How much would it take to steal Pep? That much.
Put a price on how much it would cost us to genuinely compete for the title
- Thread starter Fortitude
- Start date
I'm stunned that so many of our fans still believe in those two utter clowns.
I think it ought to be possible with a few smart signings, say £150m. Challenging in the way Arsenal have this year can be done if all the pieces drop into place.
To be as good as City I’d say £600m over the next two summers then £300m over the two summers after that, throw in £100m for random winter signings it’s £1b over four years. After that it’s maintenance spending of £100m every year and £300m ever third or fourth year. It’s very expensive.
To be as good as City I’d say £600m over the next two summers then £300m over the two summers after that, throw in £100m for random winter signings it’s £1b over four years. After that it’s maintenance spending of £100m every year and £300m ever third or fourth year. It’s very expensive.
This is actually a myth that's pedalled by people who only noticed the 'noisy neighbour's' when Txiki and Soriano arrived. Sorriano was sacked by Joan Laporta.
The truth is below and it was the significant move that shaped Man City's structure when they brought in Brian Marwood to oversee the football side of the club. And their first league title was won with Marwood overseeing the football side of the club. The football structure at City that is still active at first team level, was put in place by Brian Marwood. And the person who is in charge of recruitment/identifying players at City is ex Man Utd youth player from the 80s, Gary Worthington.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
The difference in the 90s and 00s was those fans were factually wrong, it was assumed that United topped the spending charts because we were successful and we did tend to spend money that the club generated. However, the reality is that from the beginning of the Premier League in 1992/93 and us last winning the league in 2012/13, United were the biggest spenders in the league just three times (98/99, 01/02 and 02/03). For reference the other top spenders were Blackburn twice, Everton, Newcastle three times, Liverpool twice, Leeds, Chelsea six times and City three times.
In terms of your second paragraph, it is absolutely higher. Massively so in fact. As I said, people conveniently ignore the pre-FFP period where they spent at a frankly incredibly amount year on year which has assisted them in a FFP world. Right from the moment the owners took over they spent huge sums of money, £120m in 08/09, £110m 09/10, £150m in 10/11, just the £80m in 11/12 and £55m in 12/13, £100m in 13/14, £80m in 13/14, £150m in 15/16, £170m in 16/17, £230m in 17/18. None of this is adjusted for inflation with the overall explosion of transfer fees in the past decade. Just to be clear in the period of 08/09 to 17/18 they spent over £300m more than any club in the entire world, and that is both in terms of real spend and net spend (and also lets be real given how they are known to operate, those are just the fee's we actually know about).
So yes, while they are now managing their squad very well, their being able to do so is the fruits of their labour from spending money at such a ridiculous rate previously.
None of this alters the fact we have spent a lot of money very badly, I totally take the general point. But let's get away from this narrative that City have only spent what other clubs have because it is just not true.
Probably an additional billion if we keep on wasting money on the likes of Sancho and Antony
But that wasn't the only argument. Their argument was also that since we were the richest and biggest, we could poach the best talent across the league. We might not have had the highest net spend but we did flex our power in getting the league's best players, sometimes from rival clubs. It was seen as a shock that Shearer didn't sign for us because from around that period and until RvP with Rio and Rooney throughout, we did hold that power that generated a lot of resentment in the league rendering our achievements in the eyes of some somehow less.
That is actually a fair point about their spending before FFP which I had not consider. For me personally, when Abramovic arrived to Chelsea, I was definitely on the bandwagon and complained about the financial doping and about how Chelsea had no right to be there. Especially since they started stealing our targets by outbidding us like it was the case with Jon Obi Mikel. Ten years later though, I changed my mind and started seeing outside investment as a necessary reality to challenge the status quo in Europe. I was sick of Real and Barcelona having dibs on all the best players and kinda appreciated how PSG did to them what they used to do to everyone else. There are ethical questions and it leaves you cold no doubt, but the standard of the league has never been better with the new money generated. Pre Abramovic, we had a league that barely featured a European semi finalist, let alone champion, it was insular and played a brand football that made our teams treat Europe like it's some fearful jungle. After him, we regularly had 4 teams in the final stages of the CL and we started competing with the Reals and Barcelonas by dominating in the continent towards the end of '00s. It forced us and others to raise our game and we became the better for it.
