For Ole supporters, it is wait until the season is over to judge him. It is a good argument. But then they say that the team progressed under his management. I do not understand the logic of this? Jose's last season he was 2nd. His previous season he won the EL and the League Cup. Ole has not won anything yet. Jose got us into the CL during his two full seasons here. So why is it a progress under Ole when he has not won anything yet?
Pundits refusal to criticise Ole
- Thread starter Schmeichel's Cartwheel
- Start date
I don’t understand. Wasn’t that the kind of thing we keep seeing? They even believe Arteta is set to succeed more than Ole at United and yet, people think he’s not criticized?
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Whenever I glimpse the football forum and see this thread, I always have a big chuckle.
Anyway if you like to see how managers aren't criticized, just check today's MOTD. The talking point after Arsenal's game was "Are the players letting Arteta down again". "their bigger players need to step up" and literally nothing about Arteta's actual managing capabilities.
The lack of criticism from pundits re arteta,Lampard and even pep this season is astounding. Keane got flak for pulling Cahill up in his praise of arteta a lot of weeks back. Seems he wasn't too far off.
Oh and we didn't last season? Our best players were Pogba / Rashford / Martial and all were out for long stretches and we were playing with Daniel James and Pereira in the side. They had basically an injury free season last year, so things are just evened out a bit now.
Again, this is all irrelevant. Pick a metric you would evaluate Nagelsmann or Poch by if they were to come here and take control of this side. For me, it's points and Ole's been doing well enough on that regard.
Context doesnt matter. It's all about getting Ole out.
They dont say what they want to hear which is he is a PE teacher.
Why did you ignore the posts that replied on your ridiculous comparison about the first 100 games of Ole and "Caf Darling"
Klopp ?I responded elsewhere. You can slice by all of 2020 when Klopp had a CL winning side and Ole had a rebuilding job with United. Records are still fairly similar but that is apparently because Pool won the title already so they took their foot off the pedal last year and had injuries this year.Why did you ignore the posts that replied on your ridiculous comparison about the first 100 games of Ole and "Caf Darling"
I guess to close it out:
- I'm not religiously Ole in / out. I just form my opinion based on how the team plays while keeping the bigger picture in mind (e.g., if Bruno gets injured now and our season goes to shit, I won't blame Ole)
- For me, the target is to get a very comfortable top four and push for a title challenge this year. We had a 33 point difference between league winners and us the last two seasons. We have to narrow that to ~10 points come end of season. I think the squad is capable of that and if we don't, Ole in my book has to leave even if he gets us 4th. I think other managers can pull that off.
- Next season should be a title challenge.
- Ideally we should score more goals than our last 3 seasons while we do this. We've had our share of excuses for not being as free scoring as City / Liverpool but beyond a RW, the excuses are running a bit thin.
Last edited:
Do pundits ever openly criticise a manager? Genuine question.
No I'm talking about comparing the first 100 games for both and saying Ole had better record in his first 100 games than Klopp, throwing all context out of the window. Don't shift goalposts because you don't have response on this ok ?
Any by the way Klopp is the one who made Liverpool a "CL winning side".
I genuinely don't understand what you're saying. Ole does have a better record than Klopp for the first 100 games. If you think that's because Pool were shit when he took charge, then compare things starting from when Pool were not shit (i.e., Klopp in charge of a CL winning side).
Yes.. but recruitment is a pretty big deal. They've gotten their moneyball transfer approach fairly well in place when Klopp came in and he's not really in charge of transfers there. They got Mane / Salah / Robertson thanks to that.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/22/magazine/soccer-data-liverpool.html
Not as much and they'd never really target ex players that they shared a pitch with.
You said Ole had better record in his first 100 games than "Caf darling" Klopp, that's my response :
Klopp did far more in his first 2 years at Liverpool than Ole, and with a worse team. Comparing win percentage only throws context out of the window."Caf darling"
Klopp in his first 2 years reached 2 finals, Europe League and League Cup and got top 4 with 76 points. By the end of his second full season he also reached a Champions League final and got another top 4 with 75 points.
