Qatar or Ineos - which owners would you prefer? | Vote now Private

Which owners would you prefer?

  • Qatar

    Votes: 961 62.8%
  • Ineos

    Votes: 570 37.2%

  • Total voters
    1,531
  • Poll closed .

Enigma_87

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1. Getting State aids isnot being state owned; it is reprehensible and they have been punished for it, but you are conflating 2 distinct things
2. The Franco stuff has been pushed as a narrative through ignorance and Barça fans agenda; they were a great team, they were in Madrid and represented what Franco wanted of Spain, so he used the club as a PR tool, but that's about it; it's wildly exaggerated and inaccurate to say anything else, and hurtful for Real Madrid fans
1. I said close to state owned as you get. In 2001 Real received 480m EUR when they "reclassified" their training ground that was used to pay off the debt. You can calculate the inflation and compared to todays data it is more than a billion that was used to save the club at the time. They consistently receive financial injections, tax reliefs and the lion share of TV rights along with Barca. It is not an isolated case and the state won't allow the club to go in receivership like Rangers for example. The state also bat an eyelid time and time again allowing Barca to spend more than billion of funds that they didn't have to maintain their team and expenditures. So yeah it's not official per say, but they are as close you can get when you consider modern times.
2. There are many many reports of the pressure that was implied on Basque and Catalan teams during his regime but I guess this is topic for another convo.
 

Zen86

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I don’t really want either. I personally think SJR will be more of the same as what we have now, and I think state ownership has killed the game and don’t agree with it on any level.

The only thing that would get any kind of positivity from me is some form of fan ownership model, but we know that isn’t happening.
 

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1. I said close to state owned as you get. In 2001 Real received 480m EUR when they "reclassified" their training ground that was used to pay off the debt. You can calculate the inflation and compared to todays data it is more than a billion that was used to save the club at the time. They consistently receive financial injections, tax reliefs and the lion share of TV rights along with Barca. It is not an isolated case and the state won't allow the club to go in receivership like Rangers for example. The state also bat an eyelid time and time again allowing Barca to spend more than billion of funds that they didn't have to maintain their team and expenditures. So yeah it's not official per say, but they are as close you can get when you consider modern times.
2. There are many many reports of the pressure that was implied on Basque and Catalan teams during his regime but I guess this is topic for another convo.
It's not really a topic for another convo as you brought it up and it's inaccurate. There are many incredibly well sourced articles that explain that beyond a couple of incidents, which are actually hard to totally substantiate, there was very little impact from Franco or his regime. The short version is that Real was already a great club, which attracted Franco from a PR perspective, rather than having been made great by Franco.

It's a jib used as easy point scoring in online chat but it's inaccurate and it's hurtful.
 

stevoc

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If you want to boil things down to binary choices then it defeats the purpose of any discussion. That's why you find all sorts of rationalisation... on both sides.

Both sides are bad choices. It's pointless trying to elevate one over the other.
Perhaps, it's Qatar though.

Qatar does way more damage to environment every year being the world's largest exporter of natural Gas and having the worst carbon footprint of any country on the planet. So maybe it's a bit of a moot point to speak about INEOS buying United for the purpose of Greenwashing.

Both are bad choices though I agree. In an ideal world I wouldn't want either to own United.
 

Dan_F

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I know you prefer rumour, speculation and downright lies to the truth, but let me educate you with some facts:

Sheikh Mansour:
- Current Deputy PM of UAE
- Current chairman of the national bank
- Current Vice Chair of the sovereign wealth fund
- Brother of the Ruler of Abu Dhabi

Sheikh Jassim:
- Never held any political role
- Never held any role in the national bank
- Never held any role in the SWF
- Not in the immediate family of the Emir of Qatar

I expect you'll try to muddy the waters by bringing HBJ into it, but note that unlike Mansour it's been over a decade since he had any state role

Now if you can't see the difference then there is no hope for any reasonable discussion with you

More importantly it's makes little difference to the main point I was making about 'hollow' success
Jassim is the chairman of Qatar Islamic Bank. It’s biggest shareholder is the QIA, which is state funded.