The same happened with City, they forced the standard of the league to be higher and I can't remember a time when the PL had this many players in the top of Balon d'Or candidates as it does now. The influx of top coaches and players has contributed to a better product that can stand toe to toe with the best in the continent. It's even making them jealous. In previous years, Haaland was only going to one place. I understand the moral arguments behind it but I also resent the attitude of old money in football who if they have it their way, we'd have the same clubs competing for trophies year and year out and there would be no progress like we see in German football or like it was in English football in the '90s. Yes there is a coldness about the way City are doing it, it lacks romance, but the overall picture for me is healthier for football in the PL especially since I see their investment as merely leveling the playing, albeit in dubious ways. It's up to Europe's aristocarts to raise their game instead of conspiring and whining to justify their mismanagement and ineptitude.
As you can see from my post, it doesn't have much to do with City. I just don't see them as rivals like Liverpool or even Arsenal since the latter is who I grew up with being our main rivals. Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me and I can be less emotional about it. I see it more from the point of view of outside investment in football and old money's attitude to it. As for City, they have a lot to do to catch up with us in the big picture so it's really fine by me if they enjoy this period of success, they're a long way off.
Last edited:
When you’re his age and in his position then nowadays it does.
First of all you need owners who are just as ambition as the City owners. And once you have that in place then you have a chance. Or else it'll be a case of taking chunks out of City's era of domination, which Liverpool have shown by winning one league title.
Guardiola is a great coach but he has a big advantage on top of being a great coach, and that advantage is that he has the best car in the race. And as good as the other drivers are, they are disadvantaged by their cars in comparison. And in this race, to bring about a level playing field, a car comparable to the one Guardiola is driving needs to brought to the race. And then we'll find out how good Guardiola is and how good a driver EtH can potentially be.
Also we can't weigh things up in monetary terms. It's about weighing things up ideologically when it comes to implementing a style of play that will be developed on the training ground and then will manifest itself on match-days. But a head coach needs the tools to develop that on the training ground.
So the question for me is how long will it take for 'vertical positional play' to develop at the club with ten Hag at the helm?. And for me it's about getting rid of players who are detrimental towards that play style and replacing them with players who have the ability to elevate the play style in question. And when you buy players with a view to developing a proactive attacking play style, then the chances of developing a dominant team becomes a reality. And it becomes a reality because the whole football structure is focused on identifying or developing players for a specific method of play, which makes things a lot easier for people working on the football side of the club. You just have to see how Michael Edward's and the Liverpool recruitment team struggled pre Klopp and how they excelled when he arrived at the club.
And when you have a goalkeeper who is weak at the fundamentals of positional play with and without the ball along with a RB who can't give you a inverted fullback option or a wide attacking threat in comparison to the bench mark set domestically, then you're going to struggle. Because teams who are good at implementing proactive football with and without the ball, will have a big target to aim for with players like DDG and Wan Bissaka starting, which will also expose other weaknesses in the collective when the opponent presses us high. If your RB's best qualities only shine off the ball, then you have a problem on top of the problem standing in goal. I don't expect either to be starting games for us next season.
We need to get to a stage where we can comfortably beat teams who we're expected to beat. And when we get to a stage where we can overwhelm the so called cannon fodder, we will then be close to challenging for the title.
Guardiola has never faced a head coach with a proactive attacking approach to the game who's also backed by a ambitious owner, just as ambitious as Sheikh Mansour. And for me to make it a competitive battle, we have to disrupt City's build up play by pressing high and then exerting ourselves on the ball against them. That's how Klopp beat Guardiola and that's how you can make it competitive, as long as you have the tools.
And I've consistently mentioned that the key to controlling games is to have technically strong first phase players. GK, CBs, deeper CMs and fullbacks. And if you're weak in the first phase, it will effect the forward players due to how easily we can be pressed into errors.
Below are exerpts from Guardiola's book, and it's clear that the first phase is absolutely key for him which starts from the keeper. These are principles he's picked up from Michels/Cruyff.
Guardiola is a great coach but he has a big advantage on top of being a great coach, and that advantage is that he has the best car in the race. And as good as the other drivers are, they are disadvantaged by their cars in comparison. And in this race, to bring about a level playing field, a car comparable to the one Guardiola is driving needs to brought to the race. And then we'll find out how good Guardiola is and how good a driver EtH can potentially be.
Also we can't weigh things up in monetary terms. It's about weighing things up ideologically when it comes to implementing a style of play that will be developed on the training ground and then will manifest itself on match-days. But a head coach needs the tools to develop that on the training ground.