We are now 2 years with Ole in charge and he had bottled 3 semi finals and a CL group, and finished top 4 with 66 points.
Win percentage is a terrible way of comparing managers and doesn't show the full picture.
Not to mention Ole actually inherited a much better a squad than the joke of a team that Klopp inherited. Klopp inherited a team whose main striker was Benteke and the always injured Sturridge, and finished 6th the previous season, closing it with an embarrassing 6-1 loss to Stoke. The likes of Sterling and Suarez who were a main reason for the league challenge 2 years earlier were sold and they replaced them with ridiculously terrible business like Lambert. Ole inherited a team who finished 2nd the previous season with 8 points and was just in an off form thanks to Mourinho having a meltdown.
I'm waiting for response on my reply. Not really interested in any other subdiscussions.
I thought so, its fairly rare for pundits to criticise any manager. Our fans think it's something personal for Ole and the Fergie-boys-club but its across the board and all managers/coaches.
Maybe the thread should be changed to:
"Pundits Refusal to Criticise Any Manager"
Ole gets enough stick in the media so it's good that he has some people that stand by him 'cos most of the fecking fans don't, even when he does well.
What far more? And why do we keep saying that Liverpool squad was that bad? While you keep saying our players just had a "form" issue. Wow... why try to force the trait like that?
Our players were considered s*** during that Jose 3rd season. We came from far. It was really bad. I think everyone was reacting very strongly at that time.
And when I compare the results, I don't understand the fuss.
Klopp took apparently charge around Oct? And this is his year 1 result.
The transfers IN/OUT are based on the wiki and it's not a great info as they just include everyone and our clubs in general tend to release a huge number of youngsters, but maybe we try to focus on some of the key players by name.
For Ole, he took charge around Dec, if I recall correctly.
| Year 1 | Klopp | Ole |
|---|---|---|
| EPL | 8th | 6th |
| FA Cup | 4R | QF |
| League Cup | Final | 3R |
| Europa League | Final | |
| Champions League | QF | |
| Transfer IN | 8 | 4 |
| Transfer OUT | 9 | 14 |
Looks like the big OUT for Klopp were Gerrard and Sterling (occurred before he came on, obviously).
I'd say the meaningful IN were Gomez, Milner, Firmino, Clyne, Benteke.
He still uses Gomez, Milner and Firmino in some capacity so these are meaningful players.
For Ole, the big OUT were maybe Carrick, Blind and Fellaini. He did release Fellaini in Jan.
The meaningful IN were Dalot and Fred.
I look at the league, it's 8th vs 6th.
FA Cup: Ole went further.
League Cup: Klopp went further.
Europa League: Klopp did reach the final while Ole got eliminated in the QF of the CL.
That's nice for Klopp, but I don't think we had a team to challenge for the CL, when even SAF teams were struggling in it as proven by the # of CL we have.
Yet QF is not too bad, even if there was a bit of luck.
| Year 2 | Klopp | Ole |
|---|---|---|
| EPL | 4th | 3rd |
| FA Cup | 4R | SF |
| League Cup | SF | SF |
| Europa League | SF | |
| Champions League | ||
| Transfer IN | 6 | 5 |
| Transfer OUT | 16 | 20 |
For Klopp, the big OUT were maybe Enrique, Toure, Skrtel, Allen, Benteke and Ballotelli.
The meaningful IN were Matip, Mane, Wijnaldum. And Karius.
For Ole, the big OUT were maybe Herrera, Valencia, Lukaku, Darmian, Young.
The meaningful IN were James, AWB, Maguire. And Bruno in Jan.
I look at the league, it's 4th vs 3rd.
FA Cup: Ole went further since it's the SF.
League Cup: Tie at SF.
Europa League: SF for Ole.
Since Klopp didn't play any EU competition, I will consider his season easier fitness wise, relative to other teams at that moment.
I don't feel like last season was such a disaster results wise.
We can talk about many things that went South but we managed to steady the ship.
I also want to say that at this point, both managers brought in a certain number of players.
Klopp: Gomez, Milner, Firmino, Matip, Mane, Wijnaldum.