He grew up with the Emir. Attended the same school in the UK. Not being direct family is red herring.

The bottom line is that both have plausible deniability due to using a private investment fund for their purchase. You’re using the exact same defence for Jassim as City fans do for Mansour.
 

Lost bear

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Perhaps, it's Qatar though.

Qatar does way more damage to environment every year being the world's largest exporter of natural Gas and having the worst carbon footprint of any country on the planet. So maybe it's a bit of a moot point to speak about INEOS buying United for the purpose of Greenwashing.

Both are bad choices though I agree. In an ideal world I wouldn't want either to own United.
Yes, it's a real Hobson's choice. I guess in reality we have to evaluate which is worse and which least bad, and then measure them against the appalling current owners. What we really need is a decent but extremely rich new owner who loves football and loves Utd. Sadly, I am not aware of any such figure actually existing. That's why I was saying yesterday that this is way bigger than football. It's the current, and trully awful, condition of political and economic power on planet earth. Read it and weep.
 

stevoc

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Jassim is the chairman of Qatar Islamic Bank. It’s biggest shareholder is the QIA, which is state funded.

He grew up with the Emir. Attended the same school in the UK. Not being direct family is red herring.

The bottom line is that both have plausible deniability due to using a private investment fund for their purchase. You’re using the exact same defence for Jassim as City fans do for Mansour.
That's why Jassim is the perfect front man for this State Bid...

...allegedly.
 

Enigma_87

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It's not really a topic for another convo as you brought it up and it's inaccurate. There are many incredibly well sourced articles that explain that beyond a couple of incidents, which are actually hard to totally substantiate, there was very little impact from Franco or his regime. The short version is that Real was already a great club, which attracted Franco from a PR perspective, rather than having been made great by Franco.

It's a jib used as easy point scoring in online chat but it's inaccurate and it's hurtful.
Оk, just as a couple of points, there are many examples for that:
https://www.goal.com/en/news/genera...spain-establishment/fcoqldp8h2bb1841o2rspmuhe

what about the first point though? Have they not been backed time and time again financially? Or again those are "incidents"?
 

Rood

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Jassim is the chairman of Qatar Islamic Bank. It’s biggest shareholder is the QIA, which is state funded.

He grew up with the Emir. Attended the same school in the UK. Not being direct family is red herring.

The bottom line is that both have plausible deniability due to using a private investment fund for their purchase. You’re using the exact same defence for Jassim as City fans do for Mansour.
At least you are bringing some facts now so thats progress at least !

Anyway given his various official state roles, there is no possible deniability for Sheikh Mansour - I've never met a City fan (and unfortunately I know several) who claims they are anything other than a state club. I've not met many (there are a few) who are bothered about this fact either.
 

Rightnr

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I originally voted Qatar as I was under the impression (naively) that this would be completely separate from state funding and that Jim was going to keep the Glazers involved, but looking into in in more detail it clearly is some kind of shadow deal, especially now the PSG fella is involved somehow. I also think that Jim Ratcliffe and INEOS bid would be less "murky" going forwards as well, so if i could, I'd change my vote.
How is the PSG 'fella' involved when all the information that has come out from journalists and himself is that he doesn't want to have anything to do with this?

Or this is just some made-up logic again that I will never comprehend?
 

roonster09

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Also note that the documentation for the ninety two foundation directly states that it can draw funding from the state…but they’ve promised it isn’t for this bid.
So in a way its more or less state funded, at least there is a high possibility.

So they can just draw the fund and use it for infrastructure or any other activities related to the club post this bid?
 

Dan_F

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At least you are bringing some facts now so thats progress at least !

Anyway given his various official state roles, there is no possible deniability for Sheikh Mansour - I've never met a City fan (and unfortunately I know several) who claims they are anything other than a state club. I've not met many (there are a few) who are bothered about this fact either.
Jesus. Might be worth toning down the condescending tone of your posts considering which side of the argument you’re on, and how you presented your facts in the previous post.