So the question for me is how long will it take for 'vertical positional play' to develop at the club with ten Hag at the helm?. And for me it's about getting rid of players who are detrimental towards that play style and replacing them with players who have the ability to elevate the play style in question. And when you buy players with a view to developing a proactive attacking play style, then the chances of developing a dominant team becomes a reality. And it becomes a reality because the whole football structure is focused on identifying or developing players for a specific method of play, which makes things a lot easier for people working on the football side of the club. You just have to see how Michael Edward's and the Liverpool recruitment team struggled pre Klopp and how they excelled when he arrived at the club.
And when you have a goalkeeper who is weak at the fundamentals of positional play with and without the ball along with a RB who can't give you a inverted fullback option or a wide attacking threat in comparison to the bench mark set domestically, then you're going to struggle. Because teams who are good at implementing proactive football with and without the ball, will have a big target to aim for with players like DDG and Wan Bissaka starting, which will also expose other weaknesses in the collective when the opponent presses us high. If your RB's best qualities only shine off the ball, then you have a problem on top of the problem standing in goal. I don't expect either to be starting games for us next season.
We need to get to a stage where we can comfortably beat teams who we're expected to beat. And when we get to a stage where we can overwhelm the so called cannon fodder, we will then be close to challenging for the title.
Guardiola has never faced a head coach with a proactive attacking approach to the game who's also backed by a ambitious owner, just as ambitious as Sheikh Mansour. And for me to make it a competitive battle, we have to disrupt City's build up play by pressing high and then exerting ourselves on the ball against them. That's how Klopp beat Guardiola and that's how you can make it competitive, as long as you have the tools.
And I've consistently mentioned that the key to controlling games is to have technically strong first phase players. GK, CBs, deeper CMs and fullbacks. And if you're weak in the first phase, it will effect the forward players due to how easily we can be pressed into errors.
Below are exerpts from Guardiola's book, and it's clear that the first phase is absolutely key for him which starts from the keeper. These are principles he's picked up from Michels/Cruyff.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Last edited:
But we’ve actually all seen them perform brilliantly in the past. The problem is that they haven’t for the last two seasons.
Brilliant post!
“And I've consistently mentioned that the key to controlling games is to have technically strong first phase players. GK, CBs, deeper CMs and fullbacks. And if you're weak in the first phase, it will effect the forward players due to how easily we can be pressed into errors.”
We need to stop blaming every else except the forwards for the shit performances of our forwards. If we really want to dig ourselves out if the hole, we have to hold underperforming players accountable. Our forwards have been poor this season, with the exception of Rashford.
We need to stop blaming every else except the forwards for the shit performances of our forwards. If we really want to dig ourselves out if the hole, we have to hold underperforming players accountable. Our forwards have been poor this season, with the exception of Rashford.
All we need is a better scouting team who can help us unearth those unpolished gems that have a high ceiling. I’m confident ETH can get the the best out of them.
How many of those technically strong first phase players can we realistically get this summer
If Liverpool can challenge City, and Arsenal to some extent with their unexpected 2/3 of a campaign, we should minimally strive for that too. Better planning, scouting, integration, coaching would be first steps before the money equation
it’s about smart spending. Really don’t need to spend that much2 billion pounds. Building a good team and coaching staff overnight is not cheap. Paying their salaries ain't cheap either. Bribing the FA and referees for favourable schedules and referee calls during a match also isn't cheap. VAR ain't gonna turn a blind eye for nothing.
There's no price. ETH just needs to buy players who fit the profile of his project and create a winning ethos.
Probably 250m at least.
Kim - 45m
Rabiot - free
Ramos/Kane/Osimhen - 80-110m
Raya - 30m
le Fee - 40m/caicedo 80m
Kim - 45m
Rabiot - free
Ramos/Kane/Osimhen - 80-110m
Raya - 30m
le Fee - 40m/caicedo 80m
The issue with “what price?” Is, for example last year we could have got Enzo, Alvarez for 30m combined.. Haaland and Bellingham for combined £10m a couple years before.
There’s more to it than the cost. Mad that many on here have identified gems in the past with our limited knowledge. There are scouts literally paid for this..
Personally, I think fans are a bit too obsessed with transfers and financials. I prefer putting trust in the club and manager to sort those things out. I have a pretty good vibe that ETH will buy the players he wants to move us up into PL and CL contention next year.
Yeah fair point. You don’t need world class or potentially WC in ever position. You need 2/3 game changers and a solid team alongside. The rumoured ETH obsession with Dutch/eredivisie/former players bothers me slightly though.