Ole: Fred, James, AWB, Maguire, Bruno.
We know Firmino, Mane, Wijnaldum and even Milner, Matip or Gomez are a strong part of Klopp's teams.
Same for Ole in regard to Fred, AWB, Maguire and Bruno. James is more debatable but we used him a lot and he's still with us.
| Year 3 | Klopp | Ole |
|---|---|---|
| EPL | 4th | 8th? |
| FA Cup | 4R | 3R |
| League Cup | 3R | QF |
| Europa League | R16? | |
| Champions League | Final | |
| Transfer IN | 6 | 4 |
| Transfer OUT | 16 | 17 |
For Klopp, the big OUT were maybe Sakho and Coutinho.
The meaningful IN were Salah, Robertson and VVD. Maybe we can add Oxlad-Chamberlain.
For Ole, the big OUT were maybe Sanchez and Smalling.
The meaningful IN were VdB, Telles, Cavani. We have Pellestrini and Diallo in Jan, not sure what role they will play so I will ignore the youngsters for now.
I look at the league, it's 4th vs 8th for now but we could be 4th as well with the game in hand.
FA Cup: Klopp went one round further so that should be easy to match or do better for us. Opposition is Wolves, I think.
League Cup: Ole is QF so we are doing better.
Champions League: Klopp did very well here for reaching the final.
We missed the CL chance, that's for sure. Yet, I look at Liverpool group at that time, they had: Sevilla, Spartak Moscow, Maribor.
We had PSG (final), Leipzig (semi final), Istanbul. And we did miss our chances, but we did win important games as well.
I am pretty sure with Sevilla, Spartak Moscow and Maribor, we would have qualified as well.
Let's talk about the transfers now. At this point, both managers have recruited:
Klopp: Gomez, Milner, Firmino, Matip, Mane, Wijnaldum, Salah, Robertson, VVD, Oxlad-Chamberlain.
Ole: Fred, James, AWB, Maguire, Bruno, VdB, Telles, Cavani.
10 players for Klopp, it's almost a whole squad, and you have some big names that have participated in their success later: Firmino, Mane, Wijnaldum, Salah, Robertson, VVD.
8 players for Ole, and the key names are currently: Fred, AWB, Maguire, Bruno. Maybe VdB and Cavani will be part of it, but we are talking about 6 key players vs 4 at this point.
Even with that less structural change of the team, yes, we should try to improve on our last season and all.
I do think that if we try to reach the final of the EL and maybe win it, and try to do a little bit better than 4th in the league (3rd?), that's a better performance than the 3rd year of Klopp still. Because we have less key players introduced yet.
Nevertheless, that's 3 seasons then. 100 games covers those 2.5, 3 seasons. Since results are for me kind of comparable, I do not understand why the records from Ole should just be ignored. Btw, not a good record per se, just a record that is comparable to Klopp first 100 games, that were also not great in hindsight. But they were building something, apparently.
In short, we need to finish that 3rd season and give our best with Ole and see how we are in the process. You know, that process everyone, including Bruno, keeps talking about... maybe we should trust the lads?
For fun, I looked at the year 4 of Klopp.
| Year 4 | Klopp |
|---|---|
| EPL | 2nd |
| FA Cup | 3R |
| League Cup | 3R |
| Europa League | |
| Champions League | Winner |
| Transfer IN | 4 |
| Transfer OUT | 7 |
For Klopp, the big OUT were maybe Can and Solanko.
The meaningful IN were Alisson, Shakiri, Fabinho, Keita.
With that, his team is now:
Klopp: Gomez, Milner, Firmino, Matip, Mane, Wijnaldum, Salah, Robertson, VVD, Oxlad-Chamberlain, Alisson, Shakiri, Fabinho, Keita.
That's 14 players, including some of the very key players that help him win - 8.
And that allows him to do 2nd in the league and win the CL.
Yes it's a nice performance.
But I feel like if we trust our own process, I don't really see why we would not be in an upward trajectory as well.
Again, we only have 4 key players changed, yet.
