the first 15 minutes or so of each half pressing high up the pitch? It only adds variety to our defensive approach, and makes us harder to read.
It's actually an good article. A tactics nerd waxking lyrical about Arsenal getting demolished by Barca (which is, presumably, why pete didn't provide a link )
It confirms that there's nothing remotely new or innovative about pressing the opposition but includes an interesting theory about why Barca are so effective at winning the ball back.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/apr/06/question-pressing-crucial-modern-game
)It confirms that there's nothing remotely new or innovative about pressing the opposition but includes an interesting theory about why Barca are so effective at winning the ball back.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/apr/06/question-pressing-crucial-modern-game
Arsenal used to play a high pressing game a couple of seasons back, and were very good at it. So it definitely can be done in the Premier League.
Bingo
During the pre-season tour last year I noticed that we'd started to use a style not to far away from that of Barca, and whilst we played only the Barca second string in the US it worked well against them. For the Community Shield we started off as "normal" and found ourselves behind at half time, the introduction of Cleverley to pair up with Anderson, kicked started the fight back, but we went back to our own "Barca" type of game.
Those early games with Anderson and Cleverley along with the young legs of Welbeck, Rooney, Young etc, helped, and the system worked. Once Cleverley got injured and Carrick came back into the team, you could see that system fall away. I'm not saying that Carrick isn't good enough, he's just not suited to that system, and I think it effected Anderson's form as well. Of course with Scholes coming back we reverted back to our tried and trusted methods, and though ultimately we didn't win anything it was still on the whole a success. The debate over Anderson's future will rage on, but I for one after the pre-season and early season form felt that SAF was looking at the Anderson/Cleverley partnership to be the main axis for the team this year and that style of play would take us to where ever. Injuries and form stopped that, it's now questionable over Anderson's future perhaps, but with Scholes back for another year, I'm not sure that we'll see a return to that tactic again soon.
Those early games with Anderson and Cleverley along with the young legs of Welbeck, Rooney, Young etc, helped, and the system worked. Once Cleverley got injured and Carrick came back into the team, you could see that system fall away. I'm not saying that Carrick isn't good enough, he's just not suited to that system, and I think it effected Anderson's form as well. Of course with Scholes coming back we reverted back to our tried and trusted methods, and though ultimately we didn't win anything it was still on the whole a success. The debate over Anderson's future will rage on, but I for one after the pre-season and early season form felt that SAF was looking at the Anderson/Cleverley partnership to be the main axis for the team this year and that style of play would take us to where ever. Injuries and form stopped that, it's now questionable over Anderson's future perhaps, but with Scholes back for another year, I'm not sure that we'll see a return to that tactic again soon.
It was interesting that when Hernandez first broke into the team, he pressed opponents at full-pelt, all the time, everywhere on the pitch. Now he puts in a token chase or two, but broadly speaking stays in his position more when we lose the ball.
It should be obscene to talk about Zelentsov and Lobnanovskyi this early in the morning. The tactical system they developed is the closest thing to mechanical perfection ever dreamt up by football brains. Generations ahead of their time. I know little about how coaches are trained in England but Zelentsov and Lobanovskyi's work should be obligatory for anyone graduating from the F.A.'s new national football centre at Burton.
How Valeriy Lobanovskyi's appliance of science won hearts and trophies
Interesting? Perhaps. Obvious. Certainly. The psychological impact of playing Barcelona cannot be underestimated. If you can find them look at the unforced error stats of our players from Wembley 2011 (this being naturally less painful than just getting a video of the game and watching them individually). People used to say of Man Utd that teams were beaten in the tunnel before they walked out onto the Old Trafford pitch and its certainly true that when people play Barcelona fear and anxiety can make the usually most composed players turn into jitter bugs.It's actually an good article. A tactics nerd waxking lyrical about Arsenal getting demolished by Barca (which is, presumably, why pete didn't provide a link
It confirms that there's nothing remotely new or innovative about pressing the opposition but includes an interesting theory about why Barca are so effective at winning the ball back.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/apr/06/question-pressing-crucial-modern-game
Correct. With Carrick and Scholes, for that matter, its not possible to replicate the dynamic all action midfield play we tried to employ at the start of the season. Carrick and the Scholes of today are built for a more methodical game where its a little bit like chess, we attack and withdraw and regroup then you attack and withdraw and regroup. They both prefer to have the time to build up a tempo and a rhythm and then move the ball forward gradually. Scholes is better at playing a higher tempo game than Carrick cos he has better close control but even he struggles against sides that come at us these days and that was seen away at Spurs etc.etc. Fact is Scholes is no longer 21 and Carrick was never that sort of player anyway.