Facts are hard to come by given the nature of the topic and that obviously gives you an easy out when justifying your choices. There’s plenty of city fans online that use this argument but you’re lucky if you haven’t come across them!
 

Dan_F

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So in a way its more or less state funded, at least there is a high possibility.

So they can just draw the fund and use it for infrastructure or any other activities related to the club post this bid?
Essentially. Of course they would need to stick to FFP for transfers anyway, but stadium renovations and the money to buy the club itself can be drawn from the state.

I wish I kept the source of that info as I don’t remember which podcast I was listening to when they spoke about it. I’m sure Rood will be along any second refuting it unless I can provide documentation.
 

KikiDaKats

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Also note that the documentation for the ninety two foundation directly states that it can draw funding from the state…but they’ve promised it isn’t for this bid.
This is new information to me. Link available online by any chance?
 

Dan_F

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Not true. City have been paying managers and players through tax evasion schemes in the UAE for fabricated consultancy work. We cannot compete when their outlay is known to be at least double what has been declared.
That’s fair. Wouldn’t surprise me. I reckon we’ve paid off loads of money to managers, coaching staff to sack them in that time period though.

I’ll stand by my point that if we didn’t have Woodward and the Glazers were clever enough to structure the club for Pep, we could be dominating similarly to City, without any cheating.
 

pocco

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I know you prefer rumour, speculation and downright lies to the truth, but let me educate you with some facts:

Sheikh Mansour:
- Current Deputy PM of UAE
- Current chairman of the national bank
- Current Vice Chair of the sovereign wealth fund
- Brother of the Ruler of Abu Dhabi

Sheikh Jassim:
- Never held any political role
- Never held any role in the national bank (QNB)
- Never held any role in the SWF (QIA)
- Not in the immediate family of the Emir of Qatar

I expect you'll try to muddy the waters by bringing HBJ into it, but note that unlike Mansour it's been over a decade since he had any state role

Now if you can't see the difference then there is no hope for any reasonable discussion with you

More importantly it's makes little difference to the main point I was making about 'hollow' success
Well yeah, it is his dad afterall and he was all of those things. You're being a bit disingenuous with you're saying, either naively or by design.
 

wolvored

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How is the PSG 'fella' involved when all the information that has come out from journalists and himself is that he doesn't want to have anything to do with this?

Or this is just some made-up logic again that I will never comprehend?
Glad I read your post, was just going to say the same thing.
 

Rood

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Also note that the documentation for the ninety two foundation directly states that it can draw funding from the state…but they’ve promised it isn’t for this bid.
More baseless speculation

I have never seen or heard anything about this mythical document - I'm sure if it existed in public domain the media would be all over it


Well yeah, it is his dad afterall and he was all of those things. You're being a bit disingenuous with you're saying, either naively or by design.
It's more than a decade ago compared to Mansour who held these roles when he bought City and still does today - can't you see the difference?

If exPM David Cameron buys Everton, is that state owned?

Man City are obviously state owned, they barely even try to hide it so not sure why this is even a discussion
 

Bert_

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I know you prefer rumour, speculation and downright lies to the truth, but let me educate you with some facts:

Sheikh Mansour:
- Current Deputy PM of UAE
- Current chairman of the national bank
- Current Vice Chair of the sovereign wealth fund
- Brother of the Ruler of Abu Dhabi

Sheikh Jassim:
- Never held any political role
- Never held any role in the national bank (QNB)
- Never held any role in the SWF (QIA)
- Not in the immediate family of the Emir of Qatar

I expect you'll try to muddy the waters by bringing HBJ into it, but note that unlike Mansour it's been over a decade since he had any state role

Now if you can't see the difference then there is no hope for any reasonable discussion with you

More importantly it's makes little difference to the main point I was making about 'hollow' success
Come on man. Do you really think this guy has £5-6 billion in cash on hand to buy a football club? Let alone the additional billions promised in investment?

