Protest at Old Trafford

MadDogg

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No offense, but this is oversimplified and plain wrong. If you really believe that policing is just about guarding the interests of a ruling elite alone then you're both stupid and paranoid. There's absolutely nothing to be gained by tarring all police with the 'corrupt and cowardly' brush.
Individual police may not look at it that way, but police as an institution (and pretty much the entire legal system) is set up to protect the rich and their property, above the middle class and their property, ahead of the poor and what property they manage to have. The richer and more powerful you are, the more you will be protected.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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But you saying you won’t watch games on tv even though you do will make all the difference.

We need you out there spreading your message, social media, tv, anything and everything. Forget what happened yesterday you might not watch the game on Thursday, Glazers are good as gone.
Now who is being facetious?
 

united_99

Takes pleasure in other people's pain
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This anti-matchgoing support rhetoric really winds me up.

Let's look at this from the other angle and I'll do so using my own personal experience so you don't get offended as a non match going supporter.

I live in the UK and watch Orlando City in the MLS. I first saw them play in 2010 long before they became an MLS club. Since then I go to on average one game a season but I stay up to watch every match online with most games kicking off around 12:30am UK time.

Why the feck should my opinion on anything to do with the club be as important as one of their season ticket holders? I would never dream that my view on anything to do with the club is as important to the owners as those who go every week, those who follow them thousands of miles across the US or even those who only attend 5-6 matches a season? I am - quite rightly - at the bottom of the pile in importance of support to the club.

They are far more important supporters to Orlando City than I am, and yes quite frankly; they are definitely "better" supporters than I am because they are there week in week out and trying to pretend otherwise would be incredibly arrogant of me.
interesting take on it. Your pretty brave to articulate it on this forum! But it’s true.

who is more important a fan that is a season ticket holder and goes to most games, paying £2/3k per season for the privilege.

Or one that watches streams of matches and never visits the club? That’s not to say all fans aren’t important, but clearly some are more important than others.
Maybe they are more important to the club because their money goes directly to the club. Also most are just „lucky“ to have been born / raised in Manchester (unless they moved to Manchester just for United).

Then take me for example, there have been seasons when I watched United at OT 2-3 times per season (on other occasions I can’t manage to go there for two years running: can’t take that many days off work „just“ for United, sometimes I don’t even get tickets for a match even if I could fly on those dates, etc.).
When I attend a game: I get an expensive match ticket, then only once my ticket is confirmed through a ballot or something which I find out only a couple of weeks in advance I can book an expensive flight at short notice. I then pay the hotel night(s). If it is a CL game I also take 1-2 days off work.
So at the end I am paying a similar amount just to watch United only for a couple of times, a season ticket holder pays for the entire season. Obviously the difference is that my money (and time) goes to United, Hotels, airlines, etc. whereas a season ticket holder only invests in the club. And yes he can be there every week obviously.
So I can understand some fans claiming they are more important, but this so called importance is then also based at least partly on luck and / or how „rich“ someone is.
 

Ødegaard

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The cnut who broke the door for the elevator used by disabled people...
What I'd like to write would rightfully get me warnings.
 
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Maybe they are more important to the club because their money goes directly to the club. Also most are just „lucky“ to have been born / raised in Manchester (unless they moved to Manchester just for United).

Then take me for example, there have been seasons when I watched United at OT 2-3 times per season (on other occasions I can’t manage to go there for two years running: can’t take that many days off work „just“ for United, sometimes I don’t even get tickets for a match even if I could fly on those dates, etc.).
When I attend a game: I get an expensive match ticket, then only once my ticket is confirmed through a ballot or something which I find out only a couple of weeks in advance I can book an expensive flight at short notice. I then pay the hotel night(s). If it is a CL game I also take 1-2 days off work.
So at the end I am paying a similar amount just to watch United only for a couple of times, a season ticket holder pays for the entire season. Obviously the difference is that my money (and time) goes to United, Hotels, airlines, etc. whereas a season ticket holder only invests in the club. And yes he can be there every week obviously.
So I can understand some fans claiming they are more important, but this so called importance is then also based at least partly on luck and / or how „rich“ someone is.
there’s no doubt money and location have an impact.

Its always been the case at every club that season ticket holders will have a more valid opinion/ voice than other fans.
 

Withnail

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So the not nuts solution is for 200 fans to disrupt every game at OT until it's postponed.

Right and I'm the one living in a fantasy land...
You're being extremely disingenuous.

There was a mostly peaceful protests attended by thousands of people who didn't engage in violence or trespassing.

Why are you reducing the protest down to the actions of the minority?
 

Sandikan

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You're being extremely disingenuous.

There was a mostly peaceful protests attended by thousands of people who didn't engage in violence or trespassing.

Why are you reducing the protest down to the actions of the minority?
Probably because it's the minority action that has caused the issues, and an outcome many on here seem to be applauding as some kind of genius.
 