We may not need 4 more, I mean, we chose a different path of trying to improve some of our players as well.
But still, we probably need 2 more.
The point I am trying to make is that, for me, we are following a plan, and of course, we were a bit unlucky with the CL but we should continue on that plan with Ole. It seems rationale, and well designed to try to address the years of difficulties we've been through post SAF.
And if the numbers say that the 100 games for Ole are better than those from Klopp, I can't see why that should be ignored.
To his credit (and I don't offer him much on the whole,) Tim Sherwood can be pretty blunt in his appraisal.
Ole was hammered after the Arsenal loss...The only pundits who are not criticising him are his ex-teammates, which is totally acceptable...also Keane and Gary recently said he needs to win a trophy and start controlling games before the season is finished.
So he has been criticised and also (rightly so) received some praise for the results, which have been good at times...he isn't perfect but it has not been a disaster.
So he has been criticised and also (rightly so) received some praise for the results, which have been good at times...he isn't perfect but it has not been a disaster.
That leaves out some context for me. Jose got second place but was neeeeeever really within touching distance of first place that season. In addition, De Gea was still in God mode at this point, which made a huge difference.
Mourinho’s EL trophy came at the price of a lopsided run-in to the season, where he clearly wasn’t trying to secure a top four spot. He also clearly didn’t really have the players playing for him anymore, and it was very obvious his short-sighted methods had run their course at United.
The situations are wildly different. Ole also took a hit in the short term by overseeing a squad clear-out that left us short on personnel, but which enabled us to start pulling in the same direction.
With Gary Neville and Roy Keane essentially saying dominate games or win a trophy this year, the criticism has properly started now. It is about time.
Well this isn't true at all.
Back during Mourinho 3rd and even 2nd season, the general notion here that the squad is very good and Mourinho is failing to get them to play better football than what's shown. When he was sacked and during the honeymoon period this belief became far stronger. Everyone at this time was believing Mourinho was the one holding the team back, not that quality was poor. Suddenly when the results went south at the end of the season people decided the squad was crap and needs a full rebuild ?
Results wise, I don't think there's any comparison between the squad Ole inherited in comparison to Klopp.
The squad Ole inherited was runner up in both league and Fa Cup last season. They got 81 points in the league. The squad Klopp inherited finished 6th the previous season with 62 points and got KOed in CL group stage to later get KOed in Europe League round 32.
Quality wise it's not comparable either. As I said, Klopp inherited a squad that had Benteke and always injured Sturridge as their main striker. They were a big joke of a team back then. People were mocking them for their terrible business, most worthy to mention is replacing Suarez with Lambert :
For a longer read, these are the players they invested in with Suarez' money :
https://www.skysports.com/football/...ed-the-money-from-luis-suarezs-barcelona-sale
Some terrible business that I bet United fans would lose their mind if any of them were on our radar. That's how a joke of a club Liverpool was at this point.
Feel free to check how much different his initial lineup was in comparison to the team that played the CL final to see how much things have changed for them :
https://talksport.com/football/5514...iverpool-everton-alisson-van-dijk-mane-salah/
These stats and comparisons are all nice work I appreciate but the end result of is :
Klopp reached 2 finals and progressed past his first CL group stage in his first 2 years in charge (went on to reach the final later).
Ole didn't reach a single final for us yet, bottled 3 semi finals and got KOed from a CL group stage in which he was leading at the start.
Klopp got top 4 in his first full season with 76 points.
Ole got top 4 in his first full season with 66 points.
So with every relevant metric Klopp in this period did more, he reached finals, progressed in CL to its final and got 10 more points in the league in his first full season, and yes, all this with mostly far worse team in general.
Finally, the win percentage thing means feck all when comparing managers and it just throws context out of the window, regardless of the ridiculous Ole vs Klopp comparisons anyway, unless you want to believe that Mourinho, Ole, LVG and Moyes were all better managers for Manchester United than Sir Matt Busby ? Because they all have higher win percentage for us than him. Feel free to check it yourself if you don't believe.