Think we need to be looking to build a world beating team. Our biggest issue at present is we only have one 20+ goals player. Need another 2 imo.
That is pretty much what's needed,however you could also make cases for RB and backup ST
Haaland one was a shocker,Ole basically said I have a gem here at Molde who you simply have to sign but we stupidly ignored him
Goalkeeper - costa 70mil
Striker kane/Osimhen -120mil
Young striker - Rasmus or Ferguson - 60mil.
Bruno cover/rotation - Maddison 40mil
Amad diallo back - free
Midfielder - Caicedo 80mil
Rabiot - free
Right back - pavard 40mil
Centre back - Kim 50mil
Just get rid of deadwood and replace deadwood with these guys. This is the levels these days especially with city having two starting 11s
That’s 460mil and puts us closer anyway.
Striker kane/Osimhen -120mil
Young striker - Rasmus or Ferguson - 60mil.
Bruno cover/rotation - Maddison 40mil
Amad diallo back - free
Midfielder - Caicedo 80mil
Rabiot - free
Right back - pavard 40mil
Centre back - Kim 50mil
Just get rid of deadwood and replace deadwood with these guys. This is the levels these days especially with city having two starting 11s
That’s 460mil and puts us closer anyway.
Maybe cut that list in half for this summer,so which ones are essential and which can we put off until next couple of windows
460mil spend and we don't even address our issues in midfield and RB position . It's quite a underwhelming use of funds .
That wasn’t the question though? But ok if it just meant this summer…
Kane
Rasmus
Caicedo
Rabiot
Kim
280mil
I disagree
GK - £60m
CF - £100m
CM - £80m
RB - £40m
Backup CM - £30m
Backup CB - £40m
If all those were ticked in one window I would definitely back us to compete on all fronts.
So £350m
CF - £100m
CM - £80m
RB - £40m
Backup CM - £30m
Backup CB - £40m
If all those were ticked in one window I would definitely back us to compete on all fronts.
So £350m
With our spending track record we would need about 1 billion. You just know most will be duds and shining star of the team would end up being an academy lad.
Past spending went wrong no doubt but Ten Haag has mostly got it right.
Competing for this title isn’t easy. It’s city’s to lose no matter who we bring in, they are the best team on the planet and have 22 players who can be changed without any drop in quality. Having said that I think we’d at least get back to the top table if we brought in Kane, Kim, Bellingham or De Jong. I do think that would make that difference.
Competing for this title isn’t easy. It’s city’s to lose no matter who we bring in, they are the best team on the planet and have 22 players who can be changed without any drop in quality. Having said that I think we’d at least get back to the top table if we brought in Kane, Kim, Bellingham or De Jong. I do think that would make that difference.
Yes, this is the point. City did spend huge amounts at times and over a long period outspent nearly everyone. That’s why I posted above that £1b over the next four years would be the ballpark (taking transfer inflation into account, that’s not really different to what City were spending).
You have to spend the money wisely but barring a miracle you probably do have to spend it.
£200m to sort out the first team 11, like a quality striker etc.
Then another £150m to sort the bench out.
The difference between us and City is that they have £60m players warming the bench up. They can just rotate their first 11 with another first 11, which means they can keep a high level up and keep freshness in the squad.
We don't have the depth to do that. We bring on Elanga, Fred or Weghorst and our first 11 performance drops off a cliff. That then forces us to play the first 11 too much which results in fatigue.
So for me we need £350m+
Then another £150m to sort the bench out.
The difference between us and City is that they have £60m players warming the bench up. They can just rotate their first 11 with another first 11, which means they can keep a high level up and keep freshness in the squad.
We don't have the depth to do that. We bring on Elanga, Fred or Weghorst and our first 11 performance drops off a cliff. That then forces us to play the first 11 too much which results in fatigue.