For someone like Carrick who likes to take a touch and evaluate the situation before choosing the surest route to keeping the ball the full press is like kryptonite because he doesn't get the time to calm the tempo and pick the best option. Contrast with someone like Cleverley who often times wont even take a touch and will try to break the press by passing the ball between two on rushing players and then make an option to receive it by following the trajectory of the ball e.g.
I also think that's why Cleverley and Carrick don't work very well together. From the time they played together in pre-season last year to now I've never seen Cleverley and Carrick gel. The reason, I feel, is that Cleverley shows no fear of taking the ball when marked. He will often show for the ball but in close proximity to opposition players and when he plays with Carrick, Carrick will simply go elsewhere because he would prefer to choose the safer pass than gamble on Cleverley's ability to beat the marker and keep the ball moving.
Its a difference in perspective. Carrick makes the right choices evaluated in the cold light of day. Cleverley banks on himself to be able to play out of a cul-de-sac. When it comes off for Carrick we dominate possession and we look great, when it doesn't we look ponderous and occasionally he plays very dangerous lose balls. When it comes off for Cleverley we destroy teams and win 8-2, when it doesn't we concede tons of chances.
Lol bit of an oversimplification at the end there. You could say when it comes off for carrick we beat teams 7-1 in the champions league by that logic.
Generally speaking Italian teams play to Carrick's strengths. They are less inclined to go hunting the ball when they lose possession and more likely to drop off and regroup to weather the counter. Roma didn't do enough early on to stop Carrick, in particular, playing e.g. the first goal. Roma never tried to press in the same way that say Bilbao did and that's how we managed to crush them. The speed of our passing on the counter caught them while they were trying to get back into their lines. While we were moving the ball forward they were still in the process of taking their shape, we didn't allow them time to set themselves and they were ruthlessly exploited as a result.
Ok but then you could say that when we beat Arsenal 8-2, arsenal played into our hands by playing an incredibly naive style and didn't change it till it was to late. Even then they created a load of chances and could easily have scored more. Personally I would say the Roma game was much more impressive than the arsenal game.
Either way I think if carrick has the right partner he can deal with pressing football. With scholes there's just no chance of being able to deal with it against a good team. Cleverley and scholes would suffer probably more from being pressed quickly. Dealing with teams that press is all about who's around you. Like I said with slower players like scholes you're gonna struggle. Technically lacking players like park are going to suffer and personally IMO Valencia suffers as well because f his lack of versatility on the ball. The other issue is that too often we don't get a third man to drop in to the middle or if we do it's a player not suited to it such as park.
That's what these teams that constantly press have, players close to each other. In general we have two midfielders who are a fair distance away from the wingers and the two strikers. Most other teams play much more narrower and so are able to not only press more effectively but also are able to deal with pressing better.
As for carrick and clev as a combo I think it could work. Earlier on people were saying that clev and ando were facilitating a new style of football but that wasn't true. We've seen one touch attacking football before then and we've seen it this season without them. Carrick is excellent at one touch, but because he'a so often having to play as the main defensive player and cover for others who either don't have the legs or don't defend well, we don't get to see it. Likewise he can deal with pressing football but he needs the right partner and we as a team need to be quicker at adapting to it by getting a third guy in there and the wingers to come a bit narrower.
Either way I think if carrick has the right partner he can deal with pressing football. With scholes there's just no chance of being able to deal with it against a good team. Cleverley and scholes would suffer probably more from being pressed quickly. Dealing with teams that press is all about who's around you. Like I said with slower players like scholes you're gonna struggle. Technically lacking players like park are going to suffer and personally IMO Valencia suffers as well because f his lack of versatility on the ball. The other issue is that too often we don't get a third man to drop in to the middle or if we do it's a player not suited to it such as park.
That's what these teams that constantly press have, players close to each other. In general we have two midfielders who are a fair distance away from the wingers and the two strikers. Most other teams play much more narrower and so are able to not only press more effectively but also are able to deal with pressing better.
As for carrick and clev as a combo I think it could work. Earlier on people were saying that clev and ando were facilitating a new style of football but that wasn't true. We've seen one touch attacking football before then and we've seen it this season without them. Carrick is excellent at one touch, but because he'a so often having to play as the main defensive player and cover for others who either don't have the legs or don't defend well, we don't get to see it. Likewise he can deal with pressing football but he needs the right partner and we as a team need to be quicker at adapting to it by getting a third guy in there and the wingers to come a bit narrower.
yeah and having the best player in the world and vidic also helps. Plus scholes being 32, rio 28 and Carrick and evra 25 ... That team would have destroyed almost anyone, we maybe would have beaten Milan that year (bloody injury crisis). So comparing it to that joke set up SAF put up for the europa against bilbao, to the 06/07 team is going a little to far IMO. How can you compare a full strength starting xi then, to a not full strength starting xi now?