The win percentage doesn't show how many trophies you won, how many points you got, how many games you played and how many finals you reached. It shows nothing. It's a meaningless stat. Some clubs are also expected to win more than others. Sam Allardyce has a 100% win percentage with England!
This is a nightmare? Have you been sleeping since Ferguson retired? Things have been much worse than this.
You might as well also give us a comparative year by year breakdown of their careers from year 1 to year 10. Don't know why you guys keep bringing up Klopp but are always the first to run away from comparisons between their managerial talent or accolades, like that isn't the biggest difference between their credibility. I know for a fact by the same point in Klopp's stay Liverpool had started playing mouth watering football while we're still waiting for Ole to figure out how to set up a team to create chances from open play
So much time looking at metrics between who has done better over their first couple of years. Klopp had a massively successful run at Dortmund, let's not forget, and has much more experience. Ole got his first head coaching gig in 2013, Klopp 2001. It's not Zidane/Pep where you walk into a squad of world-beaters. Settle down!
But we didn't sack Jose when he was second? We gave him a new contract? Did you forget when we sacked the guy and what position were we in at that time? What is your point anyway? Ole progress is based on Jose third year no? Thats when he took over?
I genuinely think people here live in a vacuum. Loads of pundits and journalist criticize Ole. Ofcourse it's merited n all but it's bizarre that how you lot think that pundits don't criticize him.
Well without going into details about where they are pundits - I can easily mention 10 pundits who have criticized him: The main ones being Ince, Parker, Burley (who hates him), Hutchison (he is however more diplomatic than Burley), Steve Nicol - Gary Neville criticized him last week - and coming from him those were harsh Words considering he even defended Wenger when every Arsenal-fan wanted him out.
So what you are saying is simply not correct. But naturally when the majority of the pundits are fellow teammates - its a bit harder to slaughter him. But considering United play Sheffield United and Leeds (and a match against Burnley in hand) - maybe not everyone see the future of United quite as horrible as you do ?
Last edited:
I just love how you play with cherry picking stats/achievements to fit your narrative here.
In the same post you manage to say that win % means feck all, while you at the same time elevate Klopp's first full season getting "top 4" with 76 points and shit on Ole's first full season getting "top 4" with 66 points. While in reality Ole got 3rd and Klopp got 4th.
In the same post you manage to say that Ole "bottled" 3 semi finals in his first full season, while you failed to mention that Klopp got knocked out in 4th round of the FA-cup, "bottled" the semi in the League cup and didn't play in Europe in his first full season.
Can you see the lack of balance in your arguments? I doubt it. #agenda
Have they had similar starts at their current clubs in the PL? Yes. Does that mean that Ole will follow the same path of success in the future? No.
Ole might win trophies for/with us and me might not. It's impossible to know. Would I love to see him do it? Yes!
I want to see this season out and evaluate in the summer.
This seems to be about United pundits.
As if you’d criticise your mate and hound him out of his job on national tv though. Let’s apply some common sense to it!
I don’t get why people think they have to exactly echo their thoughts. They get slammed for criticising, and slammed for not anyway.
As if you’d criticise your mate and hound him out of his job on national tv though. Let’s apply some common sense to it!
I don’t get why people think they have to exactly echo their thoughts. They get slammed for criticising, and slammed for not anyway.
I keep seeing this but it misses the point he was sacked and rightly sacked at the end. He was never under threat of losing his job them first 2 seasons.
When he was doing well he wasn't under pressure. He won 2 trophies first season, and came 2nd his 2nd season, and then literally fell off a cliff in the 3rd, prob lowest I can remember us. Was so toxic but was rightly sacked.
Again what the relavance, if Ole completely lost the players and was snowballing down the league losing games in the league he be rightly sacked too.
They aren't even similar situations
I just disagreed with Ole acing every metric part when Jose has him beat on every metric.
Jose wasn't sacked for finishing 2nd or winning EL. He was sacked based on the last 4 months he was here.
Sorry but that is an absolutely nonsensical argument. When players in his team play badly it's Ole's fault due to "lack of coaching" and poor tactics but when they play well it's nothing to do with Ole and they're covering for his ineptitude.