Sandikan

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I'm not sure. That poster seems to think a better protest is to get everyone in the world to turn off their tellies.
It's a very difficult situation for the fans.
We've seen that green and gold campaign didn't do enough, and then it settled, until this latest greed grab attempt with the super league.

You simply don't force out billionaire owners though. Especially not ones who live in a different continent.
Arsenal have been trying for years and got nowhere, and their club isn't worth anywhere near the same amount.

Anyone with the sort of money needed will either be a similar hard nosed business man who will want as much profit, or be some royal family from a regime seen as horrific.
Could a collective put the money together? It'd still need a lot of super powerful wealthy individuals, and then you'd have even more fun working out how they run things.

I bet even the Glazers are a bit puzzled about what their end game is.
 

PedroMendez

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So that's 18m per year on dividends in the last 5 years. Now, while that is exactly 18m per year more than what the Glazers deserve for their work at United, it still highlights the problem: namely, that any potential owner who is looking for a return on investment is likely to be not much different to the Glazers.

I mean it's what, a 4bn investment at this point? With 20m a year in dividends, you're looking at 200 years to break even. So our options are becoming a vanity/sportswashing project or there's the impossible dream, that a few thousand passionate and dedicated fans put up the money somehow. And it's hard to see that happening. Or, of course, there's the third option: another leveraged buyout by a different Glazer family.

I agree with the protests - I'm just very pessimistic about what will happen even if they turn out to be successful.

The Glazers took over 2005, so this calculation is missing the first ~5 years and the total sum is probably a fair bit higher. Looking back, I don't think United fans have to differentiate between the cost for debt service and dividends, when evaluating the Glazers as owners. What they Glazers did would have ruined any other (english) club. Its testament to how far United was ahead of anyone else. All in all they have been very luck to encounter so little resistance over the years.

It's fair to wonder about the alternatives with or without the Glazers. Not all options would be an improvement, but the Glazers aren't particularly good at their job. I think fans underestimate their influence, but it needs sustained pressure (not just a few people for a few games) and a clear message.
 

Withnail

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It's a very difficult situation for the fans.
We've seen that green and gold campaign didn't do enough, and then it settled, until this latest greed grab attempt with the super league.

You simply don't force out billionaire owners though. Especially not ones who live in a different continent.
Arsenal have been trying for years and got nowhere, and their club isn't worth anywhere near the same amount.

Anyone with the sort of money needed will either be a similar hard nosed business man who will want as much profit, or be some royal family from a regime seen as horrific.
Could a collective put the money together? It'd still need a lot of super powerful wealthy individuals, and then you'd have even more fun working out how they run things.

I bet even the Glazers are a bit puzzled about what their end game is.
Oh I'd agree there. Anyone who can afford it, you wouldn't want really.

Unless the govt force through some kind of 50+1 but I'm not sure how they'd do that or how it could even work in reality. The logistics seem insurmountable.
 
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It's a very difficult situation for the fans.
We've seen that green and gold campaign didn't do enough, and then it settled, until this latest greed grab attempt with the super league.

You simply don't force out billionaire owners though. Especially not ones who live in a different continent.
Arsenal have been trying for years and got nowhere, and their club isn't worth anywhere near the same amount.

Anyone with the sort of money needed will either be a similar hard nosed business man who will want as much profit, or be some royal family from a regime seen as horrific.
Could a collective put the money together? It'd still need a lot of super powerful wealthy individuals, and then you'd have even more fun working out how they run things.

I bet even the Glazers are a bit puzzled about what their end game is.
Good post, there no easy fixes here. The vast majority of us want the Glazers out, but we need a strategy to achieve that, then, if we do get them out, who buys the club from them?

I still think the only way to force them out is to hurt them in the pockets; money is all they care about. I would propose a full boycott with a parallel strategy of peaceful direct action. We will have to starve them out in the end.

Then who buys it and how would the club be run? There's a huge issue.
 

Isotope

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At least the protest did put the Glazers in bad spotlight all over the world. Their skin may have been as thick as Donald Trump, but nobody likes to be in worldwide media as a villain. They need to put out some response.
 

croadyman

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Talksport doing a number on anyone criticising The Glazers right now
Yeah they had a couple text in to the Durham & O Hara show mentioning about the fact they haven't invested a penny, they read it out and then unsurprisingly brushed it quickly under the carpet because can't have views that don't fit the narrative
 

Marching

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I get that pragmatically he perhaps should have but if that is the end result of acting peacefully at a protest it does somewhat beg a question don't you think?
Are we really arguing that a 50 year old overweight guy being shoved to the road for standing his ground was ok?
He was told to move so should have moved. The other morons stood around with him managed to do so.
 