He's a front for a state bid.
 

Big Ben Foster

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More baseless speculation

I have never seen or heard anything about this mythical document - I'm sure if it existed in public domain the media would be all over it




It's more than a decade ago compared to Mansour who held these roles when he bought City and still does today - can't you see the difference?

If exPM David Cameron buys Everton, is that state owned?

Man City are obviously state owned, they barely even try to hide it so not sure why this is even a discussion
I don't think Mansour came in officially until after the takeover was completed. Al-Fahim was their frontman up until that point.
 

Dan_F

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This is new information to me. Link available online by any chance?
More baseless speculation

I have never seen or heard anything about this mythical document - I'm sure if it existed in public domain the media would be all over it
I thought I’d heard it on a podcast, but I listen to a lot, and quite frankly it’s not going to make a difference to my view so I don’t have an interest in listening back to 50 hours worth.

I assumed it was similar to private companies in the UK where lots information has to be made public, but I could have been wrong.

Happy to withdraw it, as I don’t think anything else I’ve said has been baseless at all.
 

BuzzKillington

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I don’t really want either. I personally think SJR will be more of the same as what we have now, and I think state ownership has killed the game and don’t agree with it on any level.

The only thing that would get any kind of positivity from me is some form of fan ownership model, but we know that isn’t happening.
I’m pretty much this too. INEOS is the least worst option of the two for me, but it’s still Giant Douche vs Turd Sandwich.
 

Mike Oxard

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Has to be Ineos if the fans are not to be exposed as hypocritical charlatans‍♂
 

Water Melon

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Come on man. Do you really think this guy has £5-6 billion in cash on hand to buy a football club? Let alone the additional billions promised in investment?

He's a front for a state bid.
Any facts for such a bald statement or is it your imagination? The guy's father has enough money to buy United. The banks in Qatar could lend money at a much lower rate than banks in US and EU. Could not his father give his son money to invest? I am yet to see a single solid proof of this being a state ownership.
 

KikiDaKats

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I thought I’d heard it on a podcast, but I listen to a lot, and quite frankly it’s not going to make a difference to my view so I don’t have an interest in listening back to 50 hours worth.

I assumed it was similar to private companies in the UK where lots information has to be made public, but I could have been wrong.

Happy to withdraw it, as I don’t think anything else I’ve said has been baseless at all.
No I was just asking..
 

Dan_F

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No I was just asking..
I was more responding to Rood, but thought I’d reply to you also, so you saw it.

I think this thread will have to go on mute along with the main takeover one. I can’t deal with the same repetitive stuff.
 

Bert_

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Any facts for such a bald statement or is it your imagination? The guy's father has enough money to buy United. The banks in Qatar could lend money at a much lower rate than banks in US and EU. Could not his father give his son money to invest? I am yet to see a single solid proof of this being a state ownership.
How much money does his father have? Enough to spend £5-6 billion in a single transaction? If not then he his buying the club with debt. What's the difference between Ineos or Jasim then?
 

stevoc

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How much money does his father have? Enough to spend £5-6 billion in a single transaction? If not then he his buying the club with debt. What's the difference between Ineos or Jasim then?
It's very doubtful that he is that wealthy or that HBJ would be bank rolling the entire thing himself.
 

Rood

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How much money does his father have? Enough to spend £5-6 billion in a single transaction? If not then he his buying the club with debt. What's the difference between Ineos or Jasim then?
Yes

Jassim has committed to a debt free takeover - Jim has not. Thats the major difference and I assume the biggest reason that votes in this poll go for the Qatari option.
 

ROFLUTION

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Any facts for such a bald statement or is it your imagination? The guy's father has enough money to buy United. The banks in Qatar could lend money at a much lower rate than banks in US and EU. Could not his father give his son money to invest? I am yet to see a single solid proof of this being a state ownership.
You can't possibly prove it, you know that as well and that's why you think it's a good argument. And why can't you? Because Qatar is such a non-transparent country where very few people decide everything, including this.