How about:
Unfortunately for Klopp I can't help thinking that win % is very much down to Salah and Mane with a little bit of Van Dijk and Allison thrown in as well.
Or same argument with Fergie and Cantona/Keane/Yorke/Ronaldo/Van Persie etc.
All top teams have big players who produce individual moments of quality that are the difference between winning and dropping points. Giving those players a platform to produce top class performances is what a good manager does.
It's not as if the club signed Messi who has single handedly carried United to these results. Bruno was at Sporting and wasn't wanted by any other top teams, Rashford was playing terribly under Jose and Cavani was without a club.
Great post and systematically dealt with the agenda poster you responded to, but I just thought I'd correct you on one thing: Jose bought Fred, not Ole. So, Ole bought even less than you originally stated.
Isn't that exactly what you're doing? Look at the CL group and the subsequent KO ties that Liverpool had for their run to the final that season, and compare it to ours. 2017/18 Liverpool would have struggled to make it out of our group this year, and so too would 2018/19 Liverpool (as evidenced by their lucky escape out of the group containing Red Star, Napoli and PSG). @Gasolin's post provided all the context and rebutted your every single point and all you did was say "thanks, but I'm still right"?
Thanks, apologies, I didn't mean that he brought him himself. More that the team, in year 1, welcomed a player, who we can consider key. The definition of that being, for me at least, that a player is being used right now, and was not sold. It's really to see how the current XI + trusted subs were "selected", if you will.
We can see how Klopp dealt with it. We have had less "chance", but also some "luck" (I am thinking Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, maybe Scott or Shaw). Unfortunately, it's still a bit hit and miss for them but hopefully, they learn fast...er?
Ah gotcha, and agreed.
I am just saying that Jose had better metrics that Ole which was the claim of the person I was replying to.
But you do raise a really interesting question for me then. Who from that year 1 Liverpool team is still a "key" member of the current Liverpool squad that was built by Klopp?
We know that after year 3, so by year 4, he brought in 14 players, of which 8 can be considered key.
The players brought in were:
Gomez, Milner, Firmino, Matip, Mane, Wijnaldum, Salah, Robertson, VVD, Oxlad-Chamberlain, Alisson, Shakiri, Fabinho, Keita.
I am looking at the # of games and what I see is for the year 4 team:
| Player | Apps | Starts |
|---|---|---|
| Alisson | 51 | 51 |
| VVD | 50 | 50 |
| Salah | 52 | 49 |
| Mane | 50 | 49 |
| Robertson | 48 | 48 |
| Wijnaldum | 47 | 43 |
| Firmino | 48 | 39 |
| TAA | 40 | 38 |
| Milner | 45 | 31 |
| Fabinho | 41 | 30 |
| Henderson | 44 | 29 |
| Matip | 31 | 26 |
That's more or less the starting XI of a 4/3/3, and I think Milner/Henderson were kind of sharing the starts more or less.
But look at all those names! In the starting XI, he brought in 9.5 players!!! 9 if we don't count Milner.
TAA = promoted from his academy.
Henderson is the only player he uses for that team "as a starter" and he's more or less sharing it with Milner, based on # of starts.
If we have to compare, this is the year 3 apps / starts for Liverpool (season finished as 4th, FA cup 4R, EFL 3R and CL runner up).
VVD comes in in Jan but he is obviously a key player to replace Gomez.
| Players | Apps | Starts |
|---|---|---|
| Firmino | 54 | 47 |
| Salah | 52 | 46 |
| Mane | 44 | 43 |
| Wijnaldum | 50 | 40 |
| Lovren | 43 | 38 |
| Henderson | 41 | 37 |
| Can | 38 | 34 |
| Karius | 33 | 33 |
| Robertson | 30 | 30 |
| TAA | 33 | 30 |
| Gomez | 31 | 27 |
| VVD | 22 | 22 |
Even that team brought in 8 players, and relied on TAA as a academy player, and Lovren, Henderson and Can as existing players.
So it's still a massively updated team.
I don't think that reality should be ignored when discussing Klopp and Liverpool.