So for me we need £350m+
How do you put a price on this?! We need so much 
I think to compete with City we need:
A new starting GK
A new starting RB
A CB close enough to Varanes level to compete with him for a starting spot as we know his body won't hold for a full season
ETH seems to want a left footed CB so either quality cover for Martinez or for Shaw at LB as Shaw has looked very good generally when moved inside (think Malacia will get there but not ready yet)
A midfielder capable of doing a good Casemiro impression for when he's suspended for having the audacity to exist
A starting midfielder that can progress the ball and defend
Will get shot down for this but a number 10/midfield creator that doesn't give the ball away as often as Bruno
A top draw CF
Another quality CF as cover
But if we have a freak season with no injuries, suspensions, everybody playing their best football etc I think we could have a real go with:
A new GK, new RB, Cas partner and a world class striker - this could be doable this summer
I think to compete with City we need:
A new starting GK
A new starting RB
A CB close enough to Varanes level to compete with him for a starting spot as we know his body won't hold for a full season
ETH seems to want a left footed CB so either quality cover for Martinez or for Shaw at LB as Shaw has looked very good generally when moved inside (think Malacia will get there but not ready yet)
A midfielder capable of doing a good Casemiro impression for when he's suspended for having the audacity to exist
A starting midfielder that can progress the ball and defend
Will get shot down for this but a number 10/midfield creator that doesn't give the ball away as often as Bruno
A top draw CF
Another quality CF as cover
But if we have a freak season with no injuries, suspensions, everybody playing their best football etc I think we could have a real go with:
A new GK, new RB, Cas partner and a world class striker - this could be doable this summer
The most important thing in challenging consistently with them is closing the gap with our best players.
People might not like it but KDB and Haaland are so much better than Bruno and Rashford, that we can never compete as long as we have those two against theirs.
The team that last competed with City consistently was Liverpool and they had Salah and Mane who could go toe to toe with City's best players at the time.
We can buy a whole bunch of players but as long as we have Rashford and Bruno leading us I don't believe we'll be winning big trophies. Not because they are bad players but they aren't of the required quality. We need new stars first of all then we need to build around those players and I think that costs us £500m.
Think of how much closer we'd be to City if we had KDB and Haaland and they had Bruno and Rashford. You go as your top players go for the elite teams. Benzema and Vini showed that last year as well as countless other examples of successful teams over the decade.
People might not like it but KDB and Haaland are so much better than Bruno and Rashford, that we can never compete as long as we have those two against theirs.
The team that last competed with City consistently was Liverpool and they had Salah and Mane who could go toe to toe with City's best players at the time.
We can buy a whole bunch of players but as long as we have Rashford and Bruno leading us I don't believe we'll be winning big trophies. Not because they are bad players but they aren't of the required quality. We need new stars first of all then we need to build around those players and I think that costs us £500m.
Think of how much closer we'd be to City if we had KDB and Haaland and they had Bruno and Rashford. You go as your top players go for the elite teams. Benzema and Vini showed that last year as well as countless other examples of successful teams over the decade.
These are fair and vaild references and we still would of paid more than the reported fees for Enzo and Alveraz but would of worked out a lot cheaper if we acted earlier when prompted.
I don't think we never stood a chance with Haaland at any price due to his old man. Caicedo annoyed me hugely at the time when he was available at that price, huge mistake.
We are incompetent there are no excuses and with paying over the odds it's going to take a massive overhaul and redirection to remedy that. With Qatari ownership, surely the utd tax increases?
I don't think we have to buy our way forward ultimately but for the immediate future, yes, at least two more transfer windows to remain competitive and utilise the squad better whilst the club restructure in the process by adopting a similar recruitment model like Brighton and the like.
I think what a lot of people are missing is we don’t really need a better team than City. We just need a better team than the other 18 teams in the league. We’re not that far away from that on paper, we just need these feckers to find some backbone and turn up every week rather than just when they feel like it. £150m spent well on the 3 glaring holes (ST, CM & GK) in the squad would be enough for a decent challenge, the rest is then on luck, Ten Hag, the coaching team and the players themselves.
Yeah, i was just being facetious.
Agreed, we do need smart spending, but that's also a problem. It's subjective. One person's smart is another person's stupid. So lots of ifs, else and buts. We'll only know after the fact. I'm not hopeful these days. It is dangerous to hope for hope has forsaken these lands. I'll just wait and see what happens.
Yeah but if you spend smart most of your signings are moneyball signings and happen before someone is worth 80 million. So if it’s a miss, it’s a miss of 25-35, not 80-100
-Training ground cost
-Cost to employ genuine best-in-class technical people
-A good structural change of 15 members of the squad via the academy and signings
A minimum of 5 years and another billion quid we've already generated and spent i'd imagine, at which point Pep will have revolutionized the 2 man defence system with 3 strikers.
-Cost to employ genuine best-in-class technical people
-A good structural change of 15 members of the squad via the academy and signings
A minimum of 5 years and another billion quid we've already generated and spent i'd imagine, at which point Pep will have revolutionized the 2 man defence system with 3 strikers.