You can look at the obvious fact that this guy somehow has 5-6 billion to spend. How does he get that? From his father/brother possibly? Who controls what? The state.

To me it's very strange to think that Jassim "just gets money from his father" (It's his brother now as he's the emir) to use for a club for fun. Of course there's some sort of "yes/no-making" in this and "what does Qatar get out of this?". The state Qatar don't just throw 7-8 big ones after a project for fun.

For 7-8 billion you could do other projects that would benefit Qatar. Just the sheer size of the amount is a testiment that this is a state-backed/state-approved bid. It's not like they don't talk to each other. His littlebrother is the emir - it's completely close-knitted and decisions in Qatar have always been. If that doesn't smell like state-backed then I don't know what it does. All other Premier League clubs want this examined too, which is a testiment to this. Jassim also stepped down as heir of Emir of Qatar in favor of his brother - it's very tightly knitted with business and family in Qatar. But of course you can't prove this is a state-backed bid 100% unless you actually see leaks from Qatar, which would require hacking/leaks as we see with City (who we all know is statebacked). So your argument is probably good on paper, but everyone with two braincells can see that this smells of a state-backed bid.
 

Water Melon

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You can't possibly prove it, you know that as well and that's why you think it's a good argument. And why can't you? Because Qatar is such a non-transparent country where very few people decide everything, including this.

You can look at the obvious fact that this guy somehow has 5-6 billion to spend. How does he get that? From his father/brother possibly? Who controls what? The state.

To me it's very strange to think that Jassim "just gets money from his father" (It's his brother now as he's the emir) to use for a club for fun. Of course there's some sort of "yes/no-making" in this and "what does Qatar get out of this?". The state Qatar don't just throw 7-8 big ones after a project for fun.

For 7-8 billion you could do other projects that would benefit Qatar. Just the sheer size of the amount is a testiment that this is a state-backed/state-approved bid. It's not like they don't talk to each other. His littlebrother is the emir - it's completely close-knitted and decisions in Qatar have always been. If that doesn't smell like state-backed then I don't know what it does. All other Premier League clubs want this examined too, which is a testiment to this. Jassim also stepped down as heir of Emir of Qatar in favor of his brother - it's very tightly knitted with business and family in Qatar. But of course you can't prove this is a state-backed bid 100% unless you actually see leaks from Qatar, which would require hacking/leaks as we see with City (who we all know is statebacked). So your argument is probably good on paper, but everyone with two braincells can see that this smells of a state-backed bid.
Complete and utter nonsense. First and foremost, stop with your insults. I most probably have more braincells and neuron connections than you do. So shove that up your butthole.
Now be very clear who is the emir of Qatar now? How does he relate to Jassim exactly?

Now do you get to decide what those people do with their money? It is up to them whether to buy United or invest in Qatar. They are trying to buy one of the most decorated clubs in the world, which, with the right investment, could increase in its value. All other premier league clubs may want whatever they want, but they need to be consistent. They did nothing when Chelsea and City were doped to their gills. I am sure Jassim, if he wins, will do it via 9-2 foundation which is a group of private businessmen and he will have no problem to pass the due diligence procedures.

So, basically, you have zero proof of this being a state backed bid, zilch. You are only posting your assumptions having sweet fook all of real knowledge about Qatar.
 

Rood

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@ROFLUTION no idea where you get this from, complete lies of course

Sheikh Jassim is not the brother of the Emir, they are not closely related at all - distant cousins perhaps
 

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Complete and utter nonsense. First and foremost, stop with your insults. I most probably have more braincells and neuron connections than you do. So shove that up your butthole.
Now be very clear who is the emir of Qatar now? How does he relate to Jassim exactly?

Now do you get to decide what those people do with their money? It is up to them whether to buy United or invest in Qatar. They are trying to buy one of the most decorated clubs in the world, which, with the right investment, could increase in its value. All other premier league clubs may want whatever they want, but they need to be consistent. They did nothing when Chelsea and City were doped to their gills. I am sure Jassim, if he wins, will do it via 9-2 foundation which is a group of private businessmen and he will have no problem to pass the due diligence procedures.