Pickle85

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Individual police may not look at it that way, but police as an institution (and pretty much the entire legal system) is set up to protect the rich and their property, above the middle class and their property, ahead of the poor and what property they manage to have. The richer and more powerful you are, the more you will be protected.
I think it's fair to say that the privileged are better protected, agreed. The system is far from perfect, but to call police cowardly is out of order imo.
 

pierrethesnack

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This anti-matchgoing support rhetoric really winds me up.

Let's look at this from the other angle and I'll do so using my own personal experience so you don't get offended as a non match going supporter.

I live in the UK and watch Orlando City in the MLS. I first saw them play in 2010 long before they became an MLS club. Since then I go to on average one game a season but I stay up to watch every match online with most games kicking off around 12:30am UK time.

Why the feck should my opinion on anything to do with the club be as important as one of their season ticket holders? I would never dream that my view on anything to do with the club is as important to the owners as those who go every week, those who follow them thousands of miles across the US or even those who only attend 5-6 matches a season? I am - quite rightly - at the bottom of the pile in importance of support to the club.

They are far more important supporters to Orlando City than I am, and yes quite frankly; they are definitely "better" supporters than I am because they are there week in week out and trying to pretend otherwise would be incredibly arrogant of me.
Local fans who actually go to matches and make up the visible fanbase are obviously more important than fans in other countries. That's not a mean or arrogant thing to say, it just is that way. I'd certainly consider myself more important if I was part of my local club in that way, and it's no different even if your local club happens to be United.
 

Utd heap

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Local fans who actually go to matches and make up the visible fanbase are obviously more important than fans in other countries. That's not a mean or arrogant thing to say, it just is that way. I'd certainly consider myself more important if I was part of my local club in that way, and it's no different even if your local club happens to be United.
Completely agree mate.

All are welcome and everyone has their reasons but locals / regulars have to be seen as the most vital
 

alexthelion

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Should've been done long, long time ago. Like I always say that clubs like Real Madrid/Barcelona/Bayern would never allow their teams to get treated like that by their owners, this is what I mean.

Shame it happens now when we play our best football post Fergie. Ole and the players don't deserve to get caught in that shitstorm. Should have happened long time ago during the LVG days.
Not been watching the news lately, I gather.
 

TMDaines

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Nah mate, can barely afford the ticket prices but lucky you that you can. Loved every second of my visit to OT. But again, well done, you can afford to go so must be a better "fan".

Guess all those millions of fans we have globally, who adore the club, are worse fans than you because you go to the ground to watch.

So arrogant.
This is like arguing that my views on local Neapolitan politics and electoral issues are just as worthy as those of local people, because it is my favourite city and I love to get any opportunity to revisit Naples and the local areas.
 

big rons sovereign

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So you have no answer. Protest happened, game was postponed, security guard was assaulted and the effect of this protest was....people will know about the protest and the message.

The message being, United dislike their owners. Great. Now what?
You've gotta be on a wum. Nobody can be this blinkered.
Everybody can see what's going on, everybody except you apparently.
It's like talking to a brick wall.
 

Glorio

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u think today was violent? how come? this was a statement and if Roy Keane, Gaz and Scholesy are finally speaking with us, then it’s like Roy said today “this is just the start”
time for people like u to pay attention! Glazers have taken 2 BILLION POUNDS away from our club that should have gone to our training base, academy, Old Trafford and our squads over the years!!
Glazers have done more damage to OT than people did today
Let's try this again ... So your solution is to turn the demonstration violent? Against who pray tell? As violence implies there's a victim involved. Is it against staff? They're not the Glazers; The Police? They're not the Glazers either! So tell me how it makes an iota of sense for the crowd to be violent toward innocent people who left their families for work while the Glazers are sitting cozy in their penthouses.
 

Utd heap

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Let's try this again ... So your solution is to turn the demonstration violent? Against who pray tell? As violence implies there's a victim involved. Is it against staff? They're not the Glazers; The Police? They're not the Glazers either! So tell me how it makes an iota of sense for the crowd to be violent toward innocent people who left their families for work while the Glazers are sitting cozy in their penthouses.
Nothing you have said in plain English is wrong.

But you are looking for things to cry about.

What do you want? Manchester turned out. A beautiful day.
 

Glorio

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Nothing you have said in plain English is wrong.

But you are looking for things to cry about.

What do you want? Manchester turned out. A beautiful day.
I'm not crying about anything at all. I'm saying do turn out in numbers, make a shed load of noise, cause a nuisance, stand your ground even, but resorting to violence is definitely crossing a line, and moreover, is misdirected as the guilty party is not even about.
 

Denis79

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So you have no answer. Protest happened, game was postponed, security guard was assaulted and the effect of this protest was....people will know about the protest and the message.

The message being, United dislike their owners. Great. Now what?
To stay quiet is to approve.
 

copen1945

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This game should be rescheduled as a seven game series, just like in NBA, to be played in Boston and Tempa Bay. Nothing will please the two sets of Americans more.