So, basically, you have zero proof of this being a state backed bid, zilch. You are only posting your assumptions having sweet fook all of real knowledge about Qatar.
It's not the size of the orchestra, but the quality of the symphony
 

ROFLUTION

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Complete and utter nonsense. First and foremost, stop with your insults. I most probably have more braincells and neuron connections than you do. So shove that up your butthole.
Now be very clear who is the emir of Qatar now? How does he relate to Jassim exactly?
Now do you get to decide what those people do with their money? It is up to them whether to buy United or invest in Qatar. They are trying to buy one of the most decorated clubs in the world, which, with the right investment, could increase in its value. All other premier league clubs may want whatever they want, but they need to be consistent. They did nothing when Chelsea and City were doped to their gills. I am sure Jassim, if he wins, will do it via 9-2 foundation which is a group of private businessmen and he will have no problem to pass the due diligence procedures.

So, basically, you have zero proof of this being a state backed bid, zilch. You are only posting your assumptions having sweet fook all of real knowledge about Qatar.
@ROFLUTION no idea where you get this from, complete lies of course

Sheikh Jassim is not the brother of the Emir, they are not closely related at all - distant cousins perhaps
Sorry, it seems I've been misinformed by reading this source, but it was referring to the other Jassim Al Thani of Qatar which the source I read also had misunderstood. I realize now that this is not the brother, but he's a distant cousin.

Jassim bin Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani is the older brother to Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, the Emir of Qatar and is the third son of Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani the former Emir. Jassim was the heir apparent to his father, being the first child of his second wife, but abdicated his position as Crown Prince in 2003 in favour of his younger brother.
Sorry to @Water Melon too but my points overall still stands: Qatar is an extremely non-transparent country where you only get to use this big amount of money if it doesn't go against the family with what is "OK" for the state to use money for. Let's be real, Sheikh Jassim would never be accepted to use 7-8 billions on stupid stuff.

To continue the debate with @Water Melon - You just think that because you can't prove he's a front for the state of Qatar, then it's a great argument in favor of Qatar-ownership? Qatar is run within a royal family with no transparency. Neither were there any transparency around the World Cup with Qatar. Migrant workers slaving to death to host some football games - is this what football is worth? Can we just say that Sheikh Jassim has nothing to do with this at all and that his money comes from a different pot? (because they're inherited by his father?)

Is this take over necessary for Manchester United? We already sit as one of the biggest clubs with the biggest history, they're no need to get in bed with slimy people like this. The World Cup was known for going to Qatar because of corruption. This is the country who might run United now, and yet with all their history of bribing EU-officials and bribing their way to getting a World Cup, we should just believe that this is not a state-backed/state approved bid? Do people just believe that these guys will run United in a clean way when corruption is in the veins of the history of the country? It could just as well end up in 115 charges for cheating like City too. Why would you teint a great club like United like that? Because of promises of a new stadium and Mbappe? Not for me, Jeff.

And you will continue to bang on about how you can't prove this is a state-backed bid, although he still as a cousin has inherited all his money from statemoney from his father. It's the easiest argument in the World and I agree - you can't officially because Qatar is such a non transparent country. But everyone with eyes can see there's no transparency with Qatar as a state and that this is a state-backed bid due to the size of money and close connections between the people who run Qatar.
 

Rood

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Can we just say that Sheikh Jassim has nothing to do with this at all and that his money comes from a different pot? (because they're inherited by his father?)
Yes and I'll be totally honest and say that even if it's eventually proven that it comes from the state, I would still probably choose the Qatari bid as it seems to be the best option for the future health of my football club

Is this take over necessary for Manchester United?
Yes because the Glazers have mismanaged us for many years so we need to clear the debt and rebuild the stadium

After that we also need the best footballing people in the boardroom to make the right decisions

There is no worry about cheating like City because we simply don't need to, we make more than enough money already